On secession

[nadinbrzezinski]

Some facts.

1.- these are mostly white...men who are angry that the well you knows won. O'Reilly screaming about the death of traditional America is a racially filled angst anthem for them.

2.- pay attention now, this is a small, but very vocal minority.

3.- they are like rabid badgers, you do not encourage this. Feel free to make fun of this.

4.- if these people actually took up arms against the United States to secede, we call this sedition. It is one of those few times when treason comes up, like for real. Sedition can be punished by death.

5.- petitions notwithstanding these are still tiny minorities of angry men.

6.- Yes, some are part of militias and might even go as far as taking up arms...that is their true danger, in a nation as polarized as ours...but they are still a minority.

Finally, civil wars are never started by happy majorities.

I consider those petitions a marker, and not necessarily funny. But to go from there to tell a state to leave...is just sad...there is another word, but sad will have to suffice.

[Drale]

1. I kind of want a single town to vote 100% to secede and

the militias to join forces with them because I want pictures of them dropping their weapons, shitting their pants and running when that first Abrams tank comes rolling down the street or the first marines deploy from some blackhawk helicopters to secure government buildings. I don't want anyone to die but just some ruined pants and some crying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. In your scenario

somebody will die.

[LeftInTX]

2. You are correct about the militia and taking up arms aspect

This has happened in the past, Texas in the 1990s.

Most of those groups are often engaged in activities that violate both federal laws and state laws.

But with many states moving so far to the right, I am concerned there may be more state tolerance for militias.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. I know, and that is the danger in them

I am the first to admit that the current environment is very dangerous, and could lead to some actual shooting, and even an actual civil war. There are gradations, and the fire across the plain is very real. By the way, Fire Across the Plain is a title of a book dealing with this in the 1990s, it is dated, but still worth the read if you are interested in the subject matter.

I am.

Been following this since the 1990s. I can say this, they have become more radicalized.

[oldhippie]

10. Tried to find the book ...

... but no joy. Can't find anything by that name with a search. Got an author or a link? Thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. my, I guess it is out of print

last year I could still find it. My copy is in storage,

[Melinda]

13. I think she means "A Force upon the Plain: The American Militia Movement and the Politics of Hate."

Of course I could be wrong. Apologies if I am.

http://www.amazon.com/Force-Upon-Plain-American-Movement/dp/0806129263/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1353957758&sr=8-6&keywords=Kenneth+S.+Stern

DU won't let me link - bummer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. You are correct

Thanks

[2naSalit]

7. There is

in Montana and Idaho for instance. They have had militias for some time and I'm sure that Wyoming is in the mix. Then there's the Dakotas, small population states where it's hard to keep an eye on what's going on. Texas gets the media attention because they have a large population and a lot of seditionists among them.

Also, a point to consider is that they see themselves as entitled to those public trust things like the public lands like BLM land, National Forests and parks. Only that stuff belongs to all of us so they can't have those.

And, as I recall, Jet Blue (an LDS owned, a large % by R$) airline offered free airfare to those wanting to defect... someone should remind them that it's "America, love it or LEAVE IT"... as so many of them are known to have said ad nauseam in the not so distant past.

[BlueCaliDem]

5. A good argument why the Patriot Act is necessary under this president.

I know that some Liberals are appalled by President Obama's signing of three key provisions of the Patriot Act in 2011, but considering the hate and bile spewed by corporate masters to the not-always-bright-Right, it's become an asset against terrorist, foreign and domestic.

Members of a Christian militia group called the Hutaree who, according to their indictments, have plotted mass murder of police officers and to overthrow the US government, but all of these people have been given access to lawyers (they have "lawyered up&quot , charged, and brought to court. An American civilian court. And they are, by definition of law, terrorists of the domestic kind.

The USA PATRIOT Act defines domestic terrorism in this way:

Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover "domestic," as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act "dangerous to human life" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.

I, for one, imho, am glad the Patriot Act is available to this president. The above is a case in point how important it is, and those fanatical sore-loser secessionists are another.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. There was no need to use the USA Patriot Act

for that expansion. The Patriot Act has way too many problems from a Habeas Corpus and Fourth Amendment perspective.

[BlueCaliDem]

8. Has that been proven to be so in court or since it was signed into law?

I'm not sure I've read about a single case where the Patriot Act created problems from a Habeas Corpus and 4th Amendment perspective. Perhaps there are, but I haven't read of any.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Well, it was used to ensnare a local city council

in Las Vegas.

[AlinPA]

12. I am curious how some of the red states would vote (if the states allowed this to go that far),

and whether some republican governors and legislatures would look the other way in case of violence against federal employees, Democrats or federal buildings and institutions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Why I sad early on

Lets put it to a vote. These votes require 80% + voter participation to be valid, with clear majorities. Under those conditions I will be shocked if we reach a 20% of the vote for secession.

Early on I even suggested that a UN supervised vote, like Chekoslovakia, was a way to shut this whole thing down. The problem is these people are vocal, and if you think fox viewers live in a bubble, that is nothing.

[AlinPA]

16. In a vote (if it even got that far) reality would set in. A few ads telling the people what

would happen should be enough to convince them that secession is foolish. The majority would be higher that 20% (you know there is always that near 40% that we can never understand !).

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. My 20% is for those voting for it

The reality is that reaps it will be as low as 10% for secession.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. It Reminds Me Of The Classical American Answer To Why There Is No Socialist Party Here

"Because the average American is fat, dumb, and happy." Of course it's a bit of a cliche but the average American is way too soft to take up arms. That's why over one half of potential recruits can't even pass the physical. It might be even higher.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Yeah, but civil wars are not started by majorities

Your average American, to add to this fat dumb and happy, is content. We are talking of a very small group, some of whom are not fit to run a mile...that's not the point. They are not happy. In fact, they are furious...and the ballot box is increasingly not going their way, at all.

These are the people who best case become "lone wolves" when they decide to act...worst case, join a cell. Modern civil wars are not fought by regular uniformed formations.

We are talking of very small numbers, but as they say...chickens coming to roost...these are the same demographic that have been cynically used by the CIA, among others, for right wind death squads abroad.

Though I will admit, if we went there, I would not be too shocked to see a few militias in column of two with a flag very early on.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. In All Candor, I Think The Secessionists Are A Very Small Minority.

And I suspect/hope the authorities are watching them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. No disagreement there

And your hope is actually quite well realized. The FBI and secret service have teams who's job at times is to go in, with deep cover.

[Bucky]

21. I am not dumb.

And goddammit, I'm trying to eat right. Leave me alone.

[Bucky]

20. You left something out. They are frivolous people. They are village clowns.

A pragmatic consideration of how a real secesh would work, even if (ludicrous, I know) abetted and cooperated with by the federal government, would be such an economically inefficient entanglement of rights, projects, and jurisdictions as to be utterly unworkable. It just can't happen. If anything, it would take the destruction of total war to even rip out the social, economic, and legal jurisdictions that presently make secession any more plausible than Santa Claus or Biblical literalism.

Anyone who seriously discusses splitting up the country is a jackass unworthy of your time or attention. In this description I include the "let 'em go" comedians at DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. The let 'me go crowd

Don't realize they are feeding the ego of a small minority...loud but small...that indeed does not realize what they are asking. This is not chekoslovakia after all. There the vote to split was in the high sixties, and people were still alive who remembered the two countries. A similar vote, here, I will be shocked if we reach 20%. There s simply no drive, period.

They are also applauding sedition.