This is quite a long article, but I hope you all will read it.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

Robert Kagan writes eloquently and accurately about the historical roots that we face in this year's election. The link will give you the whole article as a gift. There is no paywall. I'm including a couple of paragraphs to show what he's talking about.

https://wapo.st/3QonhLY

For some time, it was possible to believe that many voters could not see the threat Donald Trump poses to America’s liberal democracy, and many still profess not to see it. But now, a little more than six months from Election Day, it’s hard to believe they don’t. The warning signs are clear enough. Trump himself offers a new reason for concern almost every day. People may choose to ignore the warnings or persuade themselves not to worry, but they can see what we all see, and that should be enough.

How to explain their willingness to support Trump despite the risk he poses to our system of government? The answer is not rapidly changing technology, widening inequality, unsuccessful foreign policies or unrest on university campuses but something much deeper and more fundamental. It is what the Founders worried about and Abraham Lincoln warned about: a decline in what they called public virtue. They feared it would be hard to sustain popular support for the revolutionary liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence, and they worried that the virtuous love of liberty and equality would in time give way to narrow, selfish interest. Although James Madison and his colleagues hoped to establish a government on the solid foundation of self-interest, even Madison acknowledged that no government by the people could be sustained if the people themselves did not have sufficient dedication to the liberal ideals of the Declaration. The people had to love liberty, not just for themselves but as an abstract ideal for all humans.

Much more at link.

[Think. Again.]

1. Thank you for posting this....

...I'm intrigued and will read the entire article in a more relaxed moment this evening.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. That's a great idea! He is very thorough.

Once I started reading it, I knew I had to post it. This is vital information.

[Ligyron]

49. This part in particular jumped right out and grabbed my attention.

Speaking about the Civil War and those among us who, for whatever reason, never fully embraced the principles of a liberal democracy

"That rebellion never ended. It has been weakened, suppressed — sometimes by force — and driven underground, but it has never gone away."

Great article California Peggy and thanks for bringing it to our attention and gifting us it's contents,

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

2. There is a new documentary out called "Bad Faith" that traces some of the root causes of this mess

Koch bros and others inciting evangelicals to vote on religion when they really wanted tax breaks for their companies...politicians pretending to be religious for other motives... economic, authoritarianism

[Farmer-Rick]

46. Yeah, I think one thing is missing

From the essay. It's that filthy-rich Americans are funding the end of democracy.

I kept thinking why have Trump voters given up on liberty and democracy. Why was slavery so hard to be rid of in a country whose government is founded on equality? Why aren't we teaching a love of democracy in schools?

Because equality and democracy are the opposite of capitalism. Capitalism is based on inequality.

Your hard work and talents don't really count unless you can capitalize on them. You can be the smartest most talented person in the world but if you can't gain some amount of capital from your abilities, you will go hungry in a ditch somewhere under capitalism.

In capitalism, wealth builds wealth. Wealth isn't evenly distributed. It's hoarded, inherited and fought over by everyone.
Those born into wealth can grab up all the resources and push their political agendas. The lucky few who stumble blindly into a new technology, a new food, a new product can gain capital then hoard it from everyone else.

Eventually in capitalism, there will be just one or a small handful of filthy-rich people, while everyone else is poor and starving. Uncontrolled capitalism always ends up concentrating wealth on a few lucky people. That is the opposite of equality and democracy.

And the filthy-rich use all sorts of manipulation and cons to convince us all that democracy and equality are bad, And capitalism is good.

They have convinced a lot of voters that hoarding money and concentrating it in just a few people's hands is freedom, when it's just the opposite.

[Celerity]

62. Robert Kagan is an American neoconservative scholar. He is a critic of U.S. foreign policy and a leading advocate of

liberal interventionism. A co-founder of the neoconservative Project for the New American Century, he is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kagan

snip

In 1983, Kagan was foreign policy advisor to New York Republican Representative Jack Kemp. From 1984 to 1986, under the administration of Ronald Reagan, he was a speechwriter for Secretary of State George P. Shultz and a member of the United States Department of State Policy Planning Staff. From 1986 to 1988, he served in the State Department Bureau of Inter-American Affairs.

In 1997, Kagan co-founded the now-defunct neoconservative think tank Project for the New American Century with William Kristol. Through the work of the PNAC, from 1998, Kagan was an early and strong advocate of military action in Syria, Iran, Afghanistan as well as to "remove Mr. Hussein and his regime from power." After the 1998 bombing of Iraq was announced Kagan said "bombing Iraq isn't enough" and called on Clinton to send ground troops to Iraq.

In January 2002, Kagan and Kristol falsely claimed in a Weekly Standard article that Saddam Hussein was supporting the "existence of a terrorist training camp in Iraq, complete with a Boeing 707 for practicing hijackings, and filled with non-Iraqi radical Muslims". Kagan and Kristol further alleged that the September 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence official several months before the attacks. The allegations were later shown to be false.

snip

During the 2008 presidential campaign he served as foreign policy advisor to John McCain, the Republican Party's nominee for President of the United States in the 2008 election. Since 2011, Kagan has also served on the 25-member State Department's Foreign Affairs Policy Board under Secretaries of State Hillary Clinton and John Kerry. Andrew Bacevich referred to Kagan as "the chief neoconservative foreign-policy theorist" in reviewing Kagan's book The Return of History and the End of Dreams.

snip

[Farmer-Rick]

63. I had no idea the writer was a Neocon

No wonder he left out the economic reason for this slide into dictatorship. As a Neocon he loves economic inequality and "free" markets.

Thanks for the info on this writer.

And now he's worried about losing American democracy? Maybe the time to worry was when he was promoting economic inequality.

[Celerity]

64. the Kagan family are/were a nest of neocon war hawks

Robert Kagan neocon
Donald Kagan (father of Robert and Fred) neocon
Frederick Kagan (brother of Robert) neocon
Kimberly Kagan (wife of Fred) neocon

plus

Victoria 'Fuck the EU' Nuland (wife of Robert) not really an overt neocon IMHO

[Farmer-Rick]

65. Thanks for the info.

Good to know the writers background. It sometimes explains what is left out.

[senseandsensibility]

3. I have only read the part you posted so far

but one of the things that struck me is that most trump voters are not voting for him out of self interest, or if they are, they are mistaken. Their profound ignorance of what a free democracy has given them is a real problem.

[lastlib]

21. I have long had a nagging fear.....

that a lot of voters don't understand the historical meaning of the phrase "liberal democracy." The will associate it with the pejorative idea of "liberal," without realizing that it is in fact a concept based on those principles espoused in the Declaration of Independence, and in the concepts of positive government andvanced since then; extending equality to women and minorities, workers' rights, etc. I don't know how to bridge that gap in their understanding, but it is essential that we do so, quickly.

[senseandsensibility]

23. Exactly

Last edited Mon Apr 29, 2024, 02:52 PM - Edit history (1)

and it might go even deeper than that. For instance, many don't understand that the government benefits they rely on (such as Medicare) were initiated by Democrats and depend on a true democracy to continue. That's just one example of course, but remember the "Keep the Govt. out of my Medicare!" signs? The entire idea of what a representative government can do for people has been demonized and not taught for decades now.

[stopdiggin]

52. +1. we have been spoon fed a steady diet of demonizing and distrust

for 'government' itself - without any countervailing message (which is clearly available) about the good that can transpire - providing fairness, equity, safety - and enhancing lives.

[senseandsensibility]

59. Yes , I'm afraid that this is another thing that our side

should be discussing more. Of course the corporate media does not make it easy for them, but even inserting short factual comments into discussions could help. For instance, do you really want to go back to the days before social security and medicare? When old people were just left to die? That's what our taxes pay for. Some of these things need to be broken down to their simplest terms to penetrate.

[eppur_se_muova]

4. A worthwhile read, even if it mostly confirmed my worst fears. nt

[malaise]

6. Good read

Thank you my dear CaliforniaPeggy

[cachukis]

7. Well worth the read. American social history

in a nutshell.

[StClone]

8. Thanks! It is the ignorant and lazy led by the Pied Piper Elites

What do they want? They don't think about the consequences of it. The article notes they don't care for the Founding Fathers' ideas because it means thinking, caring, and sharing power. Even the smart Cons will vote for Trump because they get what they want. Which is kind of dealing with baby ideals and they don't care.

[TygrBright]

9. Alas, only the first paragraph is visible at the link. n/t

[malthaussen]

11. You sure? I just read it, no problem. n/t

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. I'm so sorry, my dear TygrBright! All of it shows up when I click it. It's a gift link and it all should be there.nt

[wnylib]

18. When I tried the OP link, I got a pop up

that blocked the article. It required either a paid subscription or free registration. I don't want either, so I could not read beyond the couple paragraphs prior to the pop up. I tried twice. Same thing each time.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

36. It seems like it's blocked, but it's not.

You can close the subscription pop up.

[wnylib]

40. No, there was no way to close it. But I was able to read the article via

the archived link provided in another post.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

41. Yes, I that cache link works. I trick! But you really

can close the pop up & it's quicker & easier (for future reference, when you have to create the cache link yourself.)

I've tried it on three different browsers. Works every time. The pop up has a little, inconspicuous x in the upper right corner.

"Already have an account? Sign *x* in
A Post subscriber gave you free access to this article."

You jut have to click that tiny x.

[wnylib]

42. I expected that there would be an x, searched for one, but, none was visible on my phone screen.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

43. That's super perplexing. It *is* very small.

They want to get us to subscribe!

Do you see the words I quoted? The x is intermingled with the words, at the very top right, and just as I wrote it out.

Anyway, there are often unexplained glitches online! Sorry I couldn't help for future use.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

44. Oh, I did just notice what might be the problem!

The text in the box with the x can be scrolled up & down. If the top line isn't what I wrote, you can scroll the text back up to make that line, including the x, visible.

I lost the x at one time while experimenting.Then realized I'd scrolled down & hidden it.

You might not want to bother trying it again, but maybe this will help others.

[orleans]

16. hey, try this link

https://archive.is/qj0I4

[TygrBright]

17. That works! Thank you so much, orleans. n/t

[orleans]

20. you're welcome & in the future

if you're having a problem with a linked article then i recommend going to this link
https://archive.is/

and putting your article link in the red box where it says "my url is alive and i want to archive the content"

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

37. Cool! Thanks for that!

I've been lamenting the loss of cached article access in Google search. This involves a little work, but does the job.

[Amaryllis]

51. Works! Thank you

[lastlib]

22. I couldn't get it either. n/t

Just one paragraph.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

25. Orleans has a link the post right above yours that should work. Give it a try! His post #20.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

35. But you can click through. They are asking

you to subscribe, but say the article is free to you thanks to the person who shared it. CalPeg in our case. Just close that box and you can access the entire article.

[scipan]

61. I had this problem too: only the 1st para, no popup or gift notice

I clicked on the "listen to the article" option and got it that way.

Not to get too ad hominem, but Robert Kagan is a neoconservative and member of the Project for a New American Century. His wife is Victoria Nuland. Those who remember GWB will be interested. To me, I just think it's funny what strange bedfellows we have lately.

I really liked this article. it gets to the heart of it: individual rights vs. racism, which is our original sin and corrupts everything else, especially Christian nationalism.

[malthaussen]

10. It's a good summary.

I would say that I don't think there are enough anti-liberals to carry out the Revolution. Mr Trump was soundly beaten in 2020, there is no reason to think he has gained support since then, and many reasons to believe he has lost support. And the continual victories of the Democrats in the various elections since then suggest that the RW nut jobs just don't have the numbers to pull off their dream.

I also have no fear that the "bedlam" and "bloodbath" Mr Trump and the radicals call for will occur. For one thing, the great majority of Mr Trump's supporters are cowardly braggarts, never to be found when the rubber hits the road. He has begged and pleaded for people to show up to protest his criminal trials, and is constantly disappointed. There is surely a core group who would love to engage in violence, if they could be safe doing so, but I don't think there's much evidence of people willing to risk their precious skins over the upcoming election result.

And all of this presumes that DJT will be alive, free, and on the ballot six months down the road. I'd like to know the over/under on that, because really, the kind of pressure he's going to be operating under as his trials and tribulations mount up over the summer have killed more than one man, and DJT isn't in the best of health to begin with. And I'd be perfectly happy with such a result, because Bog knows I want to stop hearing that man's name.

-- Mal

[CaliforniaPeggy]

14. I hope you're right, my dear malthaussen! nt

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

39. But it only takes a small number of his

loyal, and well-trained (but not well-regulated) militias to complete the coup. And many so-called law enforcement officers are actually Trumpsters who will not repel the militias but join them.

Also, Republicans have scared off many elections officials & installed Trump loyalists who will cooperate with the coup plans instead of standing up to them as the 2020 officials did.

Trump & his cult have always done whatever they accuse their opponents of doing, so I expect all sorts of election interference--vote-rigging & suppression and other cheating operations.

I hope you're right & I'm wrong. But I'm afraid they have loads of dirty tricks up their sleeves, including their corrupt SCOTUS who seem on the verge of giving Trump a license to kill.

[malthaussen]

54. "Well-trained," forsooth?

These Sofa Seals clowns couldn't organize a two-car funeral. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that any coherent, armed and dangerous force exists to pull off a coup. If such existed, where were they in 2021?

-- Mal

[bdamomma]

13. Thank you

California Peggy for posting. I did read the article.

My only hope is that we fight against this in our votes this November.

We do not need to go down this way not after 200 years. We do not want to crash and burn, and especially not with likes of a psychopath. We do not need to play into our adversaries' plots.

[LeftInTX]

15. Bookmarking to read later!

[erronis]

19. I'm working through the whole article and am amazed that so many Democrats signed the Southern Manifesto

And a great many did not. Leaders of the slaveholding South called the Declaration “a most pernicious falsehood.” South Carolina’s John C. Calhoun called the very idea of equal rights a “false doctrine.” They believed in democracy, but only if it was an exclusively White democracy. When democracy turned against them in 1860, they rebelled and sought an exit from the system. That rebellion never ended. It has been weakened, suppressed — sometimes by force — and driven underground, but it has never gone away. Although the South was militarily defeated and deprived of its special advantages in the Constitution, its hostility to the Founders’ liberalism did not abate. As Southern writer W.J. Cash observed in 1941, if the war had “smashed the southern world,” it had nevertheless “left the essential southern mind and will … entirely unshaken” and Southerners themselves determined “to hold fast to their own, to maintain their divergences, to remain what they had been and were.” In 1956, almost a century after the Civil War, a fifth of Congress, almost all Democrats — signed the “Southern Manifesto” calling on states to refuse to obey the Supreme Court’s 1954 decision to end segregation in public schools. Nothing had changed. Are we so surprised that for many Americans, nothing has changed even today?

Nor has anti-liberalism only been about race. For more than a century after the Revolution, many if not most White Anglo-Saxon Protestants insisted that America was a Protestant nation. They did not believe Catholics possessed equal rights or should be treated as equals. The influential “second” Ku Klux Klan of the 1920s was anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish as well as anti-Black, which was why, unlike the original Klan, it flourished outside the South. Many regard today’s Christian nationalism as a fringe movement, but it has been a powerful and often dominant force throughout America’s history.

Of course these were southern Democrats back in the '50s where party allegiances were murky.

[Justice matters.]

56. I think, JFK kind of "put them" to sleep, and LBJ followed to "open their minds"

It's been a "new generation" of post-WWII Dems since then, close to the Founders's intents.

[peggysue2]

24. Excellent essay, Peggy. Thank you for posting.

This piece should be required reading for every loyal, sentient American.

Because?

This is not a drill.

Everything we understand, everything we identify when we refer to ourselves as 'American' is on the line in November. Kagan is quite right--this is not new in American history, this unwillingness to accept a liberal, inclusive society. Yet it is a cause millions of Americans have sacrificed everything--including their lives-- to protect.

Now it's our time, our moment.

We must not fail.

[Stuart G]

26. removed by author

[mtngirl47]

27. So many thoughts.

The Trump voters---our neighbors, our family members---they are racists, xenophobes, homophobes and misogynists.

The Trump voters were triggered when Barak Hussein Obama was elected President, twice, and did a damn fine job. Voting for Trump was as extreme as they could get. He said the quiet part out loud and gave them permission to wear their white robes.

The Trump voters that I know are lazy thinkers who parrot the talking points that come from right wing media. They don't have an original thought. We have tried to talk to them. We have held out our hand and tried to "understand" their viewpoints. They have slapped our hands down and doubled down on their crazy logic.

Lately my feelings swing from hope to despair to fear. We have hoped and counted on our courts through the turmoil that is Trumpism. Now we know that the highest court in the land will not do what is right, moral, and "American."

If Trump is elected again and the crazy Project 2025 is implemented--will we be jailed, silenced, killed? How quickly will they move, and will we keep trying to work within the "system" to fix things or will violence erupt as we try to protest? Will I be as brave as those who came before me that advocated for Civil Rights?

Rachel Maddow did a great episode on her Deja News Podcast about Poland and their extreme right-wing government. It took 8 years of right-wing populism rule for the people of Poland to vote them out. Lucky that the right-wing government didn't take away their rights to vote. It gives me hope that we could possibly come back from another Trump presidency, but then I remember that he and the Republicans have spent their time casting aspersions on our elections. I'm not sure that any election after this one would ever matter or count.

Now that I have depressed myself and possibly you all----let me put on my Democratic Party hat and ask you, beg you, implore you to get involved with your local precinct. They need you to make calls. They need you to write post cards. They need whatever money you can give. The Trumpers think that there are more of them because we don't hang up flags or even put bumper stickers on our cars...Your local precinct needs you to write letters to the editor for your local paper. We need you to plan how you are going to vote and take somebody with you!

Vote blue, no matter who!

[niyad]

28. KNR and bookmarking. Thank you for sharing.

[HUAJIAO]

29. Brilliant piece. I NEVER EVER post anything political onmy FB wall.

I posted this!!!!!

Thanks.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

30. Thank you for posting it on Facebook, and for making me smile, my dear HUAJIAO! ♥ nt

[nolabear]

31. Thank you Peggy. That might be the best description I've read

And the most disheartening, not in the sense that it can’t be defeated but the reality of the inherent cruelty of many Americans—well, it’s no surprise but we so hoped it would get better. I’m holding on to hope for my children and theirs, but I don’t know.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

32. I believe that things will get better, my dear nolabear, but first we must decisively win this election!

Everything rides on that.

[Bundbuster]

33. Thanks for this informative piece by Robert Kagan, one of the best

I will be posting more on this tomorrow, off to bed now.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

34. Good night, my dear Bundbuster! See you tomorrow . . .

[plcdude]

45. Thank you

Peggy

[justaprogressive]

47. Thanks CaliforniaPeggy

[MustLoveBeagles]

48. Thanks for posting this

Bookmarking for later

[bdamomma]

50. Kicking this article

or bookmarked.

[Bundbuster]

53. Kagan's article is the best summary of what we're up against

Two recent posts about the growing Christian Nationalist threat, which I've been warning folks about for the last 44 years:

'Demolishing democracy': how much danger does Christian nationalism pose?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218903860

'In bed together': How Christian nationalists and big donors are 'demolishing democracy'
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218901586

From the documentary "Bad Faith" available on Amazon Prime:

"The current day assault on democracy did not begin with Trumpism. It did not begin with the Tea Party. It did not begin with the Moral Majority. It did not even begin in this century. The current day assault on democracy began with the White Supremacy Movement in the 1960's as part of a shrewd, calculated, and well executed plan that became cloaked as a religious movement."

Funded, I might add, by secretive, self-serving atheistic billionaires - the puppeteers of Trump, Bush, and Reagan.

[Wild blueberry]

55. Superb article!

Thank you so much for posting this, CaliforniaPeggy.
It is grim, but completely accurate. This explains the pickle we're in better than almost anything else I've read.
He really cuts to the historical chase.
Everyone I know is working our mightiest to elect as many Democrats as we can for a Blue Tsunami this November.
I hope and trust it is enough.
Thank you.

[CBHagman]

57. Thank you for posting this.

I was going to do the same!

[Gato Moteado]

58. thanks for posting this, peg....

...i just finished the article.....he's laid it out pretty clearly.

[SARose]

60. Federalist No. 10

The Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection
From the New York Packet. Friday, November 23, 1787.
MADISON

Snip

Hence, it clearly appears, that the same advantage which a republic has over a democracy, in controlling the effects of faction, is enjoyed by a large over a small republic,--is enjoyed by the Union over the States composing it. Does the advantage consist in the substitution of representatives whose enlightened views and virtuous sentiments render them superior to local prejudices and schemes of injustice? It will not be denied that the representation of the Union will be most likely to possess these requisite endowments. Does it consist in the greater security afforded by a greater variety of parties, against the event of any one party being able to outnumber and oppress the rest? In an equal degree does the increased variety of parties comprised within the Union, increase this security. Does it, in fine, consist in the greater obstacles opposed to the concert and accomplishment of the secret wishes of an unjust and interested majority? Here, again, the extent of the Union gives it the most palpable advantage.

The influence of factious leaders may kindle a flame within their particular States, but will be unable to spread a general conflagration through the other States. A religious sect may degenerate into a political faction in a part of the Confederacy; but the variety of sects dispersed over the entire face of it must secure the national councils against any danger from that source. A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it; in the same proportion as such a malady is more likely to taint a particular county or district, than an entire State.

Snip

More

Madison is my hero. I remember being forced to read the Federalist Papers in the 8th grade. Some of them are sooo boring but Madison always taught me something.