How do I explain to a young Gen Z friend that voting third party is not in her best interest?

[TSExile]

She is such a sweet and grounded young lady of 24, who is very turned on to women's issues. Her first election was in 2020, at the age of 20, and she voted third party. How do I persuade her that this time she should not only vote for Biden/Harris, but D all the way? She is a little naive to the fact that third party isn't a good thing, but she is totally open to ideas. Thanks!!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. You need to understand what her interests are.

Why did she vote third party the first time?

[TSExile]

2. Personally, I think she is really a Democrat...

...but is afraid to admit it. She definitely doesn't like TSF and won't vote for him. I think it's because she doesn't really like or identify with either major party, and doesn't see third parties as spoilers.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. If her interest is not being a Democrat how are you going to convince her that voting third party isn't in her best

interest?

[kimbutgar]

3. Yes warn her that consequences of a second term of TFA by voting 3rd party will advance TFA chances of

Winning in 2024. And she will lose her reproductive rights, birth control, and it might be the last time she ever gets to vote. Scare the crap out her with the truth of what TFA and the magas have in store for women going forward.

To me the best example of that mentality is the video of the guy saying he wouldn’t vote for Nikki Hailey.

Link to tweet

?s=20


These are the type of men who will be in charge and force women into being a second class citizens.

Also I remember before 1974 women not being able to have credit cards or easily get personal loans. The MAGAs can easily take us back there!

[Blues Heron]

4. If she was really grounded she would see that throwing away your vote is silly.

[Stuckinthebush]

5. I guess it depends on where she is

If Alabama, then tell her to knock her socks off. Vote for Santa Claus. It won't matter.

If she is in a swing state then show her the math. Either Trump or Biden will win. There is no other possibility. A vote for someone else is a vote for Trump.

[Sky Jewels]

8. We posted similar thoughts at the same time.

[Sky Jewels]

6. Is she in a swing state or safely blue or tragically red state?

If she's in a swing state, she should get short lesson on the electoral college versus popular vote. If she's in a very red or very blue state, well, her third party vote won't matter much at the presidential level.

[Stuckinthebush]

15. Great minds

[Trueblue1968]

7. Voting for a 3rd party is just voting for Dirty Diaper Donnie

[Aristus]

18. I'm hoping this is the best way, right here. She is not so young that she can't remember 2016.

All those concern-trolling "I just don't trust Hillary" types gave us the ocean of shit we've been treading water in since.

Also, tell her a vote for anyone other than Joe Biden is a vote for Trump. That is inarguable Electoral College math.

Save the protest votes when democracy is not on the line.

[Freethinker65]

9. Ask her if she wants to be able to access reproductive healthcare.

If the Democrats lose, she may lose that right not only if she lives in certain states, but on a National level. Once rights are gone, they are extremely hard to get back.

[TSExile]

10. She is registered in Illinois.

It's mostly blue, but she's not near Chicago. Is Adams County blue?

[Rincewind]

62. No, Adams County is red.

Chicago, and some of it's collar towns are blue. East St. Louis is blue. And there is a small blue dot near the University of Illinois. The rest of the state is red. It's just over 90% white, and in 2020 trump got 72% of the vote. She might be able to affect some of the local and state wide races

[LiberalFighter]

11. She needs to understand that voting should be about who is the best person for the position.

Who will support legislation that she considers important and important to the country?

She needs to understand that it is also important to vote for the right candidates in both the House and Senate. If she votes for the wrong person who is not willing to work with the President that is also throwing her vote away too. Does she want to elect someone that will take her freedom away? Does she want to elect someone that doesn't care about those in need? She could be one of them. Maybe her economic situation won't be as bad as others but does she want to take that chance with a nut?

[cachukis]

12. Washington and Adams were both party

averse. Jefferson was very opposed to Hamilton centralization of banking. He put together a support group to nullify and excoriate both Washington and Adams. Adams was forced to side with the Federalists.
The two party system was the natural evolution of our democracy out of the Constitution. People have tried to offer alternatives, but it has always boiled down to, for or against, for the power to legislate. We do not have Parliamentary rule of building coalitions.
In the end, our vote represents our world view. Sadly, we don't get representation that matches that world view very well. But the only way we will get our world view will be in increments.
We join with those who agree with our positions, at least somewhat, and vote to keep women's complete access to appropriate health care, as an example. Or maybe, women should be allowed to vote.
Most people who want to support human rights would also support access to a full library.
Voting for Bernie Sanders as one who came close to your ideals, wasn't enough. Now you have to vote for Joe Biden and hope he inserts some of Bernie's ideas, or vote for the other guy's litany of transgressions.
Voting for RFK Jr. as your last vote might not hit you until it is too late.

[FalloutShelter]

13. I would tell her that she needs and deserves a win.

That win cannot be achieved via a third party candidate. It is mathematically impossible.

The person who can deliver those wins is Joe Biden and a whole lot of down ballot Democrats.

The only answer to, “why aren’t we achieving our goals?” Is more Democrats. Full stop.

[Shermann]

14. It is a fact that as a group, Democrats statistically have a better chance of stopping the Republicans than independents

The straight D vote as a starting point is a sound choice for women's issues. That said, I won't tell somebody not to vote independent on a case-by-case basis.

[asiliveandbreathe]

16. Your heart is in the right place..reaching out to help..

A young man, Zander Moricz..Sarasota FL//I listen to Meidastouch Network and on that network is a contributor..Burn The Boats..and he interviewed Zander..I was blown away..Zander took LOA from Harvard ..

Harvard student and activist Zander Moricz has gone viral across social media platforms after putting Sarasota County School Board member and Moms for Liberty co-founder Bridget Zeigler on her heals..so much more..

?list=PL36GQAccexbzpKRZc7dwBvk14Cs-B55bM&t=3

[crud]

19. I would tell her about "movement" politics

No matter what your big issue is, vote for the candidate who is closer to your position...THAT HAS A CHANCE TO WIN!

If you vote for someone who doesn't have a chance to win, it's a wasted vote.

[usonian]

20. Any vote not for Biden is a vote for this DYSTOPIAN FUTURE. Do you want this?

• Government dictates what you read, your religion and your private life. Period trackers mandatory, and report to the government.

• More welfare for the rich.

• Americans pitted against each other along lines of race, color, religion, gender, sexuality, and income. Vilification of blacks, Jews, Muslims, lgbtq+ , homeless, and women of strength, with increasing violence, even murder against them.

• Private health care companies deny needed treatments to save money. (Death panels are here!)

• The wealthy pay even less in taxes.

• Every civil right is eroded by clown judges living in the 18th century rewriting the constitution.

• Worker's rights and benefits reduced in order to create greater profits for businesses.

• Safety nets removed, so that homeless, and jobless people are left to die on the streets.

• More, more, more of culture war.

• GUNS, everywhere, with no limitations or requirements. Kids get them freely.

• Minorities and women blamed for every imaginable blip.

• Support of authoritarian regimes across the globe, who eagerly imprison, "re-educate", murder and commit atrocities on others.

• Lies, hate speech and threats are welcomed on "social media" and given support by government officials.

• Medical care and prescription drug costs skyrocket.

• OH, AND A MERCILESS AND VICIOUS WAR AGAINST WOMEN.
PERSECUTION AND PROSECUTION FOR ASSERTING ANY RIGHTS AT ALL.

[sinkingfeeling]

21. Why wouldn't she vote for a political party that has a history/platform of supporting women's rights

instead a third party candidate that will never be elected nor will do one thing to help women?

[DoBW]

22. How about...

" This possibly could be your last vote in a free America -- so make it f*cking count"

[qwlauren35]

23. Can't help you - I don't agree.

This election has some races that would have devastating effects if Republicans won. But if there is a race that she believes has a chance, a STRONG chance for a third party to win, she can consider it. If for example, there is a race at the state level where a third-party elected official would be beneficial, or if all of the available candidates are douche bags AND the third party candidate has a shot at winning, I say "campaign for them". Because if others don't see what you see, it won't happen.

The two party system causes problems. All voices are not heard. Good candidates of any party should have a shot of winning. BUT, this is an election where we need to vote *against* someone. And the only way to vote *against* someone is to back the person with the most chance of beating them, no matter how you feel about it. That's why people who don't like Biden need to hold their noses and vote for him anyway. People who don't like Kamala Harris need to hold their noses and vote for Biden anyway. Anyone who wants Trump to lose must bite the bullet and vote for Biden.

Senate races, House races... if you have watched what has happened, the Senate Republicans, in the minority, have worked across the aisle. They even shut down Tuberville, a radical pro-life Republican who was stalling appointments over abortion issues. The House Republicans, in the majority, have stalled mountains of legislature that is good for America. Last time the Senate Republicans were in the majority, they appointed extremely conservative Supreme Court judges, and we lost Roe v. Wade. Having a Republican majority in the Senate pushes the US toward conservatism. It's important to vote against it. *BUT* if a third party or independent candidate has a shot at winning, campaign for them. Just remember that if the polls show a three way race, you need to know who you want to vote against, and let that decide who to vote for.

[EarlG]

24. Republicans are going to continue to rip away women's rights

If they're allowed to win in 2024, they will attempt a national abortion ban, a contraception ban, and other legislation cracking down on women's freedom. Your friend sounds like the kind of person who would not want this to happen, so remind her that unless Republicans are stopped, this WILL happen. The overturning of Roe v. Wade is proof that Republicans are serious.

And the only way to stop Republicans is by voting for Democrats. She might not like Democrats, but right now they are the only viable way to beat Republicans in elections, and reduce the power that Republicans hold over the country. A third-party vote does nothing to stop Republicans -- in fact it makes it MORE difficult to stop them, because the votes opposing them will be split between multiple candidates.

Remind her that in 2016, Donald Trump won a number of states by a small margin, and in those states the number of third party votes was greater than the margin of victory. If just some of those people had voted for Democrats instead, Donald Trump would not have been able to appoint three U.S. Supreme Court Justices and overturn Roe v Wade.

So it's simple pragmatism. If she thinks of her vote as something unserious -- something that's essentially just a means of social signaling, like putting a bumper sticker on your car -- then she's probably just going to vote third party. But maybe she can be persuaded that her vote is something precious, that can be used to wield real power, and that she should consider putting it to work to stop Republicans from continuing their efforts to make women second-class citizens.

[Politicub]

25. She needs to get beyond the naivety.

I would suggest she educate herself on the republican platform. As a woman, her liberty is in jeopardy.

If she’s in a swing state, and seriously considering voting third party, then I’m not sure how to get through to someone like that.

It’s a duty of citizenship to educate oneself on the issues and current events.

[TSExile]

26. She's in a blue state (Illinois)...

...but her county is located in a very rural region on the Mississippi River.

[Politicub]

57. A professor opened my eyes to parties and coalitions when I was 20

I didn’t like hearing that third-party votes for president are wasted votes. But there was no denying his argument about why the vote for president is a vote for a party.

The gist is that a vote for president isn’t for an individual. It’s about the vast number of people who will be running government under a new administration. This, coupled with a really great explanation of the electoral college, convinced me for good.

I aligned more closely with Democratic Party philosophy than Republican, and I would prefer to have a Democratic cabinet and appointees. There was nothing that I supported in the GOP platform, so why would I take an action that would help them sweep into office?

She has so much on the line. I hope she comes around, but she will need to figure it out—and believe it— for herself.

[consider_this]

27. This, posted by someone on DU in early Feb, to me is a great message for her and her kind...

check it out, especially the part about 'voting your conscience' - this calls it out for actually being the opposite!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218657306

[Ocelot II]

28. History. Nader voters gave us Bush.

Ever since then, when people say they'd vote for a third party candidate because their conscience won't let them vote for any candidate whose policy positions don't align exactly with theirs, my response has been, "Fuck your conscience." If you want to be polite about it, you might say, “Voting isn’t marriage – it’s public transportation. You are not waiting for ‘the one’ who is absolutely perfect. You are getting the bus. And if there isn’t one going exactly to your destination, you don’t stay at home; you take the one going closest to where you want to be.” (Paul Tambyah)

[Vinca]

35. And Stein voters gave us Trump over Hillary.

[EllieBC]

29. 2000 and 2016 are good examples

of what “voting your conscience” does.

[jaxexpat]

30. Math has always been challenging.

[Rob H.]

31. I live in a deep Red state that Trump dominated in the last two elections

and it's not a swing state; I vote straight D but could vote for literally anyone for all the good those votes do at the national level. If you're not living in a swing state or a state where Biden and Trump are close in the polls she should vote however she wants, imo.

[BlueKota]

32. One of my friends from high-school said he is voting anyone else on the ballot

who is not Trump or Biden. A co-worker of his tried to explain that we all need to vote Biden to keep Trump out of the White House, but he said he doesn't vote for anyone he doesn't respect. I was going to argue with him, but in NY it probably won't matter.

[ret5hd]

33. "i only keep friends i respect...so, uhhmm...bye."

[Vinca]

34. Ask her how she would feel if Biden loses the electoral votes in your state by just a few votes.

Suppose he loses the total vote count of all the states because of those few votes. She will have helped to enable the election of Donald Trump who is directly responsible for women losing their right to bodily autonomy. You might also explain that we're not a parliamentary system of government and a losing third party gets no representation in the government. The truth is, sometimes elections come down to voting for who you perceive is the lesser of 2 evils.

[GuppyGal]

36. I'm sorry but she can't be 'grounded' and 'turned onto women's issue's' if she is considering a 3rd party. Has she

looked around and SEE what the repubes are doing?

[Kaleva]

44. I agree. She isn't what the OP says she is

She's anti-wonen and ungrounded.

[happybird]

37. These images from 2016 sum it up pretty clearly

Number of Electoral College Votes for just those three states:

Michigan: 15
Pennsylvania: 19
Wisconsin: 10

Total: 44 votes

232 + 44 = 276


We would have never experienced the nightmare of Trump and his administration if not for the third-party votes in just three states. We are a two-party system, like it or not. There will not be enough votes for any third-party candidate to give them a win, but they can easily be a spoiler and stick us with 4 more years of the treasonous rapist.

He is the same treasonous rapist who appointed three of the five Supreme Court Justices who voted to overturn Roe v. Wade.

An election with such high stakes -especially for women- is not the time or place to cast a protest vote or a idealogical vote. No matter how many people end up on the ballot, either Biden or Trump will win.

[MN2theMax]

38. I think the post linked to below applies to her situation as well as to protest voting

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218657306

[TexasDem69]

39. I had a heated but informative discussion in 2020

With a young female voter who was a daughter of a family friend and who insisted that the Democratic Party did not represent her very liberal interests. She was considering not voting at all because she didn’t see any real difference between Biden and Trump. I made a lot of the points that others have made here and I hope she voted for Biden but I’m not sure. I have two kids in their mid-20s who aren’t sure they are going to vote this year for the same reasons. They honestly believe there is no real difference between Biden and Trump on issues that are important to them.

[TSExile]

40. I think that's where my friend is at.

Hopefully, she and I will have another discussion about politics at some point. Thanks to all for your input.

[JI7]

46. It's becsuse they don't care about abortion rights

becsuse that is a real clear difference. So if they see no difference it's becsuse that issue does not matter to them.

[LuvLoogie]

41. Look up Art Jones in Illinois.

Tell her how Nazis and Klansmen keep trickling up in the GOP. Tuberville, Greene, King in Iowa.

Blue all the way. Stein and Nader voters gave us a 50 -60 year setback in the Supreme court.

Third party votes will help fry the planet.

[JohnSJ]

42. Simple. As long as elections are determined by the electoral college and not the popular vote, third parties will

never be viable, and only remain spoilers

[Kaleva]

49. There's only one election determined by the EC

The 10s of thousands of other races are not. From US Senator down to trustee on a township board

[JohnSJ]

58. and that is the election that the OP is talking about that they won't vote for Biden/Harris

[maxsolomon]

43. You probably won't convince her.

nt

[JI7]

45. Based in how she votes I can't see how women's issues are of concern to her

She seems like a piece of shit as do most who claim to be concerned about certain things but don't vote based on it.

[MOMFUDSKI]

47. Tell her to read some books on theocracy and

autocracy. Then tell her it will be her vote that will shape the rest of her life in America. Then walk away.

[Kennah]

48. I'm fighting this fight, and have been for years

I tell them to look at the history of the US. We've always had third parties, but a third party candidate has NEVER won the Presidency.

Some incorrectly state that Lincoln was a third party candidate, but that's not true. The Whig Party and the Democratic Party were the two parties in 1852, and the Republican Party and the Democratic party were the two parties in 1856. Lincoln was the first Republican President but NOT the first Republican Presidential Candidate. That was John Frémont in 1856.

I would submit that a third party candidate cannot ever win because the system is built around there being two parties.

[elocs]

50. American presidential elections are binary with the result that either the Democratic candidate

or the Republican one will be the winner. Voting for a 3rd party candidate will only help Trump. Red state or Blue, we need every vote we can get to go to Biden not just to defeat Trump but to give him a crushing defeat and a clear rejection by the American people.
Thanks to Democrats and the Left not standing firm with Hillary in 2016 and giving us 4 years of Trump makes this the most important election of our lifetimes. Our democracy and the American way of life is on the line. Don't fail us.

[markpkessinger]

51. You might start by walking her through the history of third-party presidential candidates . . .

. . . and noting that invariably, those candidacies have hurt one side and helped the other. Ross Perot hurt George Bush (and later Bob Dole) and helped Bill Clinton. Ralph Nader hurt John Kerry and helped George Bush. Jill Stein hurt Hillary and helped Trump. People who express a desire to vote third party or independent often do so out of a misguided notion that their vote will somehow register as a kind of protest, or that they are somehow holding themselves above the fray of the two-party system. But in reality, they are not. They are merely helping one side or the other, whether or not that is their intention.

[Attilatheblond]

52. Point out that people voting 3rd party in 2016 helped put Trump in the White House

The old saying 'if you're not part of the solution, you ARE part of the problem' comes to mind

[bdamomma]

53. She's throwing

away her vote really, tell her to hold her nose and vote Democratic, that's if she still wants accessibility to contraception.

[keithbvadu2]

54. If she helps elect Trump by voting third party:::

[LeftInTX]

55. Tell her: "A vote for third party is a vote for Trump"

[Joinfortmill]

56. Tell her to listen to Rachel's podcast, ULTRA.

Or watch the movie, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Both will probably shock her. That's ok, people need to be shocked into recognizing that this may be the last election they vote in for a very long time if we get this wrong. Or just watch MSNBC. They're saying it out loud now. Good luck

[yellowdogintexas]

61. also Prequel ...the American Nazi Party was a clear and present danger nt

[no_hypocrisy]

59. My experience:

I threw away my vote for Democrat Jimmy Carter in 1980. I voted for John Anderson, third party. He was a Republican but very liberal. Supported abortion rights. Not only did he not win, but my non-vote for Jimmy Carter contributed to the election of Ronald Reagan. We've been suffering for more than 40 years due to my stupidity. And now I found out that Roger Stone (yeah, THAT Roger Stone) recruited Anderson to take away votes from Carter. Mission accomplished.

Tell your friend there is no luxury in voting for someone outside the Democratic Party.

[Tree Lady]

60. First I would agree changes need

to be made in our voting system. And what we have right now is two major parties and a few that only get a very small percentage each time. So if you vote with that last group and you want womens rights you may completely lose them if Trump wins again.

Republicans like the way things are so if you vote 3rd party nothing will change if they win. At least with dems they are trying to ratify women's rights in all states and have abortion be legal in all again.

Tell her the more her generation sits back and doesn't get involved is the more older folks will get elected. If more gen x voted they could see a major change and she needs to be part of it, like Obama said be the change you want to see.

Until we get ranked choice voting another party will not get in.

[markpkessinger]

63. Last night, my 20-year-old grandniece reached out to me to ask what I thought of RFK, Jr. . . .

Here was my response:

The problem with RFK, Jr. is the same problem with all third-party or independent presidential candidates. The fact is that structurally, a third party candidate can only function as a spoiler, detracting votes from one of the two major candidates. No doubt there are some things that RFK, Jr. says that are attractive. But there is a long history of third party candidates that shows they invariably hurt one of the major candidates at the expense of the other. Jill Stein, in 2016, hurt Hillary and helped Trump to win. Ralph Nader in 2004 helped Bush and hurt John Kerry. Back in the 1990s, the independent candidacy of Ross Perot hurt Bob Dole and helped Clinton. So it isn't one-sided -- at various points in history, these candidates have helped Democrats as well as Republicans. And in many cases, at least some of what they stand for has been attractive. But you have to consider the reality of their chances, and of which side they will ultimately help.

And one more thing to think about is this: even if a third-party/independent candidate could somehow get elected, that candidate would take office with no natural group of supporters in Congress, so he or she would be able to accomplish next to nothing while in office.

The hard reality of the matter is is that a vote for RFK, Jr. is effectively a vote for Trump.

[sakabatou]

64. I would try to ascertain why she would vote third party