General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsK&R if You Agree with Krugman & Howard Dean on the "Fiscal Cliff"
Let's Not Make a Deal
Paul Krugman, New York Times
Howard Dean: Let's Drive Over the Fiscal Cliff
The "Fiscal Cliff" Hoax
Time for Change, Democratic Underground
A 'Grand Bargain' on the Fiscal Cliff Could Be a Grand Betrayal
Robert L. Borasage, Institute for America's Future
The Nation, December 3, 2012
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)FarPoint
(12,368 posts)Yes!
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Lugnut
(9,791 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)Flashmann
(2,140 posts)Enthusiastically.........
Over the cliff and down the RWs throat,til they CHOKE!!!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Overseas
(12,121 posts)Street trades.
The Too Big To Fail group are also Too Big To Ignore Our Peril and not contribute more.
JHB
(37,160 posts)rocktivity
(44,576 posts)now describing it as a fiscal "curb."
rocktivity
louis c
(8,652 posts)Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)Howard Dean thinks it's the best idea floating around. Paul Krugman thinks it's not too bad, and is good enough to be a fallback position, so that President Obama can say "OK, if you don't go for my proposal, we'll just do nothing and implement the 'cliff', and then carry on talking". Krugman also thinks it will be contractionary, because it implements austerity measures, which isn't what he wants, ideally.
Krugman:
Nobody wants to see that happen. Yet it may happen all the same, and Mr. Obama has to be willing to let it happen if necessary.
Why? Because Republicans are trying, for the third time since he took office, to use economic blackmail to achieve a goal they lack the votes to achieve through the normal legislative process. In particular, they want to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, even though the nation cant afford to make those tax cuts permanent and the public believes that taxes on the rich should go up and theyre threatening to block any deal on anything else unless they get their way. So they are, in effect, threatening to tank the economy unless their demands are met.
...
Its worth pointing out that the fiscal cliff isnt really a cliff. Its not like the debt-ceiling confrontation, where terrible things might well have happened right away if the deadline had been missed. This time, nothing very bad will happen to the economy if agreement isnt reached until a few weeks or even a few months into 2013. So theres time to bargain.
Howard Dean:
SutaUvaca
(482 posts)smokey nj
(43,853 posts)forestpath
(3,102 posts)SoapBox
(18,791 posts)I agree.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)... I'll never support cutting a dime from SS, Medicare or Medicaid while the top tax rate (payroll and cap gains) is under 45%.
Iggy
(1,418 posts)numerous Dems in congress who agree "something must be done about 'entitlements'".
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Iggy
(1,418 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)They see the (D) and think Not (R). Too often the are still wrong.
problem with the blue dog/conservative democratic traitors/fellow travelers of the Republican/tea party ideology. They helped the rethugs thwart everything that Obama did first term, excepting ACA. Yeah you're right, I got it in for them. Snakes traitors. I hate a traitor.
harun
(11,348 posts)done that.
msongs
(67,405 posts)bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)Change has come
(2,372 posts)southmost
(759 posts)rec'd
let the tax cuts expire!
hay rick
(7,612 posts)His concluding paragraph:
We are headed into a new era of upheaval. Our money-soaked politics may suffocate growing demands for change. But if Democratic legislators join the president in a grand betrayal, they may witness a powerful Tea Party movement from the left, as Republican legislators have from the right.
K&R.
kartski
(14 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)and who didn't?
progressoid
(49,990 posts)Royal Sloan 09
(406 posts)northoftheborder
(7,572 posts)Spirochete
(5,264 posts)Back to the top you go
ProSense
(116,464 posts)let's do it.
Patty Murray: If GOP Refuses All Tax Hikes, Well Let Them Go Up And Start Over
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021791837
Treasury Secretary Calls For Abolishing The Debt Ceiling
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/11/19/1212691/geithner-abolish-debt-ceiling/
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Fiscal cliff is nothing but a focus group tested slogan to scare people.
We need a Fiscal Noose to use on anyone who supports this shit.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)Brother Buzz
(36,432 posts)fleur-de-lisa
(14,624 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)ancianita
(36,055 posts)ProudProgressiveNow
(6,129 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)Now we just wait and see what happens. I doubt Boehner will get "98% of what I wanted" this time.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)airplaneman
(1,239 posts)The debt hoax - the 16 trillion debt is why there are not enough jobs.
Reality - if the dept went to zero tomorrow it would have no impact on the employment situation.
The fiscal cliff hoax - again this will destroy jobs.
Reality - a more equitable tax system improves the job situation.
-Airplane
barbtries
(28,794 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)The Republican Party has decomposed from Bernie in WEEKEND AT BERNIE'S to month old roadkill no longer distinguishable as a dog, cat, or possum.
That makes it even more frustrating that top Dems are pretending the splattered bits of gristle, fur, and bone are twisting their arm.
rzemanfl
(29,557 posts)xxqqqzme
(14,887 posts)talk of Obama playing chess while his obstructionists are playing checkers...well, break out the cards and chips. Time to call their bluff. The people know what the rethugs are doing - which is why they LOST 2 weeks ago.
world wide wally
(21,743 posts)"All in on the fiscal cliff"
Bet the farm!
Malikshah
(4,818 posts)Yippee kay-yay mutha-f$#&ers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)No GB!
The Wizard
(12,545 posts)robbob
(3,530 posts)...and I'll say it again; why can't we let ALL tax cuts expire, then introduce a bill to restore tax cuts to the middle and lower classes? Let the GOP block tax relief for the middle class, see how THAT plays out with their constituents.
Am I missing something here? It seems like an easy fix?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Real poker. Too bad it won't happen.
Smilo
(1,944 posts)reggaehead
(269 posts)I say double gainer
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Since when was a series of steps a cliff?
Webster Green
(13,905 posts)Right on!
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Let the GOP choke down it's own meds, and die of them in 2014, that way we can finally get to work.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)calikid
(584 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)and for the elderly?
As long as it won't hurt those who have no financial resources outside their government assistance, I would like to see them allow the tax cuts to expire provided they bring back the tax cuts for the middle class next year.
allrevvedup
(408 posts)Very happy to rec this post but I wonder if it might be better to kick the can down the road another six months than abruptly terminate safety net programs in the dead of winter. But if some form of interim alternative funding can be secured for anyone relying on the federal extended unemployment benefit I'm all for going over the cliff, if necessary.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)You'd rather let the bully beat you up for six more months than stand up to him and fight back.
Hulk
(6,699 posts)Point taken!
socialindependocrat
(1,372 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)PETRUS
(3,678 posts)mzmolly
(50,992 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 22, 2012, 06:07 PM - Edit history (1)
our own "pet" programs in order to cut defense etc. I hope all here realize that?
I respect the man and his opinion, as always.
upi402
(16,854 posts)"unforgivable" on CNN
mzmolly
(50,992 posts)Especially after the repeated sound enhanced replays.
YEARGH!
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)and never has been.
mzmolly
(50,992 posts)rock
(13,218 posts)highplainsdem
(48,978 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Question is ...who will profit from it ...and there is where you will find the greedy power hungry predators.
Duval
(4,280 posts)Festivito
(13,452 posts)So let's take it.
BobbyBoring
(1,965 posts)Stevepol
(4,234 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)scmoore120
(45 posts)Teamster Jeff
(1,598 posts)LeftInTX
(25,331 posts)lsewpershad
(2,620 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Doremus
(7,261 posts)juajen
(8,515 posts)veganlush
(2,049 posts)and Arrrh!
entanglement
(3,615 posts)agenda of cuts down the throats of an unsuspecting populace. These creeps hate even the feeble and inadequate social safety nets we have in place today.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)+1000
Let's not make a deal to drive over their imaginary fiscal cliff which in reality is a grand betrayal,
and say we did.
dwilso40641
(198 posts)Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)me b zola
(19,053 posts)Smickey
(3,320 posts)AdHocSolver
(2,561 posts)The Federal deficit is not the problem. The problem is a revenue deficit. Cutting taxes for the rich and the corporations will exacerbate the revenue deficit.
Cutting spending will NOT reduce the deficit. In fact, cutting spending will increase the deficit because jobs will be lost reducing tax revenue still further.
All economies are demand driven. Reducing money for the middle class, the working poor, and those who depend on the social safety nets such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, whose spending helps drive the economy, will further shrink the economy and increase the deficit. At the same time, the wealthy are just "money hoarders" extracting wealth from the economy, just as leeches suck blood from their victims.
The major problem with the U.S. economy is not the Federal deficit, but the trade deficit. Bring jobs that have been offshored back to the U.S. (by rewriting the tax code and renegotiating trade agreements to reduce the unfair competitive advantage given to outsourcers) and many of our economic problems will be corrected.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)Vestigial_Sister
(182 posts)EmeraldCityGrl
(4,310 posts)White House Comment Line 202-456-1111 In case you want to leave comments supporting this position.
Iggo
(47,552 posts)I do agree with Krugman and Dean, though.
HCE SuiGeneris
(14,994 posts)meegbear
(25,438 posts)UCmeNdc
(9,600 posts)drynberg
(1,648 posts)After all, it beats the hell outta givin' in to those RW crazy demands that are not based on what's best for our Nation, only the Fat Ass Cats that gave millions and billions to the pols. As "W" so memorably said, "Bring 'em on!", cept we mean it.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)hwmnbn
(4,279 posts)Tutonic
(2,522 posts)n/t
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)malthaussen
(17,195 posts)abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)idwiyo
(5,113 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)I believe it will.
Once the 'mandatory reductions' kick in, we can introduce bills to help the unemployed and cut middle class taxes, and paint the R's as elitist a as they fight against them.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)sendero
(28,552 posts).. Obama sticks to his guns on this. He needs to just draw the line in the sand and if the pukes want to drive over the cliff, let 'em.