'A step back in time': America's Catholic Church sees an immense shift toward the old ways

[dalton99a]

Last edited Wed May 1, 2024, 09:38 AM - Edit history (1)

https://apnews.com/article/catholic-church-shift-orthodoxy-tradition-7638fa2013a593f8cb07483ffc8ed487

‘A step back in time': America’s Catholic Church sees an immense shift toward the old ways
By TIM SULLIVAN
Updated 11:07 PM CDT, April 30, 2024

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — It was the music that changed first. Or maybe that’s just when many people at the pale brick Catholic church in the quiet Wisconsin neighborhood finally began to realize what was happening.

The choir director, a fixture at St. Maria Goretti for nearly 40 years, was suddenly gone. Contemporary hymns were replaced by music rooted in medieval Europe.

So much was changing. Sermons were focusing more on sin and confession. Priests were rarely seen without cassocks. Altar girls, for a time, were banned.

At the parish elementary school, students began hearing about abortion and hell.

“It was like a step back in time,” said one former parishioner, still so dazed by the tumultuous changes that began in 2021 with a new pastor that he only spoke on condition of anonymity.

It’s not just St. Maria Goretti.

....

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Shit, bring back pedophilia and the chastity belt. And get rid of that woke pope guy

[Lonestarblue]

1. My question is usually about who is funding these changes.

My guess is someone like Leonard Leo, who seems to think that living in the 15th century is a good idea.

[OnDoutside]

3. I can only speak for here in Ireland but quite a lot of the moderates left, leaving the conservative/hard right

taking control of the church. A lot of these guys would like nothing better than a good flailing.

[edhopper]

5. That is also the case

in America. There has been a 25% decline in membership. And those left are older.

[OnDoutside]

9. I don't worry about the older group too much, it's the young ones that you need to be concerned with. The ones

here would be behind any of the usual campaigns against abortion etc

https://thelifeinstitute.net/youth-defence/who-we-are

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iona_Institute#

[Rebl2]

14. So chasing away

the younger people. An acquaintance of mine who grew up Catholic left the Catholic church (in her late fifties) because she was fed up with the priest. I was surprised because she was so involved with her church. I also think she left because most of the church members were much older and they were always calling on her and the very few younger people to do everything even though she herself had many health issues.

[BoRaGard]

36. My mom was so devout, but she could not countenance the pedophilia

Especially the church's lies and cover up about it.

They broke her heart with their perversions and lies.

Sad.

The lost me when, as a little kid, they told me I had free will,
but absolutely had to accept their Faith or I would roast in Hell for eternity.

I mean, even as a kid I could not/would not swallow that HUGE incongruity.

You have free will but you can't use it. WTF?

[Rebl2]

38. My parents

were Methodist and they had one minister who I could not stand. He was all about you are going to rot in Hell and brimstone-the whole works. I had never met a Methodist minister like that. He did not last long at their church. Then they had a minister that was a business man previously. He didn’t last either. Then came the first female minister and she stayed for a few years. She was very nice.

[blm]

6. TFP group. Tradition, Family, Property. They are global.

They were followers of Bishop Lefebvre who had been kicked out, then Pope Benedict welcomed him back along with Opus Dei.

[Lonestarblue]

8. Thank you. I had not been reading about them lately.

[BoRaGard]

37. Ahhh, Pope Bennie. Now I remember, Gack,

Dude had real Republican way about him...

[BoRaGard]

2. GOP Sinners in the hands of an Angry God

[Gore1FL]

4. I'm just spit-balling here, but I think many who appreciated the progress were leaving anyway.

The voices for change, acceptance, etc. were shown the door or left on their own. The only ones that remain are the people and ideas that drove the others away.

[dalton99a]

7. Stats on U.S. Catholics:

[shrike3]

10. GD is not for religious topics.

[dalton99a]

11. Conservative Catholics are a major driving force behind abortion bans

They are probably the most influential backers of abortion bans

[shrike3]

21. I didn't make the rules for GD.

But if the mods want to let this stay, okay.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. There Are No Mods

If you think the post should be removed, alert it & a jury will be chosen to determine its fate.
There is still MIRT (I'm serving on it this term), but that only applies to new members with limited posts.
The jury system replaced mods.

[shrike3]

28. I alerted hours ago. They haven't responded, so I guess they're letting the post be. Not up to me.

[ProfessorGAC]

33. If It Was Left To Stand By...

...a jury, that's the end of it.
I don't believe you hear back after a jury decides.
I never have been.

[Mosby]

40. An alert for a SoP violation goes to the group hosts.

Who you can see here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=about&forum=1002

It doesn't go to a jury, and their decision might take more time as the different hosts chime in on the host group thread about the alert. They have their own hidden forum.

[shrike3]

41. No worries. It's out of my hands. Thanks for checking in.

[Ritabert]

12. Most liberal and moderate Catholics left long ago

Fifty years ago for me. The hypocrisy of banning birth control even for married women while enabling pedophile priests was the end for me.

[Cerridwen]

13. ...And it's not just happening in Catholic circles...

I got bored a few months back while experiencing the worst fricken ride of my life with 2 full days of Covid. To the point, I found a community, or so I thought at the time, a community of tarot readers "for entertainment purposes only" who sounded awfully "revivally" to my untrained ear.

The Tarot Community Actual is all "a'twitter" with the news recently and are loudly and actively laughing at incoming detritus wearing a xtian cross and "defended" by the bible as a global-wide permanent celibacy is widely and roundly demanded. I've never laughed so hard in my entire 66 years on this planet. Alright, I'm done with epic stories and "tales of derring do..."

I'll leave to you to stroll on over and have a chuckle.

But I warn you hot coffee burns and choking's no fun.

See ya on the flop-side. C and her chuckling visage out.



No links provide source too biased.

(oops! edit for "o&quot

[Sky Jewels]

15. The RCC is

a women-hating pedo & grifting ring. Why anyone with any liberal leanings continues to support this vile male supremacist institution in its centuries-long reign of terror against females is beyond me.

[keep_left]

16. A large part of it is the effect of radtrad Catholic media like EWTN...

...Relevant Radio, Ave Maria Radio/University/anything, etc. The first thing they did was "Google bomb" the internet so that they're at the top any web search. They did this by creating tons of blogs and other low-effort sites that all link to one another, which is apparently part of how the Google algorithm works. "Google bombing" makes it look like EWTN is some sort of authoritative Church source when in fact they have no official Church standing (the ownership and governance of EWTN was handed over to a lay board when the late Mother Angelica endangered the network by feuding with high-ranking clergy).

EWTN and the other radtrad Catholic groups absolutely hate a lot of the liturgical music of the last 50-60 years or so, and they attack it constantly ("St. Louis Jesuits" is a popular snarl word on Relevant Radio), so I'm not surprised that music was low-hanging fruit in their culture war. It's now moved on to the Communion in the hand "controversy", Confession obsession, and of course abortion politics 24-7.

[musette_sf]

20. For a rational Catholic view,

please visit the National Catholic Reporter.

https://www.ncronline.org/

Their editorial staff has called the type of Catholics described in the OP as “Taliban Catholics”.

[keep_left]

26. Thanks for the reminder. I was aware...

...of the Reporter, but I haven't visited their site in a long time. I do remember that one of their writers covers EWTN as part of their regular beat. I have also heard good things about America and Commonweal.

You may already be aware that there is an NCR impostor: the National Catholic Register. The paper is owned by EWTN and as would be expected, it is in lockstep with their views.

[shrike3]

43. I enjoy NCR. n/t

[NanaCat]

22. The largest part of it is that the moderates/liberals

Are leaving in droves, pure and simple, because they're sick of the hate on women, the hate on LGBTs and the child rape.

What's really dangerous is that these moderates/liberals were predominantly younger members. As in the kind with young families. They're not raising their kids in the church, and that's going to reverberate through the years, in very bad ways for the Vatican.

[shrike3]

30. Ninety-two percent of the church is not in the United States.

So, what happens in the U.S. may or may not reverberate through the years. The American church is doubling down at a time when it is largely being ignored by the international church. The days of the Kennedys and their influence is long gone. The global church is grappling with things like climate change, which is impacting its people -- Africa, Central America -- in real time. Why Francis was such a supporter of the Paris Agreement. There are other issues such as the cartel murders of priests in Mexico, which has gone on for quite some time.

[Retrograde]

29. The problem IMHO is that Vatican II may have changed the outer trappings

but didn't do anything about the fundamental issue, namely that women are still treated as lesser beings. And they did nothing to alter the hierarchical nature of the Church to bring it into alignment with post-Enlightenment thought.

I grew up in a neighborhood that was mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans, with roots in conservative communities in eastern Europe. The priest was often the only educated person in a parish, and expected to be treated as someone above the common herd, just like back in the Old Country. Women's job was to fill the pews; surplus women often ended up in convents. And no one talked back to or contradicted a priest on anything, period, as he was God's local manifestation. I think that's what many in the younger generation of priests are looking for, and in that it's not that different from many conservative movements: they resent the loss of power, especially to people they were raised to think are their inferiors.

There was a lot of (to be polite) sub-par liturgical music (and other art) introduced in the late sixties onwards, but there was also a lot of mediocre music and art produced before that. I've recently been listening to European Baroque choral music (including an extremely complex Bach piece recently) and, yes, it is better than what I remember from the sixties - but it also required a trained choir and musicians, which most parish churches don't have.

[shrike3]

31. Two-thirds of the church is in the third world.

Meaning there are cultural differences associated with everything else. Only eight percent of the church is in the U.S. and the American Church grows more and more marginalized every day, as it ignores such global issues as climate change.

[shrike3]

42. Quite frankly, none of this has been on my radar.

I go to mass regularly, and none of these issues are ever discussed. Maybe because of the bishop we have,

[keep_left]

45. That's possible. Or maybe you're in a place where culture wars...

...aren't being actively fought. I am aware that at least a few bishops and archbishops are tired of constant Kulturkampf nonsense and they sometimes try to suppress it. For example, the diocese of Madison (WI) was home to an infamous "celebrity priest" ( "Father Z" ), who was recently given his walking papers by his superior, Bishop Hying. EWTN helps create many of these "celebrity priests" who often end up in various scandals due to their perceived "stardom" and hugely inflated egos.

If you don't see the culture war being played out in your fair town or city, count your blessings.

[Deep State Witch]

17. My Husband Left

Joined our local Episcopalian Church and never looked back. He was tired of them hating on gay people and women, but the straw that broke the camel's back was the systematic abuse of children. He was fortunate that he was never abused himself. There was one priest at his parish in Indianapolis that was later found out to be a pedo, but my husband and his brothers always stayed away from him.

[PufPuf23]

34. I attended a military academy owned by the Episcopalian church in 8th and

9th grade (66-68). It was one of the sickest places have ever experienced. Has not existed since the early 70s. Good. Learned much about life and humans that influences thought to present.

[comradebillyboy]

18. Well that should hasten the

exodus away from Holy Mother the Church.

[Sky Jewels]

19. It's ironic that such a patriarchal, women-hating, male supremacist institution

like this fucking evil church associates itself with anything female, like the term "mother."

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

24. I like this mom: "I don't want my daughter to be Catholic," said Christine Hammond, "Not if this is the Roman Catholic

“Not if this is the Roman Catholic Church that is coming.”

[shrike3]

32. Only eight percent of the church is in America.

What happens here has little impact on the global church, which has problems of its own, one of which is climate change. Catholics in Africa and Central America are experiencing climate change in real time, hence Francis' support of the Paris agreement.

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

23. and more will flee religion

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

25. Often, at least a couple families will arrive with four, five or even more children, signaling their adherence to the ch

They often stand out in the pews, with the men in ties and the women sometimes with the lace head coverings that all but disappeared from American churches more than 50 years ago. Often, at least a couple families will arrive with four, five or even more children, signaling their adherence to the church’s ban on contraception, which most American Catholics have long casually ignored.

[UTUSN]

35. Oh joy

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"


[GOWDY/inquisitor]

********QUOTE****

The Inquisition, what a show
The Inquisition, here we go
We know you're wishing
That we'd go away
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay

*******UNQUOTE**********

[edisdead]

39. Until people wake up and call this scam what it is

Until people wake up and call this scam what it is good people will have to endure their bullshit and their effect on policy. So sick of having to try to stay rational while people who believe in a sky daddy are so influential in EVERYONE ELSE’S FUCKING LIVES.

It is a cult.

[Renew Deal]

44. I read the article and spent some time looking up some of the issues

Because I think this entire thing is fascinating. I think there is probably truth in the simple explanation that a smaller church is more likely to be made up of more devout people. At the same time, it appears that there are some in the catholic church that are choosing to revert to more "traditional" rituals, including Latin masses. I read that priests ordained since 2010 are more likely to perform Latin masses. Why are young priests learning Latin masses? Is it a requirement of the seminary or a fad? Could the seminaries be the ones responsible for these changes?

The AP article includes a video of a priest saying more young people are participating in "eucharistic adoration." That appears to be controversial according to this 14 year old video:

That video includes a quote from a priest that was against eucharistic adoration because "Catholics are literate and well educated, and the mass is in the language of the people, it's rituals are easy to understand and follow."

The part about the mass being in the language of the people is notable once again. From what I can tell, the catholic church modernized around 1970 and mostly eliminated Latin masses in the US. So it's obvious that older Catholics would see the Latin masses as a step backwards.

In 2021, the Pope "imposed new restrictions on traditional Latin Mass."

Using a Latin Mass can be seen as less inclusive, and more likely to separate people from the church, while keeping them ignorant and reliant on priests. That is a millennia old tactic.

So is the imposition of Latin Mass a lurch to traditionalism, orthodoxy, and conservative politics? Is it simply the outcome of a smaller church? Is it just different, which makes it interesting? Or is it as some perceive, a rebellion against a church that has lost its way?

Personally, I think people of all beliefs should follow the path that is meaningful to them, and they shouldn't impose their beliefs on the rest of society or endanger other creatures.

EDIT: This article from 2021 has good info on what's happening with Latin masses and women wearing veil's. They claim it's not a political thing (as did part of the AP article). https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2021/07/latin-mass-held-in-new-orleans-with-support-of-archbishop