Netanyahu Is Making Israel Radioactive (NYT)

[dalton99a]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/opinion/israel-hamas-war-netanyahu.html

https://archive.ph/iSKTf

Netanyahu Is Making Israel Radioactive
March 12, 2024
By Thomas L. Friedman

Israel today is in grave danger. With enemies like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and Iran, Israel should be enjoying the sympathy of much of the world. But it is not. Because of the way Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his extremist coalition have been conducting the war in Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank, Israel is becoming radioactive and diaspora Jewish communities everywhere increasingly insecure.

I fear it is about to get worse.

No fair-minded person could deny Israel the right of self-defense after the Hamas attack on Oct. 7 killed some 1,200 Israelis in one day. Women were sexually abused, and children were killed in front of their parents and parents in front of their children. Scores of abducted Israeli men, women, children and elderly people are still being held hostage in terrible conditions, now for more than 150 days.

But no fair-minded person can look at the Israeli campaign to destroy Hamas that has killed more than 30,000 Palestinians in Gaza, about a third of them fighters, and not conclude that something has gone terribly wrong there. The dead include thousands of children, and the survivors many orphans. So much of Gaza is now a wasteland of death and destruction, hunger and ruined homes. Urban warfare brings out the absolute worst in people, and that is certainly true for Israel in Gaza. This is a stain on the Jewish state.

...

[marble falls]

1. Good article, though I highly doubt the one third of the 30,000 dead Gazans were Hamas "fighters" ...

30,000 dead Gazans to 1,200 dead Israelis. Hardly a proportional response. A curse on Hamas and IDF.

[Oopsie Daisy]

3. War is not meant to be "proportional," it's meant to defeat the enemy.

This post from DUer known as "The Magistrate" may help to clarify some things.

War is not some sporting event, where dead people are points, and at some juncture 'enough' have been accumulated so the war ends. But that does seem to be how many guide their understanding of it.

War is the attempt of one party to a dispute to impose by violence what it cannot secure by purchase or reason. It ends when the party first resorting to violence secures its object against the violent objection of the other, or acknowledges its violence has failed to do so, and ceases to fight.

In war one does not so much strive to kill people in order to end their lives, as one kills people to convince other people they'll be next if they don't give up, or flee, or at the very least keep their heads down a while.

It is true that if one party to a war fields a soldiery who actively courts death, killing a good deal more is required than in the average run: such soldieries are not common to history.

It is also obvious that such a death-desiring soldiery, establishing itself in facilities and fighting positions beside, under, or over the dwellings of non-combatants, is going get a great many persons killed in course of war against them, who will suffer for no better reason than that they were in the way of people fighting the men here to fight till they died.

I suppose you might say that is worth it, if you favor the resolution of the dispute they are contending for, certainly no one opposed to it would agree.

If people do take up for a side which fields soldiery of this sort, and disposes them in that manner, they ought at least to be clear about what the goal actually sought by that side is.

[marble falls]

4. So war crime is an acceptable strategy to "defeat the enemy" as long as the war criminals win ...

... I guess "kill them all and let gawd sort them out" is good policy, then.

Curiously, have you served? If you did, do remember what they taught you about war crimes?

[Oopsie Daisy]

5. Hamas is the one guilty of war crimes.

[FoxNewsSucks]

13. Can't help but notice both questions were dodged. . .

[Oopsie Daisy]

19. No need to address false premises. That's a distraction.

Even addressing this accusation is a distraction. Bye.

[flashman13]

22. Make no mistake about it. Isreal and Hamas are both guilty of war crimes.

It takes some sort of warped logic to believe that razing a city of 2 million people to the ground and killing 30,000 plus people is somehow righteous. It has nothing to do with self defense. It is revenge pure and simple.

Revenge may feel good (and righteous) in the moment, but the fallout will live on. For every "Hamas fighter" that is killed ten more will step up to fill their place.

This fight has been ongoing for almost 100 years since the first riots directed against Jewish settlers. The stage is now set for another 100 years.

The irony here is that both side's goal is to drive the other into the sea. In the end both sides will be the loser.

I do not see any kind of peaceful end. I am afraid the dying has just begun. The four horsemen are on the ascent.

[Oopsie Daisy]

27. That old canard doesn't wash with me.

>> It takes some sort of warped logic to believe
Nice personal attack. Cool. I like how you worked that in there. I'm warped... got it.

>> For every "Hamas fighter" that is killed ten more will step up to fill their place.
That old canard doesn't wash with me. I guess the same thing could be said in reverse... or with regard to any conflict for that matter.

>> I do not see any kind of peaceful end. I am afraid the dying has just begun. The four horsemen are on the ascent.
Yes, I'm cynical too. Hamas does not have a good record when it comes to not breaking truces and being willing to stop calling for the destruction of Israel, or accepting a 2-state solution.

I don't really get into the religious "horsemen" stuff. But if that's your thing, okay.

[ECL213]

17. You do know when one side commits war crimes...

it does not preclude the other side from committing war crimes, as well.

[Happy Hoosier]

24. I don;t believe it has been establish that "War crimes" were committed.

Civilians can and do get hurt in war, and the law of war recognizes that. If Israel has committed "war crimes," They should answer for that. But I am unwilling to let hystrionic claims of "war crimes" and "genocide" go unchallenged.

The same could be said of Hamas, right? It is a war crime to use deliberately endanger civilian populations in defense, and yet, that's their basic strategy. It is their basic strategy precisely so that folks like you will decry Israel's "war crimes."

[Basic LA]

2. When even Friedman is this alarmed

You know the tide has turned on world opinion. He's about as centrist/moderate as they come, and a long-time friend of Israel.

[Beastly Boy]

6. When world opinion is calcilated by the number of posts on social media fueled by the likes of

Iran and Russia, I am very skeptical of its staying power or long term consequences.

[Sky Jewels]

10. Israel will not get the U.S. money and weapons it now takes for granted

when the younger generations move into full political power. It has lost Gen Z and a lot of Millennials too. They are sickened by the brutal occupation, apartheid and genocide being perpetrated by Netanyahu and his gang of right wing extremist criminals.

[Beastly Boy]

29. When those Gen Zers learn the actual meaning of

brutality of occupation, or apartheid or genocide, rather than accept what Russia and Iran tells them on social media, I have full confidence their outlook will change.

They are slow learners, but I am patient.

hell, they might even learn the difference between Netanyahu and Israel! Or Zionists and Jews.

[Sky Jewels]

38. They see the reality,

unlike millions of willfully ignorant older Americans who refuse to admit that the occupation has been years of brutality and apartheid inflicted by Israel.

Talk about slow learners.

[Beastly Boy]

40. When I was young and poorly informed, I was also certain I saw reality.

Turns out it was a certain perception of reality that I saw through the prism of my ignorance.

Oh and talking about slow learners: I only learned of the famous Alexander Pope phrase way into my thirties: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

Guilty as charged.

[Sky Jewels]

41. I'm pushing 60.

I no longer buy the pro-occupation propaganda. I was raised to support Israel, but it has lost me because I learned more about what it has done to the Palestinian people as I’ve lost tunnel vision and became more educated. Also, I knew about Alexander Pope when I was 18.

[Beastly Boy]

43. Sounds like we started reading Pope at about the same time.

Which doesn't appear to be the case with the definition of "apartheid".

This makes me question your "blinders" comment.

I find my definition of "apartheid" in the Rome Convention establishing the International Criminal Court, which is clearly inapplicable in describing Israel:

(h) "The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph
1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination
by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of
maintaining that regime

(For reference, Paragraph 1 lists all Crimes against Humanity under ICC's jurisdiction)

https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/RS-Eng.pdf

Whose definition of "apartheid" are you using?

[Basic LA]

18. He might mean the world-wide demonstrations.

And he does seem to fear, or warn of, serious consequences & repercussions down the line.
The world's horror & disgust at this Medieval retribution is maybe fueled by much more than some internet trolls.

[Beastly Boy]

32. I am sure there are nore than internet trolls involved.

There are committed demagogues, useful idiots, and some genuinely well meaning misinformed people too. I wouldn't even dismiss the traditional antisemites as the source.

[PufPuf23]

25. Maybe people simply know the difference between right and wrong?

Israel picks its leadership, maybe more than Hamas (that I detest).

See recent polls that many Israelis favor Trump. AIPAC gives money to more MAGA GOP members of Congress than Democrats. What is up with that?

Basic strategy looks to me for Israeli to put to bed the Palestinian issue once and for all with the assumption that, similar to other atrocities (like USA in Iraq), most memories and attention move on.

[Beastly Boy]

33. The thought occured to me.

Then I thought,maybe people see right and wrong clearly, but have difficulty determining the source of the wrong on their own.

Which brings me back to social media.

[Sky Jewels]

9. He had no problem with us invading Iraq and slaughtering

tens and tens and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis who had done nothing to us.

[Basic LA]

15. You're right, he didn't.

Good point, though he's clearly alarmed now. Also, I notice he doesn't say the U.S. is also "radioactive" although we're clearly complicit.

[Girard442]

7. Imagine a serious infection that triggers a massive immune response...

...that does even more damage.

Kind of what's happening here.

[LuvLoogie]

8. The longer Netanyahu and his allies are in charge, the closer it is to Israel's doom.

I wonder if Israeli's will realize that before it's too late.

[Mosby]

11. What do you think could happen?

Before it's "too late"?

[LuvLoogie]

12. Stop the settlements in the west bank. Make restitution to the Palestinians there.

Cease fire. Rebuild Gaza.

Get rid of Netanyahu and his allies.

Netanyahu's path leads to isolation. The IDF and Netanyahu knew.

[TheKentuckian]

30. The Palestinians can pay restitution to Israel for

participating in multiple genocidal wars and decades of terrorism.

Their demands can go to the devil.

If they want to end the war then like Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany they have the option of unconditional surrender.

[LuvLoogie]

36. There is no Palestinian state/empire/reich

Germany and Japan are/were
nation states with a fully mechanized industrial military complex.

[SoFlaBro]

31. And just what the fuck happens when it is "too late"?

[LuvLoogie]

34. Israel would continue on its ethnic cleansing

of Gaza unabated without funding from its allies.

[SoFlaBro]

37. Our little fucking 17% contribution to their military budget won't matter a fucking tinker's damn

[LuvLoogie]

42. It might not.

They don't need our subsidies in order to continue to level Gaza. I'm sure they are capable of building their own ordinance. Plenty of arms dealers that would sell to them direct.

[et tu]

14. big clue

bibi likes defendant 45, nuf said~

[Bev54]

16. He is a poster child as to what would become of US with Trump trying to skirt any legal accountability

I still think that Trump decided to run again after seeing his friend Bibi get back in to power.

[elocs]

20. "This is a stain on the Jewish state." A stain that will not be erased.

Netanyahu failed his nation after being warned of the potential Hamas attack a year earlier but passing it off as just big talk. He should be on trial for crimes against humanity. Israel has lost the moral high ground and won't get it back.

[Richard D]

21. What the F is a proportional response?

One to one? Does Israel stop after exactly 123,00 Palestinians are killed? What about the rapes? Should Israel count the rapes of 10/7 and rape that many Palestinians? Does Israel, therefore, need a new branch of their military made of sadists who will mutilate and torture citizens? One-to-one, of course, so that it all stays "proportional." Oh, and of course, kidnapping the exact number of civilians Hamas did and keeping them locked up underground on starvation rations and abused and raped? Help me understand this, please.

Or perhaps it can be determined that Israelis are more valuable than Palestinians, and rather than being on to one, it can be bounced up a bit, perhaps to two or three to one. I'm curious how the Palestinians will choose the "volunteered" to participate with their lives. Random lottery? The exact ages must all be the same to be truly proportional, so children and infants must be part of this. There are so many other factors that must be met to be truly proportional - intelligence, family members who will be affected, future potential, and far more. But proportionality must be maintained.

Jews, at least the vast majority, will not participate in this. So actors from different countries must be found who can perform the needed rapes, torture, and murder. So that they do so with the same gusto and sadism that Hamas butchered the Israelis, a suitable people must be found who hate Muslims with all their hearts. Otherwise, the torture would be half-hearted and would not be truly proportional. Of course, families of the victims would be forced to watch.

Or, since all of this is certainly too complex, a perfectly proportional number of deaths could be agreed upon. Is four too few, five enough, or six too many? I'm sure some would find any number too small, as others would find any number too large. One cannot deny the value Israel and Jews have contributed to the world that is highly disproportional to any other culture. So, the future loss to humanity should also be calculated.

Perhaps an international panel could be convened to determine the exact ramifications of proportionality, and a panel could be convened to determine who would be on the panel, of course.

In all this, I have not mentioned yet Hamas. What should their role be in this proportionality? Personally, I think every single agent of Hamas should be executed for each Israeli they butchered. That would be proportional, though resurrection would be needed. No matter what, it could never be enough.

Of course, in a heated topic like this, I must confess to some proportional degree of

[Act_of_Reparation]

23. The Porportionality Principle isn't about a response being proportional in damage to an offense.

It is about the incidental damage to civilians being proportional to the expected military advantage of an operation.

When critics say Israel's response is not proportional, they mean that the damage caused to civilians is excessive in relation to Israel's military objectives.

[Richard D]

26. Thank you for the clarification

I wasn't aware of that.

Then the problem is, who to believe? Israel is saying that 12,000 Hamas have been killed so far.
Hamas says 30,000 Gazans have been killed. Since Hamas includes their terrorists in the body count, 18,000 civilians and 12,000 terrorists, which leaves about 1.5 civilians dead for every terrorist. My understanding is that this number is low compared to other wars. It could go much lower as some believe the 30K death number is fabricated.

So, is this not then proportional? Obviously, no civilians should die in any war. The best way to prevent that is not to start the war in the first place. People are saying "genocide," yet are these the numbers of genocide or of a war?

While it may seem snarky, my questions are sincere.

[Act_of_Reparation]

28. Keeping an accurate accounting of incidental damages in wartime is virtually impossible.

All sides of a conflict have a vested interest in winning domestic and international sympathy, and will release whatever data is most favorable to their position. Objective third parties aren't usually present to keep an accurate tally of the damages, or if they are, they are being closely chaperoned by whomever controls access to the affected area.

With that in mind, one simply has to accept that no accounting of civilian casualties is going to be 100% accurate.

However, some things can be estimated. We know, for example that non-targeted tactics, like cutting off access to water, electricity, and food, will absolutely kill civilians, and that the number of civilian dead will keep increasing, in greater and greater number, for as long as the operation continues. Some enterprising individual with a good head for math can account for the total number of people living in Gaza, the average time one can survive without food or clean water, and correct for what aid is delivered, and arrive at some estimate of how many people are going to die as a consequence of that particular action.

As for the proportionality of Israel's actions in Gaza, the argument they are disproportionate assumes Israel's military objective is the release of the hostages taken on 10/7, and can be supported by the following:

1 - Israel's military tactics are indiscriminate, and are just as dangerous to the hostages as they are to Palestinian civilians. Putting the hostages in harm's way does not advance Israel towards its stated military objective of bringing the hostages home alive.

2 - Killing civilians risks turning international sympathy in favor of the Palestinians. This strengthens Hamas' hand at the bargaining table, which in turn dissuades capitulation. This means that a heavy handed response in Gaza may be working against Israel's stated goal of freeing the hostages (bearing in mind, that the longer the hostages remain in captivity, the greater their chances of being seriously injured or dying as a result).

As for genocide... I think most people fundamentally don't understand what the term means, or are being hyperbolic. Israel is not currently engaged in a coordinate effort to wipe the Palestinian people off the face of the planet. Twenty-one percent of Israel's population are Arab, and most of them are Israeli citizens. This conflict is fundamentally about Gaza and the city's governance (or lack thereof) for the past twenty years or so.

That being said, another unsavory term may apply here, and that is ethnic cleansing. This does not entail the eradication of a people, but the wholesale removal of them from a territory (e.g., the Trail of Tears). Israeli politicians have lamented Gaza and its people for some time now, with some openly wishing to hand the troublesome territory over to Egypt or to pressure Arab neighbors into relieving Gaza of a portion of its population as refugees (offers which the associated parties are, for good reason, ill-inclined to accept). Unable to rid themselves or the territory, or to politely shoo a significant segment of the population off to greener pastures, Israel is in effect putting pressure on these nations to reverse their policy on refugees as more and more Palestinian civilians die in the conflict.

[NYC2ATL]

35. Yah, this was obvious to anyone paying attention

Before October 7th even.

[SoFlaBro]

39. Nuttyahoo must be shown the door. Time for that motherfucker to step aside and let someone rational fucking lead.