Bernie Sanders on Gaza, genocide and Trump

[Donkees]

Feb 22, 2024

In this episode of Ways to Change the World, the US Senator tells Krishnan Guru-Murthy why the US should stop its funding for Netanyahu’s “horrific war against the Palestinian people”, why a second Trump victory could foment right-wing movements across the world with disastrous consequences, and why taking on the ruling class is a necessary but “long, long process”.

[Oopsie Daisy]

1. Oh, Bernie. It's a war against Hamas, not "against the Palestinian people."

And, Hamas could end this tonight.

[Uncle Joe]

2. Well that's good because the two month old Palestinian baby that just starved to death

won't be threating Israel anymore.

Netanyahu nipped that one in the bud.

[Oopsie Daisy]

3. LOL! Hamas is putting civilians in danger and sacrificing innocent people

This is a righteous war. Hamas must be destroyed, and they will be.

>> Netanyahu nipped that one in the bud.
That's a rather simplistic interpretation and characterization of events. Reasonable and rational onlookers correctly blame Hamas, not Israel, not Netanyahu.

[Uncle Joe]

4. Your laughter is telling. n/t

[Oopsie Daisy]

5. Really? How so? What does it tell you?

[Uncle Joe]

6. It tells me that's you're easily humored by tragedy. n/t

[Oopsie Daisy]

7. Ah... personal insults. Okay.

Goodbye.

[Uncle Joe]

9. Not an insult, it was my subjective observation of your lol on that subject. n/t

[Oopsie Daisy]

12. LOL! Stop it. It was personal attack not a "subjective observation".

Have a nice day.

[kwolf68]

112. Must not be critical of the righteous Israeli war

Every death is justified, because "Hamas". The "end goal" is to "get rid of Hamas", even though no one has actually defined what that means. Ergo, Israel can just attack anyone they want under the auspices that "hamas is there". Meanwhile American money pours into Israel. I trust when the USA gets more involved in these land holy wars Isreal will send us a bunch of money. Our nation is drowing in debt, yet lets fund this war with no end. Oh yea 15K+ children dead. But Hamas was in their hospital rooms. Case closed. See how easy it is to shut down debate.

[questionseverything]

53. Anyone that laughs at babies deaths is a monster

[Oopsie Daisy]

56. Who is "laughing at babies deaths"? Who is the "monster"?

The only thing I'm laughing at are the posters and politicians who try to place the blame on everyone EXCEPT where it actually belongs... and their absurd pretzel logic.

[al bupp]

15. Not to this reasonable and rational onlooker

Israel's response has been grossly disproportional. There is nothing righteous in the intentional starvation of essentially the entire civilian population that literally has nowhere to run. This is why I assert that it's a genocide in progress.

[Oopsie Daisy]

17. War is not meant to be "proportional" it's mean to defeat the enemy.

Hamas is to blame for civilian deaths.

War is not some sporting event, where dead people are points, and at some juncture 'enough' have been accumulated so the war ends. But that does seem to be how many guide their understanding of it.

War is the attempt of one party to a dispute to impose by violence what it cannot secure by purchase or reason. It ends when the party first resorting to violence secures its object against the violent objection of the other, or acknowledges its violence has failed to do so, and ceases to fight.

In war one does not so much strive to kill people in order to end their lives, as one kills people to convince other people they'll be next if they don't give up, or flee, or at the very least keep their heads down a while.

It is true that if one party to a war fields a soldiery who actively courts death, killing a good deal more is required than in the average run: such soldieries are not common to history.

It is also obvious that such a death-desiring soldiery, establishing itself in facilities and fighting positions beside, under, or over the dwellings of non-combatants, is going get a great many persons killed in course of war against them, who will suffer for no better reason than that they were in the way of people fighting the men here to fight till they died.

I suppose you might say that is worth it, if you favor the resolution of the dispute they are contending for, certainly no one opposed to it would agree.

If people do take up for a side which fields soldiery of this sort, and disposes them in that manner, they ought at least to be clear about what the goal actually sought by that side is.

[al bupp]

20. Actually, it is according to the Geneva Conventions

Civilians are persons who are not members of the armed forces of a party to the conflict.
Civilians enjoy protection under international humanitarian law. Individual civilians lose this
protection for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

The willful killing or murder of civilians occurs where a party to an armed conflict, in the
context of and associated with the conflict:

 Intentionally kills one or more persons; and
 Such persons are civilians who are taking no direct part in hostilities; and
 The perpetrator is aware of the factual circumstances establishing this civilian
status.

Civilian deaths resulting from a necessary and proportional attack against a military
objective do not constitute a violation. (Emphasis mine.)

From: https://elearning.un.org/CONT/GEN/CS/UNHR_V3/Module_01/story_content/external_files/Examples%20of%20definitions%20of%20humanitarian%20law%20violations.pdf

[Oopsie Daisy]

21. Hamas is violating the Geneva convention, not Israel.

Hamas is killing civilians.

[al bupp]

22. How many civilians has Hamas killed?

Let's see...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel–Hamas war
As of 18 February 2024, over 30,000 people (28,473 Palestinian[1] and 1,410 Israeli[9]) have been killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 88 journalists (83 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 136 UNRWA aid workers.[10][11]

On 7 October 2023, 1,139 Israelis and foreign nationals, including 764 civilians, were killed, and 248 persons taken hostage during the initial attack on Israel from the Gaza Strip.[2][12][13] Since then, over 28,473 Palestinians (the majority of whom were women and minors) in the Gaza Strip have been killed according to the Gaza Health Ministry. The Gaza Health Ministry does not distinguish between combatant and civilian casualties in its reports. The IDF estimated 12,000 Hamas combatants were killed as of 19 February 2024.[14][15] A further 320 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank by Israel military and settlers.[16] Casualties have also occurred in other parts of Israel, as well as in southern Lebanon, and Syria.[17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=Since%20then%2C%20over%2028%2C473%20Palestinians,civilian%20casualties%20in%20its%20reports.

So, if we subtract the IDF's estimates 12,000 Hamas combatants from the total 28,473 Palestinians killed in the Gaza Strip, that leaves ~16,000 Palestinian civilians killed versus 764 Israeli civilians, which is approximately a 20 to 1 ratio, making the IDF twenty times more the genocidal than Hamas, and its response grossly disproportional.

[Oopsie Daisy]

26. "according to Hamas" ...

Hamas is to blame. Once Hamas is defeated, then the will cease putting innocent civilians in harm's way.

[al bupp]

35. It is not an entirely unreasonable estimate of Palestinian civilian deaths...

... given the scale of the destruction in the Gaza Strip as determined by satellite images. Even if it's been inflated by 100%, it's still ten time larger than the number of Israeli civilian deaths since October 7th. Neither you nor Israel can justifiably blame Hamas for the disproportional civilian deaths that the IDF has intentionally caused in the course of their invasion of Gaza.

[Oopsie Daisy]

37. Uh-huh. Okay.

Wars aren't fought like that... where one side just packs up and leaves and declares everything "even-steven" when both sides have the exact same number of causalities. And it's actually Hamas that is "intentionally" causing civilian deaths by putting them in harm's way. So, yes, I can justifiably blame Hamas. I'm just amazed at how many people here are defending Hamas and holding them blameless. It boggles the mind.

[al bupp]

109. It boggles my mind just how much hatred has built up between both sides of this conflict

I'm amazed that some think that more killing is the solution. Yes, both sides are to blame. However, it hardly a war against relatively equal nation states. It is an asymmetric conflict.

Much like the conflicts between the US and the native peoples that preceded it, or the one in Vietnam, one side enjoys an overwhelmingly dominant military position. The other side resorts to the means that they have available to them, but typically w/ much less devastation than can be done by the dominant side.

Of course this is called terrorism by the militarily dominant side, as if a bomb on a bus was somehow more terrible the one dropping from the sky. They are both terrible, and the one dropping from the sky, which kills and mains likely an order of magnitude more, is clearly more terrible.

[EX500rider]

64. "disproportional civilian deaths"

Pearl Harbor, the attack killed 2,403 U.S. personnel, including 68 civilians.

Just one bombing raid on one night:

On the night of 9–10 March 1945, 334 B-29s took off to raid with 279 of them dropping 1,665 tons of bombs on Tokyo.
Approximately 15.8 square miles (4,090 ha) of the city were destroyed and some 100,000 people are estimated to have died.

[al bupp]

84. Yes, the fire bombing of Tokyo was also a war crime, in my opinion

You cannot justify one war crime with another.

[malaise]

66. Palestinian civilian deaths are between 29,000 and

30,000.
Nothing justifies this response.

[EX500rider]

97. No they are not, are you saying 0 hamas have died?

IDF says over 10,000 dead hamas, but let me guess, you trust the hamas issued numbers but not the IDF ones?

[NickB79]

41. That's not what proportionality means in this context

A military response must be proportional to the threat it poses, not proportional to the number of casualties on either side. So, it's perfectly proportional to call in an air strike on a dug-in enemy position that kills dozens if they are firing on your position. Otherwise, every military conflict in the world would be judged as in violation of the Geneva Convention.

For example, the US killed something like 2 MILLION Japanese soldiers and civilians in response to a couple thousand dead US civilians at Pearl Harbor. Not a violation of Geneva.

[EX500rider]

68. 68 dead civilians at Pearl Harbor

After which they got "Before We're Through With 'em, the Japanese Language Will be Spoken Only in Hell!” -Adm. William F. Halsey.

[David__77]

87. We also got concentration camps in the USA.

[EX500rider]

62. Were all these conflicts (mostly with vastly more civilians deaths) also "genocide" or is Israel special somehow?

[TheKentuckian]

115. Proportional in this context means necessary to met the objective not tit for tat

Proportional as you would allude has probably never happened, not even Granada.

[obamanut2012]

31. Well yes, it is, as per International Law that came about because of civilans being savaged during WW II

[Basic LA]

19. LOL to a starved infant!

Yikes, a tough crowd.

[Oopsie Daisy]

70. Hi! Welcome to DU!

[William769]

77. Since you like LOLing so much.

[Oopsie Daisy]

80. Hello! xoxo

[brush]

95. Netanyahu is as much an obstagle to peace an a two-state solution as Hamas is.

And I suspect Netanyahu wants to keep the war going as long as possible so his corruption won't finally be dealt with by the state. And Israel won't do that while it's at war.

[Oopsie Daisy]

98. I've heard this conspiracy theory before. I'm not buying it.

[brush]

99. What, that he's not corrupt/taken bribes? If you don't know that, you're the only one.

[Oopsie Daisy]

100. No, now you're putting words into my mouth. That's not what I said and you know it. Stop.

[brush]

102. My turn...LOL.

[sarisataka]

8. Not just Netanyahu keeping food out of Palestinian mouths

Hamas murders boy trying to get food

Hamas takes what they want and the leftovers can go to the people. But those stories sink like stones.

[Uncle Joe]

10. That is tragic, but it's also a micro comparison to macro events.

[sarisataka]

13. Hamas is the macro

They started this version of the conflict with an attack that one would expect to read in the accounts of the Huns and Vandals, not the modern day.
Hamas controls Gaza and what happens in it, except where Israel has (temporarily) ejected them.
Hamas will take what they want without regard for the rest of the Palestinian population.
If anyone tries to dispute them, Hamas has no reservations about killing the Palestinians, or letting them die. To them it is just one more body for their health ministry to report.

The micro is the macro; do not try to use scale to excuse Hamas.

[Uncle Joe]

14. Hamas is an estimated 30 thousand members in a population of 2.3 million

in the world's largest open air prison for over a decade a half.

Hamas which you and I both agree doesn't care about the Palestinians have operated as the inside guards in this closed, entropic system that Netanyahu has created while the IDF was operating as the outside guards.

Netanyahu helped to enable Hamas' rise to power in order to offset a secular Palestinian Authority to govern Gaza.

Even before October 7th Gaza wasn't getting the supplies it needed.

The ultimate life and death decision making power in that region is not Hamas, it's Israel and that's macro.

[sarisataka]

16. You are ignoring two key facts

1- Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza. Israel has external control (although see fact 2) but Hamas runs the day to day governance. Even the UN and NGOs admit they must get Hamas approval for everything they do in Gaza.

2- Israel is not the only land border with Gaza. Egypt shares a border but has been conspicuously unwilling to be a conduit for additional supplies

[Uncle Joe]

18. Well here are a couple more

(snip)

“As the occupying power, under international law, Israel has a clear obligation to ensure the basic needs of Gaza’s population are met. Israel has not only woefully failed to provide for Gazans’ basic needs, but it has also been blocking and impeding the passage of sufficient aid into the Gaza Strip, in particular to the north which is virtually inaccessible, in a clear show of contempt for the ICJ ruling and in flagrant violation of its obligation to prevent genocide.”

“The scale and gravity of the humanitarian catastrophe caused by Israel’s relentless bombardment, destruction and suffocating siege puts more than two million Palestinians of Gaza at risk of irreparable harm.”

The supplies entering Gaza before the ICJ order have been a drop in the ocean compared to the needs for the last 16 years. Yet, in the three weeks following the ICJ order, the number of trucks entering Gaza decreased by about a third, from an average of 146 a day in the three weeks prior, to an average of 105 a day over the subsequent three weeks. Before 7 October, on average, about 500 trucks entered Gaza every day, carrying aid and commercial goods, including things like food, water, animal fodder, medical supplies and fuel. Even that quantity fell far short of meeting people’s needs. In the three weeks after the ICJ ruling, smaller quantities of fuel, which Israel tightly controls, made it into Gaza. The only crossings that Israel has allowed to open were also opened on fewer days, further demonstrating Israel’s disregard for the provisional measures. Aid workers reported multiple challenges, but said that Israel was refusing to take obvious steps to improve the situation.

In the case it submitted to the ICJ, South Africa argued that Israel’s deliberate denial of humanitarian aid to Palestinians could constitute one of the prohibited acts under the Genocide Convention by “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.”

(snip)

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-defying-icj-ruling-to-prevent-genocide-by-failing-to-allow-adequate-humanitarian-aid-to-reach-gaza/#:~:text=Before%207%20October%2C%20on%20average,short%20of%20meeting%20people's%20needs.



I didn't see any charges against Egypt for denying aid.

It has been Israeli drones flying over Gaza night and day for years, Israel has limited Gaza's access to the sea for fishing as well.

Israel is the overwhelming power for that region and has the most control over macro events, including the delivery of supplies; water, food, and medicine.

[sarisataka]

23. You won't see any charges against Egypt

For the same reason, you won't see charges against China for their genocide of the Uyghur or against Myanmar for theirs against the Rohingya.

[Uncle Joe]

32. The United States isn't arming China either.

If we were, I have no doubt there would be protests against them.

[sarisataka]

34. Which has zero to do

With third countries filing charges with the ICJ

[Uncle Joe]

38. For everything there is a season,

we dominate a large part of the world.



“The day will come when those responsible for these appalling acts will have to answer for them.”

ANTONY J. BLINKEN
U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE

The United States remains committed to seeking accountability for those responsible for the genocide, crimes against humanity, and growing number of atrocities committed across Burma as we stand with and pursue justice for survivors and victims. We also support the people of Burma in their desire to pursue a path to democracy for their country.

On March 21, 2022, following a rigorous factual and legal analysis, the Secretary determined that members of the Burmese military committed genocide and crimes against humanity against Rohingya. Since the Holocaust, the United States has concluded only seven other times that genocide was committed. This determination marks the eighth.

Read the transcript of Secretary Blinken’s speech announcing this determination.

Over the course of 2016 and 2017, violence across northern Rakhine State was extreme, large-scale, and widespread. The scope and scale of the military’s operations indicate they were well-planned and coordinated.

(snip)

https://www.state.gov/burma-genocide/#:~:text=U.S.%20SECRETARY%20OF%20STATE&text=On%20March%2021%2C%202022%2C%20following,crimes%20against%20humanity%20against%20Rohingya.

[sarisataka]

42. Well egg on my face

There was a case brought in 2020 against Myanmar.

I see the next scheduled hearing is May 16, 2024 for receiving the responses to objections, counter objections, pleadings.... In short four years on, the genocide is ongoing and nothing has been done.

As Sec. Blinken said, "The day will come..."

[Uncle Joe]

46. Well if MLK was correct,

"the Arc of the Moral Universe is long but it bends toward justice."

Having said that, it does take a while on occasion but much of it depends on the evidence at hand, and many of Israeli governmental leaders have incriminated themselves with their statements on top of the mass punishment actions of the government.

So they made it easier



The East Timor genocide refers to the "pacification campaigns" of state terrorism which were waged by the Indonesian New Order government during the Indonesian invasion and occupation of East Timor. The majority of sources consider the Indonesian killings in East Timor to constitute genocide,[1][2][3] while other scholars disagree on certain aspects of the definition.[4](snip)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor_genocide#:~:text=The%20East%20Timor%20genocide%20refers,and%20occupation%20of%20East%20Timor.



The United States recognized Timor-Leste, then known as East Timor, on May 20, 2002, when it achieved formal independence. Before this time, the region had been a Portuguese colony up until 1975 and was under Indonesian sovereignty from 1976 to 1999.

[Oopsie Daisy]

24. During the ongoing fighting, the invading power may not be immediately considered an occupying power *

During the ongoing fighting, the invading power may not be immediately considered an occupying power, and its legal obligations towards civilians may be different. An invading power becomes an "occupying power" once it has established effective control over a territory during an armed conflict.

Therefore, once the invading power has established effective control and becomes an occupying power, assumes additional responsibilities towards the civilian population such as ensuring public order, providing necessary food, medical supplies, and other essential services to the civilian population, etc. At this time, however, I see no evidence that Israel has established effective control, do you?

[Oopsie Daisy]

11. Stand by... someone will try to justify it and marginalize it.

[obamanut2012]

33. You literally just loled upthread at a two-month old Palestinian INFANT who starved to death

[Oopsie Daisy]

36. LOL! No, actually I didn't.

>> You literally just loled upthread at a two-month old Palestinian INFANT who starved to death
LOL! No, actually I didn't.

[obamanut2012]

39. Yeah, you did

[Oopsie Daisy]

40. No. I did no such thing.

Show me where I was literally loling "upthread at a two-month old Palestinian INFANT who starved to death".

Stop accusing me of saying/doing things that I did not do. I will not be bullied in that manner.

[Celerity]

43. yes you did

[Oopsie Daisy]

44. No, I didn't. The only gaslighting is pretending that LOL-ing at an absurd statement is LOL-ing at a dead baby.

I will not be bullied. Stop.

[Celerity]

47. you are not being bullied in the slightest, you are being correctly called out by multiple posters for LOL'ing

at a dead baby, and now for trying to gaslight and claim you didn't when clear eveidence of your doing so is posted directly to you

[Oopsie Daisy]

49. LOL! No, the only "clear evidence" I see is how some folks pretend that I'm laughing at "dead babies" *

* when I'm not. There's nothing to "call out." So, yes... that's bullying and harassment.

"Gaslighting" ... LOL!

[Celerity]

52. Repetitively 'LOLing' in no way rebuts what you did, and certainly does nothing to show anything remotely 'bullying'

when multiple posters correctly called you out for it. Same for the repeated false denials, even in the face of your own words clearly showing you did indeed do what they said you did.

[Oopsie Daisy]

59. Yawn. It's clear what the LOL refers to. Efforts to "score points" by deliberately lying about it *

* and repetitively making false accusations to imply otherwise are indeed bullying. It's so silly and ridiculous. You guys crack me up sometimes.

PS: LOL!

[Celerity]

63. you can keep on

but alas, it will not work

[Oopsie Daisy]

69. LOL! (Guess what I'm laughing at now.)

[Nixie]

111. It's obvious you weren't loling at a dead baby.

I just needed a quick look at this thread to see that the usual absurdity is indeed the culprit. 👍

[Oopsie Daisy]

114. Yes. The bullying, stalking, intimidation, gish-gallop, "points scoring" & "gaslighting" seems to be a popular pastime *

* among many who hang out various online forums. I see it a lot. Whether it's personal attacks and insults, or feigning outrage by intentionally "misreading" a subject line (never bothering to go further) there are so many negative traits and clues regarding the intentions of those individuals. They're everywhere. But besides those common tactics and traits, another common theme is that they use that aggressiveness to hide intellectual and argumentative weaknesses for whatever the "cause du jour" happens to be (or whatever Nina Turner, Breanna Whoozits, et al happen to be most upset about that week and whether they can get any mileage out of it as an excuse to shit on Democrats and Joe Biden (or to fund-raise). Anyway, thank you for popping-in to share your observations. You're not the only one who noticed. Have a great week!

[betsuni]

119. +1

[brooklynite]

45. How about point out that Egypt could have opened the southern border months ago....

...and protected and fed all the Palestinian civilians.

But somehow criticisms of their behavior are few and far between.

[Oopsie Daisy]

48. That's a good point.

[Celerity]

50. Openly asking for Egypt to be complicit in the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is not a valid rebuttal. You know damn well

that if Gaza was emptied of Palestinians, Israel would not allow them back in.

[former9thward]

55. Egypt has walled off the southern border of Gaza for years.

But no one says anything about it because, well, its not Israel walling off that border.

[Celerity]

61. and Israel walled off the border with Egypt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_barrier

The Egypt–Israel barrier or Egypt–Israel border fence (Hebrew: שְׁעוֹן הַחוֹל, romanized: Shaʽon HaḤol, lit. 'sand clock') refers to a separation barrier built by Israel along its border with Egypt. Initial construction on the barrier began on 22 November 2010.

snip

The 245-kilometre (152 mi) barrier, stretching from the Israeli city of Eilat in the south to the Gaza–Israel border in the north, took three years to construct at an estimated cost of NIS 1.6 billion (US$450 million), making it one of the largest projects in Israel's history.

[former9thward]

106. Not sure what your point is.

There are walls and fences everywhere in that part of the world. I was at the Gaza border recently (before Oct. 7) and took photos of that crossing which was used by thousands of people in Gaza to travel into Israel for work, shopping and medical appointments.

[brooklynite]

105. So we're back to only criticizing Israel.

[Celerity]

113. No. All I did was point out a fact.

[TheKentuckian]

116. It is "the cause" not the lives.

"Pro Pal" says to spend spend every drop of Palestinian blood for the cause.

If everyone dies reinforcement martyrs can be brought in on right of return schemes or just be substituted.

"Pro Pal" like Hamas only cares about pawns to be sacrifices for "the cause".

[brush]

91. Why would Egypt bail out Israel and take responsibility to feed, house and eventually find work, permanent...

housing and absorb them into its population, because once they're gone from Gaza Israel is not letting them back in.

You must know that's Netanyahu/Likud's goal...to be rid of the Palestinians.

[malaise]

27. Add the 30,000 dead

Palestinians

Nothing justifies this slaughter

[myohmy2]

58. +1...

...

[ColinC]

71. No it isn't and it really never was. The war that started 107 years ago never ended.

Hamas has been around barely a few decades. It’s only been governing the West Bank for a little more than a decade.

Whereas Palestine was invaded by the British in 1917, occupied by the British until 1947 who handed off their occupation to the US and Israel at that point. There has been no long term permanent solution to the conflict since the original invasion and the war has continued. Hamas didn’t start the war, the UK did and Israel -through accepting responsibility of the occupation, continued it. In fact Hamas didn’t even exist for over 70 years after the war started.

Anybody who says that this war was started by Hamas is starting from a very small span of history.

[Oopsie Daisy]

72. Gotcha! Hamas was just a convenient "excuse" and Israel "let-it-happen-on-purpose" as a pretense for all-out war.

[ColinC]

75. I don't know what that means

But Palestine has been unjustly occupied since 1917 and Hamas was just one of the many militant responses against the occupation after no mutual resolution came about. But they also didn’t actually have any official power until they were elected in 2007 despite the war basically having gone on for 90 years prior.

[Oopsie Daisy]

78. So, the rape, sexual mutilation, and murders were justified?

And their actions now are excusable because the conflict has been going on for so long that Israel "deserved" it?

Whew! I'm glad we got that cleared up!

[ColinC]

85. Is that what you believe?

Again, the war started a long time ago. None of the massacre of human beings and war crimes going on by either side is justified. Yet the reasons for the war continue to be the same -an unjustifiable occupation of a territory.

The history of the situation and context has nothing to do with the legality of the incidents occurring within the conflict.

[Oopsie Daisy]

89. Oh, please. We have officially reached an impasse. I'm not playing this game.

[ColinC]

90. I honestly just don't know what you are talking about.

If you have a response to what I have said, I welcome it. So far I haven’t seen one.

[Oopsie Daisy]

92. Okay.

[ColinC]

104. 👍

[TwilightZone]

74. Hamas started the current conflict.

There was a ceasefire in place on October 7th, which Hamas violated, as they have done repeatedly in the past.

The argument that they're not responsible for the current conflict is laughable.

[ColinC]

79. If there was a ceasefire as you say, Israel did not honor it.

Here is a list of the most recent IDF operations on Palestine prior to the end of the “ceasefire” you refer to and the October 7 attack.

2006: Operation Summer Rains
2006: Gaza beach explosion (2006)
2006: 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict
2006: 2006 shelling of Beit Hanoun
2006 November: Operation Autumn Clouds
2008: Beit Hanoun April 2008 incident
2008 February: Operation Hot Winter
2008: (2008 Israel–Hamas ceasefire not an attack; ended November 4th, 2008)
2008-2009: Gaza War (2008–09)
2009: List of Israeli attacks on Gaza, 2009
2010: March 2010 Israel–Gaza clashes
2010 May: Gaza flotilla raid (in international waters)
2011: August 2011 Gaza Strip air raids
2012 March: March 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes; Operation Returning Echo
2012: Operation Pillar of Defense
2014: 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict
2015: 2015–2016 wave of violence in Israeli-Palestinian conflict
2018: Gaza–Israel clashes (November 2018)
2021: 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis
2022: Operation Breaking Dawn

[NickB79]

82. Dollars to donuts, every one was precipitated by Hamas rocket attacks

They didn't build Iron Dome for funsies.

[ColinC]

83. Hence there was no actual ceasefire and the conflict was never actually ceased since 1917

Which the UK started and Israel/US perpetuated

[NickB79]

86. And every action you listed only occurred AFTER Hamas fired rockets

Rockets that targeted civilians to boot.

In other words, Hamas could have chosen to end the war after every attack, but chose not to. Because their charter calls for the genocide of the Jews.

As another poster stated a few days ago, with the billions that Hamas has received since 2007, they could have transformed Gaza into a pearl on the Mediterranean coast, rich with tourist dollars. Instead, they built tunnels and warheads for Gaza. And lavish villas for themselves in Qatar. They aren't fighting a war to give the Palestinians freedom and prosperity.

[ColinC]

88. ...because there was never an actual sustainable ceasefire

And the conflict never actually ceased since 1917.

You can say Hamas perpetuates the war at this point because that’s generally a fact (one exception was when Israel broke the last short ceasefire), but the war never ended and the fighting never actually stopped since Palestine was wrongfully invaded.

[David__77]

96. Of course, people being deprived of sovereignty and citizenship goes back way before that.

[ColinC]

103. Of course

But in the context of the current situation and two strong national identities and governing bodies, I imagine the historical context for the conflict between those two groups is important.

[Cha]

94. Of course they did.. Who would excuse HAMAS

for starting this Current GD WAR?!

[ColinC]

101. If there was ever a mutually agreeable permanent solution since 1917 I would like to hear about it.

But as far as I know there wasn’t, and the same war over the territory of Palestine that was taken by the British, while passed on to the US and Israel, continues to this day.

[Cha]

73. Yeah, it was HAMAS that Invaded Israel on Oct 7 And Started

this WAR

[Oopsie Daisy]

76. Thank you. All the pretzel logic in the world won't help Hamas. But, they keep trying.

[ColinC]

81. Again the war started in 1917 and continues today.

Here is a list of Israeli operations in Gaza prior to the start of “this war.”

2006: Operation Summer Rains
2006: Gaza beach explosion (2006)
2006: 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict
2006: 2006 shelling of Beit Hanoun
2006 November: Operation Autumn Clouds
2008: Beit Hanoun April 2008 incident
2008 February: Operation Hot Winter
2008: (2008 Israel–Hamas ceasefire not an attack; ended November 4th, 2008)
2008-2009: Gaza War (2008–09)
2009: List of Israeli attacks on Gaza, 2009
2010: March 2010 Israel–Gaza clashes
2010 May: Gaza flotilla raid (in international waters)
2011: August 2011 Gaza Strip air raids
2012 March: March 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes; Operation Returning Echo
2012: Operation Pillar of Defense
2014: 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict
2015: 2015–2016 wave of violence in Israeli-Palestinian conflict
2018: Gaza–Israel clashes (November 2018)
2021: 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis
2022: Operation Breaking Dawn

[TheKentuckian]

117. Time to finish it then.

[ColinC]

118. Unless there's a viable peace treaty and permanent two state solution (or withdrawal), that will not happen

…no matter how many innocent people anybody kills.

[malaise]

25. K & R

Thanks

[Celerity]

28. K & R

[Goddessartist]

29. K&R

Thank you for this.

[mountain grammy]

30. K&R.. good discussion..

[malaise]

51. This was excellent

Thanks

[JohnSJ]

54. Bernie has such wisdom when he hired Nina Turner, Cornell West, David Sirota,

and Briahana Joy Gray

[malaise]

57. The way Bernie separates campaign skills from governance skills must be repeated

by all

[elleng]

65. Yes.

Thanks

[JohnSJ]

67. The Supreme Court

[Cha]

93. Uh huh... That didn't work out so well, either. What are those

up to now?

Don't tell me they're campaigning against Pres Biden?

The Democratic President who is on the Front Lines Fighting to Save Our Democracy!!!

[Cha]

110. And, Here It Is.. BJG

Link to tweet

[demmiblue]

107. I see that StarffieBox is back. n/t

[red dog 1]

108. I agree 100% with what Bernie says in the video.