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kentuck

(111,110 posts)
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:33 AM Mar 30

Should Christopher Wray and Merrick Garland maintain their silence?

Even with Judges speaking up about the danger posed by Donald J Trump?

Should they make any sort of statement? What if Chris Wray were to say that "Donald Trump has been warned about threatening violence against officers of the Court and he should not act surprised when the FBI shows up at his door."

Merrick Garland could make a simple statement that "every American citizen lives under the same laws and Donald Trump is no exception".

But we have heard nothing. As the American justice system is under attack, the guardians are silent.

It does not instill a lot of confidence.

44 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Should Christopher Wray and Merrick Garland maintain their silence? (Original Post) kentuck Mar 30 OP
Kid gloves for Trump. Has been this way since Jan. 6. boston bean Mar 30 #1
Don't hold your breath. spanone Mar 30 #2
Pretty sure I've heard Garland say words to that effect vanlassie Mar 30 #3
Right. More than once. brush Mar 30 #4
the 'do-nothing' DOJ brought two multi-felony federal indictments against Trump bigtree Mar 30 #6
J6 was over 3 years ago. trump will be tried beginning next month, but by... brush Mar 30 #12
that's not an accurate measure of this prosecution bigtree Mar 30 #16
Oh, please. Another long-winded harange from you making excuses... brush Mar 30 #20
are you able to read it? bigtree Mar 30 #22
I read it. It's the same all the time from you. Garland was late... brush Mar 30 #24
How is he late when he handed off a "fast moving investigation" to Jack Smith bigtree Mar 30 #25
It seems like it is a continuing crime spree... kentuck Mar 30 #26
what crime is that? bigtree Mar 30 #29
Crimes that have not been charged, such as breaking the gag order, obstruction of justice, .. kentuck Mar 30 #30
the gag orders are the responsibility of the judges that issue them bigtree Mar 30 #34
Late. He should've taken charge immediately of the case himself once... brush Mar 30 #32
how do YOU know he didn't 'take charge' once he was settled bigtree Mar 30 #36
Isn't it obvious? He appointed a special counsel to do it. brush Mar 30 #37
SC was appointed AFTER Garland had amassed more evidence than Mueller's entire Russia investigation bigtree Mar 30 #39
Yeah, sure. brush Mar 30 #40
receipts bigtree Mar 30 #44
To no effect. Boomerproud Mar 30 #14
And before the gag orders were instituted... kentuck Mar 30 #15
the Trump prosecution is in Jack Smith's hands bigtree Mar 30 #5
Merrick Garland has repeatedly said no one is above the law. TwilightZone Mar 30 #7
But the US judicial system simply doesn't use the law that's over Trump's head. Model35mech Mar 30 #19
Their hands are tied gab13by13 Mar 30 #8
They appear to have tied their own hands Model35mech Mar 30 #23
How many gag orders have there been now? Seems we just need a judge to revoke his bail the he violated. brush Mar 30 #38
I'd also suggest that maybe the people responsible for the tailgate Igel Mar 30 #43
Wray is on the clown's side and Garland MOMFUDSKI Mar 30 #9
Trump is playing a game of chicken with them. If they try to throttle him, bucolic_frolic Mar 30 #10
Garland has said, "every American citizen lives under the same laws and Donald Trump is no exception". republianmushroom Mar 30 #11
The law always favors the wealthy. They buy the biggest armies of lawyers. usonian Mar 30 #13
Point taken. Still though, laws are there to revoke the criminal defendant's bail... brush Mar 30 #21
Someone has to have the guts to do it. I'd have put a shock collar on him long ago. usonian Mar 30 #28
Heehee. Love the photos. brush Mar 30 #35
Crickets. surfered Mar 30 #17
Perhaps they are cowed, impotent, obeying a stream of orders from on high which we know nothing about. Magoo48 Mar 30 #18
Would that MORE FEDERAL JUDGES speak up. Kid Berwyn Mar 30 #27
Don't count on Garland for anything, IMO, he's useless. Wray should speak up, clean his department up. Hikerchick57 Mar 30 #31
They shouldn't retain their jobs. gibraltar72 Mar 30 #33
If they would lock him up NOW, bet he'd stop delaying all his trials. nt Trueblue Texan Mar 30 #41
They're both FS toadies. Mr. Evil Mar 30 #42

boston bean

(36,224 posts)
1. Kid gloves for Trump. Has been this way since Jan. 6.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:35 AM
Mar 30

They were hoping he would fade away. Let time lapse, and once Trump announced we have Jack Smith.

Total clusterfuck.

brush

(53,925 posts)
4. Right. More than once.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:45 AM
Mar 30

Last edited Sat Mar 30, 2024, 12:22 PM - Edit history (1)

That's the problem.

We've got a do-nothing House and a do-nothing DOJ/FBI.

bigtree

(86,008 posts)
6. the 'do-nothing' DOJ brought two multi-felony federal indictments against Trump
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:57 AM
Mar 30

...which are intact and making their way through the court process after having been successfully navigated through two grand juries.

Claiming DOJ is doing nothing is a obvious untruth.

brush

(53,925 posts)
12. J6 was over 3 years ago. trump will be tried beginning next month, but by...
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 12:21 PM
Mar 30

the Manhattan DA.

trump's delaying tactics have out maneuvered the DOJ.

Not good.

bigtree

(86,008 posts)
16. that's not an accurate measure of this prosecution
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:06 PM
Mar 30

...you haven't allowed for the court challenges to evidence and testimony which held up most of the progress through the two grand juries who the federal justice system uses to ultimately decide when and if to bring charges, not just DOJ declaring the case is fit to try in court.

All of the phones seized from Guiliani, Clark, Meadows, Eastman and others in 2021 and 2022 took over two years to even get unlocked. The challenges to Trump lawyer testimony didn't get resolved until the final appeal before a panel of judges removed the attorney/client protections for at least 5 key Trump attorneys working in the WH.

And don't tell me that Garland should have jumped into court half-assed, because that's not only an inaccurate view of how the federal indictment process works, it's a sorry representation of what I'd expect DOJ to use to prosecute a former president or anyone else accused of such an extensive record of criminal activity.

Maybe you want Garland to go to court before any of those appeals were resolved, and you assume what DOJ had in the way of evidence supportable in court is a simple as cutting and pasting news articles onto court filings; or what some internet prosecutor believes is a slam-dunk case as they can tell from what they've gathered on their computers?

Let's not just make the assumption that the over 20 prosecutors working on this are somehow less interested in moving the cases forward that anyone else.

And you can complain all you want about time passed, but it's just tough shit to the legal process which has myriad protections for defendants, especially against government prosecutions.

Fact remains, the charges are still intact and pending in actual courts before actual judges, and eventually, before actual juries. Those are the arbiters of most of the time taken; of most of the time needed, yet to come.

The issue before us is not whether that process is consequential. The consequences are playing out right in front of us, no matter how many obstacles defendants are allowed to put in front of prosecutions, all to widely expected guilty verdicts.

DOJ can't stop Trump from getting the votes needed to be reelected and threatening that ongoing process of a continuing investigation and two federal prosecutions, but voters can.

I suspect that's why DOJ is such an easy and opportunistic target. There's nothing unusual about a high-profile, well-financed defense dragging a prosecution on and on. The only obstacle is this certainty that an elected Trump would try and end it.

So what are we really talking about here?

You want to argue that it's somehow the responsibility of the DOJ to ensure the defeat of a candidate they can't bar from running or being elected by bringing either charges or convictions?

That's really what this is about, because DOJ has done, and is still doing their job, albeit hindered by defendant rights to appeal, and the judges who acquiesce to those defense challenges to ongoing prosecutions.

They're not any slower than the grand juries who heard evidence and decided to recommend charges; or the judges and justices who've heard arguments from DOJ and the defendant on appeals and challenges and took their sweet time to rule on them.

You can't credibly put all of this on DOJ's doorstep by pointing to the absurdly incomplete and summary judgment of what's in your narrow view of this prosecution. You just can't.

The charges the SC brought are still completely intact and pending. The main thing that significantly threatens those effort's ultimate success right now, outside of the SCOTUS, is OUR OWN effort to defend this presidency against Trump taking over.

brush

(53,925 posts)
20. Oh, please. Another long-winded harange from you making excuses...
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:18 PM
Mar 30

for trump not being tried yet. We've been over this before. Garland started late, appointed SC Smith late, just all around bungled the whole spectacle of a president exciting an insurrection against the US government...and is out on bail but still remains free to threaten judges, a judge's daughter, threaten blood baths and the President by posting a photo of a bound and gagged man supposed to be Joe Biden.

Give it a rest. trump and his lawyers have outsmarted Garland so badly it's embarrassing.

bigtree

(86,008 posts)
22. are you able to read it?
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:28 PM
Mar 30

...this retort from you is a good example, in my view, of why you've posted these absurdly false representations of what DOJ is doing.

In my most sympathetic reasoning of your posted responses, you appear to have read nothing of significance about the investigations, and have eschewed all that doesn't comport to this cynicism and apathy about the ongoing prosecutions and continuing investigations.

It's all just ridiculously demagougic and misinforming. But, you should realize, by now, that the explanations I post in response are not actually trying to change your mind about anything.

But, perhaps you should be reminded that Merrick Garland assigned Jack Smith to the prosecution of Trump in November 2022. He was not only 'up to that task,' he completed it by providing the incoming SC with more evidence than Mueller had assembled in his entire Russia probe, so that Smith came aboard what was described by Elie Honig at the time as a "fast moving investigation."

brush

(53,925 posts)
24. I read it. It's the same all the time from you. Garland was late...
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:34 PM
Mar 30

and here we are now in doubt in any of the cases bought by the DOJ against trump will happen before the election.

bigtree

(86,008 posts)
25. How is he late when he handed off a "fast moving investigation" to Jack Smith
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:42 PM
Mar 30

...which had already assembled more evidence at the time he was appointed than Mueller's entire Russia probe?

Smith (took) over a staff that’s already nearly twice the size of Robert Mueller’s team of lawyers who worked on the Russia probe.  A team of 20 prosecutors investigating January 6 and the effort to overturn the 2020 election are in the process of moving to work under Smith, according to multiple people familiar with the team.

Smith will also take on national security investigators already working the probe into the potential mishandling of federal records taken to Mar-a-Lago after Trump left the White House.

Together, the twin investigations have already established more evidence than what Mueller started with, including from a year-long financial probe that’s largely flown under the radar.

“Mueller was starting virtually from scratch, whereas Jack Smith is seemingly integrating on the fly into an active, fast-moving investigation,” said Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor and senior CNN legal analyst.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/11/politics/jack-smith-special-counsel-high-profile-moves-trump-criminal-investigations/index.html

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
26. It seems like it is a continuing crime spree...
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:46 PM
Mar 30

...and we are looking at present crimes, not crimes that happened in the past.

What do we do about the present crimes?

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
30. Crimes that have not been charged, such as breaking the gag order, obstruction of justice, ..
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:51 PM
Mar 30

threatening violence, and incitement with false statements. Never a day goes by...

bigtree

(86,008 posts)
34. the gag orders are the responsibility of the judges that issue them
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 02:01 PM
Mar 30

...and the obstruction you mention isn't clear criminality, and is always subject to prosecution, and more importantly, already being managed in court by the Special Counsel.

What would be the actual legal value in DOJ bringing a prosecution for interfering with a prosecution already before a judge?

My feeling is that judges aren't so intent on enforcing their own orders, as they are focused primarily on getting a trial underway and keeping it on track. That includes allowing for challenges and appeals- within reason, and arbitrated by the court.

When that's affected, they will respond with escalating sanctions, up to jail. It's not going to be an overt fight, at least not unless Trump does something that outstrips the earlier sanctions. It's going to be a process, less than a blunt rebuke, I believe. I could be wrong. It depends on the judge.

I'm not seeing where there are Trump crimes outside of that process that aren't being addressed, but the SC investigations are still ostensibly open.

brush

(53,925 posts)
32. Late. He should've taken charge immediately of the case himself once...
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:56 PM
Mar 30

he was settled in office. There was no need to a special counsel months and months later. The prosecution against the trump cabal who excited the insurrection should've been Garland's first order of business once he took office. The DOJ should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time...meaning subordinates could've prosecuted the actual Capitol rioters while Garland personally went after trump, the one most responsible for J6.

If that had happened immediately trump would've already been tried.

bigtree

(86,008 posts)
36. how do YOU know he didn't 'take charge' once he was settled
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 02:05 PM
Mar 30

...did you read that somewhere?

How would he 'already be tried' on anything significant or convincing to a jury without the efforts Garland made before he appointed the man who quickend and deepened an already 'fast-moving investigation' as described by reports?

And Garland did, indeed, prosecute rioters and riot leaders on charges eventually resulting in charges up to sedition and obstruction, at the same time he was gathering 'more evidence than Mueller had in his entire Russia probe' BEFORE he hired Jack Smith.

bigtree

(86,008 posts)
39. SC was appointed AFTER Garland had amassed more evidence than Mueller's entire Russia investigation
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 02:13 PM
Mar 30

...basically handed Jack Smith a "fast moving investigation' with more than 20 prosecutors already assigned to it take to the finish line.

Lol, at thinking you believe Merrick Garland did the investigating himself as Attorney General.

bigtree

(86,008 posts)
5. the Trump prosecution is in Jack Smith's hands
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 11:53 AM
Mar 30

...and he's doing his speaking in court.

Merrick Garland has already spoken to his department's obligation to respond to threats of violence:


Read Merrick Garland's Full Jan. 6 Speech

Updated Jan 5, 2022 at 4:19 PM

(excerpt)

In a democracy, people vote, argue, and debate — often vociferously — in order to achieve the policy outcomes they desire. But in a democracy, people must not employ violence or unlawful threats of violence to affect that outcome.

Citizens must not be intimidated from exercising their constitutional rights to free expression and association by such unlawful conduct. The Justice Department will continue to investigate violence and illegal threats of violence, disrupt that violence before it occurs, and hold perpetrators accountable.

We have marshaled the resources of the department to address the rising violence and criminal threats of violence against election workers, against flight crews, against school personnel, against journalists, against members of Congress, and against federal agents, prosecutors, and judges. In 2021, the department charged more defendants in criminal threat cases than in any year in at least the last five. As we do this work, we are guided by our commitment to protect civil liberties, including the First Amendment rights of all citizens.

The department has been clear that expressing a political belief or ideology, no matter how vociferously, is not a crime. We do not investigate or prosecute people because of their views. Peacefully expressing a view or ideology — no matter how extreme — is protected by the First Amendment. But illegally threatening to harm or kill another person is not.

There is no First Amendment right to unlawfully threaten to harm or kill someone. As Justice Scalia noted in R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, true “threats of violence are outside the First Amendment” because laws that punish such threats “protect[] individuals from the fear of violence, from the disruption that fear engenders, and from the possibility that the threatened violence will occur.”

The latter point hits particularly close to home for those of us who have investigated tragedies ranging from the Oklahoma City bombing to the January 6th attack on the Capitol.

The time to address threats is when they are made, not after the tragedy has struck. As employees of the nation’s largest law enforcement agency, each of us understands that we have an obligation to protect our citizens from violence and fear of violence. And we will continue to do our part to provide that protection.

But the Justice Department cannot do it alone. The responsibility to bring an end to violence and threats of violence against those who serve the public is one that all Americans share.

Model35mech

(1,562 posts)
19. But the US judicial system simply doesn't use the law that's over Trump's head.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:15 PM
Mar 30

They are scared out of their damned minds that he will bring about ruination if they confront him

That's how coercion and intimidation work. He's not above the law, but no one in the justice system will measure him against the high standards of the f###ing law.

gab13by13

(21,442 posts)
8. Their hands are tied
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 12:17 PM
Mar 30

We do not have adequate hate speech laws in this country. The threats need to be specific and actionable.

Model35mech

(1,562 posts)
23. They appear to have tied their own hands
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:30 PM
Mar 30

I know that's a conundrum but so it seems.

He's THE hope for their evangelical revolution. they believe he will tear down what exists. And they foolishly think that they will erect their impossible dream in the place of Trump's autocratic schemes.

We did this sort of misplace faith in dreams in the early 1860's. It resulted in The Lost Cause, and the destruction of southern society. it will end similarly although the damage will have a different geography

brush

(53,925 posts)
38. How many gag orders have there been now? Seems we just need a judge to revoke his bail the he violated.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 02:12 PM
Mar 30

I mean the MFer threatened the president with that photo of a bound and gagged man supposed to be Joe Biden. Enough is way past enough.

Igel

(35,374 posts)
43. I'd also suggest that maybe the people responsible for the tailgate
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 02:27 PM
Mar 30

should be first in line.

Haven't seen a mention of them. Or of the person who actually videoed and posted the "speech". Do we know that person's motives and intent, so can we actually judge their goodness? Did they mean to say, "Hey, great!" or did they mean to say, "Let's track down this people and destroy them!"?

bucolic_frolic

(43,366 posts)
10. Trump is playing a game of chicken with them. If they try to throttle him,
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 12:18 PM
Mar 30

they don't exactly know what he will do. Surely intelligence is monitoring social media and known dangers for threats. So there is that.

Trump becomes more of a martyr in MAGA eyes if he's gagged. Do you want a martyr, or do you want deranged? He is destroying his own public image into a raging lunatic. They may know more about his health conditions than most of us can observe.

republianmushroom

(13,749 posts)
11. Garland has said, "every American citizen lives under the same laws and Donald Trump is no exception".
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 12:19 PM
Mar 30

The above statement is true, Garland has said this or something similar.

But these laws are just enforced differently, if your name is trump, which Garland hasn't
said but has shown. IMO

38 months and counting

usonian

(9,916 posts)
13. The law always favors the wealthy. They buy the biggest armies of lawyers.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 12:34 PM
Mar 30

So do you see the brilliant strategy here?

Nickel and dime the Don until he can't afford any lawyers!

Why, in 50 years, he'll be broke.



Right.

brush

(53,925 posts)
21. Point taken. Still though, laws are there to revoke the criminal defendant's bail...
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:24 PM
Mar 30

for threatening blood baths, judges, court personnel, a judge's daughter, and now the President.

Enough is enought, throw the orange turd in jail.

usonian

(9,916 posts)
28. Someone has to have the guts to do it. I'd have put a shock collar on him long ago.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:48 PM
Mar 30

CONTROLLED BY KIDS!!!



LOOK AT THE MAN JUMP!!


I'd l ike to see a judge show some cojones and smack down the world's second most defiant criminal.

Magoo48

(4,721 posts)
18. Perhaps they are cowed, impotent, obeying a stream of orders from on high which we know nothing about.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:13 PM
Mar 30

under threat personally or professionally, secretly fascist, who the fuck knows.

I do know there is a lot of silence from legions of “powerful people” who are behaving like teenage wallflowers at the big dance.

There are thousands of we peons who stand up in our social circles regularly and fight for and defend democracy and freedom. I wish our timid timid leaders would catch a fuckin’ clue.

Kid Berwyn

(14,992 posts)
27. Would that MORE FEDERAL JUDGES speak up.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:47 PM
Mar 30

Make their voices heard -- not just to the orange traitor or to We the People, but by SCOTUS.

The "conservative" justices need to know their shenanigans on behalf of Trumputin won't wash.

ETA: It isn't Garland or Wray's job to opine in public on what they're investigating. Hope they are making their voices heard in their appropriate offices about what needs be done to keep Putin's puppet's gob shut.

Hikerchick57

(118 posts)
31. Don't count on Garland for anything, IMO, he's useless. Wray should speak up, clean his department up.
Sat Mar 30, 2024, 01:55 PM
Mar 30

I would really like to see Gen. Milley speak up, he saved the nation a few times. He’s a private citizen now isn’t he?

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