General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShould Christopher Wray and Merrick Garland maintain their silence?
Even with Judges speaking up about the danger posed by Donald J Trump?
Should they make any sort of statement? What if Chris Wray were to say that "Donald Trump has been warned about threatening violence against officers of the Court and he should not act surprised when the FBI shows up at his door."
Merrick Garland could make a simple statement that "every American citizen lives under the same laws and Donald Trump is no exception".
But we have heard nothing. As the American justice system is under attack, the guardians are silent.
It does not instill a lot of confidence.
boston bean
(36,224 posts)They were hoping he would fade away. Let time lapse, and once Trump announced we have Jack Smith.
Total clusterfuck.
spanone
(135,900 posts)vanlassie
(5,693 posts)at more than one indictment.
brush
(53,925 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 30, 2024, 12:22 PM - Edit history (1)
That's the problem.
We've got a do-nothing House and a do-nothing DOJ/FBI.
bigtree
(86,008 posts)...which are intact and making their way through the court process after having been successfully navigated through two grand juries.
Claiming DOJ is doing nothing is a obvious untruth.
brush
(53,925 posts)the Manhattan DA.
trump's delaying tactics have out maneuvered the DOJ.
Not good.
bigtree
(86,008 posts)...you haven't allowed for the court challenges to evidence and testimony which held up most of the progress through the two grand juries who the federal justice system uses to ultimately decide when and if to bring charges, not just DOJ declaring the case is fit to try in court.
All of the phones seized from Guiliani, Clark, Meadows, Eastman and others in 2021 and 2022 took over two years to even get unlocked. The challenges to Trump lawyer testimony didn't get resolved until the final appeal before a panel of judges removed the attorney/client protections for at least 5 key Trump attorneys working in the WH.
And don't tell me that Garland should have jumped into court half-assed, because that's not only an inaccurate view of how the federal indictment process works, it's a sorry representation of what I'd expect DOJ to use to prosecute a former president or anyone else accused of such an extensive record of criminal activity.
Maybe you want Garland to go to court before any of those appeals were resolved, and you assume what DOJ had in the way of evidence supportable in court is a simple as cutting and pasting news articles onto court filings; or what some internet prosecutor believes is a slam-dunk case as they can tell from what they've gathered on their computers?
Let's not just make the assumption that the over 20 prosecutors working on this are somehow less interested in moving the cases forward that anyone else.
And you can complain all you want about time passed, but it's just tough shit to the legal process which has myriad protections for defendants, especially against government prosecutions.
Fact remains, the charges are still intact and pending in actual courts before actual judges, and eventually, before actual juries. Those are the arbiters of most of the time taken; of most of the time needed, yet to come.
The issue before us is not whether that process is consequential. The consequences are playing out right in front of us, no matter how many obstacles defendants are allowed to put in front of prosecutions, all to widely expected guilty verdicts.
DOJ can't stop Trump from getting the votes needed to be reelected and threatening that ongoing process of a continuing investigation and two federal prosecutions, but voters can.
I suspect that's why DOJ is such an easy and opportunistic target. There's nothing unusual about a high-profile, well-financed defense dragging a prosecution on and on. The only obstacle is this certainty that an elected Trump would try and end it.
So what are we really talking about here?
You want to argue that it's somehow the responsibility of the DOJ to ensure the defeat of a candidate they can't bar from running or being elected by bringing either charges or convictions?
That's really what this is about, because DOJ has done, and is still doing their job, albeit hindered by defendant rights to appeal, and the judges who acquiesce to those defense challenges to ongoing prosecutions.
They're not any slower than the grand juries who heard evidence and decided to recommend charges; or the judges and justices who've heard arguments from DOJ and the defendant on appeals and challenges and took their sweet time to rule on them.
You can't credibly put all of this on DOJ's doorstep by pointing to the absurdly incomplete and summary judgment of what's in your narrow view of this prosecution. You just can't.
The charges the SC brought are still completely intact and pending. The main thing that significantly threatens those effort's ultimate success right now, outside of the SCOTUS, is OUR OWN effort to defend this presidency against Trump taking over.
brush
(53,925 posts)for trump not being tried yet. We've been over this before. Garland started late, appointed SC Smith late, just all around bungled the whole spectacle of a president exciting an insurrection against the US government...and is out on bail but still remains free to threaten judges, a judge's daughter, threaten blood baths and the President by posting a photo of a bound and gagged man supposed to be Joe Biden.
Give it a rest. trump and his lawyers have outsmarted Garland so badly it's embarrassing.
bigtree
(86,008 posts)...this retort from you is a good example, in my view, of why you've posted these absurdly false representations of what DOJ is doing.
In my most sympathetic reasoning of your posted responses, you appear to have read nothing of significance about the investigations, and have eschewed all that doesn't comport to this cynicism and apathy about the ongoing prosecutions and continuing investigations.
It's all just ridiculously demagougic and misinforming. But, you should realize, by now, that the explanations I post in response are not actually trying to change your mind about anything.
But, perhaps you should be reminded that Merrick Garland assigned Jack Smith to the prosecution of Trump in November 2022. He was not only 'up to that task,' he completed it by providing the incoming SC with more evidence than Mueller had assembled in his entire Russia probe, so that Smith came aboard what was described by Elie Honig at the time as a "fast moving investigation."
brush
(53,925 posts)and here we are now in doubt in any of the cases bought by the DOJ against trump will happen before the election.
bigtree
(86,008 posts)...which had already assembled more evidence at the time he was appointed than Mueller's entire Russia probe?
Smith will also take on national security investigators already working the probe into the potential mishandling of federal records taken to Mar-a-Lago after Trump left the White House.
Together, the twin investigations have already established more evidence than what Mueller started with, including from a year-long financial probe thats largely flown under the radar.
Mueller was starting virtually from scratch, whereas Jack Smith is seemingly integrating on the fly into an active, fast-moving investigation, said Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor and senior CNN legal analyst.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/11/politics/jack-smith-special-counsel-high-profile-moves-trump-criminal-investigations/index.html
kentuck
(111,110 posts)...and we are looking at present crimes, not crimes that happened in the past.
What do we do about the present crimes?
bigtree
(86,008 posts)...I don't see a prosecutable threat in that truck decal post.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)threatening violence, and incitement with false statements. Never a day goes by...
bigtree
(86,008 posts)...and the obstruction you mention isn't clear criminality, and is always subject to prosecution, and more importantly, already being managed in court by the Special Counsel.
What would be the actual legal value in DOJ bringing a prosecution for interfering with a prosecution already before a judge?
My feeling is that judges aren't so intent on enforcing their own orders, as they are focused primarily on getting a trial underway and keeping it on track. That includes allowing for challenges and appeals- within reason, and arbitrated by the court.
When that's affected, they will respond with escalating sanctions, up to jail. It's not going to be an overt fight, at least not unless Trump does something that outstrips the earlier sanctions. It's going to be a process, less than a blunt rebuke, I believe. I could be wrong. It depends on the judge.
I'm not seeing where there are Trump crimes outside of that process that aren't being addressed, but the SC investigations are still ostensibly open.
brush
(53,925 posts)he was settled in office. There was no need to a special counsel months and months later. The prosecution against the trump cabal who excited the insurrection should've been Garland's first order of business once he took office. The DOJ should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time...meaning subordinates could've prosecuted the actual Capitol rioters while Garland personally went after trump, the one most responsible for J6.
If that had happened immediately trump would've already been tried.
bigtree
(86,008 posts)...did you read that somewhere?
How would he 'already be tried' on anything significant or convincing to a jury without the efforts Garland made before he appointed the man who quickend and deepened an already 'fast-moving investigation' as described by reports?
And Garland did, indeed, prosecute rioters and riot leaders on charges eventually resulting in charges up to sedition and obstruction, at the same time he was gathering 'more evidence than Mueller had in his entire Russia probe' BEFORE he hired Jack Smith.
brush
(53,925 posts)bigtree
(86,008 posts)...basically handed Jack Smith a "fast moving investigation' with more than 20 prosecutors already assigned to it take to the finish line.
Lol, at thinking you believe Merrick Garland did the investigating himself as Attorney General.
Boomerproud
(7,971 posts)nt
kentuck
(111,110 posts)Maybe it's time for a reminder?
bigtree
(86,008 posts)...and he's doing his speaking in court.
Merrick Garland has already spoken to his department's obligation to respond to threats of violence:
Read Merrick Garland's Full Jan. 6 Speech
Updated Jan 5, 2022 at 4:19 PM
(excerpt)
In a democracy, people vote, argue, and debate often vociferously in order to achieve the policy outcomes they desire. But in a democracy, people must not employ violence or unlawful threats of violence to affect that outcome.
Citizens must not be intimidated from exercising their constitutional rights to free expression and association by such unlawful conduct. The Justice Department will continue to investigate violence and illegal threats of violence, disrupt that violence before it occurs, and hold perpetrators accountable.
We have marshaled the resources of the department to address the rising violence and criminal threats of violence against election workers, against flight crews, against school personnel, against journalists, against members of Congress, and against federal agents, prosecutors, and judges. In 2021, the department charged more defendants in criminal threat cases than in any year in at least the last five. As we do this work, we are guided by our commitment to protect civil liberties, including the First Amendment rights of all citizens.
The department has been clear that expressing a political belief or ideology, no matter how vociferously, is not a crime. We do not investigate or prosecute people because of their views. Peacefully expressing a view or ideology no matter how extreme is protected by the First Amendment. But illegally threatening to harm or kill another person is not.
There is no First Amendment right to unlawfully threaten to harm or kill someone. As Justice Scalia noted in R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, true threats of violence are outside the First Amendment because laws that punish such threats protect[] individuals from the fear of violence, from the disruption that fear engenders, and from the possibility that the threatened violence will occur.
The latter point hits particularly close to home for those of us who have investigated tragedies ranging from the Oklahoma City bombing to the January 6th attack on the Capitol.
The time to address threats is when they are made, not after the tragedy has struck. As employees of the nations largest law enforcement agency, each of us understands that we have an obligation to protect our citizens from violence and fear of violence. And we will continue to do our part to provide that protection.
But the Justice Department cannot do it alone. The responsibility to bring an end to violence and threats of violence against those who serve the public is one that all Americans share.
TwilightZone
(25,499 posts)15-second Google search:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5024516/no-person-law-country
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ag-garland-reiterates-person-trump-law-jan/story?id=87140695
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/26/garland-charge-trump-capitol-attack-jan-6-doj
"But we have heard nothing."
It's difficult to hear if one is intent on not listening.
Model35mech
(1,562 posts)They are scared out of their damned minds that he will bring about ruination if they confront him
That's how coercion and intimidation work. He's not above the law, but no one in the justice system will measure him against the high standards of the f###ing law.
gab13by13
(21,442 posts)We do not have adequate hate speech laws in this country. The threats need to be specific and actionable.
Model35mech
(1,562 posts)I know that's a conundrum but so it seems.
He's THE hope for their evangelical revolution. they believe he will tear down what exists. And they foolishly think that they will erect their impossible dream in the place of Trump's autocratic schemes.
We did this sort of misplace faith in dreams in the early 1860's. It resulted in The Lost Cause, and the destruction of southern society. it will end similarly although the damage will have a different geography
brush
(53,925 posts)I mean the MFer threatened the president with that photo of a bound and gagged man supposed to be Joe Biden. Enough is way past enough.
Igel
(35,374 posts)should be first in line.
Haven't seen a mention of them. Or of the person who actually videoed and posted the "speech". Do we know that person's motives and intent, so can we actually judge their goodness? Did they mean to say, "Hey, great!" or did they mean to say, "Let's track down this people and destroy them!"?
MOMFUDSKI
(5,711 posts)is a milquetoast.
bucolic_frolic
(43,366 posts)they don't exactly know what he will do. Surely intelligence is monitoring social media and known dangers for threats. So there is that.
Trump becomes more of a martyr in MAGA eyes if he's gagged. Do you want a martyr, or do you want deranged? He is destroying his own public image into a raging lunatic. They may know more about his health conditions than most of us can observe.
republianmushroom
(13,749 posts)The above statement is true, Garland has said this or something similar.
But these laws are just enforced differently, if your name is trump, which Garland hasn't
said but has shown. IMO
38 months and counting
usonian
(9,916 posts)So do you see the brilliant strategy here?
Nickel and dime the Don until he can't afford any lawyers!
Why, in 50 years, he'll be broke.
Right.
brush
(53,925 posts)for threatening blood baths, judges, court personnel, a judge's daughter, and now the President.
Enough is enought, throw the orange turd in jail.
usonian
(9,916 posts)CONTROLLED BY KIDS!!!
LOOK AT THE MAN JUMP!!
I'd l ike to see a judge show some cojones and smack down the world's second most defiant criminal.
brush
(53,925 posts)surfered
(550 posts)Magoo48
(4,721 posts)under threat personally or professionally, secretly fascist, who the fuck knows.
I do know there is a lot of silence from legions of powerful people who are behaving like teenage wallflowers at the big dance.
There are thousands of we peons who stand up in our social circles regularly and fight for and defend democracy and freedom. I wish our timid timid leaders would catch a fuckin clue.
Kid Berwyn
(14,992 posts)Make their voices heard -- not just to the orange traitor or to We the People, but by SCOTUS.
The "conservative" justices need to know their shenanigans on behalf of Trumputin won't wash.
ETA: It isn't Garland or Wray's job to opine in public on what they're investigating. Hope they are making their voices heard in their appropriate offices about what needs be done to keep Putin's puppet's gob shut.
Hikerchick57
(118 posts)I would really like to see Gen. Milley speak up, he saved the nation a few times. Hes a private citizen now isnt he?
gibraltar72
(7,513 posts)Trueblue Texan
(2,447 posts)Mr. Evil
(2,856 posts)And republicans.