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How the Rich Pay No Taxes Diagram (Original Post) Buttoneer Apr 20 OP
And the ever increasing edhopper Apr 20 #1
How long can they delay paying the financial institution? LakeVermilion Apr 20 #2
At 0% interest, no doubt. Igel Apr 20 #4
debt consolidation programme? Celerity Apr 21 #13
Actually, they kind of CAN dfelay it forever... almost Happy Hoosier Apr 22 #18
All the congress had to do is put a 10 percent jimfields33 Apr 20 #3
But a percentage of what? Happy Hoosier Apr 22 #19
Not quite accurate Bucky Apr 20 #5
The top rate is expected to revert to 39.6% EOY WarGamer Apr 20 #9
A CEO would usually get normal cash income as well and that is taxed. BSdetect Apr 20 #6
When you say "What they spend the borrowed money on is tax deductible (for the interest that is)" muriel_volestrangler Apr 20 #7
Yes, that interest is deductible. BSdetect Apr 21 #11
Which seems to be amazing, from the UK muriel_volestrangler Apr 22 #14
They buy property which can be be depreciated (Trump loves this) Happy Hoosier Apr 22 #20
All true... but somehow it never changes. WarGamer Apr 20 #8
Government gives money to his company Johonny Apr 20 #10
If the argument is that we have should have a wealth tax, You've got a long haul..... brooklynite Apr 21 #12
A wealth tax is handled differently all over Europe DFW Apr 22 #15
wealth taxes are somewhat farught, but.... Happy Hoosier Apr 22 #21
Slick s.o.b.s oasis Apr 22 #16
There needs to be a massive public education campaign Mysterian Apr 22 #17
And don't forget the expenses half of it all Johnny2X2X Apr 22 #22

Igel

(35,359 posts)
4. At 0% interest, no doubt.
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 03:30 PM
Apr 20

Of course, the stock wasn't taxed.

Pretty much every time I've had investment funds and outstanding loans the interest owed by me outstripped the interest owned to me.

This year, for various reasons, the percent tax I owed doubled. To an effective Federal income tax rate of 22%. Last year was the first year my rate went over 8%. Oh, for the days of having 6% as my effective rate. (What's pulling up my tax rate? I had some money from dividends. My mom died, her IRA had to be cashed out and taxed, and I'm in a DCP and couldn't shove it back into an IRA. Ignore that it's reduced in value through inflation rather significantly in the last 3 years.)

Oh--and my taxable income decreased by $2k from last year. (That's mostly because of a change in deductions. I'm now officially single and have no dependents.)

Happy Hoosier

(7,390 posts)
18. Actually, they kind of CAN dfelay it forever... almost
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 09:12 AM
Apr 22

What they do is roll over the loans.

The loans are usually NOT installment loans. They usually have a term where the whole amount is due at the end. But the interest rate is LOWER than the return on the value of the stocks (we'll get to that in a minute). So when the loan is due, they take out a NEW loan, at the new appreciated value of the assets (real estate, stock, etc). They use a chunk to pay the original loan, and live off the remainder, tax free. They can keep this up FOREVER and never pay taxes. And when the person dies, the estate can settle the remaing loan from whatever assets it wants. Most often these loans are taken out by a a business entitiy which is inheritied by the heirs, so the game can just keep on rolling.

THIS is why Trump wants to lie about the value of properties. He needs the higher assessments to collateralize the higher loans he must get to pay out older laons and finance his lifestyle. The value of the property MUST increase at a specific rate, even if he doesn;t want to sell. And it's why he wants real estate instead of stocks. The value of stuck is unambiguous. The value of real estate is subjective.... and it's a liars game.

jimfields33

(15,965 posts)
3. All the congress had to do is put a 10 percent
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 02:38 PM
Apr 20

minimum on everybody in the country must pay no matter what and go from there. That’s not a lot but it’s more than most pay. It’d be a nice start. Go to 25 percent for over 400K. We have to start somewhere and just talking isn’t working.

Happy Hoosier

(7,390 posts)
19. But a percentage of what?
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 09:14 AM
Apr 22

That's the point here. Loans are not "income." By living off of loans, they simply don't have any legal income to pay taxes on. That's why Liz Warren has proposed a "wealth tax." But that concept is complicated and has a lot of potnetial to hurt people lower on the scale, so it's tricky.

Bucky

(54,068 posts)
5. Not quite accurate
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 03:54 PM
Apr 20

No one pays 40% income tax.

A married couple with a single income household without dependents would pay $289,665 income tax and $31,182 in FICA taxes on a single million dollar salary.

Their take home would be $679,153, assuming they put nothing away toward retirement and had no other deductions, write-offs, allowances, or deferrals. Of course people with that kind of money would have plenty of tax limiting features in their returns.

But this would be a better country in better fiscal shape if we had a mandatory minimum rate of, say, 20% of incomes over seven figures. If all the bells and whistles could get them down to 200,000 clams, you'd get rid of a lot of the deficit.

Biden's rhetoric about billionaires averaging 8.2% effective tax rates is a little disingenuous, but the vast majority of them are not paying their fair share, often by hiding their income as unrealized profits in stocks. That sort-of-sleight of hand needs to be regulated, since it's hiding real national wealth from the country which that wealth depends on for survival, protection, and growth. It's literally shirking their social obligations and passing the burden on to future generations. It's immoral.

WarGamer

(12,484 posts)
9. The top rate is expected to revert to 39.6% EOY
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 07:01 PM
Apr 20

That's the top marginal rate... so the higher the income, the closer to 40% you get...

BSdetect

(8,999 posts)
6. A CEO would usually get normal cash income as well and that is taxed.
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 03:56 PM
Apr 20

They don't just get stock alone in most cases.

Borrowing against stock will be charged interest perhaps at a very slight reduced rate.

What they spend the borrowed money on is tax deductible (for the interest that is) but under certain conditions.

I don't think it becomes like it's income.

Of course I am not sure what loopholes probably exist. I guess quite a few.






muriel_volestrangler

(101,361 posts)
7. When you say "What they spend the borrowed money on is tax deductible (for the interest that is)"
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 06:43 PM
Apr 20

what does that mean?

Say, for instance, they borrowed a million with stock as collateral, and bought another house. And say the interest rate was 7% (realistic? I don't know). So they'd pay the bank $70,000 each year. What is the effect on their tax that is "deductible"?

(I'm British, so rules about tax aren't necessarily the same here)

muriel_volestrangler

(101,361 posts)
14. Which seems to be amazing, from the UK
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 03:17 AM
Apr 22

I'm going to spell this out, because as private taxpayers in the UK, we don't classify what we choose to spend our money on as "deductible" - that's a business term (if someone had to buy gas to undertake a journey for their job, that's the kind of thing that is deducted).

So, for instance, you're saying in the USA, with example figures:

I get a salary of $200,000 in a year
I have a loan of $1,000,000, on which I pay $70,000 interest in the year - I happen to have used the loan to have bought a second house for my private use
I subtract $70,000 from the $200,000 and say "my taxable income is only $130,000", and then the bands at which tax is paid are worked out from that figure.

Is that right? If I used loans to buy cars, or go on vacations, or bet on horse races, I could still subtract the interest I pay on them from my income to get the taxable amount?

Happy Hoosier

(7,390 posts)
20. They buy property which can be be depreciated (Trump loves this)
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 09:19 AM
Apr 22

and once they fully depreciate the property, they borrow against it to finance their lifestyle.

I have a enough money that I take advatage of a few of these things. It's a pretty scammy.

I have a cash value life life insurance policy. The cash value grows "tax free" until pay out. BUT... you can borrow against the full value without any taxes. And YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY DOWN THE LOAN. The loan must be satisfied at pay out, but most of these are "wash loans" meaning the loan interest rate is equal to the annual increase in policy value. It's basically free money. Gonna use it to buy a car without a car loan.

Kinda scammy, but 100% legal.

WarGamer

(12,484 posts)
8. All true... but somehow it never changes.
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 06:59 PM
Apr 20

For some reason, politicians bleat about raising income tax or corporate taxes...

But the wealthy laugh and stuff their pillow cases with more cash. Other than Sanders and Warren... show me a politician who is willing to change this.

Copying this image... will save me time explaining the EXACT same thing.

Johonny

(20,889 posts)
10. Government gives money to his company
Sat Apr 20, 2024, 08:08 PM
Apr 20

In form of grants and contracts, so not only don't they pay taxes. They live off our taxes.

brooklynite

(94,729 posts)
12. If the argument is that we have should have a wealth tax, You've got a long haul.....
Sun Apr 21, 2024, 08:43 PM
Apr 21

In 2021-2023, my portfolio dropped by 10%. If I had paid a tax on the paper value of those holdings, do I get a credit if the value drops?

I'll add that, in NO year have we ever paid "no tax".

DFW

(54,437 posts)
15. A wealth tax is handled differently all over Europe
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 07:42 AM
Apr 22

In France, it used to kick in at 3 million francs, or about $500,000. When the socialists took power in 1981, it was enforced except in one area. The father of the finance minister, an ardent socialist, was a dealer in fine art, so, quite coincidentally, of course, fine art was excepted. Bienvenu en France. There is one in the Netherlands as well, but I don't know what the exceptions are there. It is unconstitutional in Germany. so there is not and will not be one there. It seems that back in the 1930s, a certain ethnic group was singled out for special taxes, whether that which was being newly taxed had already been taxed or not. Therefore, the postwar German constitution expressly forbade double taxation. When the Social Demovrats tried to enact a wealth tax anyway, it was immediately labled a "Neidsteuer," or a "jealousy tax," as it would tax, again, wealth that had already been taxed ("we have decided that you still have too much left over, and we want it" ). It was brought before the Supreme Court of Germany, who in essence, said, "can't you read? You cannot tax money that has already been taxed once!" They pointed to the article forbidding double taxation, and said the question was long ago settled.

I see a huge problem with taxing unrealized gains for the very reason you point out. If the value of a portfolio drops to a level below what was taxed the year before, then the taxing authority would be obligated to return the tax previously collected on the previously higher valuation. The accounting and oversight would be a nightmare. The setting up of offshore holding companies would balloon. If the government were serious about getting a slice of that pie, they should just enact a law forbidding the owner of securities that held large unrealized gains from borrowing against them except to build a residence they will move into when completed, or else to open a business that will have paid employees, at least half of whom must be located within the United States.

Happy Hoosier

(7,390 posts)
21. wealth taxes are somewhat farught, but....
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 09:20 AM
Apr 22

... there has to be a way to close these loopholes.

I'm not rich like you, but I am top 10%. And even I recognize that "good deals" that make it MUCH easier for people like to me to make a buck. I bet you do too.

Mysterian

(4,594 posts)
17. There needs to be a massive public education campaign
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 08:44 AM
Apr 22

to educate Americans why capitalism must be strongly regulated. The rich use their billions to brainwash gullible people to support fascism, under which the wealthy will be kings and princes, unfettered by rules of democracy, and all workers will be serfs.

Johnny2X2X

(19,114 posts)
22. And don't forget the expenses half of it all
Mon Apr 22, 2024, 09:27 AM
Apr 22

Trump's entire life is expensed to his corporations. His homes are corporate expenses, his jet is a corporate expense. All of his meals, all of his clothes, it's all corporate expenses. Heck, one of his kids' homes was designated as a park so they pay no taxes on it. The loopholes they take advantage of are infinite.

Regular people have this idea that the rich have $750 Million in a bank account, very few do, every $million is tied up in some device that allows it to grow tax free. It becomes a shell game and it's all beyond what is available to regular working people.

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