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[Earth-shine]

1. Such simplictic analysis weakens any arguments you make, here and elsewhere.

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2024, 10:26 PM - Edit history (1)

One thing most of us agree upon is that the situation is ancient and complex.

Your analysis reduces to Israel can do no wrong. Sad how far the hate goes, eh?

[TexasDem69]

2. The situation is complex

But the analysis is accurate

[Earth-shine]

4. There are many who would disagree with you. That includes me.

I have no patience for absolutism.

[Ponietz]

29. Seems every issue devolves into ones and zeroes on the internet

[Earth-shine]

31. Ha ha. Now that's a matter of absolute truth!

[Eko]

5. Hamas didnt even gain power until 2007.

One would have to ignore decades to come to that conclusion. This is indeed ancient and complex.

[ripcord]

12. See post number 8

[Eko]

19. Yes, that said "Palestinian attempts"

not Hamas. This started well before Hamas was even an origination. That in no way makes Hamas not terrorists and not pieces of shit so please don't infer that I don't think they are. My point stands, this is a problem that predates Hamas, has been going on for a while and is not that simplistic. For a bit of history Hamas was formed in response to Israel occupation. Does that make them good in any way? No. The reason I have to say that is because pointing out history can lead some people to infer that you are against what they are for, for some reason. Why did Israel do the occupation?, the 6 day war. See, this gets pretty complicated and should be addressed in such a way other than using slogans.

[ripcord]

21. Probably more about the Yom Kippur war

Remember the Palestinians attacked Israel as soon as their announced the formation of their nation, their attacks have been going on that long.

[Eko]

26. Yes, the formation of a nation that took their land.

I cant imagine why they would be upset. If someone took my land I would be upset as well, you? Once again this does not forgive Hamas for what they did but the question still stands. Would you be upset if someone took your land?

[ripcord]

28. Maybe I haven't studied my history enough but I thought it was a British protectorate?

If so the land wasn't theirs, add to that the UN mandate and it clearly puts the Palestinians in the wrong. They could have had their homeland any number of times but they wouldn't accept anything that left Jews in the M.E., they wanted them either dead or driven out they didn't particularly care which. You have to admit that Israel hasn't called for the extermination of the Palestinians while Palestinians has called for extermination of the Jews repeatedly. Remember the reason Abbas won't hold elections, because he knows Hamas will win they have that much support.

[Eko]

33. Huh.

Why wasn't the land theirs? Did they not live there? What you are saying is that an outside power (Of which the Palestinians tried to declare independence and statehood with and were rejected) decided that a population of 6% could immigrate more of them and then create a state while the locals who lived there and were the majority could not.
"On May 15, 1948, Israel declared independence, thus beginning the Israeli-Arab War, with five Arab states fighting against the creation of the state.
Palestinians were forced off their lands or fled en masse, marking the first large-scale exodus in what would become a decades long battle over land ownership, according to the United Nations." I'm sorry, but if you come in and create a nation in a region that is against that then a negative reaction is to be expected. Yes, the Arabs attacked Israel when they declared Independence, what would you expect them to do? It was the formation of a new country where it had been primarily Arabs and now was not governed by Arabs who were the majority, it was a huge land grab and took land from Arabs. No one should be upset. Is that what you think?

[OrangeJoe]

32. Thanks to Bibi and Likud

Likud funded Hamas as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority. They wanted the Hamas crazies to delegitimize the Palestinians and judging by many of the comments here and elsewhere, it worked. Now wait a minute you say, that sounds like Cuckoo conspiracy nonsense. Let's see what the Israeli papers have to say about it:

"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group." https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel’s regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday’s Likud faction meeting said."
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082

"“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"

Link to tweet

?lang=en

While our tax dollars are being used to bomb Palestinian children, Bibi directed dollars to murder Israelis.

[TeamProg]

36. Yep. nt

[Aussie105]

3. Easy to turn this upside down.

The hate for the Israelis (note: not saying Jews) stems from decades of mistreatment of the Palestinians.

See how easy it is to shift blame?

A lot of people try to make this a war between fine upstanding Jewish-faith peoples and evil Middle Eastern non-Christians.
It is not, it is a violent dispute centred around territorial land claims and possession, dressing it up as a good guy versus bad guy religious war is just blowing dust up peoples' nostrils.

(The original post is either a simplistic view from a simple one-eyed person, or a Troll thread.)

[ripcord]

8. But people so often ignore repeated Palestinian attempts at genocide

5 times their militia joined with the all armies of the Arab nations with the announced goal of driving the Jews into the sea. Then there are all the Hamas terror attacks with men, women and even children setting off the suicide vests from the designer DuPont in cafes and buses to make sure the damage to civilians was as bad as possible. We also have to remember that Palestine could have had their homeland any number of times but turned it down repeatedly because it still left Jews alive in the M.E.

[wnylib]

23. The physical barriers, check points, and restrictions of movement

set up by Israel are a result of nonstop terrorism from Palestinians against Israel since the beginning of the modern Israeli state. Tends to make a country hyper vigilant to terrorist possibilities. Also tends to drive a government and its people farther to the right in self defense.

The sworn Palestinian goal of eliminating Israel and Jews from the map was the Palestinian response to the UN offer two states in the former British Mandate. Palestinians will accept nothing less than the total land area of the British Mandate.

See how easy it is to get perspective from history? But, don't take my word for it. See what terrorism expert Malcolm Nance has to say about it in the following video.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/132220269

[DBoon]

6. some people go to great lengths to morally justify deaths of tenths of thousands of civilians

[Earth-shine]

9. The OP has gone through very small lengths, and the writer thinks we should just believe them.

It's lazy writing designed to stir the shit today.

[AnrothElf]

7. Hard to even call Hamas a "government".

They BRAG about using Gazans as human shields and Gaza as nothing more than a place to launch rockets from, in furtherance of their explicit and LOUD goal of exterminating 'the Jews'. They're PROUD of their genocidal aims, because it's all for the cause of the Islamic State -- the so-called Caliphate. They want to roll shit back to the Ottoman Empire, and a secular, democratic Israel is in the way of their rabid, fanatical, religious fever-dream.

There was an election almost 20 years ago, and Gazans chose Hamas over the PA. That's what happened. That's how we got here.

Where were the Gazans during the Arab Spring?

*crickets*

[ripcord]

11. Can you explain to me why Hamas isn't a government but Fatah is?

Both were elected by popular vote, both haven't held elections in almost 20 years but both have stayed in power.

[AnrothElf]

14. Governments y'know... GOVERN. Hamas doesn't.

They're a terrorist organization. In their own words their own leaders have repeatedly stated over the course of almost 2 decades that their reason for being in Gaza is to destroy Israel. That's it. That's their raison d'être.

Hence, they use Gazans as human shields. They steal their food, medicine and other, usually Western relief. The UNRWA is corrupt to the core, riddled with rapist, murdering Hamas agents like the doctor and teacher who held Israeli captives.

Egypt could let relief through, today, if they wanted. They do nothing, because they know: Hamas is not a government. It doesn't GOVERN. Hamas would steal whatever "relief" they let through, and Hamas doesn't need help getting arms. It has Iran and Hezbollah and, and, and for that.

Hamas' leaders don't live in Gaza! Are you fucking kidding me? Have you seen the place? They live in luxury elsewhere. And use consular facilities to move around and collect big checks from other Islamofascist fuckstains.

[ripcord]

17. But they haven't given up power, they are in charge

We have had plenty of governments worse than Hamas like Pol Pots government in Cambodia, being a good and caring for the people is not a requirement for being a government.

[AnrothElf]

18. I'm not going to tangent with you. Let's stay on topic, it's complicated enough as it is.

I won't engage in whatabouts.

[Aussie105]

15. The great thing is that the history of the current situation is so complex,

that a selective history reading can be used to support any position on the current situation.

Personally I don't care about the history.
I would like the current situation to be resolved peacefully without further civilian deaths.

[TheFarseer]

10. It's hard to imagine what rational actors

thought would be accomplished by the October 7 attacks. Did they think it might start a general war where all the Muslim countries in the area would attack Israel and the US would stand aside or be too slow to act?

Did they think it would draw attention to their plight and it would somehow be positive attention that would get them some concessions?

Did they think the Israelis would trade hostages for something?

Or do they want to kill Israelis more than they want to live?

Hard to say which one is right? None of those choices make much sense to me but it’s all I can come up with.

[leftstreet]

13. LOL n/t

[msongs]

16. each party is responsible for its own behavior and choices. he made me do it? ummmm no nt

[LuvLoogie]

20. Gaza isn't a state

[ripcord]

22. Neither is Palestine

[LuvLoogie]

24. And the West Bank isn't Israel

[ripcord]

25. I can tell from all the Palestinian terrorists they are finding there

[LuvLoogie]

27. I mean how can you tell the terrorists?

It's not like they're in uniform driving bulldozers

[TeamProg]

35. Exactly.

[Diraven]

30. Don't feed the troll

They're just trying to start an argument.

[TeamProg]

34. Hmmm, if my neighbors KEPT ANNEXING my LAND and took it over, I'd probably fight back any way I could.