Last night, my 20-year-old grandniece reached out to me to ask what I thought of RFK, Jr. . . .

[markpkessinger]

Here was my response:

The problem with RFK, Jr. is the same problem with all third-party or independent presidential candidates. The fact is that structurally, a third party candidate can only function as a spoiler, detracting votes from one of the two major candidates. No doubt there are some things that RFK, Jr. says that are attractive. But there is a long history of third party candidates that shows they invariably hurt one of the major candidates at the expense of the other. Jill Stein, in 2016, hurt Hillary and helped Trump to win. Ralph Nader in 2004 helped Bush and hurt John Kerry. Back in the 1990s, the independent candidacy of Ross Perot hurt Bob Dole and helped Clinton. So it isn't one-sided -- at various points in history, these candidates have helped Democrats as well as Republicans. And in many cases, at least some of what they stand for has been attractive. But you have to consider the reality of their chances, and of which side they will ultimately help.

And one more thing to think about is this: even if a third-party/independent candidate could somehow get elected, that candidate would take office with no natural group of supporters in Congress, so he or she would be able to accomplish next to nothing while in office.

The hard reality of the matter is is that a vote for RFK, Jr. is effectively a vote for Trump.

[JohnSJ]

1. Did your grandniece watch the SOTU last night?

[mucifer]

2. Plus how many people in the USA and other countries are DEAD because of his anti vax propaganda??

[FalloutShelter]

3. Perfect response.

Young women need to wake up.

The Christian nationalists who are poised to upend democracy need to be CRUSHED utterly and without remorse.

[lame54]

47. Except, they didn't answer the question...

He's F'ing Nuts is the answer

[LiberalFighter]

4. Explain to her that any third party that is going to make a difference

is one that is built from the ground up.

Both the Democratic and Republican Parties have county, state, and national structures. In every county and state. National campaigns rely on them. National campaigns cannot rely solely on their own staff.

[Ray Bruns]

30. I have been saying that for years. These third party candidates always try to run for president without any state or

Local party candidates or structure. All they do is siphon off support from one candidate or the other.

[niyad]

5. Well said! I hope you got through to her.

[markpkessinger]

9. Thanks! I think I got through to her . . .

. . . At least, she said I raised s number of points she hadn't thought about!

[Demsrule86]

6. Why post this today? You should have told her Kennedy is besties with Bannon and funded

by millionaire Trump supporters. None of my kids support any third-party candidate or Trump...they range in age from GenX (I was a teen) to GenZ.

[niyad]

12. What is wrong with posting that today?

[Demsrule86]

19. Right after the speech last night. It is a downer...and that seems to be a pattern of late.

Biden is the presumptive nominee...Kennedy ET Al is old news. He is a shitty person, killed folks as an anti-vaxer, takes money from the right and is completely unimportant. Support Democrats.

[niyad]

20. You see it as a downer. Others see it as a reaching out moment that may

help. We as Dems, are capable of doing, and thinking, multiple things on any given day.

[jimfields33]

29. I thought it was perfect. Home run in fact.

[AkFemDem]

34. Oh man, I totally forgot

That today was national "No posts about grand-nieces" day! I bet the original poster did too.

[Walleye]

7. I don't understand voting for someone because he "says a lot of good things"

Tommy Chong says a lot of good things but I would never vote for him as president. That goes for a lot of other people I like. POTUS is a specific job and people need skill for it

[TwilightZone]

8. He also bragged about palling around with Weinstein, Ailes, Cosby, and OJ Simpson.

https://newrepublic.com/post/179637/robert-f-kennedy-jr-jeffrey-epstein

[WhiskeyGrinder]

10. I would say that who RFK Jr. is as a person is a much bigger issue than the fact he's running third party.

[Happy Hoosier]

11. Also, RFK Jr is fucking insane. NT

[brooklynite]

13. "No doubt there are some things that RFK, Jr. says that are attractive."

And what would those be?

Here Are All The Conspiracies He Promotes—From Vaccines To Mass Shootings

Covid-19 targets certain races and gives others immunity: Kennedy Jr. was caught on camera telling fellow diners that “Covid-19 is targeted to attack Caucasians and Black people” and “the people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese,” according to a video made public in the New York Post, which also shows him saying the U.S. “put hundreds of millions of dollars into ethnically targeted microbes” and labs in Ukraine collected Russian and Chinese DNA “so we can target people by race.”

Mass shootings are linked to prescription drugs: Kennedy Jr. blamed school shootings on drugs like the antidepressant Prozac in a recent Twitter Spaces discussion, telling owner Elon Musk, “Prior to the introduction of Prozac, we had almost none of these events" (there's no scientifically established correlation between psychiatric drugs and mass violence, according to experts cited by PolitiFact).

The 2004 presidential election was stolen: Kennedy Jr. said in a 2006 Rolling Stone article he was “convinced” that voter fraud in the 2004 presidential election allowed former Republican President George W. Bush to steal the victory from Democrat John Kerry, but while a 2005 postmortem by the Democratic Party found a breakdown of the election system in Ohio, it found no evidence of fraud.

The CIA was involved in the assassination of former President John F. Kennedy: Reprising the unfounded claim he has made for years, Kennedy Jr. recently made the suggestion to Fox News’ Sean Hannity (though the federal government’s Warren Commission convened to study the killing found that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone when he shot JFK in 1963).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/saradorn/2023/10/10/rfk-jr-launches-independent-2024-run-here-are-all-the-conspiracies-he-promotes-from-vaccines-to-mass-shootings/?sh=573a0d3c3cef

[markpkessinger]

15. Not much, in reality . . .

. . . But I phrased it like I did because I didn't want to put my grandniece off. She obviously heard some things that resonated with her. I wasn't about to come down on her for that.

[Scrivener7]

17. I think that was the right way to approach it. I might go back at her at another time about

his more egregious policies. But your response is one she might be more likely to listen to as a first exposure if she is leaning toward RFK.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

18. Good move, writing for your audience.

[Grown2Hate]

37. 100% this. Unless they're a full blown

MAGAT, we need to meet them where they are and gently convince them the right way to go.

Going into a tirade against RFK Jr instead of explaining why it's not in her best interests would have turned her off to the message.

I think the OP handled it PERFECTLY!

[AkFemDem]

36. There is something to be said for political acuity

When dealing with a rational person. There's actually a subtle art to politics that sometimes works much better than a sledgehammer. When dealing with a young family member, the approach this poster took sounds a lot smarter than just hammering "You're an idiot for even considering it!"

[edisdead]

14. You should have explicitly stated he helps Trump.

[markpkessinger]

16. I did -- see the last line of my response . . .

. . . which was: "The hard reality of the matter is is that a vote for RFK, Jr. is effectively a vote for Trump."

[Chellee]

25. They did.

The hard reality of the matter is is that a vote for RFK, Jr. is effectively a vote for Trump.

[MagickMuffin]

21. I wanted to help clarify a couple of things

I had to look this up because I got a little confused. So, wiki to the rescue. Helped jog the slow brain fog this early in the morning.

I hope you were able to help her out with this and it’s great she came to you for your wisdom on this matter. She proved she respects your opinions.

Nader made four bids to become President of the United States, running with the Green Party in 1996 and 2000, the Reform Party in 2004, and as an independent in 2008. In each campaign, Nader said he sought to highlight under-reported issues and a perceived need for electoral reform.

Nader was the biggest spoiler for the 2000 campaign against Gore & Bush Jr., however, the USSC decided that election, but Gore would have had better success if Nader had stayed out of the race.
Nader still wasn’t finished and ran against Bush jr & Kerry.


Ross Perot ran against Bush Sr & Clinton in 1992, which helped Clinton win.

Perot formed the Reform Party of the United States of America in 1995, and ran for president under the party's banner the following year. During the election, he failed to appear in the presidential debates, and finished in third place with about 8% of the vote, behind Republican nominee Bob Dole and President Bill Clinton.

[krkaufman]

41. facts checked

Yeah, both of those threw me.

[4lbs]

22. The US is not set up for an effective "third party" as long as we have the Electoral College.

Get rid of that, and then maybe someday a third-party candidate could have a real shot.

Until then... NO.

[TexasBushwhacker]

27. Since the Electoral College isn't going anywhere

We should promote ranked voting. You get a first choice and a second choice. If no candidate gets 50%, then you can have an automatic runoff among the top two candidates, utilizing the second choice for the people who voted for third party candidates.

[flying_wahini]

32. I like the idea of ranked voting but it requires people to go and vote twice.

Hell, we can’t even get people to go vote once. Think it’s a great idea tho.

[TexasBushwhacker]

35. No. Everyone makes a first and second choice when they vote

They're already doing it in a few places.

https://www.rcvresources.org/where-is-rcv-used

[MagickMuffin]

43. This Texan doesn't like ranked voting

I prefer the separate primaries and voting for my candidates.

And from what I’ve seen of it in other states hasn’t changed my mind about it.

[TexasBushwhacker]

45. It would be for the general election

[MagickMuffin]

46. That makes less sense

I prefer the way it has been done for generations.

Not sure how the electoral college would work under this scenario.

[live love laugh]

23. Great response. Saving for questions from those I know.

[videohead5]

24. RFK Jr. is also nuts

He recently claimed that he talks to dead people. That's not all of his craziness, but it should be enough.

[tinrobot]

26. I told mine that he simply doesn't have the required experience for the job.

He's simply not qualified for the office he seeks. If wants to be President, then maybe run for congress or hold some statewide office and prove that he has the knowledge and temperament needed to govern effectively.

We ask receptionists to have years of related experience before hiring them, why not ask it for the most powerful position in our government?

In 2016 we hired someone with zero government experience to run the office. Look how that turned out.

Phrasing it like that takes politics completely out of the equation.

[jimfields33]

28. That was incredibly well written and awesome response

[et tu]

31. rfk jr. is a kino

kennedy in name only~

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

33. The problem with any "third party" candidate

is that candidate would take office with no natural group of supporters in Congress, so he or she would be able to accomplish next to nothing while in office.

Those who sincerely support any third party needs to work on building that party from the ground up, as has already been stated. City council, state house and senate, eventually have candidates running for the House and Senate. Then a presidential candidate.

As for RFK Jr, she needs to look closely at what he believes and says.

[cate94]

38. Well said!

If I were to add anything it would be about the danger of his anti-vax position.

[hay rick]

39. The harsher truth is that the choice is responsible adulthood, yes or no.

In the real world, third party voting and not voting both abdicate personal responsibility for the outcome of the election by passively accepting the selections of other members of society. Maybe both realistic choices are poor in terms of what could and should be done, but even a casual observer would have to admit that the live options are starkly different. Joining up with the less bad of two parties and working to make it better is responsible participation in the political process.

Third party advocacy at this time buys into the juvenile blame game. People who sat on the sidelines want to complain about how the game was played after they spurned the opportunity to be involved. A functional democracy requires many people to get their hands dirty.

[Warpy]

40. My approach would have been a little different

I'd have asked her what she thought of him first. Her answer would let me zero in for the kill a little more precisely.

Then again, no one has ever accused me of tact.

[ECL213]

42. I probably just would have told her he's batshit crazy.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

44. "But for Ralph Nader and Jill Stein, there would not have been a Republican elected president this century."

Link to tweet