No longer defending Israel

[angrychair]

This war is no longer about Hamas but misplaced revenge against the people of Gaza.
I am now fully in the camp that Israel's primary goal at this point is genocide of the Palestinian people.
There is no other interpretation.

The attack on World Central Kitchen vehicles was a means to an end to halt/slow food aid to Gaza. I believe it is fully their intention to stave the Palestinian people to death.

I am fully in the camp demanding a complete halt to all aid and assistance to Israel of any kind. I also feel the the US should expel all but the Israeli ambassador to the US.
The Israeli commander of that attack should be sanctioned and deemed persona non grata.

Biden must up the pressure on Israel or risk real trouble going into the general election.
I will still vote for him but I'll be honest this is pretty awful and not a good look for Democrats.

I stand with Chef Andrés and I believe him

[Scrivener7]

1. I'm with you.

[TomDaisy]

203. me too

[TexasDem69]

2. Luckily, President Biden doesn't agree

And I don’t think you understand the meaning of the term “genocide.”

Hamas attacked Israel. Hamas didn’t attack military installations but intentionally targeted civilians.

- Reports indicate about 1,200 civilians were killed by Hamas on 10/7. Of course, many of those were citizens of other countries, like the U.S.
- 364 civilians were killed at a concert. Gunned down while trying to hide in trees, cars or wherever they thought the terrorists might not find them. At least 40 others at the concert were taken hostage. Many women were raped. Shani Louk, a young woman attending the concert, was kidnapped, raped and murdered by Hamas, then her body was thrown in the back of a truck and paraded around Gaza to the cheers of its citizens, some of whom abused her corpse. There are many similar stories. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/the-story-of-11-families-who-were-victims-of-hamas.html
- Many Israeli civilians were butchered in their homes with bullets, fire or knives. This story discusses a family of 5, who had moved to Israel from Boston, found dead in their beds. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-attacks-funerals-76ddd26c80c6c4662987c0dd708d6707
- Hamas’ cowards raped and sexually mutilated 100s of women. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel
- Hamas still holds at least 200 hostages it kidnapped on 10/7, some of whom are infants. Numerous reports confirm that Hamas routinely rapes the female hostages. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2024/03/31/hamas-hostage-crisis-amid-war-gaza/73131624007/

After all this occurred, Israel invaded Gaza in an attempt to eliminate Hamas so that it could not kidnap, murder and rape Israeli civilians in the future. Like all cowards, Hamas didn’t want to face justice, so it hid in Gaza’s homes, hospitals and schools. During this conflict, many civilians undoubtedly have died. And others were killed while trying to assist the civilians caught in the crossfire. But let’s be clear—Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians. It isn’t attacking concerts, or raping women and parading their bodies in trucks, or going into homes and targeting families at dinner or in their beds.

Hamas’ stated goal is the elimination of every Jew in the Middle East. That is genocide. The Holocaust was genocide. Rwanda was genocide. The Khmer Rouge committed genocide. Israel is waging war against a terrorist organization.

[Stinky The Clown]

5. The quibbling over the word "genocide" reminds me of arguing about what type of gun was . . . .

. . . . used by a mass murderer instead dealing with the issue at hand - the gun. Whether automatic, semi automatic, hunting, assault, or whateverthefuck, it just killed a lot of people.

Similarly, arguing about the term "genocide" allows the talk to go past the real issue - dead people.

[TexasDem69]

8. The word "genocide" has meaning

And what is happening in Gaza isn’t that. So the answer is to stop misusing the word.

I wonder if some of the disagreement on DU isn’t the result of immediate access to news. What’s happening in Gaza is simply war, not genocide or ethnic cleansing. Civilian deaths happen in every war, but now you can read about them every day, and you can even read the disinformation published by Hamas in real time. The U.S. public didn’t learn about My Lai until over a year after it happened.

[LuvLoogie]

20. Ethnic cleansing, then.

It's all that.

[Beastly Boy]

70. Just as random and just as inapplicable.

How 'bout "drinking the blood of Christian children"? Oldie but goodie, no? And just as accurate.

[obamanut2012]

113. It is literal, textbook ethnic cleansing

Saying it isn't is really some kind of weird flex.

[Beastly Boy]

133. Whose textbook?

Who gets to define ethnic cleansing these days?

I go by the definition that was accepted by the UN Secretary General in 1993.

..."ethnic cleansing" means rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area."

https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n93/083/51/img/n9308351.pdf?token=mmurLA1HtCbnahUFal&fe=true (p.16)

What is the definition from your textbook?

[obamanut2012]

151. Oh stop. you always do this, and you know exactly what I mean

It is textbook ethnic cleansing, as per literal textbooks and per THE LITERAL GLOBAL LAWS OF WAR. And, it is also the literal definition of ethnic cleansing.

You still trying to argue this away by these kind of debate tactics and HAMAS HAMAS HAMAS is no longer working. Israel and the IDF are breaking intrenational law.

[BuddhaGirl]

169. The rationalizing is appalling, no?

[jimfields33]

183. Everyone forgets the 1940's and what Israeli population went through.

They’ve always been unfairly treated.

[OrangeJoe]

186. Learned their lesson too well

Historically Jews have been discriminated against, they've suffered pogroms, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Unfortunately the lesson many took from that is not understanding and tolerance, but violence and might against anyone who fails to completely submit to their rule.

[yagotme]

261. Is this your take on the current conflict?

but violence and might against anyone who fails to completely submit to their rule.

If I recall, Israel suffered a surprise attack from Hamas, last October, and id currently responding to that attack.

[agalisgv]

223. I have not forgotten

It does not make starving innocent children and killing aid workers justifiable.

[Beastly Boy]

198. You want me to stop asking you where you get your stuff so you can keep referring to

the the non-existent made up stuff?

That removes all fairness from the debate, doesn't it?

Of course I will not stop asking you for references. That's how people can tell the difference between real stuff and made up stuff.tell You keep telling me there is a literal textbook and literal global laws of war. If you have something literal to refer to, why do I have to stop asking you to refer to something literal?

I gave you something very literal. In fact, I gave you the definition of ethnic cleansing that is universally used in textbooks and in administering laws of war. Literally. Do you see anything in that definition that resembles your idea of ethnic cleansing whose origins you refuse to identify? If not, you have no standing to continue with your nonsense.

And sure, it is my fault that I know WTF I am talking about and you evidently don't.

[BigmanPigman]

23. My Lai is not an equivalent

Apples and oranges. I have studied My Lai and that was nothing like you are describing. I wrote a paper and My Lai was part of the research. False equivalent.

[quakerboy]

24. gen·o·cide /ˈjenəˌsīd/

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun

noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. You do you, I'll do imprecise me

To be honest, couldn't care any less what it's called. I know what I'm seeing and I know what I'm thinking.

I also wonder why the use of the word bothers some people that causes them to post the same admonishment over and over.

[murielm99]

60. Because the word is being

used for propaganda purposes. Everyone knows that the Jews suffered a genocide in Europe during WWII. Hateful, anti-semitic people have always tried to deny that genocide. This is just another way to try to take away the rightful fact of genocide against the Jews. Palestinians who coopt the term for themselves hope to win sympathy and turn the tables, turn people against Israel and Jewish people. I am not any more impressed by this propaganda than I am by the "From the river to the sea" sentiment.

Gaza's people are war casualties, not victims of genocide. Hamas killed innocent Israelis, and the result was a war against Hamas in Gaza.

[betsuni]

66. +1

[Sky Jewels]

80. If Israel doesn't want Palestine to garner the world's sympathy

maybe it should stop brutally slaughtering and starving tens of thousands of innocents.

[Lucky Luciano]

148. If they supported the attacks on Israel, but didn't directly participate, they are still guilty.

[Sky Jewels]

154. Oh, so the thousands of children and teens that Israel has maimed slaughtered and starved are guilty?

The dehumanization of Palestinians and the discounting of their right to live that I routinely see on DU, like your comment, is beyond disgusting.

[OrangeJoe]

188. Be careful what you wish for

So any Israeli who "supported the attacks on (Gaza), but didn't directly participate, they are still guilty"? Something tells me you aren't going to feel that way when the next car bomb explodes in Tel Aviv.

[whathehell]

225. ..even the children?

Along with women, they do comprise two thirds of the IDF victims.

[Lucky Luciano]

234. Not the children. War is hell.

[whathehell]

235. Massacres are worse..

as well as being in violation of the Geneva Comvention.

[yagotme]

262. I think we need to seek the definition of "children" as Hamas sees it.

When young children are taught hate against a people, and are trained to use a gun early on, to fight/kill those same people, are they not guilty if they participate?

[whathehell]

313. I can't imagine why one would 'need' to do that,

but if you're asking me if children brainwashed by adults are "guilty" for doing what adults brainwashed them to do, the answer is an absolute NO.

[yagotme]

318. I'm sure there are some trial courts here in the US that would disagree with you, nt

[whathehell]

320. Lol..I'm not at all sure of that,

and I doubt you are either.

[yagotme]

321. I'm sure "children" can be tried as an adult.

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/juvenile-tried-as-an-adult.html

Illinois: Illinois defines any individual who is under the age of 17 as a minor child. However, if a juvenile is a repeat offender or if they committed a serious crime, then they can be tried as an adult as early as the age of 13. Minors between the ages of 15 and 17 can be statutorily excluded and tried as an adult if they commit violent crimes, such as first-degree murder, armed robbery, or rape.

So, what's YOUR definition of a "child", so we can do an apples/apples study?

[whathehell]

322. In this country..

not necessarily in others. In any case, the circumstance of being a child raised by terrorists changes things considerably. Have a nice one.

[Sky Jewels]

89. The Israeli government is NOT synonymous with "the Jewish people"

and you know that. Conflating the two things and insisting any criticism of Netanyahu’s brutal ethnic cleansing is “anti-Semitic” is highly disingenuous and will not stop people from speaking out against the Israeli government’s depraved actions.

[murielm99]

90. Don't you dare say that I

conflated the two things, the Israeli government and the Jewish people? I have separated them in my posts. How dare you say that that I am insisting on anything about Netanyahu's "brutal ethnic cleansing?" WTF are you talking about? You do not get to put words in my mouth!

[obamanut2012]

114. Oh, that is what you said

The poster didn't put words into your mouth.

[murielm99]

142. I separated the two.

But go ahead. Pile on.

[Oopsie Daisy]

112. You are correct, as usual.

I look forward to reading your thoughtful and clear responses here on this website.

[Voltaire2]

123. Apparently your argument is that the word

‘genocide’ is limited to the attempt by the German government during WW2 to eliminate all the Jewish people in Europe.

The term that uniquely describes that horror is ‘the holocaust’.

There is an international treaty implemented in 1948 that defines the war crime of genocide. What Israel is doing in Gaza qualifies.

[AnrothElf]

170. Thank you. By (incorrectly) using the loaded term "genocide", the interlocutor signals that ...

No good faith discussion will be possible.

It's a bumper-sticker slogan intended to stir the pot... nothing more. By using the term incorrectly, over and over and over and over and over and defending the incorrect use of the term again and again and again, the interlocutor is attempting to "win" the debate by making their debate opponents into absolute monsters who support "genocide" and bathe in the blood of children.

It becomes impossible to have a serious discussion with them.

And that... is the point.

[Voltaire2]

171. There is no evidence that Israelis are bathing

in the blood of children, that is ridiculous. However their military occupation of Gaza appears to be violating international treaties against genocide.

[murielm99]

174. Thank you.

Well stated!

[betsuni]

248. +1

[TeamProg]

197. A one-sided war such as this sure looks a lot like genocide. No Palestinians were firing back at the IDF when they were

mowed down at the food drop off, right? Not like in a real war where soldiers fire back.

[murielm99]

205. A real war?

I suppose you have your own definition of that, too, just like you have for genocide.

In a real war, do real soldiers massacre people at music festivals? Do they take hostages and hide behind (or underneath) civilian hospitals?

You don't get your own definitions for any of these things.

[TeamProg]

207. THIS IS NOT A "WAR" - IT IS A MASSACRE! The casualty count is far, far too unbalanced to call this a "war". See:::

As of 5 March 2024, 30,228 Palestinian and 1,410 Israeli have been reported as killed, including 94 journalists (89 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 136 UNRWA aid workers.

[murielm99]

209. I am not going to read any more of your changing explanations

for your outrage. No one is happy about what is happening in Gaza. Goodbye.

[TeamProg]

210. Hmmm, you are mistaken that I care about what you think of my posts.

[whathehell]

231. The poster didn't give their own definition..

Last edited Thu Apr 4, 2024, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)

They gave the definition given by the 1948 international treaty.

The October 7th attack was a monstrous act of terror, a crime against humanity whose perpetrators should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law...That said, It doesn't justify the mass slaughter of thousands of innocent Palestinian men, women and children.

[Butterflylady]

168. I agree.

We know what has happened because some here told us over, and over, and over again. I can understand why but it has gone over the top.

My sympathy goes to the families of the aide workers that died.

Not much has been said about them.

[TheCynic56]

125. Genocide is Genocide

The UN says Israel is committing Genocide!

It is what it is whether you agree or not!

Peace✌🏼

[lapucelle]

305. The UN never said that Israel is committing genocide

and the ICJ denied SA's demand for Israel's immediate withdrawal from Gaza based on its "genocide" claim, not once, but twice.

Welcome to DU. I read profiles.

[Lonestarblue]

135. Read the UN definition of genocide. It describes Israel's actions.

[lapucelle]

308. No it doesn't. That's why the ICJ denied SA's demands for an immediate cessation

and withdrawal from Gaza not once, not twice, but three times (January 29, February 16, March 28), and why the White House characterized the suit as "meritless, counterproductive, and without any basis in fact whatsoever".

Elements of the crime

The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements

A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such";

and [a] physical element [...].

The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example).

This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml


========================================

Link to tweet

[JustAnotherGen]

311. The same UN that determined in 2005

That Sudan was not a genocide:

https://reliefweb.int/report/sudan/sudan-un-has-ruled-out-genocide-darfur

Then in November of 2023 posted this:
Sudan: UNHCR warns Darfur atrocities of 20 years ago may reoccur

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143447

“Twenty years ago, the world was shocked by the terrible atrocities and human rights violations in Darfur. We fear a similar dynamic might be developing,” said UN High Commissioner for Refugees, Filippo Grandi.

“An immediate end to the fighting and unconditional respect for the civilian population by all parties are crucial to avoid another catastrophe,” he added.

20 years ago - the UN was not shocked- or they would have rung the alarm that the Janjaweed were indeed engaged in a Genocide.

They don't get jack shit right.

[mopinko]

141. the bombing might not b, but

inducing a famine sure is. i’m at the same point. i staunchly support israel’s right to exist. but they r setting themselves outside the limits of civilized ppl.

[markpkessinger]

167. World Central Kitchen was in touch with the Israeli government . . .

. . . concerning its whereabouts and activities. Its trucks were clearly marked, on TOP. What's more, several WCK workers reported being fired upon by an Israeli sniper a few days before.

Israel had a responsibility to make sure the information concerning WCK's whereabouts and activities was passed down the chain of command. If it wasn't that's on Israel.

There is no excuse for the paltry amount of aid being permitted into Gaza. Israel is quite deliberately starving an entire population. Thus it becomes increasingly difficult to just brush this incident aside as part of the "fog of war." It has long been a goal of Netanyahu's Likud Party to displace as many Palestinians as they can. Previously, they had been doing it with illegal settlements; now, they are doing it by killing them outright.

[whathehell]

216. Okay, how about mass murder?

It's not "simply war" when one side is VASTLY outgunned with 2/3 of their casualties being children and women.

[yagotme]

263. Perhaps Hamas should have taken this into account BEFORE attacking Israel...

Or, perhaps they did, and didn't care. From prior reports of Hamas' actions and deeds, the latter seems more in tune with reality.

[Basic LA]

50. Great analogy.

[Goddessartist]

134. Thank you.

We are witnessing genocide, and some are arguing about the definition of the term. They are on the wrong side of humanity, and show us who they really are.

They need to believe what they see, not what the IDF tells them.

[TheRealNorth]

180. If the ICJ ruled tomorrow it was a genocide....

The same people defending Israel would be wagging their fingers that the ICJ is not legitimate/ has no real power etc.

Most have already said as much.

[TomDaisy]

204. exactly. how many children are going to be smashed between floors of collapsed buildings

before enough is enough.

[angrychair]

6. They are starving Gaza to death

They have now, repeatedly, attacked food assistance vehicles, each time claiming it was an "accident".
They have created conditions that have forced over a million people into an area only meant to support a fraction of that number, don't allow escape and destroy all infrastructure into that area, forcing hundreds of thousands of people to starve to death or die of disease from unsanitary conditions.
Here is the rub, if the intention is to rescue hostages but the hostages are dying or already dead of starvation too since they are in the same boat as everyone else in Gaza.

[TexasDem69]

11. WAR!!

How do you propose Israel attack and defeat Hamas

[angrychair]

16. Money

And other assistance is often a strong motivator. Especially so when people already have so little.

[wnylib]

63. Your suggestion would probably help

to get hostages back, although Hamas would also demand the release of their terrorists being held by Israel.

Your solution would not accomplish the Israeli goal of eliminating Hamas. It would give Hamas more money and released terrorists for the next round of Hamas attacks on Israel.

Imagine after 9/11 if Bin Laden had demanded money and the release of past convicted terrorists as a condition for not attacking the US again. Would the US government and people have supported that as a solution to ending terrorism against Americans?

[angrychair]

76. Wasn't talking about given money to Hamas

Why would you give money to terrorists?!? That is not at all what I wrote. You give the money to Palestinians. For information. Eventually you will start to figure out where they are being kept and the conditions they are under.
You then conduct specific, targeted raids to get back as many hostages as you can and completely cripple Hamas operations in Gaza.

It's child like naive to believe you can "destroy Hamas". blowing people up does not forge peace, only conflict. The war with Japan or Germany or Italy did not end with a peace agreement, it ended with international aid to rebuild their respective nations and giving their people an opportunity to rebuild their lives and their country. That how you create a real and lasting peace.

[wnylib]

166. Yes, the Marshall Plan was an excellent program

for rebuilding nations AFTER the war ended. During the war, didn't the combatants bomb the hell out of each other? London blitz, Berlin blitz, Nagasaki, Hiroshima.

I misunderstood your suggestion of using money. I did not realize that you meant to use it as a bribe to civilians. I'm glad to see that someone is suggesting alternative tactics to massive bombing and cutting off aid. I, too, have wished to see more specifically targeted efforts by Israel, using Intel agencies and special operations.

I see what Israel's military strategy is and why they are using it. I want to see an alternative, too. Israel's bombing is intended to destroy Hamas networks and tunnels to force them out into the open with no place to hide now or in the future, making it impossible for Hamas to regroup. Israel does not want to sacrifice its limited supply of military and Intel personnel by going into the tunnels to search and fight where they would be wiped out with one blast by Hamas.

I think that Israel would not trust info gained through bribes and would be suspicious of being set up.

This is not a war between uniformed armies on both sides. It is an urban guerrilla war fought by terrorists on one side who are embedded in the civilian population. Those guerrilla fighters do hijack food and medical aid for themselves. Israel is convinced that they can limit the aid reaching the fighters, but that tactic also limits aid to civilians, causing starvation and famine. The Israeli policy of monitoring aid also results in trigger happy soldiers executing people who deliver aid. It is harming innocents and backfiring on Israel in lost international support.

Hamas does not and never will negotiate in good faith. They operate for themselves and their own power, not on behalf of the Palestinian people. They have rejected ceasefire negotiatiations as much as Israel has.

Add Israeli politics into the mix in this war. Netanyahu faces criminal charges in Israel that go back to before the 10/7 attacks. He failed to protect Israel from those attacks. He is coming on strong as a ruthless hawk to save his own political neck.

One possible angle that is being considered in negotiations by the US and nations in the region is to strengthen the Palestinian Authority as an alternative representative of Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank.

[obamanut2012]

116. Wow the poster said nothing of the sort

[3Hotdogs]

29. Dunno. But I don't want my tax money going to Israel to allow it to continue.

[dflprincess]

39. Pretty sure targeting relief workers

Is not going to defeat Hamas.

[KPN]

64. Not by wiping out every Palestinian in Gaza,

not to mention those who try to provide humanitarian aid to innocent Palestinian’s in Gaza.

[Voltaire2]

94. There are multiple international treaties that

regulate what is permitted and what is forbidden in armed conflicts and occupations.

[obamanut2012]

117. Posters keep glossing over that

Like we are stupid. "It's war, civilians die in wars!@@!" My God. They do, which is why we have these international laws.

Thanks for mentioning that

[obamanut2012]

115. You are still excusing the slaughter

You refuse to accept the reality of what Bibi and the idf are doing.

[markpkessinger]

173. Starvation as a tactic of war is a war crime under the Rome Statute of the ICC

The Rome Statute specifically defines the deliberate use of starvation as a war crime at Article 8.2(b)(xxv):

Article 8 - War Crimes

[ . . . .]

2. For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:

[ . . . . ]

(b) Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:

[ . . . . ]

(xxv) Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;

[ . . . . ]

Source: United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

[Mossfern]

236. Apparently there are some here

who think that Israel should cease to attack Hamas and retreat from Gaza leaving the hostages behind. My understanding is that Israel is determined that attacks such as the on on 10/7 never happens again.

What I don't understand is why there is no outcry against Hamas and demand that they surrender and return the hostages. There is no Palestinian contrition and demonstrations against Israel began before Israel even responded.

Yes, I understand that there are those here who acknowledge and condemn the events of 10/7, but then offer no alternative solution to Israel's response.

[Beastly Boy]

72. List those repeated attacks.

Citing sources other than Hamas health ministry would be helpful.

[OrangeJoe]

190. Dead journalists

Since Israel has managed to kill almost 100 journalists in Gaza (only 69 were killed in all of WWII) getting accurate news is a bit of a problem. Of course that is exactly the strategy.

[Beastly Boy]

201. Not only are you not citing sources, you are not even referring to the "they"

who, according to the post I replied to, are "starving Gaza to death".

Other than the Hamas government, whose numbers are you basing your claims on?

[OrangeJoe]

237. Citation

Here you go. https://cpj.org/2024/04/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/

[Beastly Boy]

244. Thank you. This is what I was looking for.

Now I can address the subject you raised, even though it is not related to my previous post.

Your source appears to be legit, and they identify 95 journalists killed since October 7.

Two of them were Israeli and five Lebanese. It is reasonable to assume that these journalists were not targeted by IDF in the Gaza operations.

I went through the list of names your source provided, and it identified at least 28 of them as being Hamas affiliated. Additionally, two of them were identified by your source as being affiliated with Palestinian Islamic Jihad, one more as affiliated with the Lebanese Hezbollah, one more as being affiliated with Iranian Al Quds, and one was the grandson of Ismail Haniyeh, the chairman of Hamas' Politbureau.

I didn't take the trouble of going through this list to identify the number of journalists whose deaths were attributable to the IDF actions in Gaza, but the list does not include mentions of Israeli airstrikes or fire in a significant number of cases, while mentioning them in others. It is reasonable to assume that, since your source calls their investigations "preliminary", it is too early to give Israel all the credit for their deaths.

Additionally, all of the journalists who were in Gaza were warned by IDF that "The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) ... could not guarantee the safety of their journalists operating in the Gaza Strip", as per your source. They all accepted this risk voluntarily.

So of the 95 journalists killed, only 48 were Palestinians or other Arabs unaffiliated with any terrorist organization or pro-Iranian militants, and it is still unknown how many of them were killed by Israel and how many were not.

You can now see how your statement, "Since Israel has managed to kill almost 100 journalists in Gaza", falls apart upon closer examination. It is, quite literally and mathematically accurate, to call it halfass bogus, based on your source which appears to be a legitimate one.

This is why I keep asking for sources.

[OrangeJoe]

292. Journalists are journalists

Trying to delegitimize the deaths of journalists just because who they work for is not really valid. You might want to look more carefully at the reasons why the IDF is so intent on restricting news coverage in Gaza. Declaring the entire area a free fire zone is certainly one way to cut down on outside sources reporting what is going on. This is why you find very few Western journalists there and instead see dedicated people who are associated with the people suffering from the war.

I also wouldn't assume the Israeli or Lebanese weren't targeted. Here's an example of just that. https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-LEBANON/JOURNALIST/akveabxrzvr/

[Beastly Boy]

296. Sorry, there is a hell of a difference between propagandists and journalists.

They are no more journalists than Tokyo Rose or Alex Jones or James O'Keefe. How many North Koreans would you consider legitimate journalists? Or Russians working for the Kremlin news agency? They delegitimized themselves precisely by the virtue of their affiliation with illegitimate employers they worked for. And it has to do with THEIR choice, which was not subject to IDF restrictions.

So why pretend that the 48 insiders listed in your source who, by choice, generated propaganda for terrorist groups while employed by these same terrorist groups whose often articulated war strategy was to generate and spread propaganda as a weapon of war, are legitimate journalists? Why pretend that who they work for doesn't matter? Why pretend that them delegitimizing their status is equivalent to me delegitimizing their deaths?

Because unless you pretend, your premise of "Since Israel has managed to kill almost 100 journalists in Gaza getting accurate news is a bit of a problem" comes apart. And then, their illegitimacy as journalists "just because who they work for" becomes obvious. And then your challenge to me "to look more carefully at the reasons why the IDF is so intent on restricting news coverage in Gaza" becomes contrived. And lumping those propagandist insiders chosen for their biases with "outside sources reporting what is going on" becomes laughable. And conflating the employees of Hamas, the terrorist group that started the war in the first place and who claimed the suffering of Gazan civilians to be their objective with "the people suffering from the war" becomes obscene. And pretending that IDF declaring a war zone in a war zone just so they could restrict the news coverage in a war zone and not because there was fighting going on in the war zone, becomes conspicuously resembling a conspiracy theory.

And then, unless you pretend, the whole contraption of an argument you are proposing falls down to the ground.

[dchill]

12. Israel is waging war against...

... whomever is in the way when they use the weapons we sent them. That's not genocide - it's wholesale slaughter.

[Bayard]

18. How many bodies will be enough?

I think the number of dead in Gaza is now about 35,000. Is that proportional to 1,200 Israelis? I just read in this thread that most Gazans are trying to survive on 245 calories a day:
https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18834364

There have been atrocities on both sides, I agree. There are enough tortures/rapes/murders to go around. I suspect that the children of Gaza who survive will become Israel's worst nightmare when they reach adulthood, though.

[SunSeeker]

73. The children of the holocaust did not hate Germans for the rest of their lives.

Nor did surviving German children hate Americans for the rest of their lives. Education is key. If these Gaza kids are educated by the same folks who brought us the October 7 atrocity, then for sure these kids will continue to hate. Once Hamas is eliminated, there needs to be a Marshall Plan for rebuilding Gaza, and a modern, fact based education system set up for the children of Gaza.

[BigMin28]

107. They will rebuild Gaza

But there won't be any Palestinians there anymore. Bibi has plans for Gaza, and it doesn't include Palestinians.

[jaxexpat]

127. You're right. Gaza could be an opportunity to rethink the whole "middle east vs western culture" conundrum.

I thought that sort of stuff was what the UN was made for, rebuilding the world's politics based on trust and self-interest. Everything's positive and possible until the aspirations and fears of wealth vs poverty come into play.

Is Netanyahu the Levant's Milosevich? What does the Brussels court have to say about this mess?

[OrangeJoe]

191. Not true

Golda Meir famously wouldn't ride in German made automobiles. But in that case I can't really blame her. The tragedy is the treatment of the Palestinians by the descendents of the Holocaust victims.

[SunSeeker]

246. Wrong. Golda Meir did not hate Germans. She advocated for reconciliation.

Israeli Foreign Minister Golda Meir said Friday Israel will never forget the Nazi World War II murder of six million Jews but does not want to hold an entire generation of Germans responsible.

"The Jews must be careful not to fall into the crime of racism. The German people must not be despised just because they are Germans," Mrs. Meir told an audience of some 250 members and guests at the Foreign Correspondents' Club of Japan here.

https://www.stripes.com/migration/we-can-t-blame-all-the-germans-mrs-meir-says-1.86934?=/&subcategory=478%7CVeterans

[OrangeJoe]

290. You may be right

But then you really have to respect her words about hate. When I visited Israel & the West Bank I heard a lot of hate from many Israelis who clearly didn't heed her words.

[cab67]

230. I've met plenty of elderly Germans who still held a grudge.

[Bettie]

138. I don't think Netanyahu's plan involves

any Palestinians surviving.

[AllyCat]

22. 1200 people, so kill 30k and starve the rest of them to death?

BiBi is a cold-blooded killer. He needs to be hauled in front of the ICC. Israel needs safety from the Middle East. Hamas needs to be rooted out and removed.

Attacking unarmed civilians is beyond the pale no matter who does it.

[TBF]

28. "Attacking unarmed civilians is beyond the pale no matter who does it."

Unless Hamas does it?

I am not in favor of Netanyahu's approach (or really anything about his crazy right-wing government), but he is retaliating after a terrorist organization attacked his people. Are leaders of other countries held to the same standard?

[AllyCat]

105. No. Even if Hamas does it. If you reread my post,

You’ll see I call them out as well.

[TBF]

136. He is trying to "root them out" - but I will agree with you that his methods do leave something

to be desired. I'm also having a real problem with the ultra-orthodox being exempted from service during wartime.

Israel itself has my heart, but their current government does not.

[OrangeJoe]

192. Strawman

No one is defending Hamas. Just stop with the strawman arguments.

[sarisataka]

199. If only that was true... nt

[TBF]

215. Actually a lot of folks are not only defending Hamas -

but participating in the quite elaborate PR effort of propping them up as freedom fighters.

They are terrorists who not only killed 1200 innocent folks in & near a music festival, but also took hostages. Why are they not releasing the hostages? That is the way to bring this war to a quick end.

[OrangeJoe]

238. Rephrase

No one on this site has been defending Hamas.

[JustAnotherGen]

314. Hamas is the Political Leadership

In Gaza. What one permits, one promotes.

[erodriguez]

48. DU is missing a downvote button.

[EarnestPutz]

62. I've thought that before and have come to think that that's probably a good thing. It seems to me that......

…….we do pretty well arguing both sides of an issue as it is and “recing” someone’s comment does more than just agree with their sentiments, but acknowledges a well written or well reasoned position. It also keeps things a little more civil.

[Trueblue Texan]

118. Then Israel should not target aid workers.

I don't think anyone here has any sympathy for Hamas and I know we are all sober enough, critically thinking individuals who understand the inevitability of collateral damage of war. But Israel has gone far, far beyond that. They are starving and murdering the Palestinian people and calling it an attack on Hamas. This is more than collateral damage. If you think this is all about killing Hamas and you know they hide among the populace, then clearly you see, extermination of all in Gaza is part of Netanyahu's plan. And that is how it is being justified. No matter what title you give it, it has the same effect as genocide. I don't understand all the subtleties of US strategic need for Israel as an ally. But we need to do something different, because what we're doing now isn't working and we are going to be blamed for it. Biden is going to be blamed for it.

[whathehell]

228. I've seen zero sympathy for Hamas on this board..

It's a strawman argument that gets lamer by the day.

[PatrickforB]

145. I hear you. I do. Semantics aside, there is an important point to make here.

Bibi is trying to stay in power, and he is in real danger of losing it if there is a new election. It is in his best interest to keep the war going, not have a ceasefire and grind on.

Here's the real question you seem to be overlooking:

Is every Palestinian who has died so far in Gaza a member of Hamas, or is Hamas a subset of all Palestinians?

I think with over 30,000 dead Palestinians, attacks on food trucks and aid convoys, thousands on the verge of starvation, and drinking dirty water, we can safely say that while some Hamas terrorists have in fact been killed, a whole bunch of innocent people have also died.

I won't use the word genocide since you seem to object, but we did the same thing in Vietnam. That was a war of attrition, and we killed thousands and thousands of people in both North and South Vietnam, and some of our snake and nape attacks on villages minted a whole bunch of new Cong.

We can also cite our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan under W. I always believed W, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice were war criminals because of that.

And you know what? Netanyahu is a war criminal as well. He is. We really need to rethink just giving Israel weapons without insisting on a ceasefire so these innocent children who are dying because of the acts of a few Hamas terrorists. We must wonder why, why, why we still seem to think the 'war on terror' can ever be won on the battlefield.

The real truth is the Palestinians in Gaza have been economically oppressed by Israel for decades. They don't always have electric power. Even before October 7, Israel would ration their electricity to four hours a day. They faced checkpoints everywhere and were not free to travel. They sometimes had their water turned off.

So, if you are able to put yourself in the moccasins of some Palestinian kids as you seem to be for the Israeli victims of the Hamas terrorism, think about how you would feel if the IDF had killed your family in this war of attrition. Would you become a terrorist when you grew up after seeing your parents killed?

In my day job, I wage peace against economic violence. Things like joblessness, homelessness, poverty and lack. Not having enough to live is economic violence. If we can acheive peace here, get rid of Bibi and his right-wing Likud party, and ensure that Gaza is rebuilt, the people there have jobs, economic opportunity, decent housing, good education, and hope for the future, terrorist acts will be less likely to happen in the future.

What is happening now is hurting Isreal, not helping. And children are dying. What if they were our children? And that deal with Chef Andres? There is no excuse. Someone in the IDF was trigger happy there. Attacking supply convoys? This really IS a humanitarian crisis, and Netanyahu's actions are making it harder for everyone to be supportive of Israel.

I am sorry to disagree, but we should no longer send weapons to Israel without some serious strings to prevent women and children, sick people and innocent civilians in general from starving, being homeless, not having potable water, being unsafe with no hope for any kind of future.

Again, Hamas is only a small subset of all the people who have died so far.

[appmanga]

159. With all respect...

But let’s be clear—Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians.

This is not true. We can believe you, or our lying eyes.

Hamas’ stated goal is the elimination of every Jew in the Middle East.

The Netanyahu government appears to be acting in kind. The policy of the current government appears to be the only good Palestinian is a dead one, as if everyone in Gaza is Hamas. And that's the issue. When a government official puts air quotes around Palestinian civilians being innocent, that seems like the mindset.

And lately, in this "war", Israel is killing more of its soldiers than Hamas. I'd expect a lot more shooting back from the enemy in a war.

We know what Hamas has done. Find them, kill them, no argument. But starving everyday civilians and indiscriminately killing aid workers is one hell of a way to get those few thousand Hamas members.

[OrangeJoe]

185. Israeli's goal

Israel has goals similar to Hamas. Eliminate or expel every one who is not in your tribe. The difference is that we are supplying the death machines to Israel.

[yagotme]

264. So, the work permits Israel allowed Palestinians to enter Israel are fake news?

First I've heard of this...

[OrangeJoe]

289. See for yourself

Clearly Israel dribbles out a few work permits because it is in their best interest to have some menial jobs done by Palestinians. This system also gets them intelligence from collaborators that they can blackmail. But the thing you need to do is go in person and watch the hoops people need to jump through just to travel from one village to another. I used to live in a country bordering South Africa during the bad old days of apartheid. While it was a horrific system I must say the white South Africans never treated the Africans with the hate and venom displayed by the Israelis I witnessed in Israel and the West Bank. Talk all you want. I know what I saw.

[yagotme]

291. From your post:

Eliminate or expel every one who is not in your tribe.

Next:

Clearly Israel dribbles out a few work permits because it is in their best interest

I hear goalposts being moved...

ETA:
https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-ap-top-news-israel-blockades-0bbd46d074739dbb8b4a7083f6cd63fb
Over 15,00 permits in one year. Not exactly an "elimination" technique, to allow the people you are trying to "eradicate" get a better job, and more money for their family.

[OrangeJoe]

298. From the article you cited

"The permits give Israel a form of leverage over the Palestinians who rely on them — and over Hamas. "

[yagotme]

319. And they also allow for the betterment of Gazan citizens,

those who work in Israel, and their families.

[OrangeJoe]

299. Long term goal

Just because they allow a few Palestinians to work meager jobs doesn't mean they don't want to expel them. Open your eyes and see what they've been doing to these people for the last 6 months. The whole world sees that Israel is attempting ethnic cleansing. The only reason you refuse to see it is your blind adherence to a theocracy.

[yagotme]

317. So, the population of Israel is 100% Jewish descent by now, right?

No other Arabs live there, due to them being expelled by Israel? They surely should have accomplished their "long term goal" by now, right? And, "what they have been doing to these people for the last 6 months" is called a counter attack by the military. It's when you are attacked, and then you attack back, in an effort to keep them from attacking you again. Especially since they want to ELIMINATE you from the world.

[TomSlick]

229. I hope you are mistaken.

If President Biden does not find a way to stop Netanyahu, the indiscriminate killing of civilians in Gaza will continue. The civilians killed in bombings will be the lucky ones and spared the long death by starvation.

If Netanyahu cannot be stopped, it may cost President Biden the election and cost the country the end of a democratic republic.

I hope you are mistaken.

[radius777]

271. Hamas was tacitly supported by the Israeli gov't

for many years, who faciliated their continued existence and funding, with the purpose of thwarting a two state solution and keeping Gaza subjugated. It is well documented by major news outlets like the NYT and Haaretz. Netanyahu and the Likud are the ones to blame for Hamas, not the Palestinians, who are an oppressed group with little self determination and are essentially hostages.

As for genocide - members of Netanyahu's cabinet such as Smotrich and Ben Gavir are open fascists who openly have called for 'mowing the lawn' ie reducing the population and using starvation/misery to drive resdidents off of Gaza so that it can be resettled by Jews.

[BigmanPigman]

3. Bibi really blew it this time.

People on the fence before this attack have shifted. Biden better not blow it too. This is an important issue that can't wait to be addressed. Voters will bail on Biden if he doesn't do something now, not later.

[TexasDem69]

4. I'm confident President Biden will continue to support

Our great ally Israel.

[angrychair]

9. Hopefully not

Cease all aid and assistance, sanctions and send their embassy staff back home.

If that doesn't work, bar all US-based businesses from doing business with any Israeli headquartered business.

[TexasDem69]

13. Well

That’s something I guess. I’ll continue to support President Biden, democracy in the Middle East, and Israel.

[obamanut2012]

122. It's hysterical you think Bibi is for democracy

[jimfields33]

259. He's for keeping Israel on the map which countries around it would rather they didn't exist

[MyOwnPeace]

14. 'Our great ally Israel'

continues to thumb its nose at the majority of Americans that want it all to STOP! The continuing attack/counter-attack, 'they started it/no, THEY started it' HAS TO STOP!
GIVE IT UP! Revenge NEVER resolves complicated issues - intelligent people with an intent to provide peace and equity do - and that's what we need to expect from our own government - without ANY biased influence.

JUST STOP IT!!!!!!!

[TexasDem69]

15. Trying to eliminate Hamas and prevent future

Kidnappings, rapes and murders isn’t “revenge.” Anyone with a sense of decency fully supports Israel.

[angrychair]

19. The people of Gaza

Didn't do any of those things but are 100% paying the cost for it.

So question: is there a point when so many Palestinians have died that you would agree it's gone too far?
Is that 100,000? 200,000? 500,000? How many dead is enough?

[JanMichael]

36. That is a good question. How many dead is enough?

50%? 75%? 100%?

Also would Israel think it would be enough to remove all Palestinians from Gaza? You know like cleanse them out?

[MorbidButterflyTat]

295. The many times I've seen that question asked,

I've never seen an answer.

[yagotme]

265. Who, exactly, do you think Hamas is???

The people of Gaza...Didn't do any of those things but are 100% paying the cost for it.

Hamas is the current government of Gaza. Palestinians live in Gaza. Hamas operates in Gaza. Hamas is composed of Palestinians. Your above statement is incorrect in this part.

[angrychair]

268. No, that is incorrect

Hamas was elected 18 years ago in 2006 and has not held elections since.
Second, the majority of population in Gaza is very young, with 40% being 19 or younger.
In fact the majority of Gaza's population were either not born or children themselves when Hamas took control of the country.

So your assessment is not accurate. While I'm sure there is pockets of support, especially those that have been radicalized by the treatment of Gaza by Israel. It is not the majority though.

[yagotme]

270. How is my assessment not accurate?

Hamas was elected 18 years ago in 2006 and has not held elections since.

Therefore, they are still the de-facto government of Gaza. Fail.

Second, the majority of population in Gaza is very young, with 40% being 19 or younger.

So, even though they didn't elect Hamas, they don't support them? There's video out there showing the cheering crowds after Hamas committed the Oct 7th attack. Fail.

While I'm sure there is pockets of support,

You are correct there. Seems to be several. Otherwise, the "massive non-Hamas population" would have surely overthrown them by now, right? Fail.

It would have been nice to have the answer, "Who do you think Hamas is?". As I said, it's composed of Gazan Palestinians, which goes against your post I originally replied to. Fail.

ETA: punctuation goof.

[angrychair]

275. You seem to have your mind made up

cheering crowds after Hamas committed the Oct 7th attack.

Hundreds of thousands of people were filmed cheering the election of TFG in 2016, does that mean that the whole US supports TFG? By your assessment that must be the case because we filmed people cheering.

So roughly 1% of the population of Gaza is in Hamas and therefore you contend all of Gaza are pro-Hamas terrorists
Since at least 1% of the US population are part of hate groups or anti-government militias so that obviously means the entire population are anti-government white nationalist by your logic.

You go from acknowledging that a significant portion of the population of Gaza are kids and women but then criticize them for not overthrowing their violent and militant government run by heavily armed terrorists?
Is it easy to judge people from the safety and security of a country not controlled by terrorists and a neighbor that keeps them trapped in a giant open air prison?

[yagotme]

280. As do you:

Hundreds of thousands of people were filmed cheering the election of TFG in 2016, does that mean that the whole US supports TFG? By your assessment that must be the case because we filmed people cheering.

Well, per the election results, in the neighborhood of 50%.

So roughly 1% of the population of Gaza is in Hamas and therefore you contend all of Gaza are pro-Hamas terrorists

Putting words in my mouth isn't really your forte, is it? I NEVER said "all". I inferred that a "few" seemed to be a low number, and suspect, due to the totalitarian rule, that it is a goodly amount more than what you were projecting. Possibly even approaching a majority. Because, in that type of regime, going against the government, doesn't bode well for your longevity.

Since at least 1% of the US population are part of hate groups or anti-government militias so that obviously means the entire population are anti-government white nationalist by your logic.

There you go again, speaking for me. It's not a good look for you, really. You should stop. Apples and oranges, anyway. The 1% you are referring to here, aren't in total control of our government, like Hamas is in Gaza.

You go from acknowledging that a significant portion of the population of Gaza are kids and women but then criticize them for not overthrowing their violent and militant government run by heavily armed terrorists?

You seem to be of the opinion that Hamas is a small, unelected force, completely and totally outnumbered by the Gazan population. So, if you are correct in your assumption, then I am correct in my assumption. Can't have it both ways.

Is it easy to judge people from the safety and security of a country not controlled by terrorists and a neighbor that keeps them trapped in a giant open air prison?

Yes, it's always easier to judge someone from afar. Always has been. That's why we try to look at prior actions, the government's own declarations, etc. Hamas has sworn to wipe Israel off the map. They keep trying. Therefore, Hamas is a threat to Israel. The "open air prison" (which I wish I would never hear that again) is a 3-walled enclosure, being open to the sea, and the walls were built by Israel (2), and EGYPT (1). Egypt is an Arabic country, so why would they build a wall separating Gaza from themselves? MAY-BEE, they got tired of being attacked by the idiotic terrorists who seem to always find a home in Gaza. Kinda why Israel built their wall.

[MyOwnPeace]

27. "Anyone with a sense of decency fully supports Israel."

There is NO DECENCY when you are killing thousands because of the acts of a minority. And the refusal to work for a 'peace' from an obvious position of strength is a sign of no effort to bring peace to the region.
Israel HAD the support for stopping 'kidnappings, rapes, and murders' - but then they continue to extract 'revenge.'

Of those 'survivors' - or others in the region - how many of them do you think will understand that 'sense of decency?'

[ShazzieB]

61. None of us has the right to judge which of us has "a sense of decency."

Not you, not me, not anyone! No matter how much any of us may disagree with each other, that is NOT our prerogative!

I have always supported the right of the state of Israel to exist and the right of the Jewish people to have a homeland. I still do. That does NOT mean I am required to support every single policy and action of Bibi Netanyahu and his extreme right wing government.

I have been staying out of threads like this one for the most part. They give me a headache, because I have this annoying habit of being able to see things from more than one perspective at the same time. That means I have a very hard time taking sides, and these threads always seem to be all about taking sides in a very black and white way.

I'm not going to take sides now, either, at least not in the black and white way I see a lot of people doing. I can't do that, because I just don't see things that way.

Hamas is terrible, and what they did at that concert was horrific. I understand why Israel wants to eliminate that organization completely. I am skeptical about how realistic a goal that is, but I get it. I do not, however, support every aspect of how Bibi is going about things.

In particular, I do not and cannot support deliberately targeting humanitarian aid workers who are there to try to feed starving people. I imagine some do not believe that's what happened, but all the evidence I've seen points in that direction, and I can't ignore it. If anyone here thinks that means I don't have a "sense of decency," all I can say is you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm equally entitled to reject such a pronouncement.

[Phoenix61]

111. I have lots of decency but I absolutely do not support

Netanyahu or his actions towards Gaza.
Seems I’m not the only one.
“The growing demonstrations in Israel reflect the latest poll by the Israeli Democracy Institute, which suggested that 57 percent of the Israeli public rates Netanyahu’s performance since the start of the war as “poor” or “very poor”.”
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2024/4/4/huge-protests-across-israel-are-telling-netanyahu-to-leave-will-it-happen

[obamanut2012]

124. I don't support the murder of innocent people

Including the people of Gaza.

[TheCynic56]

126. I used to support Israel

But not anymore. Netanfuckyou is making sure of that. Israel has lost their standing and should be ashamed at committing this Genocide. ✌🏼

[Nanjeanne]

144. How dare you? I don't support what Israel is doing at all. Even my Israeli family doesn't support what

Israel is doing now. So you should think again about accusing people of not having a sense of decency.

[cab67]

232. Speaking as someone with a sense of decency -

I supported Israel's actions at first, but it's become disproportionate. Efforts to eradicate groups like Hamas rarely succeed, and too many innocent people are suffering.

The time for a cease fire has come.

[yagotme]

266. I agree, it's time for ceasefire.

Now, if we could only convince Hamas to surrender, lay down their arms, stop firing missiles at Israel, release the hostages, and vow to not take up arms against Israel again, or face UN sanctions.

[cab67]

286. I'm not laying all of this on the Israeli government or the IDL.

I'm fully aware of Hamas' culpability, and it has to be destroyed. But at this point, the damage and devastation have become disproportionate.

I don't buy the argument that the Palestinians being harmed by this conflict are to blame for having voted Hamas into power, either. That election was almost 20 years ago, and the Palestinian people - more than half of whom weren't eligible to vote in 2005 - haven't had an opportunity to vote them out.

[yagotme]

287. I didn't say that you were.

I'm just saying that the fastest way to a negotiated ceasefire would be what's in my post. Hamas started this, took, and is still keeping hostages, so they bear the heaviest part of the burden to stop the madness. Israel needs to do their part, of course, but Hamas has to do certain things to make it meaningful. The "ceasefire" in effect on Oct 6 didn't mean much to Hamas, did it.

[wnylib]

87. It is not revenge. It is war to eliminate a terrorist organization

whose declared purpose for existing is to destroy Israel and control all of the former British Mandate of Palestine. Hamas is backed by Iran, among other nations, so their threat to Israel is very real.

Hamas is embedded among civilians to protect itself at the expense of its own people. Israel has made a strategic decision to go after Hamas wherever they are.

If you genuinely care about the civilians in Palestine, you can demand that Hamas stop hiding behind them like cowards and stop hoarding food and medicine for themselves.

[betsuni]

92. +1

[obamanut2012]

121. Then he will lose on November

I 100% will vote for him, but many won't bevause he is supporting a government that kills humanitarians

[LymphocyteLover]

161. are you being sarcastic?

[NH Ethylene]

242. What a great ally.

Israeli leaders' behaviors toward the Palestinians, now and in the past, has fueled the fires of anti-American hatred in the Middle East. Some say that was the impetus behind the 9/11 attacks.

[JustAnotherGen]

315. Only those

Who put others' survival above theirs.

Also - they think they are free.

Also - I can get out and get my family out . . .

I won't lift a finger to help those left behind- when I have to help my family assimilate to Italy.

There will be a genocide in this country that will make this conflict in Palestine/Israel look like child's play.

[Yavin4]

7. This is similar to our war in Iraq after 9/11

We used a terrorist attack against us to justify a war and occupation of another country. America lost a lot of respect around the world for it just like Israel is experiencing now. American politics has been completely re-shaped bc of that war. It caused the complete downfall of the Bush family political dynasty. Hillary Clinton lost two presidential campaigns in part due to her support of the war.

Israel is on a very similar path. An entire generation of young Americans don't hold the same view of Israel as older generations do, and this spells trouble for Israel going forward. Loss of American economic and diplomatic support jeopardizes its future in that region. Israel's strongest political support in America comes from establishment politicians, not the base from either party. Israel's international support is even worse.

[Bayard]

21. Good point,

And well-said.

[VicNEO]

44. Correct.

[betsuni]

99. No, Iraq had nothing to do with the terrorist attack. Completely different.

[Yavin4]

211. I said "similar to" not "exactly like". n/t

[radius777]

272. And neither did Palestinians - Hamas is an Israeli puppet gov't

as well documented by NYT and other major news outlets.

“for those of us who want to thwart a two state solution, we need to strengthen Hamas and funnel them money. It’s part of our strategy.” - Bibi Netanyahu.

[Easterncedar]

110. Right. War against terrorism

Doesn’t work. How much proof do we need?

[LeftInTX]

132. If Trump wins, it's gonna get worse. We also provide financial support on a 10 year basis. It's auto-renewed.

In 2016, the U.S. and Israeli governments signed their third 10-year Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on military aid,
covering FY2019 to FY2028. Under the terms of the MOU, the United States pledged to provide—subject to congressional
appropriation—$38 billion in military aid ($33 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants plus $5 billion in missile
defense appropriations) to Israel.

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Does Israel violate the terms? Yes. But look at the balance of congress. Look at Mike Johnson. Support or lack of support for Israel is not going to make US politics long term. It can impact the 2024 election, but this will be over and voters will focus on something else.

I don't agree with Biden sending more military aid.
But I don't have an answer either. Electing Trump is gonna make it worse. Republicans are extremely strong supporters of Israel. They never criticize Israel.

[OrangeJoe]

193. Bad and worse

Unfortunately, blind support for Israel is one issue that most Democrats and all Republicans agree on. Trump will clearly make it worse, but it's not going so well with Biden in the Oval Office. The reason is simple: Campaign contributions from AIPAC.

Look up the story of former Congressman Andy Levin. Son of the late Senator Carl Levin, rabbi, self declared Zionist, Andy had the treminity to sponsor a bill which would have restricted American dollars from funding illegal settlements on the West Bank. Boom! AIPAC primaried him for stepping out of line and that was it. Believe me the message was heard all over the Hill. If they will do that to one of their own, what do you think they will do to anyone who dares to question complete support for Israel?

[Ponietz]

184. A Lancet survey found over 650,000 civilian deaths resulting from the unjust Iraq war

The second survey[2][3][4] published on 11 October 2006, estimated 654,965 excess deaths related to the war, or 2.5% of the population, through the end of June 2006. The new study applied similar methods and involved surveys between 20 May and 10 July 2006.[4] More households were surveyed, allowing for a 95% confidence interval of 392,979 to 942,636 excess Iraqi deaths. 601,027 deaths (range of 426,369 to 793,663 using a 95% confidence interval) were due to violence. 31% (186,318) of those were attributed to the US-led Coalition, 24% (144,246) to others, and 46% (276,472) unknown. The causes of violent deaths were gunshot (56% or 336,575), car bomb (13% or 78,133), other explosion/ordnance (14%), air strike (13% or 78,133), accident (2% or 12,020), and unknown (2%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties

Good point. The US has a beam in its eye.

[radius777]

273. +1. Israel has already lost, as even Thomas Friedman

has intimated in his columns lately. Many people who were previously neutral or pro-Israel are seeing what is happening, and are in shock that western governments would support such a thing.

BN's gov't was looking for this attack, had escalated provocative attacks (Al Aqsa mosque raids) - they just didn't think it would be that big. But the evidence will show, once this is investigated in the future, that they were laying the groundwork for this to use as pretext for an invastion and destruction of Gaza.

Hamas was/is a puppet gov't of the Israeli gov't under BN/Likud which saw them as useful in thwarting a two state solution and in keeping Gaza subjugated.

“for those of us who want to thwart a two state solution, we need to strengthen Hamas and funnel them money. It’s part of our strategy.” - Benjamin Netanyahu

[leftstreet]

10. DURec

[patphil]

17. You can no longer argue that Israel doesn't target civilians.

The attack on the World Central Kitchen convoy was deliberate, and targeted just those 3 vehicles.
They wanted them out, and it appears that, for now, they've gotten their way.
I hope the people of Israel wake up to the evil that rules their nation, and throw the lot of them out.
I would like to continue supporting Israel, but I can't in light of all they have done in Gaza.
It's time to put and end to US military support for Israel.

Israel, change your government now!

[BigmanPigman]

25. This is a turning point for both Biden and Bibi

This can can not be kicked down the road. This is now a substantial issue that must be addressed very soon, not weeks from now.

I was the first person on DU to report the Oct 7th attack, I checked my posts,since I clearly remember it. I have tried to keep out of this for the most part since it is such a contentious issue on DU. I was reported to the DU Jury many times and I have tried to stay civil and objective. I do not want to be kicked off of DU but it is very difficult for me to stay silent.

[Basic LA]

54. Hear Hear! Many DUers are in this position.

Here I am when I swore not to engage again for fear of a hidden msg or worse. But how can you stay silent when half the present company can justify starving children to death? And they insist people are only mad at them because they're Jewish. WTF.

[Goddessartist]

131. I hear you.

I had two removed. The second was worth it.

[Basic LA]

155. That's the spirit !

But I have to say, I have so many warnings that I'm worried. I keep trying not to engage, but how can anyone keep silent during this?
And when did it become controversial on DU to oppose genocide?

[AloeVera]

293. Hang in there, you're doing great.

Your voice is needed.

Just try to keep your cool. I left for a few weeks, I couldn't take the full-throated defense of things I saw as morally wrong and indefensible and there were just a few voices speaking up. When I came back I was thrilled to see the tidal wave of "new" and "old" voices speaking up, and far better than I ever could. Yours is one, GoddessArtist is another. Here's to both of you!

[Basic LA]

294. Thanks, I have to get grip

There's so much more I want to say. But one more slip of the tongue and I'm gone.

[Goddessartist]

307. So glad to see you!

I'd noticed you weren't around....I myself backed off for several days as I couldn't take the defense of this ongoing genocide. I have heart issues so I have to be careful not to get too riled up. I'm so glad to see you back around....and yes, our voices are needed.

Blessings to you, AloeVera.

[AloeVera]

310. Blessings to you as well, Goddessartist!

And thank you. I look for your posts too.

I am hopeful this madness will end soon. It's not soon enough and too late for many. It should have been stopped at the outset, when it was already clear where it was going. I will never understand why it was allowed and defended for so long.

We have to take care of ourselves, too and step back sometimes. Pick our battles, not fight the same ones over to no avail and deep frustration.
Mahalo, Goddessartist!
DM me anytime

[Goddessartist]

316. Good morning!

I'm hopeful the tide is changing.....and this genocide will end. Yes, it should have been stopped at the outset, but the propaganda has been going on for 75 years or so....and you can see the result in the despite for the Palestinian cause - that root will be pulled out = the constant lies about the Palestinians by the Israeli right wingers.

Sorry for the late response - I spent the day with my two grandsons, and boy was I exhausted!

You're welcome to DM me anytime as well.

[creeksneakers2]

30. Please try to understand

Joe is doing everything he can. He's worked hard for a cease fire and has drawn a red line for the Israelis at Rafah. After the October 7 slaughter Joe should not have been expected to tell the Israelis they couldn't defend themselves. He tried to get Netanyahu to be reasonable but Netanyahu is stubborn and won't listen. Some say Joe should cut off aid but I doubt he could get away with that. Israel is very powerful here. They recently got 72 votes in our Senate against just studying this situation. And if we did cut off Israel where would it all end? Were it not for us the Arabs would have overrun the entire nation years ago and turned the whole country into one big October 7. That might happen in the future if we don't protect. Please be patient. Joe is trying and the alternative to Joe is the dictator Donald Trump, who says to let Israel "finish the job."

[Earth-shine]

33. There is no question that Biden has a perspective on things that is beyond our ability to see.

It's easy enough to say cut off the flow of bombs and money to Israel, but the reality of doing it may be very complicated.

And I do say -- cut off the flow. But I am not the leader of the free world.

(I think that somebody is making a lot of money off the manufacture of arms for Israel.)

If Biden loses this election, all is lost. I mean all. The whole free world will be gone in a few years.

[angrychair]

35. I was always voting for Biden

I'm a dyed in the wool Democrat. I have never voted for anyone other than a Democrat.

That is not the question. The window of opportunity for Biden is closing fast though for many.
If Palestinians start dying in the 10s of thousands it could be enough to cost us the election.

[creeksneakers2]

47. Yes. Especially among the young people.

We've always counted on them before. Fortunately, the election is far enough off for something to change first. Joe is calling Netanyahu tomorrow. I'm praying.

[Deuxcents]

31. Gaza is a wasteland and unless the hostages were moved out of there

They may have been caught up in all the bombing and bulldozing and may not have survived…then what? It’s going on 6 months so unless they’re safe in another country, it’s hard to imagine their fate. Have they been heard from or has anyone given any indication that they are alive?

[Martin Eden]

32. It is not a matter of misplaced revenge

It is deliberate ethic cleansing.

The Netanyahu government has explicitly rejected any two state solution. Given their relentless expansion of West Bank settlements and current actions in Gaza, their long term goal of a Greater Israel ecompassing all the land is increasingly apparent.

The problem is that too many Palestinians reside within the borders, with a potentially growing demographic that could pose a threat to the Jewish state. Whether by mortality or diaspora, that population must be reduced. Famine is part of that strategy. The deady attack targeting the World Kitchen convoy has halted food deliveries.

Millenia of conflicts have been fought for control of this land. In the wake of their own diaspora and Holocaust, the long term survival of a nation state for the Jewish people is, I believe, at the core of what we're seeing now.

I'm not trying to justify anything, or to argue the current strategy is the best way to achieve the long term goal.

I'm just expressing my understanding of the situation.

[radius777]

277. BN's actions are what jeopardize the existence of Israel

more than anything else, as Israel depends on support from western gov'ts. Previously, most voters were neutral or pro-Israel, but many are now shocked at what they see. Israel has lost support from many voters in the west who will increasingly put pressure upon their gov'ts and officials to stop funding Israel unless it accepts a two state solution and respects the rights of the Palestinians to also exist.

[madaboutharry]

34. The purpose of the war is to destroy Hamas.

The purpose of the war is not to seek revenge on the people of Gaza or starve them to death. The Israelis have been working closely and successfully with WCK for many months. It makes no sense that they would intentionally seek to target WCK aid workers with whom they established a close working relationship. The highest level of command has issued numerous statements that this was a grave mistake, that it appears to have been a tragic misidentification, the military has taken full responsibility for the deaths, the government has profusely apologized for this tragedy, and they are conducting an investigation with full transparency to determine exactly how this monumental tragedy occurred.
But none of that matters to those who are committed to the narrative that Israel is evil, is comprised of nothing more than rogues and liars, and always conducts itself with malicious intent. Frankly, the Israelis are used to it and expect little else.

[angrychair]

40. Absolutely on purpose

No more excuses. No more ", accidents". Israel is actively blocking food assistance and this was a clear attempt to force NGOs like WCK out of Gaza to protect their people. There is no way WCK ever goes back into Gaza at this point. This will likely lead to thousands of deaths from starvation.
It. Has. To. Stop.

[madaboutharry]

46. You are free to believe what you want.

Just a short follow up: If the intent was to kick WCK out of Gaza then why is Israel in discussions with WCK to reverse their decision to suspend operations and to resume bringing aid into Gaza?

Like I said, believe what you want. I really don’t care.

[angrychair]

49. It's not what I believe

That matters. It does matter what Chef Andrés believes and I am only conveying what he believes happened. He believes the IDF forces targeted the vehicles on purpose. I am only agreeing with the person that knows a lot more about the situation than any of us do.
Chef Andrés has done this all over the world and this is the only time a military force has killed WCK volunteers.

I stand with Chef Andrés and I believe him because he knows better than anyone on this message board.

[Voltaire2]

96. How does executing WCK workers destroy Hamas?

[Mossfern]

239. Have to rec this with a post

It's so frustrating...

[uponit7771]

300. Purposefully bypassing literally 5 layers of safeguards to kill one suspected gunman is not destroying Hamas ...

... its indifference to the people who live there.

I know too well what systemic killings look like

[SunSeeker]

37. Why isn't anyone putting pressure on Egypt to let Gazan women and children in so they can be safe and fed?

Egypt should do for Gaza what Poland did for Ukraine. Instead, Egypt is building a bigger wall between itself and Gaza.

[angrychair]

41. That what Israel is trying to do

If they can force the Palestinians out of Gaza they can annex Gaza and incorporate it into Israel.

[Beastly Boy]

52. Israel disengaged and forced all the Jewish settlers out of Gaza in 2005 so

they could force the Palestinians out of Gaza, annex it and incorporate it into Israel in 2024?

How much sense does this make?

[angrychair]

55. It's not what you think

When Ariel Sharon did that, his intentions were not altruistic. He was trying to short circuit the peace talks, all while grabbing land in other places. A move to grab Gaza back from the Palestinians would not be a reversal but a closing of the circle that Sharon started 20 years ago.

[Beastly Boy]

59. What I think is that your reply shows no substance or logic to your claims.

If this is not what I think, perhaps you can tell me what I ought to think after reading your post:

What peace talks should I think was Sharon trying to short circuit and how disengaging from Gaza should I think would accomplish that?
What land in what places should I think Sharon grabbed all the while?
Why should I think that a move to grab Gaza is not a reversal from a move to disengage from Gaza?

And a question about the OP: You say you "no longer" support Israel. Can you link to a post (or any source) in which you ever supported Israel? Five years ago? Ten years ago? Twenty years ago?

BTW, I stand with Chef Andrés and I believe him too. And he is limiting his comments to what he knows: his people were hit by IDF, and it appears to be a deliberate hit. He doesn't dive head first into speculating about any land grab, or any other subject that is outside of his range of knowledge.

[angrychair]

74. I'm not Google.

All that information is out there if you want to find it.

The road map called for negotiations; Sharon refused to negotiate. His unilateral move was designed to freeze the political process, thereby preventing the establishment of a Palestinian state and maintaining the geopolitical status quo in the West Bank.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/13/ariel-sharon-no-man-of-peace-israel

Sharon envisaged (post Gaza separation) at the same time annexing Jerusalem, the Jordan Valley, and the major settlements like Ma'ale Adumim and Ariel which he had in the meantime developed, and thereby isolate Palestinians on the West Bank in territory that constituted less than half of what existed beyond the Green Line

Sharon was a militant war criminal who was proud of his nickname "Bulldozer" which requires no imagination as to why.
His solution left Gaza a virtual police state that required no IDF troops in Gaza. They controlled 6 of 7 crossings. Gaza airspace and coastline. A non-man zone within Gaza to prevent people from getting close to the boarder wall. Passports and all travel in and out of Gaza. It also was the sole source of water, food and electricity into Gaza.

I've been a member of this website for 18 years. I'm not linking to any of my posts. It's out there.

[Beastly Boy]

82. An opinion piece over 10 years old.

And nothing more substantial to add to your claims than one opinion in over ten years' worth of opinions accessible via Google.

You know what opinions are like. Everybody has one. I had one ten years ago. That doesn't create in you a sense of confidence in my claims being logical or substantive, does it?

And, to tell the truth, I didn't expect you to find a single post in which you expressed support for Israel. Even though you are claiming it is out there, somewhere.

[SunSeeker]

67. What is wrong with saving women and children from the fighting?

We may be able to get them back into Gaza once Hamas is eliminated from there, but we sure can't do it if they're dead.

[maxsolomon]

164. You know that's Jared Kushner's idea, right?

The one that everyone is saying is his plan to develop Gaza into a seaside resort property?

He was actually saying to move non-combatants "into the Negev" for the duration of the war.

[SunSeeker]

249. No, temporarily giving women and children sanctuary in Egypt is not Jared's idea.

Jared's idea is to move 2.2 million Palestinian men, women and children permanently to the Negev desert in Israel. That is an insane idea. That is NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about temporaily letting Palestinian women and children stay in neighboring Arab countries like Egypt and/or Lebanon and/or Jordan, like how Ukrainian women snd children were temporarily taken in by Poland and other countries. And yes, I have heard about Jared's idiotic dreams of turning Gaza into a beach resort. That will never happen.

[AloeVera]

181. Egypt doesn't want ethnic cleansing under guise of humanitarianism.

Israel created this mess to further goals not having to do with Hamas. Its neighbours don't want to play along.

The rest of the world doesn't think Israel's war goals are morally sound or should take precedence, or come at the cost of a couple million lives lost or displaced.

[SunSeeker]

250. Israel did not create this mess. Hamas did. Saving women and children is the opposite of ethnic cleansing.

When the women and children of Ukraine were temporarily housed in Poland, that was not ethnic cleansing. Letting them die would have been ethnic cleansing.

[AloeVera]

260. EC plus Collective Punishment under guise of humanitarianism

Your idea suggests a mindset of collective guilt and punishment for Gaza's men. Women and children first was fine for the Titanic but in this situation it's discrimination against a civilian sub-set that is very revealing. There are enough children without fathers and women without husbands already.

Israel is responsible for its own actions.

The decision to have men stay in Ukraine was Ukraine's, not the aggressor's. Based on the needs of their military, which Gaza does not have. Totally different.

You can look up the UN definition of ethnic cleansing and forcible displacement under threat of military action is right there. It has already happened.

[SunSeeker]

282. No, it is not collective punishment for Gaza men, anymore than it was for Ukrainian men.

Egypt won't let Gazan refugees in because it fears political destabilization in its own country by fighters coming in with the Palestinian refugees, like what happened in Jordan. If we pressure Egypt to take in women and children, Egypt won't have that excuse, and it will save lives.

[IronLionZion]

58. So they can leave and never return. Israel will never let them come back.

It's forced removal comparable to Trail of Tears or Bataan Death March or India/Pakistan partition.

Or what happened to Palestinians removed from Israeli territory already:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

[SunSeeker]

65. No, so they can survive.

It's not permanent removal, just like it wasn't for the Ukrainians.

[RockRaven]

79. The history of that region in the last 3-5 generations says otherwise.

What is called temporary today becomes indefinite and then de facto permanent.

[SunSeeker]

83. What does any of that matter if they are dead?

Don't the value of their lives now matter more than the potential future risk to Palestinian nationalism if these Palestinians do not return?

[RockRaven]

84. I'm not commenting on the value of their lives only the lack of evidence that

there would be any reasonable prospect of return after leaving -- which is something you said could happen.

[SunSeeker]

86. Don't their lives matter more than the potential risk to Palestinian nationalism?

[RockRaven]

93. I repeat my previous reply. What you are saying to me is a repeated non sequitur.

[SunSeeker]

297. It is not a "non sequitor." I am asking you a question you obviously don't want to answer.

The lives of these women and children are worth more than Hamas' nationalist dreams. Egypt should give them temporary shelter so they can be fed and get medical care instead of walling them off in Rafah.

[SunSeeker]

247. The history of the region does not justify letting women and children die in the crossfire of war. nt

[RockRaven]

251. Of course it doesn't JUSTIFY it. And yet the historical record is awash in it.

I objected to a statement you made about what could/would happen in the future which runs contrary to the historical record, and you persist in responding repeatedly by arguing against a point which I have never uttered. You are jousting with a strawman, for what purpose I know not. Would you like to address your fantastical notion which was the subject of my initial reply, or not? BTW, not is fine, just move on.

[SunSeeker]

252. Good, then we're in agreement that Egypt's refusal to temporarily let in Gazan women and children is unjustified. nt

[RockRaven]

253. I have uttered no comment upon that, so it is odd to assert I agree with it.

What is reading comprehension anyway?

[SunSeeker]

254. So you're fine with Egypt building a wall and keeping Gazan women and children out? nt

[RockRaven]

255. As previously with you, I repeat my previous reply in response to your

immediately repeated error.

[SunSeeker]

256. Your previous replies are not responsive to this question. This question calls for a yes or a no answer. nt

[RockRaven]

257. Your question is unrelated to my original reply. Do you pose random questions

to everyone on DU and demand they answer it? That would be a strange conversation style. Typically one tries to have their comment be responsive to the thing they are replying to.

[SunSeeker]

258. It's not a random, nor an unrelated question. You just don't want to answer it.

So noted. Good night, if it's night wherever you are.

[obamanut2012]

219. lol

[summer_in_TX]

38. Israelis have killed almost 200 humanitarian aid workers have now been killed and at least 95 journalists and media

Last edited Wed Apr 3, 2024, 11:17 PM - Edit history (1)

workers since October 7 when Hamas brutally attacked and slaughtered so many people. News reporters have documented that these and other humanitarian aid workers applied for permission from the Israeli government, filed travel plans with the IDF, and traveled in marked vehicles. Sometimes they'd received permission, other times they never heard back. So the idea that all of these killings were merely accidents does not seem plausible.

Chef José Andrés says his aid convoy and workers were targeted. https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218833058

Israel certainly has the right to exist and defend itself against a horrific attack to make sure it never happens again.

But under Netanyahu, they are in violation of conventions of warfare agreed to under the Geneva Conventions and are giving lip service to protection of civilians while actually moving them into what turns out to be harms way. Children are dying from hunger and the government is choking food aid off so that continues to accelerate. They are not succeeding in winning the release of most of the hostages, causing increasingly desperate pleas from families and ever-larger internal demonstrations.

Bibi seems to be using this war to prevent accountability regarding crimes he has been charged with and to cling to power. It seems increasingly clear that under his leadership, war crimes have been committed quite egregiously. That is not in Israel's longterm interests, whether or not it satisfies the understandable human desire for revenge. At this point, the only strategic benefit it may bring will be very short-term, while the longterm harm to Israel will last generations. Bibi is making Israel heinous in the eyes of the world and it is obscuring what Hamas did because it goes on and on and on and on.

[SunSeeker]

91. The UN figure is 180, and not all of them were killed by Israeli strikes.

Approximately 500 aid workers are killed each year around the world trying to do their very dangerous jobs (Aid Worker Security Report Figures at a glance - Humanitarian Outcomes, https://www.humanitarianoutcomes.org/sites/default/files/publications/ho_aws-preview_july_23_final.pdf ).

In Ukraine, Russian forces killed at least 11 aid workers and illegally detained at least 39 aid workers, many of whom were reportedly abused. https://www.aidworkersecurity.org/incidents/report

Israel is not intentionally targeting aid workers. The strike on the 3 WCK vehicles happened at night, so their roof insignia was not evident like it would have been during the day. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-03-2024-3e379f56a6153c347179e3e99823c407 Israel says it was a mistake, apparently by lower level IDF soldiers who conducted the strike without properly confirming the vehicles' identity. Israel is working with aid organizations to get aid through, and was in fact coordinating deliveries specifically with WCK. Those 3 vehicles had just delivered aid and were on their way back, unloaded of aid, when they were hit.

I agree that Bibi is hurting his own country, with his incompetence and corruption. Alas, he would have probably been pushed out by now if it were not for Hamas' October 7 attack.

[summer_in_TX]

245. It's easier to make mistakes in the dark.

Knowing that it was not daytime provides important context. I understand Chef José Andrés believes his people were not deliberately targeted.

[onecaliberal]

42. We only needed to look at the recent history of our own blood lust after 9-11.

I am for love, not war. ✌🏻

[d_b]

43. Fuck Israel

[EllieBC]

213. Fuck Hamas.

Oh wait they’re ok though, right? Just a bunch of misunderstood “freedom fighters.”

[obamanut2012]

220. Link to where that poster or ANYONE on DU not a 50-post troll said that

Y'all keep trying to act like anyone against the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is Pro Hamas.

[AverageOldGuy]

45. I'm with you.

I guarantee you the munitions that killed the WCK people came from us. I’ll bet they have US markings all over them.

Biden needs to tell Israel beginning immediately they will receive only small arms ammo and that will be limited. Open all roads into Gaza now . Stop settlements on West Bank. Palestinian Arabs need a home that’s free of Israeli domination.

[obamanut2012]

221. That si very clever -- small arms ammo only

100% agree,

[Behind the Aegis]

51. Did you ever?

Seriously. I am wondering, if you ever actually defended Israel without the standard "but". I have seen too many "I was for it before I was against it" types. I am not overly familiar with you, or your posts. So, did you ever actually support Israel?

[angrychair]

56. Go look at my posts

Because I have. I was completely on board with Israel defending itself but they obviously abandoned any plausible argument for "defending themselves" when they pushed over a million people into a small seaside town, bombed Gaza flat and then said they plan to bomb the only safe place the people of gaza, over 1 million people, have left. Where are they to go when all the buildings in Rafah are rubble?

[SunSeeker]

69. Egypt, Lebanon?

[Behind the Aegis]

88. Point me to one. (I will look later, so just one) EDIT NEVERMIND, I looked...

Last edited Thu Apr 4, 2024, 02:52 AM - Edit history (1)

Like I said, not all that familiar with you or your posts, but I have seen a number of posts like yours and they were bullshit. "What happened on October 7th was wrong, but given what Israel has done for the past 80 years, it should have been expected. I am sure Israel will overreact and claim "self-defense", as they always do." Is NOT supportive of Israel. That is just a sampling of some of the "supportive" responses after October 7th.

EDIT:
Attack happened October 7th and your very first post (I only searched the main groups) was:

angrychair (8,626 posts)
1. Sooooo starve innocent people to death
Reply to brooklynite (Original post)
Sat Oct 7, 2023, 09:58 PM
Everybody just cheers I guess?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3141189

2nd post:

angrychair (8,626 posts)
11. Does Israel warn civilians
Reply to EX500rider (Reply #8)
Sat Oct 7, 2023, 11:24 PM
When they plow down Palestinian homes and take their land as a new Israeli settlement?

It's hard to argue that Israel treats Palestinians as human beings when any Israeli can just take their land like they don't even matter.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/07/israel-un-experts-condemn-forced-eviction-east-jerusalem-families
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3141210

angrychair (8,626 posts)
13. You looking past the bulldozing of homes
Reply to EX500rider (Reply #12)
Sat Oct 7, 2023, 11:32 PM
Of innocent civilians? I already gave you a link to the UN calling it a war crime.

It is also a Article 53 violation of the Geneva Convention.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-53#:~:text=Any%20destruction%20by%20the%20Occupying,absolutely%20necessary%20by%20military%20operations.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3141212

angrychair (8,626 posts)
22. "my source"
Reply to Beastly Boy (Reply #19)
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 12:56 AM
Is the UN. I didn't make that determination, the UN did. Your argument is with the UN and the Geneva Convention not me. It's not personal, just reality.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3141231

Then there was the self-deleted thread you started: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218341529

I could keep going, but I am sure it is obvious now, you have NEVER supported Israel, and everyone else with a star can do the same search. October 6th, 2023, to Nov, 7, 2023.

[angrychair]

139. Those are not "attacks"

But fair criticism. Also, you are cherry picking from all the different things I've said. I've never said that Israel didn't have a right to defend itself or to attack terrorists like Hamas.

My criticism is in how they treat Palestinians, which is more than fair.


Think what you want but I don't appreciate the implication that I am against Israel. I'm not. But
their actions against Palestinians, completely separate from Hamas, who again are terrorists, cannot be ignored.

[Behind the Aegis]

194. Remember, lift with knees when moving goalposts.

Your OP stated:

No longer defending Israel
This war is no longer about Hamas but misplaced revenge against the people of Gaza.
I am now fully in the camp that Israel's primary goal at this point is genocide of the Palestinian people.
There is no other interpretation.

The attack on World Central Kitchen vehicles was a means to an end to halt/slow food aid to Gaza. I believe it is fully their intention to stave the Palestinian people to death.

I am fully in the camp demanding a complete halt to all aid and assistance to Israel of any kind. I also feel the the US should expel all but the Israeli ambassador to the US.
The Israeli commander of that attack should be sanctioned and deemed persona non grata.

Biden must up the pressure on Israel or risk real trouble going into the general election.
I will still vote for him but I'll be honest this is pretty awful and not a good look for Democrats.

I stand with Chef Andrés and I believe him

I asked:

Did you ever?
Reply to angrychair (Original post)
Wed Apr 3, 2024, 11:33 PM
Seriously. I am wondering, if you ever actually defended Israel without the standard "but". I have seen too many "I was for it before I was against it" types. I am not overly familiar with you, or your posts. So, did you ever actually support Israel?

Note, I never addressed your other misinformed opinions; frankly, didn't give a shit.

You responded with:

Go look at my posts
Reply to Behind the Aegis (Reply #51)
Wed Apr 3, 2024, 11:53 PM
Because I have. I was completely on board with Israel defending itself but they obviously abandoned any plausible argument for "defending themselves" when they pushed over a million people into a small seaside town, bombed Gaza flat and then said they plan to bomb the only safe place the people of gaza, over 1 million people, have left. Where are they to go when all the buildings in Rafah are rubble?

Now, I added the emphasis to demonstrate you were responding to my question; "Did you ever (support Israel)?" And you claimed " I was completely on board with Israel defending itself[" and then instructed me to "go search your posts". Big mistake! HUGE! Because, I actually did, as shown above. You NEVER supported Israel. I didn't find a SINGLE post where you claimed Israel had the right to defend itself, even the DAY OF THE ATTACK.

Then you respond with strawman arguments and other logical misfires.

Those are not "attacks" But fair criticism. Also, you are cherry picking from all the different things I've said. I've never said that Israel didn't have a right to defend itself or to attack terrorists like Hamas.

I didn't say dick about "attacks" by you or even imply or claim those posts were anything other than proof that your claim of supporting Israel weren't true. Period.

Think what you want but I don't appreciate the implication that I am against Israel. I'm not. But
their actions against Palestinians, completely separate from Hamas, who again are terrorists, cannot be ignored.

Why thank-you for allowing me to have my own thoughts. How kind. BUT, you still claim, even after a search of your posts, that you at one time supported Israel. Your posts do NOT show this. I never claimed you were "against Israel" the topic was if you ever SUPPORTED Israel and the answer is a definitive, unequivocable...

NO!

Show me one post where you "supported" Israel. ONE! There is always the possibility I missed it (them? (doubtful)). You NEVER supported Israel, and that is fine, OWN UP TO IT, don't try to gaslight people into thinking your stance "evolved". It didn't.

[sarisataka]

143. The search feature has been interesting to review posts from October 7.

The first reply to what seems to be the initial report of the attack is to question the veracity of the source. Withing 15 minutes of the report was a post that it was Israel's fault.

It began right out of the gate, before Israel even fired the first shot in reply. I haven't even bothered to re-read the posts of October 8 about the rallies around the world cheering Hamas. I don't want to make myself sick again.

[LymphocyteLover]

162. I defended Israel on their Gaza invasion and attacks, up until I learned how they are restricting food so severely that

they are starving Gazans. That crosses the line for me, and this attack on WCK is completely evil.

[Skittles]

53. the entire area makes me sick

these people will NEVER stop hating each other.....DISGUSTING

[emmacom]

57. I cannot stop crying. To think that a people who have been persecuted would treat others so!

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-says-israel-targeted-his-aid-workers-systematically-car-by-car-2024-04-03/

[SunSeeker]

68. You mean like the persecuted Palestinians who killed and raped teenage concert goers?

Yes, it's mindboggling.

[enid602]

95. Holocaust

If only the Holocaust generation were still in control in Israel.

[lapucelle]

309. How sad that you cannot stop crying, but welcome to DU.

[sheshe2]

312. This is the aftermath of 10/07-The day Hamas broke the ceasefire.

Inside the Israeli lab ‘reassembling and reconnecting’ the mangled bodies of the dead

TEL AVIV — A bone. A tooth. A sliver of skull. They came in bags, endless bags, mixed with ash, coins, bullets and shrapnel. Like imperfect tapestries, some held the remains of different people. The bags were numbered, cataloged and scanned. DNA was extracted. The science was precise, but it was hard to know what happened, how a person was killed.

One bag, which held clues to the final seconds of life, unnerved and intrigued Dr. Chen Kugel, head of the National Center of Forensic Medicine here. Since Oct. 7, his staff has been working on identifying the remains of some of the 1,200 people killed by Hamas militants. He has been trying to understand not only the causes of death but also the underlying hate. Both, he said, often lie beyond one’s imagination.

“This is a piece of something that looks like charcoal,” he said. “But then you see it through a CT scan, and you see two spines, one of an adult and one of someone younger, maybe 10 or 12 years old. And two sets of ribs. You can see they are roped around with this metal wire. These were people who were hugging one another and burned while they were tied together. It might be a parent and a child.”

>
The remains came from towns and kibbutzim near the Gaza border including Sderot, Kfar Aza and Beeri — names now recited like whispered hymns — and the music festival in the Negev desert where 260 died. They were collected by Zaka, a team of mostly Orthodox volunteers, who scoured the landscape so that every possible part of a person could be buried according to religious law.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-11-16/la-fg-col1-israel-forensic-pathologist#:~:text=Chen%20Kugel%2C%20head%20of%20the,but%20also%20the%20underlying%20hate.

[Xolodno]

71. If Biden loses to Trump...

and its a big IF, it will be to this issue. Vietnam wasn't lost, it was the absolute horrifying violence that turned people off to it. And thus, we had to leave.

And some here can scream until they are blue in the face that the alternative is worse, yes it is, very much so. But we are a microcosm of an electorate that does not represent the majority, get over it. We have a good issue of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade, but, most voters have very short term memories and often vote on issues that can be counted on one hand, if that. And starving and dead children make one hell of an add. It's one of the reasons why I think the Speaker did an about face and is willing to change his tune and bring Ukraine aid on the floor. Here we are helping one nation trying to fend for itself for its existence, but at the same time, giving more weapons to a nation with nukes who is attacking indiscriminately on a population. Add insult to injury some here just say "well, that's war". I bet they are laughing their asses off in the Kremlin. We aren't looking good around the world right now and it doesn't matter who you blame, actions speak. I've travelled enough to know that.

Some of the comments I see in this thread, well, they are probably secret and/or lying to themselves as Bibi apologists, sad to say. I've seen enough documentaries where settlers didn't even consider Palestinians even human. And no doubt, some of them are in the military. And the irony, Bibi created these conditions for it all to happen because of his hubris and some still refuse to acknowledge it.

There, I wrote it. I expect the usual crowd to hem and haw, whataboutism, etc. Don't worry, I won't bother responding as you won't convince me. But it will massage certain things for yourself.

[SunSeeker]

75. No, we left Vietnam because we lost.

The US Army had to fight in unfamiliar territory, was lacking in moral, were not prepared for the conditions, could not shut down the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and were untrained to respond to guerilla warfare. This combination of disadvantages and the loss of public support led to the United States withdrawing from Vietnam.

We were done wasting American lives on a hopeless war.

The Israelis are not losing in Gaza. They will not stop the fighting unless Hamas turns over the hostages.

BTW, to your point that "starving and dead children make one hell of an add[sic]," who do you think will make this ad? Republicans? They love Bibi and want him to lay waste to Gaza, so no. But Putin would make such an ad, and has in fact been doing so through his internet trolls. Putin loves the division among Dems the Gaza issue has caused, because it helps Trump.

[Xolodno]

77. Well, I'll respond to this.

The Tet Offensive was a failure. But it is what broke the camels back after saying North Vietnam could not mount a serious offensive. Seeing naked kids running from a burning village, a US supported leader commencing street justice (granted it may have been "warranted&quot , etc. is what defeated the USA. North Vietnam was broken after the Tet Offensive, but they gambled correctly that our appetite for war would eventually give out. The Taliban gambled the same, but there is more to that.

I just hope we don't have any "Domino Theory" proponents in the military and CIA. It's been proven a false theory time and time again.

[claudette]

78. Yep

That’s about it.

[Mountainguy]

81. Yeah, I'm sure you were supporting Israel before

Cut off diplomatic contact with one of our best allies over something that the US has done countless times themselves.

Ridiculous.

[akbacchus_BC]

100. The US supports Israel, what else is new?

[tirebiter]

85. I support the Israel that is currently taking to the streets trying to hold Netenyahu responsible for actions

…that precede the Hamas invasion of Israel.
We may be in an all too similar situation if Trump is re-elected.

[elocs]

97. The indefensible cannot be defended. Israel has lost the moral high ground. It's gone

and the whole world is watching. Apologists of this Israeli genocide in Gaza, even here, are left with calling those who condemn it as antisemitic. How sad.

[akbacchus_BC]

98. I agree with you. Israel wants Gaza and netenyahu is cruel to do what hitler did to jews as

he and his generals are doing to Palestinians. This shit that israel is doing is sick.

[malaise]

101. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

has real meaning in my life.
As I said from day one nothing justifies this response.

[Donkees]

102. Then the scorpion said to the kind frog: ''I couldn't resist, it's my nature"

[malaise]

103. Correct is right

but I have learned not to be a kind frog.

[Donkees]

104. Seems Nethanyahu should try to swim on his own

[Raven123]

106. Enough is enough

I have communicated with Biden my support for Israel in the past. Yesterday I communicated my belief that enough is enough. A ceasefire is needed. I don’t pretend to understand the intricacies of the Gaza conflict, but clearly Netanyahu, like TFG, has put his own interests above that of Israel.

I advise everyone concerned to send Joe a message. You can go to whitehouse.gov to find the contact link.

[Doc Sportello]

108. K&R

This Israeli government is a terrorist state. You captured the feeling among the many decent Democrats here and in the country.

[RandiFan1290]

109. The same people calling me "pro-Hamas"

also called me "pro-Saddam"

I welcome their hatred.

[mwb970]

119. Israel has killed tens of thousands, "mostly women and children".

I am very sorry but I simply cannot condone this evil behavior. So sue me.

[JustAnotherGen]

120. All Israelis?

All Israelis from the US? That impacts a personal friendship - and her son in law.

AFTER we expel every single effing Russian national - we can discuss Israel. Israel has never done anything to the USA - Russians?

Send their asses home.

[Johnny2X2X]

128. It has seem to taken a turn

10/7 as horrific and Hamas are animals. But I think this has become less about an achievable goals with Hamas and more about punishing the Palestinian people. It looks like revenge and Netanyahu wants civilians to suffer and he wants Gaza to never be the same again.

This isn't genocide though, people throwing that word around carelessly are diminishing its meaning and power.

[Scrivener7]

130. I actually don't think N is after revenge. I think he's after land

and will do whatever it takes to clear it.

We have to stop funding and arming that.

[Johnny2X2X]

137. I don't think that

There are extremists in Israel that would take the land, but it will go back to being in the hands of the Palestinians soon enough.

The amount of legitimate hate on both sides is sad. The majority of both sides actually hate each other. It's not a situation where Hamas and Netanyahu are acting without the consent of the vast majorities of their populations.

The US is in a tough spot and Netanyahu wants Russia and Trump to control the US, but we also can't abandon Israel. We are putting more pressure on Israel than people know, but ultimately we don't really have control over it. After the bombing of the World Kitchen volunteers, I think we need to start cutting weapons deliveries down, but that's really not going to change anything.

[SARose]

129. Hamas has achieved its goal

Hamas leaders made a calculated decision to murder Israeli citizens at a concert venue. Hamas leaders made a calculated decision to take Israeli citizens hostage. Hamas leaders hoped Netanyahu and his Cabinet would squander the world’s outrage.

Netanyahu took the bait and here we are.

Hamas is still standing.
Approximately 130 Israeli hostages are still missing/dead.
Israel may be winning the scorched Earth war tactics but they are losing the empathy and good will of the world. This was the ultimate Hamas goal.
Gaza citizens are paying the ultimate price for a decision made by their leaders.
Israeli citizens are also paying a price for decisions made by their leaders.

Just like Korea, Vietnam, Russians in Afghanistan and US in Afghanistan, Israel is unwilling or unable to find an exit strategy that brings their citizens home.

Gazans are paying the ultimate price for their leaders undying devotion to eliminating Jews and Christians from Palestine.

Millions of aid dollars have been squandered over the years. The people of Gaza remain trapped in a never ending cycle of poverty and state sponsored terrorism.

Israeli citizens live in a constant state of vigilance never knowing where/when the next massacre will happen.

Meanwhile the Arab world turns their backs on the Palestinians. Egypt doesn’t want these people and neither does any other country in the region.

I don’t know how you convince a people to beat their swords into plowshares. It’s a no win situation for everyone.

Jest my two cents.

[RAB910]

146. Israel was on the verge of Arab world countries recognizing Israel. Thanks to Bibi, that is not going to happen

at least in our life times.

Right-wingers are so easily manipulated by terrorists because right-wing ideology is founded on fear, hate, and anger

[SARose]

214. I had forgotten that

Thanks! I agree.

[uponit7771]

304. +1, Hamas is meeting its goal and Bibi is helping them at every step

[dalton99a]

140. Idiot homicidal maniacs are making the world forget Oct. 7

Sympathy for Israel is fading fast.

[Scrivener7]

150. This knee jerk slur really doesn't work in this situation anymore.

[obamanut2012]

152. I missed the post, but I bet I know what it said

[Scrivener7]

175. Yep. I bet you do too.

[atreides1]

153. Five prohibited acts

The Genocide Convention establishes five prohibited acts that, when committed with the requisite intent, amount to genocide. Genocide is not just defined as wide scale massacre-style killings that are visible and well-documented. International law recognizes a broad range of forms of violence in which the crime of genocide can be enacted.



Killing members of the group Article II(a)...CHECK

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group Article II(b)...CHECK

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction Article II(c)...CHECK

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group Article II(d)...CHECK

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group Article II(e)...Haven't seen this one yet.

[msfiddlestix]

156. K&R It saddens me to read denials of reality here, the deliberate and desperate attempt to deflect from the point

at hand, and attempting to own the definition of genocide as if it cannot possibly be applied to events other than the Holocaust. It's actually bizarre, Unfortunately it appears it will always remain thus.

[BannonsLiver]

165. Yea it's sad so many people are myopic one issue voters

[msfiddlestix]

195. Agree completely. I have good friends who are making the ME War their political hill to die on.

Demands that have been made for the past several decades which no President has been able or willing to do.
It's complicated, but it's also easily distilled to two connected base line issues.

Ethnic-Religious Dominance/Supremacy/Hegemony.
Blind hatred by Racism and Religious Cult worship/identity.

It's a thing Humanity has yet to overcome and will likely never overcome.

If our country cannot yet evolve from this irrational, hideous and dangerous inclination to refuse to separate themselves and our laws from Religious Dominance, we're likely never to evolve from our national racists and misogynistic
divisions and conflicts . IMHO.

[SoFlaBro]

241. These 1-issue voters were just waiting for a fucking reason to hate Biden and tee-off on Jews in the process. Sick shit.

[BannonsLiver]

269. 100 percent true

And most are antisemites.

[sindri]

157. Self-governance

I believe Israel is simply ensuring more terrorist groups will form to attack them in the future and more people will see them as the bad guys. People need self governance or they will revolt. Israel has not allowed this in any meaningful form for the Palestinians and to me it looks like more of a rebellion. I do not support Hamas or the Israeli leadership - both seem to want to sacrifice their own people to "win". They unwilling to accept the reality that people will never settle for oppression and will fight to the end and so both sides will do just that - kill each other off until there is nothing less. New leadership is needed and compromise is the only way. Not your way or my way but OUR way is the best way for peace in my opinion.

[ismnotwasm]

158. For me it's not about defending Israel.

It’s acknowledging that for far to many people, they seem to be unable to criticize Israel without using anti-semitism as the guide to do so.

All war is bullshit. Any action that leads to so much pain and suffering whether it’s a nation or a terrorist group, is bullshit.

(As an aside, I have a very offensive opinion on why we seem to always continue war, it has to do with testosterone and patriarchy )

Israel is not an exception to this. It is, however, surrounding by nations who want to eradicate Israel. They have terrorist groups dedicated to this goal—and those groups use anything to manipulate public opinion, and have been doing so for decades. This action, this brutality is not out of nowhere. It is not out of a genuine desire to commit “genocide”. It is a fight for the life of a nation, in the eyes of the government of Israel. Historically and geographically I can see why Israel reacts the way they do.
The picture being painted is that of a rich, powerful nation lobbing bombs at a tiny, impoverished innocent area full of people who just want to survive and be free, all because of a pesky theater bombing that barely killed a thousand people, and geez, just a few hostages. Right?

So, then, Is that the entire picture? Polls show that the Palestinian people support Hamas anywhere from 27% up. Not great. Hamas is the elected government of Palestine, which conveniently stopped having elections. . Hamas is a brutal terrorist group, that initially used suicide bombers, whose stated purpose, is the eradication of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state. They are honest about what they want. Believe them.


Over 30, 000 Palestinians killed. Over a third of them children. Again, war is bullshit. I will point out that Hamas is perfectly willing, able and has precedent using innocents to manipulate the situation. They are very, very good at what they do.

There are radical groups and extremists and opportunists who are using this situation. Once this action has ended, what next?

[Big Blue Marble]

178. This is not a war. This is vengeance. This is a slaughter by starvation and disease.

And it is not an accident; many leaders including Netanyahu and Galant said so
at the beginning of the war. They have all quieted down now since their statements
were used as evidence at the ICJ in January; but their initial statements are
still available.

Here is one of many:

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-11-23/ty-article-opinion/.premium/giora-eil

Giora Eiland's Monstrous Gaza Proposal Is Evil in Plain Sigh

"Giora Eiland is one of the “thinking officers” to have come out of the IDF. Pleasant and eloquent, his demeanor is all moderation and sound judgment. He had an impressive military career, was head of the military’s Operations and Planning Division and head of the National Security Council. He is constantly being interviewed and hailed by the Labor movement. He isn’t inarticulate and ignorant like Brig. Gen. Amir Avivi and isn’t bloodthirsty like Itamar Ben Gvir. Middle of the road, moderate right.

Eiland, not a well man, who has even written a book about his suffering, has an idea: Epidemics in Gaza are good for Israel. “After all, severe epidemics in the southern Strip will bring victory closer and reduce fatalities among IDF soldiers,” he wrote this week in Yedioth Ahronoth. One only has to wait for the daughters of Hamas’ leaders to contract the plague, and we’ve won."

[ismnotwasm]

187. No, it isn't.

Linking to opinion pieces does not negate historical fact. Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Period.

[Big Blue Marble]

240. And Israel has been killing and abusing Palestinians

long before Hamas came into existence.

This article shows one example of the evidence of genetical intent that was presented by
South Africa at the ICJ in January

Are you offended by stated intent of Giora Eiland? Does it trouble you
that he is suggesting that disease and death to the children of Gaza, a war crime,
is a way to fight the war.

[yagotme]

267. And Palestinians have been killing Israelis' before Hamas, too.

Kinda why the wall was built. Your point???

[radius777]

274. Many more Palestinians have been killed

than Israelis in this long standing conflict. Hamas was/is a puppet of Netanyahu, who laid the groundwork for this attack so he could justify the destruction and eventual resettlement of Gaza.

“for those of us who want to thwart a two state solution, we need to strengthen Hamas and funnel them money. It’s part of our strategy.”

[yagotme]

276. Then I guess that Israel is so much better than Palestinian terrorists

at suicide bombings and attacks, to ensure such a lopsided death rate. Oh, wait a minute...

[radius777]

279. Israel is well funded by the west

ie our tax dollars - which gives it the ability better subjugate and kill the Palestinians. The IDF are the biggest terrorists in the eyes of many.

And as stated, Hamas was/is a puppet of Netanyahu and his gov't, and is thus far more responsible for 10-7 than the Palestinian people, who are an oppressed group with little self determination.

[yagotme]

281. Hamas is well funded/supplied by Iran.

The Palestinian could have overthrown Hamas at any time, if we're to believe Hamas is as few and not supported as some here are leading us to believe...

We could do this all day...

[radius777]

283. Hamas is funded by Iran and Qatar,

and Bibi/Likud facilitated the Qatari funding for years. Hamas is a stateless terror group that is far smaller/weaker than the IDF.

The Palestinians are victims of both Hamas and the Israeli gov't, and lack self determination. The Israeli gov't has targeted peaceful protesters and activists. The Israeli gov't does not want a two state solution, which is why it has propped up bad actors like Hamas.

[yagotme]

284. Hamas doesn't want a 2-state solution, either.

"River to the sea", remember? And, Hamas, currently runs Gaza, so I wouldn't exactly call them "stateless", as they do have political control over a specific area/group of people.

[radius777]

285. Of course, that's why Bibi propped up Hamas,

because neither want a two state solution.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035
How Netanyahu's Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel
The Israeli leader and Hamas are deadly enemies — and allies in opposing a 2-state solution
Israelis don't agree on much, especially lately, but polling shows they mostly agree that Prime Minister Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu is to blame for leaving Israel unprepared for Hamas's onslaught on October 7.
The accusations aimed at Netanyahu go beyond merely failing to foresee or prevent the Hamas attack of October 7, however. Many accuse him of deliberately empowering the group for decades as part of a strategy to sabotage a two-state solution based on the principle of land for peace.

[uponit7771]

301. Yes it is ... The Chef has more credibility than Bibi or Biden on this issue. Reality has to set in at some point

[LymphocyteLover]

160. Yes. Please contact the White House about this.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/

[BannonsLiver]

163. Meh

[BobTheSubgenius]

172. Israel has done a masterful job of of squandering both public opinion and the undisputed high ground they held.

[Mosby]

176. So nothing about the Hamas hostages?

Just f-Israel?

If you really think that the Israelis are purposely trying to starve the Palestinian Arabs to death, and take over Gaza (why) then I don't think your worth listening to.

[angrychair]

179. That people are dying of starvation

Is not in question. They are. That is reality. Not my opinion but that of the UN and majority of western nations on Earth.
Interesting you bring up the hostages. Because, according to many family members of hostages, they no longer believe rescue is even an objective of the Israeli government.
That the attack gave every appearance of being on purpose is again, not my opinion but that of Chef Andres who is calling for an independent investigation.
While I may have interjected some of my own opinions, the bulk of things I've said is not opinion but generally accepted facts of events.
Israel absolutely has the right to prosecute a war against Hamas but it does not have the right to starve innocent people to death in the process.

[Mosby]

288. Hamas is stealing most of the food aid.

Everything that is happening to the Gazans is the fault of Hamas.

[uponit7771]

303. A person can believe The Chef and want hostages to be freed, no one should support starving millions of people for

... any reason.

[LiberalArkie]

177. I realized it way early on when Netanyahu said that all Gaza's people were Hamas. He earlier had

said that his intention was to eliminate Hamas. Then there was talk about land development on the Gaza beaches.

[MenloParque]

182. There will be no development on Gaza Beaches. Not without the world watching!!

[Deep State Witch]

189. Agreed

They lost me about 2 months ago, with attacks on civilians. Cut them off. Military and intelligence support.

[TeamProg]

196. We ALL KNEW this was coming. Israel was NOT going to stop at just bombing a 'few hospitals', right? nt

[TeamProg]

200. It's not a "war" it is a MASSACRE. nt

[carpetbagger]

202. I'm getting there. It's like Dresden in slow motion.

And I'm fully aware in that comparison of antisemitic propaganda inflating the numbers, postwar inquiry determining on balance justification for the raids, etc. From an historical view I don't second guess the Allies, and I didn't expect anything other than a nightmare of an urban campaign. But at this point, it looks like the Dresden bombing going on into the third week or whatever.

[obamanut2012]

224. I consider Dresden a war crime by us, but it wasn't really one then

We have the International Law on war and civilians now because of the horrific civilian casualties in the UK, Europe, North Africa, and Asia. So, when folks (NOT YOU! I do not mean you), say to me -- on here, Reddit, IRL -- WHAT ABOUT DRESDEN WHAT ABOUT TOKYO??????? I say what I wrote in this post.

I am not disagreeing with you, just venting.

[carpetbagger]

243. And I didn't consider the opening Israeli response as such.

But this is like a third week of bombing in Dresden. (The original bombing was a few nights). Any legitimate target's been bombed, I'm sure there's Nazis down there still, I chose a timeframe before V-E Day on purpose. That's where I think this is at the moment.

Tokyo, and even Hiroshima, are more complex given the ultimate lack of testability of the cost of an invasion of Honshu.

[yankee87]

206. Same

Until Bibi goes, I can’t support the country anymore.

[TeamProg]

208. Slobodan had PLENTY of supporters as well. nt

[Aussie105]

212. Some of the detailed and convoluted reasoning seen here to justify

what Israel is doing, is amazing.

I'm not buying it.

"I stand with Chef Andrés and I believe him."

Me too.
He has been in enough conflict areas to know when his efforts are being targeted.

[obamanut2012]

226. Very well said

I am also sorry for the loss of Zomi. I know the Aussie government is very angry about her death.

[obamanut2012]

218. If you disagree, why not just answer?

Why are you getting all snarky and personal to the OP?

[agalisgv]

222. I get it

After the World Central Kitchen attacks, I feel the same. Tried to see both "sides" but the only moral "side" is to stop killing innocent people.

[uponit7771]

302. +1, The Chef has been in more than one conflict and knows when his people are being targeted

[Evolve Dammit]

233. same

[RANDYWILDMAN]

278. I stopped in the 90's

it became very clear Israel was more intent on expanding it's influence then on finding a peace with so many people who live next to and in Israel

*I went to the University of Arizona and the professors who taught the Arab/Israeli conflict classes were a former Israeli fighter pilot and a Journalist from Palestine who lived in Israel. Those classes have had the most fervent discussions I have ever could have imagined on this topic.

[Goddessartist]

306. Me too.

I've been following this conflict since 1992 or so. Right before the birth of my first child.