There are/were DU'ers that were opposed to BOTH the Iraq war AND the Israeli response to Oct.7

[mdmc]

Last edited Wed Apr 17, 2024, 06:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Some of us, like Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders, had better ideas of what successful responses might look like.

If you opposed BOTH the Iraq war AND the current Israeli response to Oct.7, please check in here.

If you are willing to do so, please post actions that both countries could have taken to pursue peace and avoid war.

Thank you in advance for your consideration

[Hope22]

1. Ummm...

Answering this question opens responders up to attack here. I hope my response is not against DU rules. Just my observation.

[MuseRider]

2. I am opposed to killing.

Not helpful, I know, however that is my feeling and desire. No one is ever 100% right or wrong and killing people does not help. I have no experience to be able or to even think I was capable of answering this. I stand with peace and caring for others and would love to finish out my life without seeing pictures of the ravaged bodies of others.

This is not a topic I will respond to so if you disagree that is fine but I will not engage.

[Hope22]

4. Agree....

…I’m so old I remember peace talks!

[mdmc]

5. r

I agree with you

[Stargleamer]

3. Which Iraq war?

I opposed both of them as well as the Israeli response to October 7th

[mdmc]

7. r

The second one

[Mosby]

23. Why did you oppose gulf war 1?

[snowybirdie]

6. Checking in

[broiles]

8. Here.

[brooklynite]

9. What "better idea' has Dennis Kucinich ever had?

nb: I once met with him when he was running for OH-GOV. He didn't share any of them with me.

[Ping Tung]

10. I started opposing war when I was in the marines.

The escalation of the war in Vietnam had begun and it was obvious where it was heading. I was a few months away from getting out but I (and everybody else) still had to qualify as a killer on the rifle range.

It was a beautiful morning in the hills near the base. A bit chilly at first but it warmed up nicely. Meadowlarks were singing. At one point we had to lay down and pop away at silhouette targets of "enemies". We just relaxed and waited for the targets came up. When they did I banged away. They would pull the targets down plaster them with little round white indicators of there the bullets hit and pull them up so we could see the results. I was a good shot and my hits were pretty close together near the center of the silhouette.

For some reason, at that moment, I realized what those little white pieces of tape stood for. They meant that I could be sent off to Vietnam and ordered to kill people I didn't know, had nothing against, and might have become friends with. All so LBJ could burnish his Anti-Communist creds.

They asked me to re-enlist or extend my enlistment for a year. They offered me a promotion and the pick of stations to be assigned. I knew the Gunny Sgt as a pretty decent guy so I told him what I really thought about the war, LBJ, and the Marine Crotch (as we called it).
I ended up getting 30 days of mess duty which I suspected had something to do with my commentary. In late June of 1965 my enlistment was up and I was finally free.

I got a job and started college and joined in the anti-war demos. It took awhile to move beyond being against that war and becoming a pacifist against all war and violence. But, the more I saw the wars that happened since and studied the history of them (I got a b.a. in history) the more convinced I've become that most people around the world want no part of the madness created by "strong leaders" that has ended with millions of dead people who just wanted to live their lives.

“Patriots always talk of dying for their country but never of killing for their country.”

Bertrand Russell

[mdmc]

15. thanks for the post

[Elessar Zappa]

11. lol Dennis Kucinich with a good idea?

When was that exactly?

[Sky Jewels]

12. ...

[Eko]

13. Kick

[Crunchy Frog]

14. I opposed/oppose both.

Obviously Israel had to respond to the 10/7 attacks, but I don't think that it needed to be so total and indiscriminate, with such total destruction and so many civilian deaths, especially of children.

I do think that our response to Ukraine should have been much stronger. I think we should have given them absolutely everything short of nukes, starting 2 years ago.

[mdmc]

16. agreed

[question everything]

34. So which is it? The post with which you agree is different from your OP

[TheKentuckian]

39. It isn't "total" enough, they still have not surrendered

or released the hostages.

Hell, they still launch attacks so insufficient force has been used.

[Crunchy Frog]

49. Or maybe they could employ a response that was more effective and efficient,

while being less destructive and deadly to the civilian population.

Not every problem is best solved by a sledgehammer approach. It doesn't seem to be working to well in this case. Sometimes delicacy and precision work better.

[wnylib]

51. So what kind of force would you use for destroying underground tunnels?

[Jokerman]

17. Count me in

Military action is rarely, if ever, warranted.

War crimes should be vigorously prosecuted.

[PatSeg]

20. I remember when we were told

that an invasion of Iraq would be used as a last resort, but the Bush administration was already planning the invasion as they lied to us. Personally, I never believed them

I think every other resource, i.e. intelligence, special ops, diplomacy, etc., should be exhausted before boots on the ground is utilized. Unfortunately, a leader like Bush with daddy issues needed to be a wartime president to ease his feelings of inadequacy, plus he was easily manipulated by Cheney and military generals.

I would have hoped that as a species, we would have evolved beyond pointless, destructive wars, but unfortunately the bloodlust and greed still prevails.

[JI7]

18. How about Afghanistan

and this is a bad comparison because Israel was attacked by those they are attacking . You can disagree with what Israel is doing but it's not comparable to us attacking iraq .

[Danmel]

19. You could at least spell Israel correctly

I guess mass slaughter, gang rape, dismemberment of babies and kidnapping doesn't merit a response if the victims are Jewish.

[PatSeg]

22. I think the issue is the nature of that response

To respond to the mass slaughter of innocent civilians with an even greater slaughter of innocent civilians is hardly proportional or effective. It destabilizes the region and breeds more terrorists. It dehumanizes everyone involved.

"An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind" -Mahatma Gandhi

[TheKentuckian]

58. The required response is sufficient force to dictate an unconditional surrender or the utter annihilation of capacity

for any semblance of a repeat.

Evidently it still is not clear but there are but two ways out or they have decided on suicide.

I don't give a flying fuck about their cynical propaganda snuff porn, if they gave a damn about the "martyrs" they'd surrender and give up the hostages (if any, murderous, torturing, rapists gaebage) or at least stop hiding behind them.

The path to life, peace, and even prosperity and self determination can only start with unconditional surrender.
They went way too far this time and there have been too many times.

Not another rocket now, much less the depravity and hostage taking would be my stance.

[happybird]

31. I have kept my mouth shut but can't any longer

Just stop it. The cry of “guess it doesn’t matter to you because the victims were Jewish” is some weak sauce bullshit.

Those of us who care about humans, be they Black, White, Brown, Muslim, Jewish, North Korean, First Nation, Sikh, Ukrainian, Yoruba, Christian, Rohingya, Koori, Asian, whatever and whomever -HUMAN BEINGS- see the suffering the government of Israel and the right wing hardliners have meted out over the years with their policy of illegal Settlement, their overuse of force, the many violations of UN Security Council Resolutions. How food aid to Gaza is being blocked.
WTF.

Had any other country behaved in this manner, wouldn’t you be appalled? Didn’t Russia annexing the Crimean Peninsula piss you off?

Occupation eventually leads to violent uprising. Always. That certainly doesn’t excuse the actions of Hamas on Oct. 6. The methods of their uprising were disgusting and unacceptable. But did you really not see it coming? Do you really believe the Israeli government is a beacon of lily pure innocence, only attacked because of their race? Come on.

It’s not because they are Jewish. It’s because part of the government are assholes. Assholes exist in every race, culture, and religion, and sadly they often end up power. Those assholes have behaved in an unconscionable manner, for years, and those policies, actions, and disregard got their innocent civilians brutally attacked.

Defending that government, those actions and policies, because they are Jewish and therefore they can do no wrong (just so you know, that’s how it comes across) is extremely off-putting. Saying someone is a supporter of Hamas, or antisemite, because they disagree with how the Israeli government is handling the response is ridiculous. Not only ridiculous but also offensive.

This is an American-based, Democratic/left leaning political forum. It is not full of racist extremists who think Israel shouldn’t exist. It’s beyond tiresome to keep hearing that assumption every time someone has the audacity to expresses horror over the brutality of war.

The constant claim that Israel’s actions are nothing but defensive and correct, the inability to see or admit they are acting in an unacceptable manner, is what is losing support. It’s why Biden has been losing support from certain sectors. Not because those people hate Jews, but because they don’t want to be complicit in this ugly war, and they are sick of being made to feel they are somehow wrong and evil and racist when they express sympathy for the Palestinian civilians.

Been holding that in for months.
I’ll see my Humanist self out, thanks.
☮️

[BannonsLiver]

37. Glad you were finally able to get your feelings out about Jews and Israel.

[happybird]

41. Thanks

The world may recommence with it's turning now that I've gotten all that hatred off my chest.

[BannonsLiver]

47. Probably for the best.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. It is always so helpful when someone can 'splain anti-Semitism to Jews.

Were it not for them, how would we Jews ever know when something is anti-Semitic or even what anti-Semitism was, if they didn't take the time to 'splain it to us.

[Basic LA]

53. Outstanding statement, Happybird! Bravo!

Just having someone finally encapsulate these feelings--that so many here have been trying to express--is a joy to behold.

I'm with you right down the line. We'd be just as appalled at this blatant collective punishment if it were Mormons or Hari Krishnas targeting women and children.

This is DU, not KKK, dammit. Get over yourselves.

I just regret that I can only Rec this once!

[mdmc]

42. Fixed just for you Danmel

[cally]

21. Here

Both wars have led to further deaths, instability, and escalation of authoritarism. I do not understand why so many supported either Iraq war and why there is so little opposition to Netanyahu.

[LeftInTX]

24. As a citizen, there isn't much I can do to stop war.

Besides calling my congressman, president, writing letters, protesting on street corners or in public areas.

Other than that, I can't do much about it.

I certainly couldn't "control Bush"...

If a congressman or senator can't control war, then I certainly am not capable of writing public policy myself.

[Bettie]

25. I oppose both (well, opposed Iraq) and in a weird coincidence

both could have been avoided.

The 9/11 attack gave W (Cheney) his excuse and he was, um warned ahead of time, but chose to ignore it.

Same with Netanyahu and the warnings he received about an impending attack.

Taking action to avoid the precipitating attack (not ignoring the intel) could have changed a lot in both cases, but both W (Cheney) and Netanyahu benefited from the attacks and subsequent wars.

[NoRethugFriends]

26. Still won't correct the Israel spelling?

and Dennis had wonderful ideas like anti-choice. You could have picked a more sane example

And, do you think there should have been an Israeli response to Hamas?

[question everything]

29. This is how it starts. Diminish the identity and then the physical.

[question everything]

27. Might as well add Hitler, the take over of Europe, the concentration camps

So glad none of you were in the White House in 1941.

Oh, and what about the Revolutionary War? The Civil War?

[BannonsLiver]

38. The thousand year reich would be going strong had they been in the White House.

[LeonidPlanck]

28. Despite being a pacifist who doesn't have a problem

With punching a Nazi, I find it untenable to be required to describe my personal politics outright on social media.

You do you, but who in the world would ever find the killing of children anything other than a complete atrocity?

Let’s make this discussion less about politics, righteousness and faux morals and more about dignity.

Kids don’t need to die. Kids don’t need to die. Who the FUCK are we deciding to be?

[TheKentuckian]

40. They can lay down their arms, release any hostages they haven't murdered, and fucking surrender.

They could also cease and desist with cynically using their children as shields and pawns for propaganda if they insist on attacking Israel.

Don't like smoke then stop setting fires.

Israel is more patient and forgiving than I am. 10/7 would be the last attack, I wouldn't tolerate not another rocket.

[Lunabell]

30. Me! Me! Me!

WMD? I knew that was a load of bullshit and I/we were right. Going into Iraq, in my non-military opinion, was one of the reasons Afghanistan was a failure. They harbored Bin Laden. And also, why did they let Saudi Arabia off the hook?

War is a rich man's game.

[Tree Lady]

32. Total peacenik here

I think there are better ways of solving problems.

The speech about peace John Kennedy gave the summer before they killed him is how I feel.

[mike_c]

33. yes

[Pretty Fly]

35. Doesn't Kucinich support the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[BannonsLiver]

36. Dennis Kucinich is a Putinite.

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2024, 12:12 AM - Edit history (1)

[LeftInTX]

43. Dennis Kucinich left the Democratic Party. He was RFK Jr's campaign manager.

He's now running for congress as an Independent.

[Cha]

44. I was Against the War in Iraq.. We All were and Fuck GD Butchers in HAMAs

I never did like Dennis Kucinich and he Turned out to be a Fucking Idiot. RF jr's campaign manager

[edhopper]

46. I opposed the Ira1 War

And supported Israel after the Oct. 7 attack going into Gaza.
But I can no longer support what Netanyahu has done.

[ismnotwasm]

48. I see people aren't reading your full post

Last edited Thu Apr 18, 2024, 01:26 PM - Edit history (1)

War always sucks. We live in a patriarchal, hierarchical society that has largely decided, for as long as human have existed apparently, that killing each other is the correct response.

So let’s say, after the actions of Hamas, Israel took another route. Brought the leaders of Hamas to the negotiating table. Said something to the effect of. “We hear you, we see you, how can we resolve this”

The response of Hamas could have been, “oh yeah bruh, my bad, see we don't believe you have a right to the land you are on, and we want Israel not to exist at all”
And then Israel says “I feel you, my dude, but we are here, we are established, this is our historical homeland so to speak, we aren’t going anywhere, what else can we do besides not exist?”

Hamas, well hell, my friend, it looks like we are at an impasse, because eradicating Israel is our literal
stated reason for existing, I don’t know what to tell you 🤷 , also you guys suck, you stole our land, we want it back”
Israel “oh come on now, where are we to go? What else you got? Cause we are powerful enough to bomb you to infinity, and we will do so if necessary
Hamas “Idgaf Bro, youse needs to be gone, or we are gonna crawl up in your ass and do more violence. You see all those countries that are your neighbors? They all hate you. ALL OF THEM. A couple of them keep us well supplied in fact. You know what? bomb away, you just look like an asshole. The Gaza Strip is tiny. And it’s crowded. Bomb away—everyone else is going to hate you too.

Israel “We understand we are hated. We were slaughtered by the millions out of hatred. Israel is the result of that slaughter. This is nothing new. We even have a word for it “anti-semitism”

Hamas “hahaha, nice one. Let me put it this way. You will always live in fear. But hey, at least you got great burn centers out of it. We ain’t gonna stop until you are gone. Go negotiate with someone who gives a fuck.


And so on.

I respect anti-war folk. I despise anti-war disguised as anti-semitism. Right now? It’s difficult to tell them apart sometimes

[mdmc]

50. Thanks for your post

perhaps Israel has been commanded to exterminate the Palestinians.
Perhaps Hamas is tasked with a similar mission against the Jews.

In the OP I simply ask if DU'ers disagreed with the Israeli response.

I, for one, think Israel should have called on the international community for support and intelligence to ensure that Oct.7th attacks in the future are never so successful again.

There were smarter reactions to Oct. 7th that Israel could have taken

[edisdead]

52. Yet another attempt to divide DU.

Nope not gonna do it.

[LiberaBlueDem]

54. War is never an answer

We are all gonna die, better it is in peace, right?

[quaker bill]

55. I am opposed to all war

and the preparations for it.

[mdmc]

56. r

[Patton French]

57. Like those things are even close to comparable. NT

[mdmc]

59. I disagree