So Citizens United is fine, but TikTok is not?

[mzmolly]

Last edited Wed Mar 13, 2024, 12:49 PM - Edit history (2)

Citizens United Paves Way for Foreign Governments to Influence U.S. Elections

Russian influence on Twitter is great, but kids having fun with TikTok is bad for America?



Edited to add more from NBC:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/chuck-todd-big-missing-piece-congress-rushed-tiktok-debate-rcna142959

[2naSalit]

1. At this moment...

It would be wise to understand why being lured into danger by strangers with candy is something we should avoid even though many have already been suckered in.

[mzmolly]

3. I don't understand the analogy in this case?

[2naSalit]

12. Hmm...

We, responsible adults, teach our children not to speak with or accept shiny things from strangers who would do them harm.

Why?

We try to encourage drug addicts to get off the substances even though they think they make them feel better, maybe they do make them feel better.

Why do we try to get them away from the substances, though?

We expect our representatives to understand and protect us from threats to our safety and give them license to take action to do so, sometimes we aren't thrilled about the action but it turns out to be for the best concerning our safety in most cases.

I would posit that this is a case in which we are being protected from harm on a national scale yet people are so self absorbed in a dangerous toy that they can't look up to see the danger they put us all in. If you managed to make a living using the toy, there's always something else in that line that is not involving the dangerous toy. The dangerous toy needs to be taken away since too many won't put it down like they were addicted to it.

All this high pitched squealing is partially actual users and a whole lot of misinfo-generators acting to keep the dangerous toy available and in use to our detriment regarding national security. If you can't understand that, I suggest you take to finding out why this action in Congress is taking place because it is necessary regardless of how some users feel.

Reality is chock full of hurt feelings and disappointments, people don't seem to like to heed clear warnings anymore. That's the part I don't get.

[dickthegrouch]

32. Everything you just said should also apply to guns.

Ban TikTok but not guns? Inconsistent.

[2naSalit]

34. I get your point in comparing the two...

Dangerous toys, one has been with us for decades, one can be controlled before the proverbial mass shootings begin, with the other which is relatively new. The same needs to be done with AI and cryptocash.

Guns are a different beast in that it has been around forever like racism has. See the problem with trying to compare them as like issues. They are similar like water and ice are made of H2O, after that they require a different approach.

[mzmolly]

49. I see. But why focus on one danger and allow multiple others to fester?

Why not have comprehensive legislation addressing social media in general?

Anyone who spent time on Twitter (X) around election time, saw multiple deep fakes of Biden supposedly groping children along with mass amounts of disinformation. We also saw the former pResident encourage a violent insurrection using the medium. Where is the Twitter ban legislation, or the demand for Musk to divest?

[2naSalit]

50. How many dragons...

Can you slay at one time, in one fell swoop, by depending on a herd of cats?

[mzmolly]

52. Several, if you address the larger

issue. See the article noted in the OP for examples.

[Demsrule86]

63. The candy is making Biden be the face of destroying TIK TOK...very unpoular with

younger voters. Notice Trump is against it now. He wasn't before. Also, no doubt some right-wing asshole will buy it and promote bullshit lies. It is a very foolish thing to do.

[LuvLoogie]

2. It's not just kids. There are a ton of great content creators and communities on that platform.

This is really about the powers that be killing community. "Chinese spies" is bullshit.

[mzmolly]

5. Agree.

eom

[Fullduplexxx]

14. They don't want an unregulated media exposing them and their Treason

[AZSkiffyGeek]

18. So the Democrats who voted for this are committing treason?

I'm sure you have proof that TikTok is exposing Democrats creating treason. I mean, why else would you go on a Democratic board and attack Democrats while defending the Chinese government?

[Demsrule86]

64. No- not treason. But it is a very foolish thing to do. It could allow more GOP

propaganda. It could also cause us to lose and launce Trump into the presidency.

[Ocelot II]

4. The problem with Tik Tok isn't that kids are having fun with their phones.

It's about concerns that user data on phones using the app could be accessed by Tik Tok and supplied to the Chinese government. Tik Tok won't be banned if it's divested.

[mzmolly]

6. I'm fine with divesting. But why not worry about Twitter?

And what is China going to do with my information? Smells like BS to me.

[Ocelot II]

8. I don't know if it's true or bullshit; just saying this is what all the fuss is about.

But personal data shouldn't be easily available to any entity, and a lot of people, not just teenagers, use Tik Tok, which is why some other countries are banning it as well.

[mzmolly]

9. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm all for consistency and regulation surrounding data privacy. That said, I'm more concerned about Russian influence in our elections at this point and I don't see congress addressing that.

[MadameButterfly]

11. THey could find people vulnerable to Chinese propaganda

and weaponize it in US elections, as Russia has done. just one guess. They are experts at controlling people, so they probably have a lot of ideas. It's not you necessarily, but what would they do if they could directly contact people caught up in Qanon and MAGA?

[mzmolly]

13. I'd like some consistency regarding foreign influence in our elections and regarding data privacy.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/chuck-todd-big-missing-piece-congress-rushed-tiktok-debate-rcna142959

Given this is an election year and young voters are potentially so crucial to the outcome, fear of an outside entity’s influencing the election through TikTok should be something that the government can prevent.

If congress has privacy and foreign influence concerns they should extend beyond a single platform is my point.

[MadameButterfly]

21. i agree with consistency and fixing the bigger problem

That doesn't speak to whether this move is a piece in the right direction. And waiting for bigger legislation to be written and passed...I'm not holding my breath. I'm just glad Republicans didn't change their stance as soon as Trump did.

[mzmolly]

28. I'll give you that, if this is the beginning. In the meantime, let's hope Musk doesn't buy

TikTok.

[MadameButterfly]

38. Yikes! In the meantime, could they divest him of Starlink

and anything else that meddles with our foreign policy?
And while they're at it make Social Media meet standards required of publishers?
How about some trust busting and breaking up power of oligarchs?
Don't get me started....

[mzmolly]

47. I agree. But 'TikTok' is the issue?

[MadameButterfly]

57. Right. A small step, perhaps in the right direction

[mzmolly]

70. Or, the only step.

And one that will piss off a huge portion of our voting block, without knowing who will control TikTok in the end.

[2naSalit]

51. Cheatolini...

Only changed his mind after one of the tiktok lobbyists visited him at magalaga last week, suddenly he's singing their song. That alone should give pause to anyone arguing against this legislation.

[mzmolly]

53. I don't believe a single word out of the mouth of

Trump.

[Igel]

26. Given information, an influencer can shape the message for you.

TikTok is an influencer. It gathers information and skews the message you hear.

Some people have tested it to see how quickly it zeroes in on your preferences and depending on the topic, does it very quickly. Then you might get videos that confirms your views and little else or stuff that might undermine your views. A lot of younger people get their news in small blips from TikTok. It's easy to encourage polarization and help fracture society.

Some think this a great thing. The PRC Chinese do.

Disintegration Warfare
The PLA International Relations Academy in Nanjing studied disintegration warfare from 2003 to 2009. Then in 2010 a PLA publisher issued Disintegration Warfare. A passage from chapter 3 of The Art of War, “To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill,” appears on the cover of Disintegration Warfare. The idea of disintegration warfare includes politics, economy, culture, psychology, military threats, conspiracy, media propaganda, law, information, and intelligence. All these concepts are clearly building on Sun Tzu’s ideas of deception, disruption, and subduing the enemy without fighting.

[mzmolly]

31. I don't often quote Chuck Todd but...

Congress should focus on our data on every platform, not just TikTok — putting its effort on the big picture when it comes to how much power our data has given to social media companies, whether TikTok, Meta, X, Snap or others. Focusing on one platform at a time is simply playing a game of whack-a-mole that the government (and we citizens) will inevitably lose.

This, from the article I posted in the OP.

[Johnny2X2X]

7. And Trump

Trump suddenly changed his tune after talking to people at TikTok, why? I can tell you why, TikTok and China got asswurances from Trump he'd help them in return for election interference on his behalf.

Twitter is already all in on Trump, they're promoting pro Trump and anti Biden Tweets while throttling pro Biden and anti Trump Tweets. It's clear they are affected what millions of users see. Facebook has cleaned up a lot and is probably more pro Biden right now. TikTok was going to be a big part of the trump misinformation campaign and now probably won't be. That alone makes this good.

[Voltaire2]

10. If the issue is data privacy PASS A FUCKING LAW PROTECTING DATA PRIVACY.

Otherwise this is just xenophobic anti-China bullshit.

[MadameButterfly]

15. yeah they should pass a law but

would that protect data in the hands of China? Or, could someone create a fun app here in America that China doesn't have access to?

[mzmolly]

17. Why is China a bigger concern than

Russia?

[Kennah]

19. Because the Bear has shown itself to be weak in Ukraine, and they've bludgeoned themselves for 2 years

[mzmolly]

22. They still have overwhelming

influence in our elections.

[Kennah]

23. Very true, and I suspect they'll continue, but I do worry more about China

[mzmolly]

25. I worry more about Russia installing their chosen dictator,

personally.

[Igel]

27. Why is China a lesser concern than Russia?

Most here would have been calling to ban or force divestiture of TikTok from its parent company had that company been based in Russia and in cahoots with Putin.

Heck, there were torches and pitchforks for Zuckerberg's head because Facebook merely allowed Russian bots (with constant problems that the bots tried to scrape information from end users).

Personally, I think Putin just wants the US gone and to have a bigger piece of ground as Lebensraum for "Russianess". Xi wants to reshape and restore imperial glory writ fantastical, with far more economic imperialism than Russia can pull off. Russia's an immediate threat, but the PRC is the larger and longer-term threat.

[Voltaire2]

35. China is not invading anyone.

What they are doing is threatening our domination of the global economic system. They are doing that basically by out competing us.

[MadameButterfly]

39. They've been threatening to invade Taiwan for years and

they have a history of invadining Indochina.

The results of Ukraine and our presidential election could influence this. It's the nature of autocracies to want more power.

[Voltaire2]

48. Sure, all that is true.

The point is not that China is perfect, it isn't. The point is that China is not currently doing anything remotely like what Russia is doing in Ukraine, or like Israel is in Gaza, or like our country has done repeatedly ever since I've been alive. They seem primarily to be interested in building their economy and expanding its international reach. We should stop trying to sabotage that with geopolitical shenanigans and instead compete better.

[MadameButterfly]

56. Why is it that whenever someone says a person or a country isn't "perfect" they are excusing atrocities

How about the horrific conditions for lithium miners where Chinese have a near monopoly in Africa? How did it go for Hong Kong? How is it going for the Weegers in China?

We don't need them, like Russia, to be messing with our voters. I prefer democracy, thank you.

As for competing better, this is complicated by low wages in China, government control of industries, espionage to steal our technology, etc. A perfectly level playing field with no safeguards might not be achievable.

[Voltaire2]

61. It is one global economic system

The 'horrific conditions for lithium miners' are used to produce the commodities we buy, they don't just benefit China.

This anti-China campaign is not about human rights or labor conditions or environmental devastation. It is about retaining our position as the hegemonic economic and military power.

'we don't need them' is nonsense. We no longer have the industrial base to replace them. That has been deliberate policy since the 80's.

[MadameButterfly]

65. Yes, we need the lithium but have no power over the conditions

under which it is mined in China owned companies. This is a problem. China's economic expansion may bring bucks in but it's not benevolent on the world stage.

it is not an anti-China campaign. It is about keeping our democracy out of the hands of China.

I didn't say we didn't need the Chinese nor am I suggesting we end trade with them. Read the whole sentence. We just don't need them messing with our voters.

[Voltaire2]

74. Did you mean Cobalt?

China is not a major source of lithium- Australia and Chile are.

A lot of batteries are made with both lithium and cobalt, and most of the cobalt comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo.

The DRC (not the PRC) is a mess. It has a barely functional central government and an ongoing civil war. The cobalt mining operations in the DRC, like similar operations across Africa and other peripheral regions are hugely exploitive and environmentally destructive.

Chinese companies gained financial control of about 80% of the cobalt mining operations in the DRC in the early 00’s, basically before western companies realized they were a critical resource. The Chinese control the output, the mined cobalt, they don’t generally operate the mines. This is indistinguishable from the way western enterprises manage their relationships with dubious operations around the globe.

[MadameButterfly]

79. I meant lithium where China also dominates mining in

Zimbabwe, Namibia, and DRC. I didn't know about Cobalt, but that is a similar, maybe bigger problem.

While western companies can't be trusted, easier to do something about it if answerable to voters and US regulations.

Here is a congressional hearing about cobalt in DRC. I'm guessing if it was a US company the hearing would be about changing the conditions rather than just avoiding the product altogether.
https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/from-cobalt-to-cars-how-china-exploits-child-and-forced-labor-in-the-congo

There's also lithium in the eastern provinces of Ukraine that Putin has claimed.

Here's hoping someone invents batteries that don't need mineral worth fighting wars over.

[Voltaire2]

85. Australia and Chile.

But whatever.

[MadameButterfly]

86. yes you said they have lots of lithium

i'm not talking about that. you keep arguing about a different topic. Goodbye Voltaire

[Voltaire2]

88. Huh?

You keep claiming lithium mining is a human rights problem. It isn’t. Cobalt is.

[MadameButterfly]

67. Yes, we need the lithium but we have no control over the conditions

under which it is mined in China owned companies. This is a problem. China's economic expansion may bring bucks in but it's not benevolent on the world stage.

it is not an anti-China campaign. It is about keeping our democracy out of the hands of China.

I didn't say we didn't need the Chinese nor am I suggesting we end trade with them. Read the whole sentence. We just don't need them messing with our voters.

[dickthegrouch]

40. Tibet? Vietnam? /nt

[Voltaire2]

33. See the EU.

While not perfect, their data privacy regulations at least provide a meaningful approach to the problem. Any company doing business in the EU has to conform to their rules for the business they conduct within the EU. Tik Tok would have to conform, Xhitter, Facebook, YouTube etc would all have to conform to meaningful regulations. Instead of xenophobic performance we could have substantive reform.

[mzmolly]

16. EXACTLY!

[Midnight Writer]

20. TikTok will not go away. Investors will line up to buy into it. Or replace it.

The objective of the legislation is to remove Chinese control (which includes massive data-mining and political influencing campaigns) from the platform.

[Kennah]

24. They will divest. That's my thinking behind why there was a delay.

[Igel]

29. But the propagandists can't continue the thought.

They're stuck on "ban" because that's the warning TikTok sent out.

Even NPR has trouble--their actual 4-5 minutes of news this morning, for example, included "ban" as motivation for "divestiture" with the goal of "stop the likely PRC influence and data sharing". Then "Morning Edition" went right back to the idea that Congress is one step closer to "banning" TikTok. (full stop)

[mzmolly]

30. I think if there is legislation as it relates. It should not end with

TikTok.

[TheRealNorth]

77. Yeah, the Republicans are going to buy it....

And make it another RW propaganda tool.

[pecosbob]

36. Yeah...rattlesnakes are dangerous. So are cottonmouths.

I won't tolerate the presence of either in my yard.

[mzmolly]

45. Seems logical. Much moreso than dealing with one problem and not

the other.

[womanofthehills]

37. Doubt TicToc is going anywhere

180 million Americans are on TicToc and it's good income for many. If its so horrible, why is our President on TicToc?

[MadameButterfly]

41. He's trying to reach young people.

But we don't have to sacrifice our national security to have fun apps to play with or for the president to connect with young people. There are other ways. Tic Toc itself is not horrible, it's China. I'd rather they not own reams of data on Americans. I like our freedom.

[Demsrule86]

66. Helping Trump win is not going to bolster National Security...young voters will punish us.

And I don't see TIK TOk as being worse than other sites.

[MadameButterfly]

68. Will passage of this bill help Trump?

He seems to be against it. I get that thins affects a young population that we need, and I don't know enough aboutTik Tok to know how this will affect the election. But I don't see why young voters will punish Dems for a truly bi-partisan bill. Do you really think they'll vote Trump on this issue?

[Demsrule86]

69. If it hurts Trump then it helps us. And Biden signs the bill which is why we get blamed. He will

be the face of the destruction of TIK TOK...and why would someone like Mnuchin be better?

[MadameButterfly]

75. What does Mnuchin have to do with this? n/t

[drray23]

84. he has said he is putting a group of investors together

to buy tiktok. We will end up with it being controlled by RW oligarchs

[MadameButterfly]

87. Yikes. If we become an autocracy, just as bad a China

Until then, as bad a X. It's all bad. Why do only RW people own media companies? It makes one pine for socialism.

[GuppyGal]

42. All this tiktok shit can go on youtube. nt

[Demsrule86]

73. It will be sold to a right wing millionaire...so Russia will have the influence.

[TheKentuckian]

43. Who is fine with Citizens United? Campaign finance was a swamp

even before that twisted decision so making it astronomically worse is lightyears from "fine".

[mzmolly]

44. The SCrOTUS and Republicans are fine with Citizens

Last edited Wed Mar 13, 2024, 06:46 PM - Edit history (1)

United.

[TheKentuckian]

54. They sure are. Maybe they are posting to get the message.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

It seemed like you were implying we were good with CU.

[mzmolly]

55. Oh heck no.

I was saying we have problems far beyond TikTok. Pardon me for not being more clear.

[PufPuf23]

58. Assume China is data mining TikTok.

If not using TikTok, China will figure out (and almost certainly already do) sneakier methods to obtain data.

The social and commercial media internet is all about, data mining by parties looking for an edge.

Have a cookie.

Much more concerned about Musk as a national security risk.

BTW don't personally have an account with TikTok or X but do have FB. Have been deliberately cutting down on any internet that requires a password and membership (but not DU).

[H2O Man]

59. Recommended.

I had to ask my son what Tik Tok is, and he explained it to me. We are in a very strange time.

[malaise]

60. K & R

Seriously strange

[Demsrule86]

62. If President Biden signs anything about TIK TOK, we could lose the election. It is a big deal

for younger voters...and Frankly, I don't want TIK TOK in the hands of rich Republicans like Mnuchin or others.

[mzmolly]

71. I agree.

I'm willing to listen to the rationale, but I don't think it helps us win the next election and I don't think TikTok is THE primary/only issue with data mining and election influence.

[Demsrule86]

72. And having rich right wing millionaires turns it over to the Russians.

I am against it...thanks for the response.

[Scrivener7]

80. THIS!!! All of this.

[TheRealNorth]

76. The Republicans are already recruiting investors....

To buy Tik Tok if/when they force the Chinese to sell.

https://apnews.com/article/tiktok-mnuchin-house-senate-ffdf37776e63a09bb6966d741df7093b

So I am sure that would end well

[mzmolly]

83. Right

I hope it dies in the Senate.

[wiggs]

78. Exactly. nt

[Scrivener7]

81. This is an excellent question.

[mzmolly]

82. Thank you.