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I'm pretty tired of being called antisemitic just because I criticize Israel and their government. (Original Post) Lunabell Feb 23 OP
It's an ad hominem debate tactic. Sneederbunk Feb 23 #1
It's just gaslighting... Think. Again. Feb 23 #2
Same, sadly there is no actual discussion. Just accusations. onecaliberal Feb 23 #38
I did a lot of blocking. sybylla Feb 23 #43
Yes. I've never had so many people on ignore before. Crunchy Frog Feb 24 #113
I put many on ignore during the 2012 election, trying to make staying here feel less awful. sybylla Feb 24 #114
Yes, I used to read and sometimes post in that forum. Crunchy Frog Feb 24 #115
Join the line malaise Feb 23 #3
You posted a conspiracy theory and got called on it. maxsolomon Feb 23 #4
Let Me Guess, Sir The Magistrate Feb 23 #7
You guessed correctly. madaboutharry Feb 23 #11
Demonizing Jews? Lunabell Feb 23 #14
Being warned about an immanent attack and LIHOP are different things. maxsolomon Feb 23 #35
Has there been an explanation yet of the hours-long delay of the IDF's response... brush Feb 23 #45
We won't get that while there's an active war going on Arazi Feb 23 #73
I was wondering that to. Butterflylady Feb 23 #85
One poster, and it's probably true, said that won't come out until Netanyahu is out... brush Feb 23 #96
LIHOP is a conspiracy theory. TwilightZone Feb 23 #39
Criticism was not warranted. Butterflylady Feb 23 #86
Disagreement and Criticism Is Not Censorship, Ma'am The Magistrate Feb 23 #88
And Netanyahu long enabled Hamas radius777 Feb 23 #71
That's not a CT. He wanted Palestinians divided, so he wasn't aggressive enough against Hamas. LeftInTX Feb 23 #91
He knew they were practicing "storming " the border questionseverything Feb 24 #101
Post removed Post removed Feb 23 #5
Damn. OilemFirchen Feb 23 #6
what are the words? TIA Celerity Feb 23 #56
I disagree. Chainfire Feb 23 #20
DU is also not representative - it's much older and Boomer-centric than radius777 Feb 23 #63
The Dem base is women, primarily mcar Feb 23 #92
"the Dem base ... tends to view this war as genocide." No, the actual base knows the correct definition of the word betsuni Feb 24 #98
Israel's Likud are far-right theofascist oppressors radius777 Feb 24 #121
Yeah. OldBaldy1701E Feb 23 #23
I'm with you, Lunabell, as I AM 'semitic,' firmly Jewish, elleng Feb 23 #8
They were blue and white tins Mossfern Feb 23 #50
YES they were! elleng Feb 23 #51
I deeply support Israel jimfields33 Feb 24 #130
I hear you. nt Wounded Bear Feb 23 #9
If you only ever selectively criticize Israel and Jews Arazi Feb 23 #10
Well then. Lunabell Feb 23 #15
I think they would justifiably moniss Feb 23 #16
Can you name another conflict on DU with even a fraction of the same criticism and condemnation? Arazi Feb 23 #19
Can you angrychair Feb 23 #25
Yes, the Saudis and their war on Yemenis Arazi Feb 23 #33
""How about the Kurds?"" You should know very well that THAT was a Trump admin decision. It didn't go over well most TeamProg Feb 23 #49
Still, was an American decision Arazi Feb 23 #54
I seem to recall lots of discussion of it at the time. Crunchy Frog Feb 24 #117
Not getting angrychair Feb 23 #64
I think that 10% figure might be wrong... justaprogressive Feb 24 #111
I guess you weren't around during the US invasion of Iraq. The prevailing opinion was highly critical of bombing Martin68 Feb 23 #26
I was here Arazi Feb 23 #34
Your blithe "move along" is very revealing. You are clearly not someone who is ready to engage in civil discourse Martin68 Feb 23 #44
Nope Arazi Feb 23 #52
I can come up with SIX various examples. 1. Russia -we had conversations about genocide of the Chechens. TeamProg Feb 23 #60
I don't suppose you've heard of or read anything by Timothy Snyder, have you? Crunchy Frog Feb 23 #66
Yes I know Tim Snyder Arazi Feb 23 #69
Arazi, your vague "the rest who are suddenly dwelling solely on the I/P war" is a strawman and nothing more. Martin68 Feb 24 #102
I don't know what vicious moniss Feb 23 #41
Yes well it goes both ways Arazi Feb 23 #46
What constitutes "justifiable?" When is it over-retaliation? brush Feb 23 #57
Sigh... I'll go into this one more time Arazi Feb 23 #67
And that's your explanation? You're good with that? You don't think it's over-retaliation? brush Feb 23 #68
Yes. Yes. No. And yes, it's a war zone Arazi Feb 23 #70
I didn't expect more. Why not get rid of warmonger Netanyahu? brush Feb 23 #75
1000% agreed. Arazi Feb 23 #78
Glad we're on the same page on most of this...especially Netanyahu and Hamas. brush Feb 26 #138
It is why I pointed out that it can moniss Feb 23 #58
Hold on, no SINGLE poster here is attacking anyone's chosen religion, alright? I have seen NOTHING to suspect anyone TeamProg Feb 23 #47
Russia and Putin get hammered here as they should, radius777 Feb 24 #128
Soooooo angrychair Feb 23 #22
Well, that's a strawman if I ever saw one Arazi Feb 23 #31
Oh, ok angrychair Feb 23 #37
Well, hundreds of posts vs zero might be a problem but MadameButterfly Feb 23 #40
I've been accused of being an antisemite on here for being critical of Israel. Crunchy Frog Feb 23 #32
You've accused Russia of genocide in Ukraine? Arazi Feb 23 #36
Ukraine a typical war-zone? Reallyyy? MadameButterfly Feb 23 #42
Yes, the Ukraine war is actually fairly typical Arazi Feb 23 #48
I can think of no war that comes close to this destruction of Gaza and numbers of dead women and children along with TeamProg Feb 23 #65
"Typical war zone". yagotme Feb 24 #118
But he is being charged with war crimes for attacking civilians MadameButterfly Feb 24 #131
Russia's aims in Ukraine are explicitly genocidal. Crunchy Frog Feb 23 #53
If my comments don't apply to you, then fine Arazi Feb 23 #59
Editing comment -- nevermind. Sky Jewels Feb 23 #80
Where have I ever said that? (hint: I haven't) Arazi Feb 23 #82
Okay, I'm sorry. I think I got you mixed up with another DUer who has a similar "A" name. Sky Jewels Feb 23 #83
yeah, I only selectively criticize jews. Lunabell Feb 23 #62
You must have mystic powers to know who has criticized who over their lives. Chainfire Feb 24 #109
I see your point, but... cab67 Feb 24 #133
I'm reminded of an old saying. William769 Feb 23 #12
My 2nd wife moniss Feb 23 #17
I, too, am reminded of an old saying. Martin68 Feb 23 #28
Argue on. twodogsbarking Feb 23 #13
I usually don't wade in on these threads senseandsensibility Feb 23 #18
Israel has a right to defend itself! Bucky Feb 23 #21
Really. ismnotwasm Feb 23 #24
Some of us are victims of both. n/t Marcus IM Feb 23 #29
Huh, what? Where is that here? To be clear, that is what we're talking about. Being accused of antisemitism here on D U TeamProg Feb 23 #72
Could you point us to anti-Semitic comments you've seen on DU? Sky Jewels Feb 23 #79
Any who say they have not seen antisemitism sarisataka Feb 23 #84
Same here. Marcus IM Feb 23 #27
That's odd. OilemFirchen Feb 23 #30
Same with me .... Mossfern Feb 23 #76
I'll crawl out on a limb and jump around on it and say I've never had a good word for Netanyahu or Likud TheKentuckian Feb 23 #90
It's the new McCarthyism. But the youth/PoC/smart folks won't be silenced. radius777 Feb 23 #55
As far are the Youth/POC are concerned, this will be their world going forward SouthernDem4ever Feb 24 #125
You seem to be in good company. SarahD Feb 23 #61
There's nothing wrong with opposing Israel's social system. David__77 Feb 23 #74
Yep. It's ridiculous. Sky Jewels Feb 23 #77
Both sides have bad leaders mvd Feb 23 #95
When you criticize Israel and their government, do you make a distinction between the two? Beastly Boy Feb 23 #81
I am asking this seriously-- viva la Feb 23 #87
Not exactly what I addressed in my post, but your question illustrates how to not voice your concern or Beastly Boy Feb 24 #105
Well Said, Sir The Magistrate Feb 24 #107
I can see why moniss Feb 24 #112
Another possible angle to look at, is: yagotme Feb 24 #120
rec BootinUp Feb 24 #129
What does IDF stand for? viva la Feb 24 #135
Israeli Defense Forces The Magistrate Feb 24 #136
I understand moniss Feb 24 #116
Thank you. I was a bit taken aback. viva la Feb 24 #137
Thank you for this reasoned post, Beastly Boy. madaboutharry Feb 23 #93
I stand with Lunabell. Butterflylady Feb 23 #89
"Thou shall not kill" is a mistranslation of the hebrew. Mosby Feb 23 #97
Do you support Biden? Are you gonna vote for the Green Party? LeftInTX Feb 23 #94
Criticism of Israel's actions in the war on Gaza is Dorian Gray Feb 24 #99
That's A Good Summary, Sir The Magistrate Feb 24 #100
Often missing from discussions are how Palestinian refugees are treated by Lebanon LeftInTX Feb 24 #103
Remember, people, Netanyahu is a friend of Jared Kushner's father. Just saying. Also, he's not Israel. Joinfortmill Feb 24 #104
I always think its unfair when people say someone is a racist or bigot simply based on what they say. nt LexVegas Feb 24 #106
Why do you think that is unfair? TheKentuckian Feb 24 #119
I have no problem with anyone criticizing the Israeli government. Elessar Zappa Feb 24 #108
On all of this, we can agree. Lunabell Feb 24 #110
I 100% agree Cthulu on call Feb 24 #122
Not everyone who criticizes the Israeli govt is called anti-Semitic Kaleva Feb 24 #123
I have no use for Bibi and no use for Hamas lonely bird Feb 24 #124
They are both evil incarnate. Lunabell Feb 24 #126
Israel is not targeting civilians. lapucelle Feb 24 #134
Wish I read it a month earlier question everything Feb 24 #127
I said the same thing not that long ago. cab67 Feb 24 #132

Think. Again.

(7,657 posts)
2. It's just gaslighting...
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 05:01 PM
Feb 23

...I mostly dropped out of the I/P discussions because of it, unfortunately, that was probably the goal.

onecaliberal

(32,689 posts)
38. Same, sadly there is no actual discussion. Just accusations.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:18 PM
Feb 23

You can accuse me of caring about innocent people. I don't care where they live or what color they are. I am 100% guilty!

sybylla

(8,488 posts)
43. I did a lot of blocking.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:26 PM
Feb 23

It was simply ridiculous on it's face. There were similar comments made by so many people who simply weren't interested in nuances and facts. That has no place in my feed.

Now most posts I look at on DU have a few missing post numbers. I don't care. I can't imagine I'm missing much.

Crunchy Frog

(26,572 posts)
113. Yes. I've never had so many people on ignore before.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 12:45 PM
Feb 24

And that includes a lot of posters that I've had high regard for in the past.

sybylla

(8,488 posts)
114. I put many on ignore during the 2012 election, trying to make staying here feel less awful.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 12:59 PM
Feb 24

Unfortunately, it became such a horrid free-for-all that I left and didn't come back until last year.

This topic used to be confined to the I/P forum. Hate to say it but it's always been like this inside that forum. It's why it was given it's own and all discussion was forced to stay there.

Until it bled out into the GD and Late Breaking, I didn't block anyone for their opinion on it. Now, I have no choice.

Crunchy Frog

(26,572 posts)
115. Yes, I used to read and sometimes post in that forum.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 01:06 PM
Feb 24

It simply got intolerable, plus nothing ever changes there, so it's ultimately futile and boring.

The reasons it's in the regular forums now is that it's a major global news story. That makes it a valid subject for wider discussion. And it probably will continue to be for some time. This is why ignore seems to be the most useful option, as well as "trash thread" sometimes.

madaboutharry

(40,176 posts)
11. You guessed correctly.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 05:28 PM
Feb 23

Spewing LIHOP conspiracy theories will get called out every time. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

Lunabell

(6,012 posts)
14. Demonizing Jews?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:25 PM
Feb 23

Nope. That didn't happen and reliable sources claim that the Israeli government was warned about an imminent attack. That's not a conspiracy theory. That Netenyahu let it happen? My opinion.

maxsolomon

(33,198 posts)
35. Being warned about an immanent attack and LIHOP are different things.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:10 PM
Feb 23

LIHOP is a CT, sorry. It was for 9/11 too.

The poster took issue with your opinion. Deal.

brush

(53,643 posts)
45. Has there been an explanation yet of the hours-long delay of the IDF's response...
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:31 PM
Feb 23

to the Hamas attack on Oct. 7?

I haven't heard it yet.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
73. We won't get that while there's an active war going on
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:43 PM
Feb 23

Just like 9/11 it’s going to take a commission to get the facts and that’s going to have to wait (I’m sure) until it’s possible to put resources into it.

And Netanyahu and Likud will need to be gone first too, no way will they allow that anyway.

I’d say we might have that answer in 2-3 years

brush

(53,643 posts)
96. One poster, and it's probably true, said that won't come out until Netanyahu is out...
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 11:24 PM
Feb 23

as his warmongering self won't allow such an investigation.

Butterflylady

(3,536 posts)
86. Criticism was not warranted.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 10:14 PM
Feb 23

Everyone here is entitled to their opinion, that's why they call it censorship.

The Magistrate

(95,240 posts)
88. Disagreement and Criticism Is Not Censorship, Ma'am
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 10:34 PM
Feb 23

People disagree with me all the time, and while I'm sure they are in error when they do, I've never raised a cry of 'censorship' or 'I'm being silenced!' over it.

Someone speaking in public can't expect universal agreement, and certainly has no right to insist on it.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
71. And Netanyahu long enabled Hamas
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:42 PM
Feb 23

in a cynical strategy of divide and conquer, to prevent the possibility of a two state solution:

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/02/1210076717/everybody-got-it-wrong-how-did-israel-fail-to-detect-hamas-planned-invasion
GROSS: Netanyahu's 2008 campaign slogan was strong against Hamas. And in a campaign video he pledged, we will not stop the Israeli Defense Forces, we will finish the job. We will topple the terror regime of Hamas. But you write that over Netanyahu came to see Hamas as a way to balance power against the Palestinian Authority, which governs the West Bank. And the Palestinian Authority has sought a peace agreement with Israel in return for a Palestinian state. So over time, Netanyahu started to, in his own way, support Hamas - like, help Hamas. Can you explain how he did that - like, what he gave Hamas and why?
MAZZETTI: Sure. This was, in essence, a kind of divide-and-conquer strategy for Netanyahu. But it was a sort of cynical strategy by Netanyahu that was very controversial in the past, and some past ministers of his resigned over it. But it was a sort of way to balance Hamas from - with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, to sort of allow Netanyahu to say publicly, well, I have no real partners. I've got Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. They're indistinguishable. Hamas wants the eradication of Israel. And so therefore, we can never really have peace with the Palestinians. And so by strengthening Hamas, he sort of put them on the same plane as the Palestinian Authority. And it allowed him, in essence, to sort of slow roll the peace process and sort of make it - kick it down the road so there was never real pressure on him to sit down at the table and talk about a Palestinian state.


His RW gov't in the leadup to 10-7 terror attack had been antagonizing Palestinians culminating in the IDF's raid of the sacred Al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan, which Hamas named their terror attack after:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/hamas-releases-report-clarifying-operation-al-aqsa-flood/3115099
Operation Al-Aqsa Flood” and aimed at refuting Israel's claims, said Operation Al-Aqsa Flood was a necessary step and a natural reaction against Israel's plans to eliminate the Palestinian cause, seize lands, Judaize the Palestinian lands, and establish complete control over Al-Aqsa Mosque and holy sites.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Al-Aqsa_clashes
A series of violent confrontations occurred between Palestinians and Israeli police at the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem in April 2023. After the evening Ramadan prayer, Palestinians barricaded themselves inside the mosque, prompted by reports that Jews planned to sacrifice a goat at the site (which is forbidden by Israeli law). In response, Israeli police raided the mosque in riot gear, injuring 50 people[1] and arresting at least 400.[3]
In the aftermath of the clashes, Palestinian militant groups[4] fired rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip and Lebanon – acts broadly construed as a response to the events at Al-Aqsa.
...
On 7 October 2023, Hamas launched a major surprise attack on Israel with rocket barrage and an incursion. The commander of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Mohammed Deif, claimed the attack was conducted in response to "desecration of the Al-Aqsa Mosque".


So while Netanyahu may not have LIHOP, it's surely an event he contributed to and used as a pretext for his aims, in the same way that Bush admin used 9-11 to justify their wars.

LeftInTX

(24,904 posts)
91. That's not a CT. He wanted Palestinians divided, so he wasn't aggressive enough against Hamas.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 11:03 PM
Feb 23

He also looked the other way when they were funded etc.
LIHOP means that he knew an attack would happen and let it happen. They've had iron dome for decades and it has worked. He probably figured it would protect them from whatever.
I don't think he anticipated thousands of them storming the border. He did divert troops to the West Bank and he also had a troop shortage at the time.

questionseverything

(9,641 posts)
101. He knew they were practicing "storming " the border
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 06:51 AM
Feb 24

Because the guards reported it repeatedly, it was after the warning he moved them

Response to Lunabell (Original post)

Chainfire

(17,406 posts)
20. I disagree.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:43 PM
Feb 23

The common theme around here has been if you don't accept anything that Israel does as justifiable, then you will be attacked as being anti-Semitic. Criticism of the regime is verboten. Showing any compassion for the people of Gaza is to be accused of being "pro Hamas. If you mention the 10,000 dead children, you can be assured that someone will do two things; dispute the numbers and go in to the whataboutism defense.

We are getting near 30,000 Palestinian deaths and a large part of the population centers are in ruins; the vast majority of the dead had nothing to do with Oct. 7.


radius777

(3,635 posts)
63. DU is also not representative - it's much older and Boomer-centric than
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:16 PM
Feb 23

the Dem base itself which tends to view this 'war' as genocide. Even the Biden admin as well as many European nations have condemned many of Israel's actions.

Netanyahu is a far-right nationalist, and it's the GOP and its base that is much more pro-Israel than Dems or independents. Speaker Johnson won't fund anything yet brought up a standalone Israel funding bill. Stefanik and the GOP House committees are going after 'liberal academia' in attempt to cancel and silence the voices of those who are critical of Israel or express any pro-Palestinian sentiment.

mcar

(42,242 posts)
92. The Dem base is women, primarily
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 11:09 PM
Feb 23

Black Women. I have seen no evidence that the true base considers this genocide.

betsuni

(25,320 posts)
98. "the Dem base ... tends to view this war as genocide." No, the actual base knows the correct definition of the word
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 12:10 AM
Feb 24

genocide.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
121. Israel's Likud are far-right theofascist oppressors
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 02:10 PM
Feb 24

whose ultimate goal is ethnic cleansing and a 'pure' Jewish state.

It's why our own GOP RW (who are mainly white and Christian) are so strongly pro-Israel and pro-Netanyahu, because they hold a similar Judeo-Christian supremacist worldview:

https://news.yahoo.com/50-biden-voters-israel-committing-155751797.html
50% of voters who voted for Biden in 2020 think that Israel is "committing genocide against Palestinian civilians, according to polling from YouGov and The Economist conducted from January 21-23 that surveyed 1,664 US adult citizens.

Another 20% of Biden voters said that's not the case, while another 30% said they were not sure.

Among all registered voters, 32% said that Israel is committing genocide, while 42% said no and another 26% said they were not sure. 67% of Republicans said Israel is not committing genocide.


To put it differently, only 20% of Dems say 'not genocide' while 67% of Republicans say 'not genocide'.

OldBaldy1701E

(5,054 posts)
23. Yeah.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:50 PM
Feb 23

I am a gay performer. I am not, nor have I ever been bigoted. I have spent my entire life with everyone and enjoying everyone.

It has never stopped some people from seeing a fat, bald, southern-born boomer and making accusations. Ever.

Not being a racist-ass has never stopped people from saying I was one. (Sometimes just because they saw me. I had just walked into the room and had not said or done anything. Yet, two people decided that I was a dumb redneck. I found out later it was because of my hat. It was a fedora, a'la Indiana Jones. They decided it was a cowboy hat. Makes one wonder just who the dumb rednecks were that night.)

elleng

(130,562 posts)
8. I'm with you, Lunabell, as I AM 'semitic,' firmly Jewish,
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 05:22 PM
Feb 23

and don't support Israel, never have. As I recall (been a LONG time,) neither did my father, but my mother's family DID, had little blue contribution cups @ aunt and uncle's home.

Mossfern

(2,439 posts)
50. They were blue and white tins
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:41 PM
Feb 23

for trees in Israel. The Jewish National fund.

I support the existence of Israel, but not Likud nor Netanyahu.
Just as you believe that not all Gazans are Hamas, understand that not all Israelis are Likud.

Those attacked on 10/7 were mostly Left leaning - the concert was a Peace concert.

jimfields33

(15,593 posts)
130. I deeply support Israel
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 04:39 PM
Feb 24

They went through hell only 70 years ago. Why is that forgotten? The wounds are still open. They don’t magically go away. They were oppressed beyond imagination. I think they need kindness.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
10. If you only ever selectively criticize Israel and Jews
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 05:24 PM
Feb 23

And you have no other history of a similar critique of any other conflict or country, then I think people justifiably open themselves up to charges of antisemitism

moniss

(4,098 posts)
16. I think they would justifiably
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:31 PM
Feb 23

be questioned about their positions on other conflicts as opposed to automatically jumping to the accusation of being anti-Semitic.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
19. Can you name another conflict on DU with even a fraction of the same criticism and condemnation?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:43 PM
Feb 23

And vicious attacks as Israel and Jews?

angrychair

(8,656 posts)
25. Can you
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:54 PM
Feb 23

Name a conflict in which we supply 25% of that nation's defense budget and never publicly question or push back on their actions? The federal government actively intercedes on their behalf to block any criticism of their nation in the UN?
That is currently planning a ground invasion on a town holding 1.2 million people meant to support only a fraction of that amount? That, very literally, have no where else to go?
These people are NOT terrorists but almost exclusively women and children and not military targets.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
33. Yes, the Saudis and their war on Yemenis
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:08 PM
Feb 23

Close to a million dead civilians there, most of them women and children. 4.5 million displaced. Starvation across the entire country.

How about the Kurds? “We” helped slaughter and displace them even within the past few years. Where is Kurdistan? Oh right, wiped off the map - now that’s a genocide.

And we provide at most 10% of Israel’s arms. They’re a net weapons exporter

TeamProg

(5,957 posts)
49. ""How about the Kurds?"" You should know very well that THAT was a Trump admin decision. It didn't go over well most
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:41 PM
Feb 23

places.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
54. Still, was an American decision
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:49 PM
Feb 23

With massive repercussions.

Just because it was #Traitor at the helm doesn’t absolve us

Crunchy Frog

(26,572 posts)
117. I seem to recall lots of discussion of it at the time.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 01:19 PM
Feb 24

I don't recall anyone defending the policy though, which is probably why there wasn't the same quantity of discussion as there is over this issue. When people are deeply divided over an issue and there's lots of controversy, it tends to generate a lot more discussion that gets a lot uglier. That's why primary season is always so awful around here.

angrychair

(8,656 posts)
64. Not getting
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:21 PM
Feb 23

Into every bad thing happening in the world just because I'm talking about what is happening in Gaza. They are mutually exclusive conversations, not at all related in participates or circumstances.
It's a "whataboutism" conversation and endless.
The current bill trying to get a vote in the House is for $14 billion or over 50% of the Israeli defense budget in 2023 (roughly $24 billion)

justaprogressive

(2,162 posts)
111. I think that 10% figure might be wrong...
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 12:38 PM
Feb 24
This year, military budgets around the world hit all-time highs. Israel in recent years has been growing its arms export business. It also imports significant weapons from the UK, Italy, Canada, and Germany, but 92 percent of what Israel gets comes from the United States. As researcher William Hartung wrote recently in The Nation, “Israel’s arsenal, and its arms industry, are by and large made in, and financed by, the USA.”


[link:https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/18/23966137/us-weapons-israel-biden-package-explained|

Martin68

(22,728 posts)
26. I guess you weren't around during the US invasion of Iraq. The prevailing opinion was highly critical of bombing
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:54 PM
Feb 23

that resulted in thousands of civilian deaths. You also seem to have missed the prevailing opinions expressed on DU about Russia’s war on Ukraine. A lot of us are tired of knee-jerk charges of anti-semitism in response to criticism of the Israeli bombing of densely populated residential areas in Gaza.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
34. I was here
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:10 PM
Feb 23

Can you point me to accusations of genocide by Americans regarding Russia or aimed at our own government?

And look, if this doesn’t apply to you then great. Move along…

Martin68

(22,728 posts)
44. Your blithe "move along" is very revealing. You are clearly not someone who is ready to engage in civil discourse
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:29 PM
Feb 23

about any topic. Now you are moving the goal posts. Your initial post mentioned nothing of genocide, only criticism of Israel and Jews. That is the post to which I responded. You have a clear agenda of labeling anyone who criticizes Israel an anti-semite, which totally confirms the point made by the original OP. Charges of genocide are not the topic of this discussion.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
52. Nope
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:47 PM
Feb 23

And I’m not moving any goalposts. I’ve been crystal clear on this for hundreds of posts here. I only used the “genocide” charge as an example of criticism of Israel/Jews. Nothing more to it.

I haven’t made any specific accusations of antisemitism to you, so if any of this doesn’t apply to you, then great. I’m not searching everyone’s posting history. If the OP isn’t in that boat either, great, then my comments don’t apply there either. There have certainly been numerous posters here who have never made a single comment on any other far worse conflicts, with far worse civilian deaths yet suddenly they’re gung-ho for this one.

TeamProg

(5,957 posts)
60. I can come up with SIX various examples. 1. Russia -we had conversations about genocide of the Chechens.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:00 PM
Feb 23

2. M.E., I can vaguely remember discussions about the U.S. abandonment of the Kurds as leading to genocide by Syria.

3. China, there were discussions of genocide of the Muslim Uygurs.

4. Nazi Germany, there have been discussions here about the Holocaust.

5. China again, the takeover and destruction of Tibetan culture.

6. Russia again. Putin claims that Ukrainians are Russian, not Ukrainian, so Putin eliminates in advance any discussion of genocide as a possibility.


There are probably more.

Crunchy Frog

(26,572 posts)
66. I don't suppose you've heard of or read anything by Timothy Snyder, have you?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:24 PM
Feb 23

He's probably America's top expert on Ukrainian history, and he's been very explicit about calling out the genocidal nature of this war. Maybe you could look him up.

Plenty of other Western observers have also talked about genocide in relation to russia's war on Ukraine. Here's some things I was able to pull up from a brief online search.

https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/09/russia-committing-genocide-ukraine

https://theconversation.com/unmarked-graves-violent-repression-and-cultural-erasure-the-devastating-human-toll-of-russias-invasion-of-ukraine-223337

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-lawmakers-visiting-the-hague-say-putin-is-committing-genocide-in-ukraine

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
69. Yes I know Tim Snyder
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:36 PM
Feb 23

I know his excellent research.

My comments were directed to (waves hand) the rest who are suddenly dwelling solely on the I/P war.

Thanks for the links. I hope some DUers actually read them.

I’d similarly ask DUers to look up John Spencer, an urban warfare expert, who’s done a lot of analysis on the Gaza war. Or retired General Mark Hertling who’s offered up similarly excellent commentary.

Thanks for the respectful dialogue. I’m actually in the middle of other stuff irl atm and not very focused so sorry this is a short response without links

Martin68

(22,728 posts)
102. Arazi, your vague "the rest who are suddenly dwelling solely on the I/P war" is a strawman and nothing more.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 10:26 AM
Feb 24

I would suggest that while it would not be surprising if a small number of anti-semites are posting on DU (there are probably small number of almost any hate group you can imagine in any large community), they are the exception and not worthy of your angry tirades. They are certainly not taking up a lot of bandwidth here and speak only for themselves.

moniss

(4,098 posts)
41. I don't know what vicious
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:20 PM
Feb 23

attacks you're referencing but lack of equivalence in postings about Yemen, Somalia, Northern Ireland, Georgia, Kashmir, Armenia etc. does not mean that indicates anti-Semitism. Other conflicts are different in different ways. This one has a very long tortured history of bad behavior by all sides, supporters and groups as I have pointed out endlessly. The intensity of the attacks back and forth and direct implications of US involvement and policy have a long history of debate and discussion here on DU. Is it possible that some people may harbor those feelings? Sure. Is it prevalent? Not from what I see. I see accusations of it from time to time but the people here are generally not that from what I see. Is it possible that some people who post here are anti-Palestinian/Muslim/Arab etc.? Sure but I don't see that either.

What I do see is a community of people discussing tragic behavior and events that carry deep emotions and feelings for those affected and those of us observing, discussing and questioning. As I said it is possible that some harbor or speak from these various "anti" this or that sentiment. But it is equally a bad thing to automatically accuse or label someone with that because they have made a comment we disagree with. There have been people who have made it clear they do not want to discuss anything about this conflict because they have been jumped on in the past and just don't want to go through it all over and over again. To the extent a person is not taking part in discussion because they don't want the vitriol and accusations it is a loss to a discussion community.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
46. Yes well it goes both ways
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:32 PM
Feb 23

Being accused of being indifferent to the slaughter and suffering of the Palestinians, or being on Netanyahu’s side, or defending Joe Biden’s actions as being a shameful position etc because I happen to believe Israel actually is (so far) waging a justifiable war that Hamas brought, isn’t very pleasant here either.

I’ve let threads slide by because it IS the same old arguments by the same people.

I’ve asked mods to put the discussion back in the I/P forum because it is toxic and it’s creating permanent rifts within our party. I’m not sure anything constructive is happening with this discussion in GD anymore (please note mods and those quick to alert that I’m not dissing moderation here)

brush

(53,643 posts)
57. What constitutes "justifiable?" When is it over-retaliation?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:55 PM
Feb 23

I'd say the body count has to be factored into that calculation. As it is now, 1200 Israelis killed on Oct. 7 v, let's just say 25,000 innocent, non-combatant Palestinians, mostly women and children...and mind you, some say the Palestinian deaths are closer to 30,000 than just the 25,000 used in this post.

Anyway, I contend that the ratio of 1200 Israeli deaths v 25,000 Palestinian deaths — 1 to 21 — is in no way justifiable. Are you getting me? Justifying that ratio means that you feel 1 Israeli death is worth retaliation in the amount of 21 Palestinians, plus the near-leveling of Gaza.

Explain, please.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
67. Sigh... I'll go into this one more time
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:25 PM
Feb 23

And then I’m finished. This particular avenue brings me only grief because too many here have obviously never followed a war before so with that preface…

The Hamas health ministry says 29,025 people have been killed so far (and I agree with Biden that it’s impossible to trust their numbers. There’s no way ANY war zone can count casualties with precision during active conflict).

Of that figure the IDF says they’ve killed approximately 10,000 Hamas fighters. This brings civilian casualties down to 19k +/-.

Of those we don’t know how many have been killed by Hamas. Approximately 10% of their rockets have failed and have fallen on their own civilians. They also shoot and kill civilians that try to escape being used as human shields (Hamas counts all of those as killed by the IDF regardless which is a falsehood but I digress)

Some number of civilians were killed during the 10/7 incursion and we don’t know that number either. They aren’t “innocents” regardless.

Right now the IDF is claiming a kill ratio of 2:1 (2 civilians for every IDF combatant that’s killed). To be honest, for this kind of urban warfare, that’s ASTOUNDINGLY good. Shockingly low. For comparison, in Vietnam, with tunnel warfare, our kill ratio was 40:1.

So the actual kill ratio number isn’t knowable tbh. But it’s probably closer to 10-12:1

And frankly, those numbers mean that for an urban war of this type, it means the IDF is doing backflips to try to protect civilians. Especially since Hamas wants dead women and children and is deliberately putting them on the battlefield.

I know there’s now another whole percentage of DU that will damn me for this accounting but it’s a fucking war. Civilians are going to die. I realize many here will never reconcile that

brush

(53,643 posts)
68. And that's your explanation? You're good with that? You don't think it's over-retaliation?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:32 PM
Feb 23

And the near-flattening of Gaza...I know, I know...it's a war zone.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
70. Yes. Yes. No. And yes, it's a war zone
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:38 PM
Feb 23

They look like that.

Netanyahu is doing what any other Israeli PM would be doing. He’s a monster and needs to be gone asap but don’t fool yourself that a different person would have done it much differently.

If they proceed into Rafah in the same way as north of the Wadi, then that will be an entirely different conversation. We’ll see. I know what a war zone looks like though and Gaza is depressingly similar to all the rest 😞

brush

(53,643 posts)
75. I didn't expect more. Why not get rid of warmonger Netanyahu?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:46 PM
Feb 23

His corrupt ass is as much an obstacle to a possible peace and a two-state solution as Hamas is as he wants to keep the war going as long as he can to stay out of jail.

Israel can do better than him.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
78. 1000% agreed.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:59 PM
Feb 23

I edited my answer so in fairness you have “more” there now.

Netanyahu is a monster but don’t fool yourself that any other Israeli PM would have done this much differently.

Rafah will be terrible. I’m hoping the IDF proceeds with a better strategy. We’ll see. I haven’t had a chance to see if civilians have been able to start moving north of the Wadi. It’s all going to be far more treacherous now for them to get into a different safe zone.

If you think it’s been bad so far, I predict it’s going to be worse going forward 😞

War is a horror

moniss

(4,098 posts)
58. It is why I pointed out that it can
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:57 PM
Feb 23

go both ways. In fact to a degree there are people's feelings who sort of get shunted aside when discussing this geographic region. I don't want to start a "who treats that group better" thing because that is not the purpose of me bringing it up. But I simply note for the record that historically there are others who have been living in this region for a very long time also. You have Christians, Bedouins, Samaritans and others who live throughout the region and have feelings for what is happening also. They have a right to be mentioned and to be heard about how all of this has affected them for years and still does and we should hear their views of where things go from here. Unfortunately most media wants to frame it all as just a matter affecting the two main groups of people.

TeamProg

(5,957 posts)
47. Hold on, no SINGLE poster here is attacking anyone's chosen religion, alright? I have seen NOTHING to suspect anyone
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:38 PM
Feb 23

of being a white supremist or hating any racial group or any group or faith.

Posters here have every right to comment on or sure, 'attack' any political group that is not the Democratic Party.

When you read criiticisms of Israel's political policies and actions, that is clearly not an attack on anyone's faith. I just don't see how anyone would see political criticism any other way, but that.



radius777

(3,635 posts)
128. Russia and Putin get hammered here as they should,
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 04:29 PM
Feb 24

especially for their actions against Ukraine and the targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure, just as Netanyahu is doing against the Palestinians.

Nobody says that our criticism of Putin's Russian nationalism is Russophobic - just as nobody should view criticism of Netanyahu's Israeli nationalism as anti-Semitic.

angrychair

(8,656 posts)
22. Soooooo
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:45 PM
Feb 23

Am I understanding you correctly that unless you've had an publicly expressed opinion on every world conflict in history you are not allowed to be critical of this one?
Because that is what it sounds like you are saying.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
31. Well, that's a strawman if I ever saw one
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:02 PM
Feb 23

And no, I don’t expect that.

But if you’re only just passionate about this conflict and have never ever made an accusation of genocide against the Saudis, or the Chinese, or the Turks or (insert actual genocidal regimes here), then I think it’s fair to question whether you’re an antisemite.

If you’re only accusing Jews of atrocities and have never ever pointed out far worse slaughters, suffering, cruelty, displacements, starvation of entire populations going on right now like the Kurds or Yemenis (the US plays a big part in those too!) then again, I think it’s fair to question whether you’re an antisemite.

If you make hundreds of posts blasting Jews and Israel and have never once brought up any other conflict then yes, I do think you’re opening yourself up to questions about being an antisemite.

MadameButterfly

(1,024 posts)
40. Well, hundreds of posts vs zero might be a problem but
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:18 PM
Feb 23

I expect you aren't really counting. I find one post enough to draw criticism.

A critical issue here is whether the US is funding the attacks. That makes Yemen more relevant than some of your other examples. There are many atrocities in the world for which we don't consider ourselves responsible and it would be unrealistic to comment on all. Not that it wouldn't be a good idea.

Crunchy Frog

(26,572 posts)
32. I've been accused of being an antisemite on here for being critical of Israel.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:05 PM
Feb 23

But the vast majority of my posts over the past two years have been about russia's war in Ukraine, and treatment of Ukrainians under occupation, and the only reason that I even found DU in the first place was because of how upset I was about our own invasion of Iraq.

So I guess that makes me an antisemitic, russophobic, anti-American.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
36. You've accused Russia of genocide in Ukraine?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:12 PM
Feb 23

I know many have been critical here of Russia but come on, the hyperbole and grotesque accusations of what is a war zone- a typical war zone - against Israel is outsized.

And questioning whether someone is anntisemitic doesn’t apply to everyone. I’ve never said that either

MadameButterfly

(1,024 posts)
42. Ukraine a typical war-zone? Reallyyy?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:22 PM
Feb 23

Are you objecting to the term genocide in regard to Russia in Ukraine? It was an optional unprovoked war and Putin is committing war crimes.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
48. Yes, the Ukraine war is actually fairly typical
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:39 PM
Feb 23

Every war is both the same and different. I truly don’t have the time nor inclination to get into a discussion of battle strategies tonight tbh.

My point was simply that the gross hyperbole directed solely at Israel and Jews, despite other conflicts going on right now, smacks of antisemitism.

And if people are suddenly finding it necessary to only slam the actions of one nation, out of all the other conflicts going on, then I believe it’s fair to question motives. Israel and Jews have been on the receiving end of thousands of years of unjustified bile (and worse). There’s ugly history there…

TeamProg

(5,957 posts)
65. I can think of no war that comes close to this destruction of Gaza and numbers of dead women and children along with
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:23 PM
Feb 23

blockades of human aid, food, water and hospitalization for the injured by a country that is supposed to be modern, civil and a U.S. ally.

You wrote: ""And if people are suddenly finding it necessary to only slam the actions of one nation, out of all the other conflicts going on, then I believe it’s fair to question motives. Israel and Jews have been on the receiving end of thousands of years of unjustified bile (and worse). There’s ugly history there…""

That is not the case, plenty of Russia / Ukraine discussions. The Yemen / Iran situation. China / Taiwan situation.
I think the Sudan crises have been going on for longer but neither country is a U.S. ally, that makes all the difference.

Hmm, what other invasions / attacks are happening right now?



yagotme

(2,909 posts)
118. "Typical war zone".
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 01:30 PM
Feb 24
It was an optional unprovoked war and Putin is committing war crimes.


If you look throughout history, most wars are optional, and a good attack plan uses surprise, aka "unprovoked". So, Russia's actions, especially with Putin at the helm, are "typical".

MadameButterfly

(1,024 posts)
131. But he is being charged with war crimes for attacking civilians
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 04:43 PM
Feb 24

This is not considered typical. Putin has a special talent for levelling whole cities because his troups are not well trained or equipped for strategic warfare and he doesn't care about human life.

Wars are not optional on the side that is defending itself from attack.


Crunchy Frog

(26,572 posts)
53. Russia's aims in Ukraine are explicitly genocidal.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:48 PM
Feb 23

And they're engaging in activities that are classified as genocide by the UN and by international treaties, such as the mass kidnapping of children for purposes of indoctrination and erasure of their Ukrainian national identity. So I absolutely believe that russia's objectives in Ukraine are genocidal in nature, and I don't believe that I've ever suggested otherwise.

I've never stated that I thought that Israel was engaged in genocide. (Like many others, I've mostly refrained from saying anything here), but Gaza hardly qualifies as a typical war zone. Gaza is a small strip of land that isn't part of any state and has no formal military. It has no control over its own borders, airspace, or coastal areas, those are all controlled by Israel. A lot of people believe that the number of civilian deaths and destruction of infrastructure are grossly disproportionate, and likely unnecessary to achieve the stated military aims (and I'm inclined to agree). Also, some of the Israeli discourse has been explicitly genocidal, and many people suspect that their aims are at least the ethnic cleansing of Gaza (and possibly the West Bank as well). So while it may be hyperbole, I don't think that it's completely outside of the bounds of reasonable discourse to talk about the possibility of genocide.

So I guess that now you could probably get away with calling me an antisemitic russophobe.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
59. If my comments don't apply to you, then fine
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:59 PM
Feb 23

I’m not searching posting history.

I mostly agree with John Spencer, an urban warfare expert, who’s done detailed analysis of the Hamas war.

It truly is different in that Hamas is a death cult that desires civilian deaths and has worked that into their strategy.

The actual warfare is much more difficult than Vietnam which similarly used extensive tunnels, because of the nature of Hamas’ use of civilians. But the warfare is similar.

I would have advised a different strategy for Israel but I’m not in the IDF. Biden and Blinken were extremely aggressive trying to get Netanyahu to take a different approach but nobody's in the mood to listen to outsiders there.

It’s not a genocide in Gaza (yet).

Putin however is definitely attempting another Russian genocide of Ukrainians. We agree on that

Sky Jewels

(6,957 posts)
80. Editing comment -- nevermind.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 09:07 PM
Feb 23

Last edited Fri Feb 23, 2024, 09:54 PM - Edit history (1)

[I mistook the DUer I replied to for a different poster ... mea culpa.]

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
82. Where have I ever said that? (hint: I haven't)
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 09:33 PM
Feb 23

Ukraine is fighting for its very survival against a genocidal army that’s determined to destroy it.

I completely agree with you on that

Sky Jewels

(6,957 posts)
83. Okay, I'm sorry. I think I got you mixed up with another DUer who has a similar "A" name.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 09:53 PM
Feb 23

I will edit my comment.

Chainfire

(17,406 posts)
109. You must have mystic powers to know who has criticized who over their lives.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 11:37 AM
Feb 24

I am criticizing Israel for what I think is a great injustice. I criticized the US for what I have thought were great injustices in the past, so look in your crystal ball and tell me if I am anti-American too. Your argument is grasping at straws to defend the undependable.


cab67

(2,990 posts)
133. I see your point, but...
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 04:51 PM
Feb 24

It misses the more general point that one can criticize the Israeli government without criticizing Jewish people or Judaism more broadly.

A lot of us who sometimes criticize the Netanyahu administration were even more critical of the abomination that was the Trump administration. That didn’t mean we’re anti-American.

senseandsensibility

(16,832 posts)
18. I usually don't wade in on these threads
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:35 PM
Feb 23

but many Jewish people I follow on twitter and some here on DU are all for criticizing Israel and especially Bebe. He is far from a popular leader. So I think there's more to it than that.

Bucky

(53,889 posts)
21. Israel has a right to defend itself!
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:45 PM
Feb 23

Even if that means killing thousands of innocent Palestinians to get a few hundred Hamas fighters who are over in different buildings.

If you think otherwise, you're in company with these two antisemites



The sad reality is that Hamas wants Netanyahu to go hog wild and slaughter thousands of Gazans and Bibi is giving them exactly what they want. No one wants to call that antisemitic for some reason, but it's not the first time he's helped Hamas (warning: link goes to a potentially anti-semitic website)

Heavy subject, maybe I should ease the mood with some light entertainment:

TeamProg

(5,957 posts)
72. Huh, what? Where is that here? To be clear, that is what we're talking about. Being accused of antisemitism here on D U
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:42 PM
Feb 23

Sky Jewels

(6,957 posts)
79. Could you point us to anti-Semitic comments you've seen on DU?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 09:02 PM
Feb 23

Because I haven't seen any. I've seen a lot of people PRETENDING that criticism of Israel is the same as criticizing all Jews. It is not. And you know that.

Marcus IM

(2,134 posts)
27. Same here.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 06:58 PM
Feb 23

Never been called an anti-semite until recently. Was here.

I am a Jewish born Cuban-American.

I've cut back on DU since then.

That and the stalkers gaslighting about my country birth.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
30. That's odd.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:01 PM
Feb 23

While I've never called out Israel (it's a whole country ferchrissakes), I have criticized the Likud Party, Netanyahu and the punk Gaza settlers. I've never been called anti-Semitic.

Wonder why?

TheKentuckian

(25,008 posts)
90. I'll crawl out on a limb and jump around on it and say I've never had a good word for Netanyahu or Likud
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 10:52 PM
Feb 23

I will grant that I do believe that if the Arabs including the Palestinians were as keen as they make out now on the 1967 borders that they should not waged a war of agression to erase them and any conquered territory is forfeited and the attacked victor can do as they will.

If that war or any that preceded it went the other way we have actual genocide and no Israel and that was somehow fair game so to me I don't see how the Palestinians have any reason or right to be anything other than contrite rather than going with a decades long terror campaign absurdly in pursuit of the middle east's version of The South Shall Rise Again.

I have sympathy for the people as fellow sentients but their "cause" is a bunch of bullshit in my book though I have traditionally supported the two state solution anyway because there are millions of people now welcome nowhere so they have to go somewhere and be something other than "a nation of martyrs" getting by on grievance and charity but I increasingly believe it would result in a a haven for terrorism and extremist theocracy which is in no one's interests.

Settlers are unwise and many are at least violent assholes with some well past just that but they have a case that they have justification to stead.

Making bets on bad hands doesn't give you any license to take back your chips.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
55. It's the new McCarthyism. But the youth/PoC/smart folks won't be silenced.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 07:51 PM
Feb 23
https://newrepublic.com/article/178406/pro-palestinian-speech-sliding-mccarthyism
https://archive.is/T9In1 (no paywall)
The New Republic
New Red Scare? Are We Sliding Toward McCarthyism? by Emily Tamkin
In the wake of Hamas’s October 7th attacks, efforts to silence pro-Palestinian speech are ramping up.

The mood in the wake of Oct. 7 has been described in some corners as a kind of new Red Scare or new McCarthyism, this time intended to ferret out not Soviet or Communist sympathy, but pro-Palestinian speech.
There are, of course, real differences between our moment and the Red Scare, in which the state itself put the onus on thousands to prove their innocence and loyalty to this country. Still, civil rights and free speech advocates are not exactly short on moments to cite when expressing their concerns: The presidents of Harvard and the University of Pennsylvania stepped down from their positions after failing to offer full-throated condemnation of student protests after Oct. 7 at a congressional hearing. Palestine Legal, a nonprofit that offers “legal support to the Palestine solidarity movement,” described an “exponential surge” in their caseload. Palestinian cultural events have been canceled across the country. “Doxing trucks” pulled up to university campuses to list the names and show the faces of students who have called for divestment from Israel, among other things. Pro-Palestinian speech has long been targeted by critics. But those alleging a new McCarthyism argue that the effort to silence pro-Palestinian voices is now being done with a new fervor and intensity.


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/anti-zionism-not-anti-semitism/675888/
https://archive.is/LKPPL (no paywall)
The Atlantic
Don’t Equate Anti-Zionism With Anti-Semitism
by Adam Serwer

Nevertheless, it is a cruel absurdity to demand of Palestinians that they not only acquiesce to Israel’s existence, but also actively support the idea of an ethnically defined state that excludes them from equal citizenship, one that was made possible only by the flight and expulsion of 700,000 of their forebears in the Nakba of 1948. It is not anti-Semitic to want equal rights in the land you share with others, and to oppose a political arrangement that has resulted in what Israeli human-rights groups justifiably describe as a form of apartheid. While Jewish Israelis retain their rights wherever they go within Israel’s borders, Palestinians are subject to draconian restrictions on their lives and freedoms depending on their location.


In spite of this attempt to silence and gaslight, as the articles indicate, there has been a clear shift in how the 'smart people' and young people feel about this issue, with polls tending to show left-leaning voters as viewing this 'war' as genocide. Unconditional Zionism and Judeo-Christian exceptionalism as the default position of the west is being questioned by many - especially considering that Israel is ruled by a far-right authoritarian regime that has made no secret of its theofascist intentions. Western support for Israel should be contingent upon the Israeli government's acceptance of a solution (whether two separate states or one combined state) that recognizes the full humanity and rights of the Palestinian people - full stop - with the west taking a more neutral position in the Middle East that shows just as much respect for the Islamic world as we do the Judeo-Christian.

SouthernDem4ever

(6,617 posts)
125. As far are the Youth/POC are concerned, this will be their world going forward
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 04:17 PM
Feb 24

I hope they can also learn about the last 150 years and not just listen to propaganda to formulate their opinions or they are doomed to repeat it, or worse.

SarahD

(1,147 posts)
61. You seem to be in good company.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:01 PM
Feb 23

Many Israelis and Jews around the world are speaking out against Netanyahu and his right wing cabinet.

Sky Jewels

(6,957 posts)
77. Yep. It's ridiculous.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 08:57 PM
Feb 23

So many people here on DU willfully conflate the two concepts. You don't think Israel should be slaughtering tens of thousands of innocents and destroying vast swaths of Gaza? Well, that automatically means you hate all Jews and sympathize with Hamas.

It's utter bullshit.

mvd

(65,150 posts)
95. Both sides have bad leaders
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 11:22 PM
Feb 23

and innocents suffer. Depressing situation. A two state solution is best but with the current regimes may be hard to get.

Beastly Boy

(9,171 posts)
81. When you criticize Israel and their government, do you make a distinction between the two?
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 09:09 PM
Feb 23

Or do you literally criticize "Israel and their government"? When you criticize Israel, do you ever acknowledge that "they" in "their government" include Palestinian Arabs, Bedouin Arabs, Druze Arabs, Bahai Arabs, Assyrians and Armenians, among others? No?

Then, every single time you talk about "Israel and their government", you must be referring to the Jews, and branding them guilty by association.

Which makes me wonder what your definition of antisemitism is.

...Did it ever occur to you to criticize Gazans and their government in the same breath?

viva la

(3,258 posts)
87. I am asking this seriously--
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 10:33 PM
Feb 23

because I really want to be able to discuss this without angering people I respect.

What would be a good way to voice concern for the Gazans and raise questions about the Israeli military actions?

I do feel silenced, but part of that is because I'm pretty sure I will make my points in a clumsy way that offends. What's a better way to address the issues?

Beastly Boy

(9,171 posts)
105. Not exactly what I addressed in my post, but your question illustrates how to not voice your concern or
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 11:16 AM
Feb 24

raise your question.

From the outset, the "and" in your question that combines the two issues into a single sentence implies that the presumption of one being directly connected to the other to be taken as a given. The implication is that the latter is the sole cause for the former, and this presumption forms the unassailable foundation on which the narrative that follows is based. Note that you made no distinction between "IDF" and "Israeli" military actions. This would be equivalent to referring to Hamas military actions as "Gazan military actions", and I doubt you would consider using this kind of phraseology. Perhaps this is not what you intended, but this is how it comes across, and this type of selectivity is typical of what angers people. Likewise, while outside of your specific question, this type of narrative tends to be peppered with arbitrary and fallacious use of terms like "apartheid", "genocide", "colonialism", "imperialism", etc., which are also offensive, but since you may already be aware of it, I will not go into that.

A good way to voice concern for the Gazans is to be honest about its causes. Gazans have been ruled by an oppressive militant Islamist regime for decades, a regime that in the best of times made their lives miserable, a regime that consistently expressed utter contempt for their subjects and acted it out in the most cynical ways imaginable. The details of their atrocities towards Gazans are well documented, so I will not go into them. What is clear, however, is that they are the cause of your concern (and mine) for the Gazans, and the ensuing deaths and displacement of Gazans is the. effect. IDF is a mere instrument that Hamas chose to inflict death and destruction on their subjects that they were supposed to protect instead of exposing them to all the dangers of a war zone which was deliberately and cynically chosen by Hamas to include civilians. A narrative that arbitrarily begins with IDF bombing Gaza dismisses, absent of any reason or explanation, the whole context to the current conflict, and this is what I find offensive.

Likewise, to isolate IDF actions from the context in which those actions are taking place is to disregard the entirety of the issue you are seeking answers to. I find plenty to criticize IDF for without offending anyone: their reliance on the woefully outdated tactics of the "shock and awe" doctrine, lapses in military intelligence, difficulties in formulating realistic military objectives, etc. But blaming IDF for the humanitarian crisis is an undeserved criticism: the responsibility for that lies way outside the IDF mission. Similarly, IDF is blameless for going after legitimate military targets, be they located in residential areas, schools or hospitals: the responsibility for that is squarely on the Hamas militants who chose the locations for their military assets.

The Magistrate

(95,240 posts)
107. Well Said, Sir
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 11:25 AM
Feb 24

I would point out one other thing which colors this, and the question of what is and is not Anti-Semitism in critiquing Israel.

It's not a pleasant thing to realize, but contemptuous hate for Jews, and resolve to drive out Jews from Muslim lands, or reduce them to their prior subjugation there, is the root of Palestinian nationalism, clear from the first pogroms after the Great War, and continued to the present day.

I understand why people do not wish to face this. Still, it must be.


"Reality is that which, when you cease to credit it, persists."



yagotme

(2,909 posts)
120. Another possible angle to look at, is:
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 01:42 PM
Feb 24

Where and what are the top Hamas leaders doing. Living off the stolen funds of their citizens, right? So, if they start a war with Israel, Israel kills a lot of the Gazans, destroys buildings, then Hamas can go to the world with their hand out, asking for MORE money to graft from. A political/monetary/psychological victory for Hamas. (Fewer people to feed, means more of the aid can go to the leaders.)

viva la

(3,258 posts)
135. What does IDF stand for?
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 07:59 PM
Feb 24

I'm not sure why you singled that out. Isn't it the military of Israel?

But I apologize for the mistake and withdraw.

moniss

(4,098 posts)
116. I understand
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 01:11 PM
Feb 24

your reluctance but be assured you're not alone. I do speak out for facts and decry bad behavior by all parties in the region and globally and have been labeled and attacked in the past. Good Lord I remember one fellow who went on for days and days. Unfortunately on this whole issue there are those who will go on a long explanation falsely claiming how you or I are being this or that. They will go on and on making statements about the Palestinians, the history of the matters etc. and not realize, maybe don't even care, that they are the ones using words in a false way or bringing to themselves a negative implication. As I'm sure you know there is justified criticism for all parties in the Middle East and around the world.

I am sorry that I have no better answer for you but it is a highly emotional situation of many decades and some people want to lay all of that wherever they can. Even onto people who just wanted to have an open discussion, obtain views/facts and better understand going forward. I am also sorry to note that since your post yesterday nobody else has responded with encouragement for you. You were perfectly responsible and respectful in your post and you said nothing wrong either in content or phrasing. Good discussion needs more like you.

viva la

(3,258 posts)
137. Thank you. I was a bit taken aback.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 08:04 PM
Feb 24

But as you say, it's just too emotional and full of conflict from centuries past.

Maybe the truth is, there simply is no way to discuss this, and no way to fix it either.

madaboutharry

(40,176 posts)
93. Thank you for this reasoned post, Beastly Boy.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 11:09 PM
Feb 23

I have come to the conclusion that a vast majority of people do not know what antisemitism is or what it looks like. They don’t recognize it, even in their own words.
Somehow now Jews are the one minority that people feel free to school and lecture on what they are allowed to find offensive, insulting, and demeaning. Which is in itself antisemitic.
I want to give people the benefit of the doubt and believe they don’t know better. Maybe some, others not so much.

Butterflylady

(3,536 posts)
89. I stand with Lunabell.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 10:40 PM
Feb 23

Because I believe in the ten commandments, especially the one that says "Thou shall not kill." And I am not a Christian. I'm am agnostic.

Mosby

(16,241 posts)
97. "Thou shall not kill" is a mistranslation of the hebrew.
Fri Feb 23, 2024, 11:58 PM
Feb 23

לֹא תִרְצָח

Thou shall not murder.

Jewish law allows for lawful killing in defense of oneself.

https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm

Dorian Gray

(13,476 posts)
99. Criticism of Israel's actions in the war on Gaza is
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 12:10 AM
Feb 24

important. Pushback on the damage is important.

Why would anybody call you anti-semitic for that?

What I would call antisemitic in this discussion: Insinuating or outright saying that 10/07 was justified. That the people who died deserved to bc they were zionist. That zionism is evil. That the Jews made 10/07 happen or let it happen to justify what is happening now. I would include anything that indicates that Jewish people are responsible for all the ills in the world.

The Magistrate

(95,240 posts)
100. That's A Good Summary, Sir
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 12:32 AM
Feb 24

I would add only this: claiming what one Jew has done, all Jews are accountable for.

LeftInTX

(24,904 posts)
103. Often missing from discussions are how Palestinian refugees are treated by Lebanon
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 10:40 AM
Feb 24

They are treated much worse in Lebanon than they are treated in Israel. Lebanon doesn't want them in their country, so they are stuck in refugee camps. They aren't allowed to become citizens. They aren't allowed to work.

Some people leave and get citizenships in other countries.

Obviously Lebanon isn't bombing them, but the Lebanese regime has treated them so horrifically, they don't have the opportunity to become terrorists. There are no tunnels. There is no smuggling of mass weapons. Lebanese guards control everything. They are stuck in UNWRA refugee camps and can't leave. Lebanon controls all building supplies and limits concrete. They can't work. They sit in squalid conditions doing drugs all day. Middle Eastern people are proud people. My grandmother would have been appalled.


https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230817-palestine-camp-in-lebanon-no-one-is-welcome/

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-reason-for-the-lack-of-discussion-about-Palestinian-refugee-camps-in-Lebanon

&ab_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/18/shatila-refugee-camp-lebanon-generations-of-palestinians-lost-their-futures
Ever since the displacement of 700,000 Palestinians in 1948, many have been living in dejection and squalor in camps like Shatila in Beirut. Is this the grim future the people of Gaza could now be facing?

When the first wave of Palestinian refugees arrived, they constituted about 10% of the entire population of Lebanon, and the Lebanese political and security establishment feared that the new arrivals would disturb the balance of power in the sectarian state, and challenge the Maronite Christian dominance. The army’s intelligence department was tasked with controlling the refugee camps through harsh surveillance, intimidation and repression.

For nearly two decades, most Palestinian refugees in Lebanon lived in wretched hovels of stones and wooden boards, with corrugated zinc sheeting and canvas roofs. Initially some of the refugees were suspicious of any permanent structure built by the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA), firm in their belief that their exile was temporary. But even when they were disabused of this idea, the Lebanese authorities prevented crucial building materials, such as cement, from entering the camps. They would not allow the refugees to construct anything that looked too permanent. This policy was ostensibly to “encourage the refugees to return” – as if they could simply do so by choice. Lebanon also imposed, and continues to impose, severe restrictions on the refugees’ basic rights to work. The only available employment outside the camps was casual menial labour, where exploitation was common.


https://pbswisconsin.org/watch/pov/pov-a-world-not-ours-i-quit/

https://pbswisconsin.org/watch/pov/pov-world-not-ours-ain-el-helweh/


Hence, when we criticize Israel, we fail to criticize other countries who create worse conditions for Palestinians. (Obviously the war is a different topic) We fail to criticize how Bashar Assad chased the Palestinian refugees out of Syria. (He ethnically cleansed them). However, when a rumor gets started that Israel wants to displace Palestinians..OMG. Assad did it and no one cared. I didn't see panic going up all over DU over Assad.

At least Gaza had a worker program with Israel, it had nice hospitals and universities. Palestinians in Lebanon have nothing. No Universities. No hospitals. No nothing. No rights. Stuck in prison like refugee camps using drugs and living on UNWRA relief for generations. No smuggling tunnels. No Hamas. No billions of dollars from Qatar.

LexVegas

(6,008 posts)
106. I always think its unfair when people say someone is a racist or bigot simply based on what they say. nt
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 11:19 AM
Feb 24

Elessar Zappa

(13,837 posts)
108. I have no problem with anyone criticizing the Israeli government.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 11:28 AM
Feb 24

What I have a problem with is people excusing Hamas’s actions, including their use of sexual violence. It’s happened on this very site. And then there’s those who compare the situation in Gaza to the Holocaust which is absolutely ridiculous and insulting.

Cthulu on call

(6 posts)
122. I 100% agree
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 02:20 PM
Feb 24

If on this site fight against right-wing theocracy in this country, I see no reason not to fight against it in Isreal. The hypocrisy of it all. Isreal has been in control of the far right in Isreal for decades, he's gutted their court system, concentrated power in the administrative parts. Isreal is no longer a democracy, but a far right Theocratic state.

100% willing to commit war crimes and kill hundreds of thousands. Call it what you will, but blind support of Netanyahu does a disservice to Isreal and its people, who want to end the conflict

lonely bird

(1,669 posts)
124. I have no use for Bibi and no use for Hamas
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 03:13 PM
Feb 24

I care about the people of the Middleeast but the governments/quasi-governments I have little to no use for.

Lunabell

(6,012 posts)
126. They are both evil incarnate.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 04:23 PM
Feb 24

Civilian targets are war crimes. In both sides. And netenyahu is as evil as any other political monster, like putin.

lapucelle

(18,160 posts)
134. Israel is not targeting civilians.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 04:51 PM
Feb 24
President Biden and SOS Blinken have both called on Israel to do more to maximize civilian protection.


==========================



Blinken sees 'extraordinary' opportunity for Israel to normalise ties with neighbors

MUNICH, Feb 17 (Reuters) - There is "an extraordinary opportunity" in the coming months for Israel to normalise ties with its Arab neighbors, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Saturday, while also emphasizing the need for the creation of a Palestinian state.

The top U.S. diplomat said there were genuine efforts led by Arab countries to revitalize the Palestinian Authority so it can be more effective in representing the Palestinians.

"Virtually every Arab country now genuinely wants to integrate Israel into the region to normalize relations...to provide security commitments and assurances so that Israel can feel more safe," Blinken said during a panel discussion at the annual Munich Security Conference.

snip======================

The Biden administration has been working to secure a mega-deal that will see ties between Saudi Arabia and Israel normalize. The Kingdom and other Arab countries are seeking the creation of a Palestinian state as part of the deal.

Washington is also working to achieve a deal to secure the release of Israeli hostages kidnapped by Hamas on Oct. 7 when the group crossed the border into Israel and mounted one of the deadliest attacks on the country in decades.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/blinken-extraordinary-opportunity-israel-be-integrated-into-middle-east-2024-02-17/

cab67

(2,990 posts)
132. I said the same thing not that long ago.
Sat Feb 24, 2024, 04:44 PM
Feb 24

It led to accusations of - you guessed it - antisemitism. And when I mentioned that my wife and daughter are Jewish, at least one person implied I was making the ‘I have black friends’ claim often made by racists.

It became so offensive, I deleted the whole thing.

I draw a clear distinction between people and their government. I’ve been highly critical of the US government at times. That doesn’t make me anti-American.

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