It's time for the US to STOP blocking Palestinian statehood at the UN

[Ken Burch]

It's the only chance Palestinians have for getting self-determination.

Negotiating with Bibi means being forced to give everything away and end up with a powerless, helpless statelet-on-sufferance...and Bibi's certain to go on being pm for years to come, so there's no hope whatsoever of an Israeli government that actually WANTS peace and justice.

It's the only way for the right thing to happen.

The U.S. HAS to get out of the way of the path of justice and hope.

[The Magistrate]

1. I Agree, Sir

To the extent, at least, that we should not try and halt establishment of a state of Palestine. It was, after all, the original intent of the United Nations that its Palestine Mandate be divided into two states, one Jewish and one Arab.

[The Magistrate]

3. It Might Be Better, Sir

If we did not turn this into a standard slanging match. There are people in power on both sides of this who want to kill; one side has more effective means at its disposal, but one does not get moral credit for being ill-equipped for one's chosen task. My reference was to the original intent of the world body, in 1947, thwarted in practice by actions of Arab powers as much as by Israel. That intention does, though, in my view, remain the best guideline; there ought to be a state of Arab Palestine. It should have boundaries that are recognized and fixed, and all the normal prerogatives of sovereignty, even if some of thse might be exercised in a manner some might find distasteful.

[Ken Burch]

4. You're right...I've now deleted that post.

My anger about the situation got the better of me.

[The Magistrate]

6. Much Appreciated, Sir

Thank you.

I understand; the situation makes me want to spit nails when I think on it....

[azurnoir]

12. the 'beauty' opart of this is that there is precious little the US can do to stop it

that much seems to have been accepted, so now there is pressure on Abbas to not take Israel to the ICC

[x2 vancouverite]

5. DURec

[Stewland]

7. Amen

It's become plain to see that the Zionist aim of total expansion in all of Palestine has become nearly accomplished. This is what happens when the US adopts Israel as the 51 state of the Union. Problem is that Karma can be such a hard teacher. One day in the not too distant future the Palestinians will have a majority and the Zionists will then have to become more fair minded. We should not be sending billions of taxpayer monies to Israel when we are broke. Let them stand on their own and then they may just embrace change.

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. No

it's time for the Palestinians (or at least for Fatah and Hamas as the elected representative parties of the Palestinians) to formally recognise Israel. There's no reason to expect that there should be any recognition of a Palestinian state until the Palestinians recognise Israel (within the pre-1967 borders, as a start to negotiations on future territorial swaps). As it is neither elected party of Palestinian government has formally recognised Israel.

[azurnoir]

10. PLO headed by Fatah recognized Israel nearly 2 decades ago on 9/9/93

and what have they gotten for it? an additional 240,000 Israeli settlers on their doorstep with many more to come

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant

.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

[Ken Burch]

11. Fatah recognized Israel in 1994. That put the recognition issue to rest.

n/t.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Hamas has not and still calls for the destruction of Israel

Only two nations recognize Israel, and Morsi could well screw that up as well.

[Ken Burch]

16. The way to keep Morsi from breaking ties is to stop screwing over the Pals.

You can't expect him(or anybody else in the Arab world)to see Israel as the greater victim in the overall situation. Nor can you expect them to recognize Israel WITHOUT a Palestinian state being created first. And what should matter is getting the recognition, not getting it first. It's just as good to get it second.

Also, it would help if Bibi would apologize for backing Mubarak to the bitter end. It does Israel no favors with anybody in the region to be seen, as it has allowed itself to be seen, as the last defender of the old regimes-just as it did them no favors to back the Shah to the last.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. Morsi showed his true colors recently

That anyone here would support him now is telling.

Israel is pragmatic if nothing else. Mubark kept his word and kept the border quiet. I cannot see that Morsi wants to do either, though he too continues to treat the people of Gaza like trash.

[Ken Burch]

21. If Israel's leaders really want to be pragmatic, they need to align themselves now

with the democratic forces in Arab politics...they need to stop saying the Arab Spring's a joke, and they need to stop acting as it it's a nightmare for Arab countries to get rid of the old regimes.

At the moment, Israel's rhetoric about internal Arab politics sounds like the Nixon position on Vietnam in 1972.

And I'm not supporting Morsi...I'm just making suggestions about how to deal with him...he's there and he's not going away anytime soon...the pragmatic thing is to accept that and to try to make the best of it.

[Scootaloo]

26. "he too continues to treat the people of Gaza like trash."

He's not the one blowing them up, though.

Little perspective for you, my anti-Arab friend.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. When Egypt ruled Gaza the residents were second class citizens at best

They even had special papers, not full Egyptian citizenship. Jordan was little better.,

He and his fellow muslim brotherhood members have been using the people of Gaza as proxies for years to attack Israel, sending guns and rockets, cheer leading attacks, and encouraging a one way fight. So yes, Morsi and his ilk are killing the people of Gaza in their proxy war with the Little Satan after shitting on them for years.

[Scootaloo]

47. Morsi is not blowing up Palestinians. Israel is.

You can keep trying to deflect from that single simple fact, but it's not going to make any difference. Egypt is not the one that drops bombs on Gaza.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. Are you saying there is no responsibility attributable to the outside agitators?

Those who arm and agitate the people of Gaza rather than give them food and medicine? Those who cheer lead them into actions with inevitable consequences?

Are you really going to support that kind of faux deniability?

[Scootaloo]

52. I'm saying Israel is the one killing Palestinians

I'm sorry, are you having trouble keeping up? You're trying so hard to make everything the fault of Morsi, but, again... he's not the one killing Palestinians.

You really seem to think it's up to everyone except Israel to take responsibility for what Israel does to the Palestinians. Which is kind of typical for an anti-Palestinian poster, but it doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. In what amounts to a form of national style self defense

This would be as if a neighbor who hated me gave his cousin a zip gun and convinced him it was his job to attack me, knowing full well I was much better armed. When the cousin attacked and I shot him down, he would then be calling for blood vengeance and call me a murderer with claims of disproportionate force. Its an analogy but it seems to fit.

The people of Gaza are being used in the most cruel way by the islamic brotherhood, Iran, etc. They are armed and incited to attack Israel by their "brothers" who know full well what the price will be.

Yes, Israel is pulling the trigger but surely those setting up the circumstances for the slaughter have some responsibility in a rational world. Your binary viewpoint is inappropriate.

[sellitman]

32. I thought Hamas was in control now?

Did I miss something?

[Ken Burch]

34. That didn't undo the PA recognition...it still stands.

It's not a point worth putting before all others. The creation of a real Palestinian state would lead to recognition...it might even happen simultaneously...at the very least, there'd clearly be a cessation of forcible hostilities.

Insisting on recognition of Israel BEFORE anything else changes only keeps the conflict going. It's not more important than peace.

[sellitman]

35. Go look at the Hamas Charter

Im sure you don't need links.

It calls specifically for Isreal's destruction.

That's a non starter.

Period.

[Ken Burch]

37. If the UN created a Palestinian state, Hamas wouldn't matter.

They wouldn't be able to claim any credit for it. It would be seen as the work of diplomacy, NOT the armed struggle.
It would have nothing to do with the rockets they fired OR the suicide bombings(or the human shields or any of the other insanity). All of that would be nullified.

Creating Palestine at the UN would make Hamas irrelevant at a stroke.

Attacking Gaza militarily can never have that effect, as the recent attacks just showed. Nor can keeping the people of Gaza penned in. If none of that has changed any of the things about Hamas we both object to, clearly none of that ever can. How many more years of things not changing, of the killing on both sides NOT stopping, has to go on before you can see that?

The fact that Hamas hasn't stopped is proof that the status quo you are defending has failed. You need to accept that if you really care about Israel-and to be willing to try something else.

Staying the course is the definition of insanity.

[sellitman]

42. You cannot disconnect Hamas from the equation by UN decree

They were voted in by the people.

The UN wouldn't change that.

A charter revision by Hamas and a change of tactics on both sides ate needed for peace and a Palestinian Country to emerge.

[Ken Burch]

44. The charter is just words. It should go...but they'd never be able to carry it out anyway.

In practical terms, it means no more than the platforms of some of the crazier Israeli political parties that call for the annexation of all the lands said to at one time have been part of "Greater Israel&quot not only the West Bank, but the territory of what is currently Jordan and, by some measures, land extending all the way to the Euphrates).

The key is getting the hostilities ended...and the best way to do that is to give the majority of the Palestinian people what they want(self-determination)and doing so in a way that gives the armed factions nothing to brag about.

The best way to HELP Hamas is to stay with the status quo, and to keep insisting that Hamas matters more than everything else. This simply boosts the egos of Hamas leaders and gives them prestige they otherwise wouldn't have.

[Arcanetrance]

9. I agree i think it would help force both sides to a true peace

It would force hamas to act like the government they pretend to be. It would also force Israel to negotiate a peace with a real internationally recognized country which means there will be less that can be swept under the rug

[libodem]

13. Those people need rescued

And saved. Draw a circle in the center with the holy spots and make that no man's land. Nobody gets to own it. Make it like a Hebrew, Mohammed, Jesus, Mecca, spot for religious tourists and scholars. People could only visit only visit on pilgrimage for respect to the history.. Put Zion on half and Palestine on the other. That Gaza strip is the least desirable tract of arid sandy waste land there is. They otta get another chunk that ain't so shitty.

I'm sick of them fighting over it. Play fair. Share. Comprise Dammit. It's the fucking holy land, you assholes. Don't treat it like a war zone.

Problem solved.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. I would remind everyone that under US law, such a status change would cause

cessation of much of funding the UN gets from the US.

Its black letter US law, this administration has previously acknowledged and followed that law. Without a change it will effectively move the US out of the UN, a teabagger dream.

[Ken Burch]

17. Why should the Palestinians HAVE to negotiate with the Israeli government

when all the Israeli government is going to do is take without giving-when we can assume that that government will never make any positive offers or proposals on this issue?

Isn't it time to admit that Bibi has blown it and shouldn't be allowed to stand in the way any longer?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Because the 1967 borders are as dead as Arafat

The reality is that Arafat and others turned down a better offer than they will get today. There was a window when it could have happened and it was pissed away by the PLO.

Have you considered a possible repeat of the 5 Day War? (I mean 5 not 6) I am sure you know what that means.

Back to the UN funding...it is something that the current administration cannot solve with a signing statement or executive order. With sequestration coming, the UN is already going to see a funding cut anyway.

[davidn3600]

22. Yep. You are correct.

Israel is never going to make that camp david offer again. They will never agree to go back to 1967.

[Ken Burch]

25. It's possible to have peace and the 1967 borders.

It can't be possible for Israel to have peace AND get everything Bibi demands.

The demands for keeping the major settlements would mean the West Bank couldn't be contiguous(a fact that, by itself would have to doom a Palestinian state to failure). The lack of even symbolic RoR would mean that no one would be able to control the fully justified rage of the Palestinian exiles(and that nothing could possibly make it up to them for never being allowed to come home, having to be refugees for the rest of their lives, AND not even getting compensation WITH acknowledgement and apology).

Bibi has never wanted peace...he just wants to humiliate Palestine and Palestinians...perhaps he even blames everybody IN Palestine for the death of his brother, even though that death was actually Idi Amin's fault.

[Scootaloo]

27. You didn't answer the question.

Why should Palestine negotiate? You answered with a reason they shouldn't negotiate.

[Selatius]

18. As long as Likud remains dominant inside Israel, there will be no peace process at all.

This is my fear.

I already know that Hamas is an intractable body with respect to Israel, so I won't give much lip service to that issue; however, I will say that Likud and Hamas feed upon the actions of each other, and nobody else outside those two seems to be able to achieve any traction.

If the Palestinians found themselves their version of Gandhi or even their own version of Nelson Mandela, he'd just as likely be killed by Israeli warplanes as by Hamas assassins from the inside, for if he were to succeed, both Likud and Hamas would be put permanently out of business.

[ReRe]

23. All I know is I want all the killing to stop. Yesterday.

Yes, all sides have done very bad things. Unforgivable things. But, this is the 21st effing century, for God's sake. Statehood for the Palestinians should be recognized. And the Arabs need to STFU about the Israel's right to exist business. Everyone has an effing right to live and breathe, to be happy, to not fear that a rocket or car bomb is going to kill them and their loved ones at any minute of the day or night. No, they might never forgive or like each other, but they can learn to exist without killing each other and each others children, can't they? CIVILIZATION must come BACK to the Middle East, once and for all. No "yeah, buts". Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I rest.

[Ken Burch]

24. Agreed. And nothing is more important than stopping the killing

as soon as possible. This is way no delay, for any reason, is acceptable.

[WinkyDink]

28. Then do you think the Palestinians will recognize Israel's statehood?

[Ken Burch]

29. It's certainly a hell of a lot more likely that they would than by making them

negotiate with an Israeli government that still doesn't even WANT a Palestinian state to ever come into existence, that still keeps expanding illegal settlements, and that still inflicts collective punishment on ALL Palestinians for the acts of the extremists, when it knows perfectly well that the non-extremists don't have any way of making the extremists stop.

You could just as well ask, btw, if Israel will then recognize Palestinian statehood or will keep its troops in place to stop it and preserve the inherently unjust status quo?

[Scootaloo]

48. 1994

Just a hunch.

When will the anti-Palestinains stop repeating the same ancient bullshit nonsense that they've been shitting out for the last forty years? That's what I want to know.

[sellitman]

30. Perhaps recognizing Israel's right to exist might jump start the cause?

Perhaps?

[Ken Burch]

31. Fatah did that in 1994.

It doesn't matter whether or not Israel is recognized before a Palestinian state is created. It's enough to have simultaneous recognition.

The recognition thing isn't the only issue here.

[sellitman]

33. We both know Fatah isn't running Gaza

Stop with these false equivalencies.

[Ken Burch]

36. It's not realistic to expect Hamas to recognize Israel BEFORE

the Israeli government changes any of its current privation policies towards Gaza. They have to get something first...at a bare minimum, they need to at least be allowed to have their fishermen be able to fish up to twenty miles from shore, not just three miles-there aren't any fish only three miles from shore.

And it would also help to let Gaza residents travel across Israel to the West Bank(after being checked for weapons at the border(in a HUMANE checkpoint situation where full medical aid, hydration and sanitary facilities were available for all). As long as they've been checked for guns and bombs, there's no reason not to let them take the direct route to the West Bank. Doing that would probably reduce the bad conditions in Gaza and, in doing to, reduce support for Hamas.

But the Israeli government won't even consider any of that...because all it cares about is making Gaza surrender...not in ending the war. And make no mistake, peace through getting the other side to surrender isn't a realistic objective for any of the factions here.

[sellitman]

39. The Israeli government already gave back Gaza as a start.

What did that get them? A sea of missiles aim at not military installations but at population centers..

No, it's time for Hamas to change its charter.

[Ken Burch]

40. The charter is a side issue.

Since Hamas won't ever have the ability to carry it out, it doesn't matter.

[sellitman]

43. Carry it out?

Aren't they doing that every day?

You like to talk about insanity?

[Ken Burch]

45. They aren't "doing it."

They're launching their rockets...but there's no chance that that is going to bring Israel's existence to an end. And you'll noticed that nobody ever gave them anything like the necessary amount of ordinance required to achieve that objective. Now, they have no way of getting enough weapons to manage it.

They need to stop launching the rockets, that's true...but it's not just that...both sides need to change, as you just said...it can't ALL be put on Hamas.

Small thought...perhaps it would stop the rockets(or at least some of them)if the Israelis apologized for driving out the peaceful Arab population of Huj...the town that once stood where Sderot existed. Doing that wouldn't harm Israeli security in the slightest. It might help further if they paid tribute to the former residents of Huj for their longstanding tradition, before being forced out, of living with the Jewish communities near them. It would be a small step, but it might make a big difference.

And if there's even a chance that it might make things easier for the residents of Sderot(people who, themselves, were not responsible for what was done to the former residents of Huj)why not give it a shot?

Plus, the Israelis might at least consider letting unarmed Gaza residents travel to the West Bank through Israel(maybe have special buses to drive them through). As long as they are unarmed, what harm could THAT do?

[chimpymustgo]

38. And it's time to stop calling that murderous, racist thug, by a nickname: "Bibi".

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/stop-calling-him-bibi.html

-edit-

A nickname humanizes a politician. It makes them seem more affectionate. Very few if any politicians are referred to by their nicknames. Do the media call Prime Minister Cameron David? Do they say, Francois, the president of France? They don't.

When Joe Biden repeatedly called Netanyahu Bibi last night in the debate, yes it bothers me, because our politicians are way too soft on Israel. But Biden is namedropping in that way because the mainstream press calls him that. And that's the real issue here: when you see discussions on TV or in the press, Netanyahu is often referred to by his nickname.

Stop and think if he had an English nickname. Let's call him Ricky-- and every time Netanyahu came up, he was called "Ricky." "Ricky says Israel wants peace in the Middle East.... Ricky says Israel is just protecting itself in Gaza... Ricky says let's be very careful of Iran developing a bomb." Do you see how absurd that sounds? No one would call him Ricky, and if they did it it would tone down what he really stands for and what he really is.

Does Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have a nickname? He may well have one for all we know. But the mainstream press wouldn't use it, because it would serve the same purpose, to humanize and minimize. When Ahmadinejad is a very bad man too.

-edit-

[Ken Burch]

41. OK...good point.

I won't call him "the B-word" anymore.

[chimpymustgo]

49. And thank you for posting this. K&R.

[patrice]

51. K&R !

[Nye Bevan]

53. How exactly would this increase the likelihood of peace and security? (nt)

[Ken Burch]

54. At least for the moment, it would keep both Hamas AND Likud from stopping the end of the war.

It would be comparable to filibuster reform...if the Senate Republiban were using rockets and settlements to prevent cloture.