The $10k Chinese EV that could blow away the competition.

[SunSeeker]

Ford Authority reported last week, Ford CEO Jim Farley recently stated that he views not only Chinese EVs in general as a threat, but specifically pointed to one, in general – the BYD Seagull. These comments don’t come as a huge surprise, per say, given the fact that the Chinese automaker recently lowered the price of this entry-level EV to a mere 69,800 yuan ($9,700), which is far, far cheaper than any all-electric vehicle currently sold in the U.S. Recently, Autoline Network took a closer look at the BYD Seagull, and came away with some important notes on what makes it tick.

This particular BYD Seagull has a sticker price of $11,500 and comes equipped with the larger 38.8 kWh battery pack. Looking around, one can find a few areas where cost-cutting measures are evident, but overall, it’s a pretty nice-looking vehicle that doesn’t appear to be some kind of bargain-basement build. There are things like a single windshield wiper instead of two, and there’s no rear wiper, but nothing terribly major.

Even the interior presents quite nicely and is not what one would expect in such a cheap car, and the Seagull even has contrast stitching and features like cruise control and wireless charging, coupled with four-wheel disc brakes. It reportedly rides comfortably and drives well, though it obviously won’t blow anyone away in terms of performance. Throw in the fact that it has 252 miles of range, and it’s pretty clear why people like Jim Farley are worried about the BYD Seagull making it to the U.S. market.
https://fordauthority.com/2024/03/heres-an-overview-of-the-ev-ford-ceo-says-is-threat-video/

[Celerity]

1. looks like it will make a large impact

[flashman13]

2. Looks more like a POS to me.

[Celerity]

3. I wager the sales figures will show that your hot take is refuted by many who cannot afford to drop $30+K on a new car

[Happy Hoosier]

17. Yugo mk II

I doubt this vehicle makes a significant impact in the US.

If we look at sales figures, most Americans would rather buy a better used car than a new down market car. The Fiat 500 is an example of a cheap car that was supposed to be a hit. It wasn’t. Americans love their cars, and not too many wanna be seen driving the bottom end of the market. It might do better in Europe.

[Celerity]

38. When I lived in the US it was staggering how many POS cars I saw. Something you rarely see here.

Americans love their cars, and not too many wanna be seen driving the bottom end of the market. It might do better in Europe.

I simply disagree with most of the historical analogies btw. It is a different paradigm now, at least for non MAGAts (they are going to make EV ownership a cultural, likely violent at some intersects, battleground).

We shall see who ends up being right.

[Happy Hoosier]

55. We shall. I am curious....

... why you think THIS car is the one that's gonna be different. I just don't see it.

[MichMan]

57. The best selling vehicles in the US annually are never the entry level basic transportation models

[Celerity]

60. The Tesla Model 3 joins the Toyota Camry as the only cars that rank in the top 10 most sold vehicles of 2023.

https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/

The Subaru Crosstrek is in the top 5 for sales in Vermont, Washington, Oregon, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, and Washington D.C.

The Tesla Model Y is the top-selling EV nationally and the top selling vehicle in 6 states and Washington D.C.

MAGATs and their fucking petrol sucking pickup trucks.

[SalamanderSleeps]

62. Bullshit. The Model T was an "entry level basic transportation model."

It created the demand that founded the U.S. car industry.

Getting from point A to point B inexpensively, and reliably, ultimately drives the transportation market.

The automaker that provides a small pickup for under 20,000 USD with even 200 miles of range, at highway speeds, will make more gold than they can eat.

Newton's 2nd law: The change of motion of an object is proportional to the force impressed; and is made in the direction of the straight line in which the force is impressed.

Times change, markets change.

VCR's went from 2,600 dollars to just 89 dollars in only 13 years.

Let that sink in.

[MichMan]

69. The Model T was introduced more than 100 years ago

Like you said, Times change, markets change. It has zero relevance to what consumers prefer today. It was sold to people that never had a automobile before. In spite of the fact that Henry Ford thought the Model T was the perfect vehicle and would satisfy the needs of consumers for decades to come, the market thought otherwise, and sales plummeted to such an extent that the Model A replaced it in 1929.

The main premise of the OP was a new vehicle that would be sold for $10k. That is a price point well below anything available today.

An example of a $20k pickup, which is twice as expensive, is not a game changer, because there are already cars currently selling for less than that now.

Your statement that "Getting from point A to point B inexpensively, and reliably, ultimately drives the transportation market." clearly isn't true, because none of the current top 10 selling vehicles are low cost basic entry level models.

Based on the sales numbers and supported by what I see driving daily, it is mid sized to full sized SUV and full size Pickup Trucks that are driving the transportation market.

[flashman13]

19. Think of a battery powered Yugo or Pinto and you'll get the idea.

[Celerity]

37. It's a different world now. Those examples are 40, 50 years old & no longer relevant. Not everything needs to be related

to the 60s, 70s or early 80s.

[MichMan]

54. The original poster referenced a Ford Model T

"This BYD could be the equivalent of Ford's Model T, in terms of putting people in EVs. The Model T was Ford's universal car that put the world on wheels. The Model T was introduced to the world in 1908. American car manufacturers haven't done anything revolutionary since."

[Celerity]

73. And?

The Model T was Ford's universal car that put the world on wheels. The Model T was introduced to the world in 1908. American car manufacturers haven't done anything revolutionary since.

Is meant to show lack of innovation.

[MichMan]

74. Pinto's and Yugo's aren't relevant, but a Model T is?

OK

[Celerity]

75. Two different concepts. nt

[SunSeeker]

4. Looks like the Chevy Bolt EV that I had for 2 years.

That thing had a real world range of only about 179 miles because of its shitty battery (it was advertised as having a 238 mile range). Then they all got recalled because the battery kept catching on fire. That's when I dumped that POS. But that POS cost me $26k in 2019 (and that's after thousands were knocked off the price with rebates and incentives!). I wouldn't have been as pissed if the Bolt had only cost $10k.

Sure, the BYD could end up being the EV equivalent of the Yugo. But unlike the Yugo, analysts indicate the BYD has decent build quality. That's more than you can say about the Bolt, or even some Teslas.

Ford, and the other American EV manufacturers, need to up their game and lower costs, or the Chinese will eat their lunch. This BYD could be the equivalent of Ford's Model T, in terms of putting people in EVs. The Model T was Ford's universal car that put the world on wheels. The Model T was introduced to the world in 1908.  American car manufacturers haven't done anything revolutionary since. It would be a shame, and devastating to our auto industry, if the Chinese beat us with the BYD.

[JanMichael]

66. Nothing revolutionary?? The Fiero? The K-Car?

The Pinto?

Phht.

[Wednesdays]

71. The Fiero! ROFL

I bought a used '84 Fiero in 1987. Within a year I dumped it because the engine kept catching fire!

[JanMichael]

72. Mine did too!

Plus you could stick your fingers through the window and the seal and bend the window out and stick your hand in and unlock it. Super secure

[SunSeeker]

81. LOL

[XorXor]

40. Maybe or maybe not.

We will see how it plays out. Such as if it's reliable, meets US safety standards, and whatnots. If it decent enough, then maybe it will be a catalyst for getting more higher quality and cheaper EVs produced domestically.

[NickB79]

5. It looks a lot like my old Scion xA subcompact

Call it a clown car if you like, but I absolutely loved that car. Made by Toyota so it ran forever, and got 45 mpg. Great daily commuter.

[NickB79]

6. There's an even cheaper model that uses a sodium-ion battery

Meaning no worries about securing lithium reserves, while still getting 190 miles per charge.

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/04/byds-seagull-starts-at-just-11300-and-has-sodium-ion-battery/

[EX500rider]

7. And how much will it be after it meets US safety standards?

You know, ABS brakes & Automatic Emergency Braking, electronic stability control, tire pressure monitors, multiple airbags, side impact protection, backup camera, Lower Anchors and Tethers for Children, adaptive cruise control, blind spot detection, lane departure warnings, and collision warning systems, etc

I am guessing a LOT more.

[Rstrstx]

12. Right, my first thought was whether this is street legal in the US

They had to cut a LOT of corners to get that price down. Reminds me of the Smart car that was all the rage in Europe back around 2000. They eventually brought it to the US but to make it legal here they had to modify it so much it ended up costing the price of a regular car. Still, a $12,000 EV with even 150 miles of range would be a BFD. I’ll believe it when I see it driving on the streets here.

[orthoclad]

21. I don't have any of those features on my Toyota

What are you talking about?

I have "multiple airbags" if you count driver & passenger.

These are not "US safety standards", but expensive bells and whistles.

Electric vehicles are inherently far simpler than ICE vehicles. They should be cheaper.

[EX500rider]

26. What year is your vehicle

Almost all the things I mentioned are currently required on new vehicles

[orthoclad]

29. What does that matter?

It's a perfectly functional vehicle.
I might add an after-market rear-view, but I DO know how to parallel park.

[EX500rider]

30. Because older vehicles weren't required to have those features

But they pass new laws every year and almost everything I posted is required on new vehicles sold in the US

[orthoclad]

31. Regulatory capture

I doubt if most of these "required" features actually add to safety in a properly-designed car. But they certainly add to profit margin.

[EX500rider]

39. I doubt the....

....National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), part of the Department of Transportation (DOT), is at all concerned with corporate profit.

And I'm not sure how adding expensive safety features necessarily increases the car's profit to the manufacturer.

Which of those features do you think does not increase safety?

[MichMan]

42. Well, you would be wrong

Tire Pressure Monitors were required after the Ford Explorer/Firestone tire issues when people died due to underinflated tires

Backup Cameras were mandated to prevent people from backing up into a child which happens hundreds of times a year

LATCH child car seat tethers were required to ensure that there was a standardized system for safely attaching a child car seat.

[orthoclad]

44. Ford again.

We have to buy these features because of poor corporate quality control.

Cars with all these "safety" features are full of people looking at the myriad distractions on their dashboard and wheel columns. You'll never convince me that the gadget-crazy cars of today are safer. Look around you while you're driving. Practically no one is watching the road.

I felt safer driving 10 years ago.

[MichMan]

53. Corporate Quality Control?

What QC would a vehicle maker do to ensure that inattentive drivers would keep the proper amount of air in their tires or look behind them before backing up over a child?

Please explain how either of those are related to poor quality control instead of stupid drivers ?

[NickB79]

41. A chunk of those aren't required on new cars

My 2024 Ford Maverick on order is the base model, and doesn't have several of the things you listed (adaptive cruise control, blind spot detection, lane departure warnings, and collision warning systems) because I opted out of adding them or going to the next, more expensive, trim level.

[EX500rider]

46. That's because pickup trucks and cars have different safety standards

[NickB79]

83. Well I'll be

That explains why my new truck is cheaper than almost any car available.

[getagrip_already]

8. There is no reason american cars couldnt have cheap models

With

Manual windows
Manual steering
Manual transmission
No radio
No a/c
Smaller
Etc

People weren't buying them in numbers to make them profitable. Margins were so low, you had to sell millions of them to make money, and then support costs started to eat you alive.

But there is a market. The trick is to be the only player and get out when others get in.

[MichMan]

33. No reason Americans can't build cheap models

Other than the fact that people aren't very interested in buying them.

[orthoclad]

48. EVs are intrinsically simpler

If we use the Rivian model, with wheel-hub motors, there are practically no moving parts. No gears and no transmission with all their attendant weight. No pumps, no fluids other than window-washer, very few sensors, no O2 sensor (common failure point), no cat conv, no spark control, no timing belts, no pulleys, no grease.

With good design and off-the-shelf simple electronics, they're cheap to manufacture and maintain.

They SHOULD be cheaper than ICE.

[MichMan]

49. What Rivian vehicles are $10,000 ?

The point isn't that in theory an EV should be cheaper than ICE, but consumers aren't willing to sacrifice what it takes to sell one at $10K. I imagine is cheaper building a vehicle with labor at poverty level wages rather than UAW labor. Does that mean production should be moved to countries that do so?

[orthoclad]

51. I dunno. Do they have all the regulatory-capture features?

[MichMan]

52. If they want to meet NHTSA regulations , they are required to

For those that would rather eschew safety regulations, there are always motorcycles as an option.

NHTSA has previously mandated seatbelts, padded interior components, fuel systems, airbags, windshield and glass standards, tire standards, crash test requirements, roof strength, lighting standards, braking standards and dozens and dozens of safety features required in vehicles. What do you think has caused deaths in auto crashes to decline year after year for decades?

Are you in favor of getting rid of all of them ?

[MichMan]

56. Perhaps you would prefer a car like this with none of those regulatory-capture features?

[RubyRose]

67. I can't live without AC in Florida but I agree with

not needing power everything and even at my age prefer a manual. My current car can’t open the passenger side windows because they are power and I’mtold it would cost hundreds to disassemble the doors to troubleshoot the harnesses to fix.

[getagrip_already]

68. Funny story.... when my son was looking to buy his first new car

He found an ad for a brand new current year Honda accord for a ridiculously low price. It was a standard transmission, but otherwise a nice model.

He went down and bought it right away. The salesman was upset. Kept trying to upsell him. Dissed him by telling him it was a standard and he didn't know how to drive one.

My kids all learned how to drive on a 20 year old Ford suv with Manual transmission.

He laughed and bought the car.

[mockmonkey]

9. No Thanks

It might make a big splash at first but when people find out what a piece of crap they just bought they will regret it. I'm not anti EV but I think we are at the very early stages of the EV. Maybe Honda and Toyota will come up with a better alternative.

The Chinese Government is not very good about being Honest about anything. You can't possibly judge the car by basic appearances. It's what's underneath the skin that's the problem. I hope that our Government is going to take a good hard look at what China is exporting.

?si=jbHN-xJQ6c86UU9N

[SunSeeker]

10. Chevy Bolt batteries caught on fire too. That's why I dumped mine.

[Polybius]

24. Teslas are by far the most reliable EV's

I know some won't buy one because of Musk, but there's an old saying: Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

[SunSeeker]

32. No, Teslas are not the most reliable EVs. Not even close.

https://caredge.com/guides/the-most-reliable-evs-according-to-consumer-reports-2024

[Polybius]

35. I mean their charging standards that they set

Love the Tesla fast charge that are popping up in lots of places.

[SunSeeker]

43. Yes, Teslas definitely have the best charging network. I think all EVs will end up on it.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-charging-standard-sweeps-across-evs-heres-when-the-switch-will-happen/

[Polybius]

59. Musk just makes me shake my head at times

He could literally spend 50 billion on charging stations, and still be one of the top 5 richest humans. He really needs to spend more.

[uponit7771]

45. Yes Tesla chargers are the best from experience most others are 100% crap though making planning

... a trip beyond the city tricky of not done with Tesla chargers.

[orthoclad]

50. That fast charge has problems.

1, it destroys the car battery much more quickly than slow charge.
2, that fast charge puts a HUGE instantaneous load on the power grid. Simple arithmetic. With widespread adoption, we'll see grid failures. Blackouts. Musk won't pay to upgrade the power grid. Privatize profit, socialize costs.

[Polybius]

84. Not entirely sure Musk should pay to upgrade the power grid

It's really the government's job, and the cost could be beyond what even he has. As for your first point, supposedly the newer models can handle the supercharging without any battery degradation. Besides, mine's a lease so no worries here.

[NickB79]

15. The cheapest model uses sodium-ion batteries

Which don't have the same fire hazard lithium does.

[orthoclad]

23. Like Detroit is honest?

Electric cars are inherently simpler. It wouldn't be hard to design a bare-bones electric commuter with decent quality and reliability - at low cost. But then we're talking profit margins and shareholder returns.

I've had several Fords. They earned the "Fix Or Repair Daily" moniker.

[WarGamer]

11. A couple things...

US crash standards... and 75 hp (similarly sized Chevy Bolt EV is 200hp)

Having said that... if they can get it to the USA and sell for 20k... it's a fine city car. Although the 75hp will be an issue.

[SunSeeker]

13. I had a 2005 Pontiac Vibe with only 130 hp and it was quite peppy.

Chirped its tires on takeoff!

The BYD Seagull only weighs about 2500 pounds. You don't need a lot of hp to move that small a load. But yeah, it's not gonna burn up the quarter mile.

[Wonder Why]

16. Don't we in this country call them golf carts?

[orthoclad]

28. As opposed to cab-crew pickups

full of exactly ONE person all the time?

[MichMan]

70. AKA the top selling vehicles year after year

[orthoclad]

27. Don't need as much horsepower

if you're not hauling horses.

The typical US BEV (equipped with hugely massive long-range batteries) spends a large portion of its battery storage and driving power moving those heavy batteries around.

What's the hummer BEV weigh, 9,000 lbs? I had a woodie station wagon that weighed half as much. If you're a pigeonweight car, 75 hp could be plenty.

[TheBlackAdder]

14. Looks like a modern version of the cars that are filling Chinese EV graveyards.

[area51]

18. "per say"?

Gotta love how so many jobs have been cut; who needs proofreaders or copy editors.

[HeartachesNhangovers]

20. Their spelling may be off, but at least they speak Latin.

[SunSeeker]

65. That's what hapens when you dictate to Siri to type it out for you. nt

Last edited Tue Mar 19, 2024, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)

[orthoclad]

22. Now if they could add solar panels

they'd really have something.

Every kWh from solar is less of a drain on the power grid.

[Polybius]

25. What kind of charging does it use?

Tesla standard?

[SunSeeker]

36. I think they can use Tesla chargers.

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2024, 02:38 AM - Edit history (1)

I know BYD Atto 3's can charge at some Tesla Supercharger sites, so it would seem like the BYD Seagull should as well. https://zecar.com/resources/byd-atto-3-charging-guide

[tinrobot]

47. It's a Chinese car currently sold in China, so it uses their standard.

Specifically, GB/T, which Chinese Teslas also use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB/T_charging_standard

If they ever brought it to the US, then they'd change that out to one of our standards.

[RandySF]

34. Li Auto stock is rising while Tesla sinks.

[Zeitghost]

58. Distributed...

through Harbor Freight I assume?

[SunSeeker]

63. Maybe Alibaba?

[Jeebo]

61. You get what you pay for.

That is the piece of homespun wisdom I would think about if I were considering buying one of these.

-- Ron

[SunSeeker]

64. If you're lucky you get what you paid for.

I certainly had no such luck when I bought my Chevy Bolt EV.

[Barry Markson]

76. Blow away the competition?

As in a bloodbath for the automotive industry?

Whose side are you on?

[SunSeeker]

79. The point is, American EV manufacturers need to up their game and lower costs, or the Chinese will eat their lunch.

This BYD could be the equivalent of Ford's Model T, in terms of putting people in EVs. The Model T was Ford's universal car that put the world on wheels. The Model T was introduced to the world in 1908.  American car manufacturers haven't done anything revolutionary since. It would be a shame, and devastating to our auto industry, if the Chinese beat us with the BYD.

Not sure if you were being serious or not, but for future reference, there is a sarcasm emoji available to you under "classic smilies".

Welcome to DU.

[doc03]

77. Looks like a death trap nt

[SunSeeker]

80. Maybe. Like my Chevy Bolt was.

[Aussie105]

78. $10K? Yes please!

In Australia though:

"A circa-$31,000 starting price for the Dolphin Mini would indisputably hand it the crown as Australia’s cheapest electric vehicle, undercutting its bigger BYD Dolphin hatch sibling by the best part of $8000 and, crucially, the upcoming Hyundai Casper small electric SUV, which is tipped to start somewhere around the $35,000 mark."

Dolphin mini = seagull.

Cheapest cars here are $20K for comparison. (All ICE.)

Kia Picanto S
Suzuki Baleno GL
Mitsubishi Mirage LS
MG3 Core
Kia Rio S manual

For AU $31K, no thanks.

[Prairie_Seagull]

82. If we are to solve/at least slow down the climate crisis.

I believe it is going to take a paradigm shift in thinking. Is an inexpenive errand EV part of the solution. I think so. American auto industry should consider their responsibility to someone other than there share holders. Who knows It could even be good for the bottom line.

IMO.