Pushing the idea that agitators led protesters into bad behavior is absurd

[ripcord]

Oh those poor, innocent, naive children were just influenced by bad actors. Not only are they adults who went into this with their eyes wide open but there is no proof of this conspiracy theory. Some people just want to protect the protesters from the consequences of the actions they chose.

[Marcus IM]

1. Sensible response

[ripcord]

3. President Biden spoke out against the protesters actions and said it needed to stop

Do you feel that cartoon applies to him?

[Freethinker65]

2. Protesting is one thing, violence and destruction is another.

Protesting is legal.

Attending a protest rally is fine, including those that merely attended the "stop the steal rally". Marching to the Capitol steps and disrupting traffic, marginal to meh. Violently and destructively gaining entrance is/was unacceptable and considered a crime. Doing bodily harm to those performing their jobs and/or going about their daily routines is a crime.

The same can be said for the student and non-student protestors on college campuses. Not all those that attended the protests went on to block others from entry to campus nor occupy campus buildings with the intent of holding the space hostage. If you intend to stage a sit in, you must be prepared for the possible consequences.

Getting swept up in a mob mentality moment is not a valid excuse. Accept responsibility for your decisions.

[Marcus IM]

9. I agree. Damaging school properties is unacceptable.

[Freethinker65]

17. Cute. You honestly feel violence/destruction of your own campus is justified?

Whatever.


I stand by my opinion in my post.

FWIW, I attended a few protests during my college years. Never committed a crime greater than blocking a street and chanting to prevent others from hearing Bush Sr. (CIA irony) giving a speech to honor the Peace Corps. Also attended a speech by Francis Lappe I thought would be about vegetarianism, and ended up being a Sandinista rally (was smart enough to leave shortly after it began). I have also participated in several marches the past decade, carrying my pocket Constitution and list of phone numbers had I been detained by LE.

[Marcus IM]

27. Huh? Where do you get that?

How does my agreeing with your point about destruction of schools/property turn into you accusing me with this:
"You honestly feel violence/destruction of your own campus is justified?"?

I don't get it.

Just posting accusations out of thin air? Do you honestly feel that is a good method of communicating here?

[Voltaire2]

34. Because apparently they honestly feel the violence and destruction in Gaza is justified. nt.

[sarisataka]

39. Because of the violence and destruction in Gaza

some people believe violence against American Jews is justified.

Just sayin'

[JustAnotherGen]

56. Folks don't

Want to admit it. But you are right.

[Voltaire2]

60. That might be true, but currently real people

are being killed starved dehomed and brutalized in large numbers in Gaza.

[sarisataka]

61. Are US Jews not real people?

Who are not starving, dehoming or brutalizing anyone?

[Voltaire2]

81. US Jews are currently being bombed shot and starved to death

in a siege conducted by one of the most powerful military forces on the planet?

I didn’t know that. That’s outrageous. Do you have any more information on this?

[sarisataka]

85. Not at all what I said, nor do i believe

You are so obtuse that you would read it as such.

Your position is crystal.

[Demsrule86]

76. The Jewish people murdered by Hamas during the attack were real people.

These protests do nothing but cause Hamas not to support a cease-fire and ultimately a two-state solution.

[Freethinker65]

57. Because I thought the images were insinuating what you appear to be accusing me of

Nowhere did I say I condoned the maiming and killing of innocents and destroying their homes, businesses, hospitals, schools, and communities (in Gaza, or anywhere).

[Voltaire2]

32. That's just fine as Gazans don't really count as people.

[sarisataka]

4. The narrative has completely collapsed

we are seeing simultaneously pushed explanations that all of the students were peaceful and it was outside groups responsible for the vandalism and antisemitism. Also, that the protesters are all students/faculty, there have been no outsiders and that is a RW tropes to slander the protests.

Obviously, these are mutually exclusive, but Orwell created a term for being able to support such positions.

[cachukis]

5. Just had a convo with my sister who's daughter's father is

Jewish, works in the city. Columbia grads in her cohort.
The students are fully aware of the circumstances in the Gaza /Israeli clash. The protests are well organized and outside participants are mostly supportive of the students.
They are adamantly opposed to providing Israel with weaponry and demand University divestment from any companies doing business with Israel.
They feel the status quo of boomer government as a non starter. They want someone younger, running. They are focused on this issue.
My sister says many will not vote for Biden because of his support for Israel and his age.
Her daughter, my niece, is adamant that her Jewish friends are very anti Bibi, but very defensive toward Israel.
They are against what Israel is doing to Gaza.
They join Palestinian supporters against the killing of innocents.
There are decriers of anti semitism
and anti zionism among them.
There are Palestinian supporters who exhibit anti semite and anti zionism in the mix.
The protests have experienced protesters among them.

What I mostly took away was the awareness and commitment of the protesters was very palpable.

We worried if they could, in the end, select a big picture rather than an inset.

[maxsolomon]

7. Sounds about right. A mix of opinions, with some problematic sloganeering.

Interesting that a few University Administrations have been able to placate their students by committing to "explore" or hold a vote or divestment. At Evergreen, the Admin agreed to call for a ceasefire. That seems like an easy concession.

The problem is that there is no straight line from American Universities to Israeli strategy in Gaza. Divestment from Israel will accomplish nothing - and there are millions of liberals in Israel's economy that hate the RW Settler movement just as much as any Anti-Zionist undergrad. Not supplying weaponry (beyond what we just approved) will accomplish nothing. The IDF will continue without our arms, but we'd lose influence over their Govt.

[Bad Thoughts]

11. The table of eleven Nazis

If they are protesting along with these vile Hamas sympathizers, their nuance, such as it is, is meaningless. They need to separate and make an actual protest that supports peace, short term and long.

[shrike3]

12. They are also misguided and naive.

Do they realize Trump wants Bibi to "finish up," that his SIL is talking about condos for Gaza. And that Trump is very, very anti-protest. And that they should forget about protesting if he gets in.

[cachukis]

21. My sister insisted they were strong in their

assessment of the issues.
They were opposed to Hamas, but recognized the plight of the refugees.

I fear their world vision is limited to the incidents at hand. They are purposefully in a mix. Their faith in the old guard is thin.

My niece is in an old white shoe philanthropy and has colleagues with Columbia connections. These are a well educated bunch.

[shrike3]

48. They certainly aren't strong in their assessment of all the issues.

They certainly haven't assessed Trump's potential impact on Gaza. Or the fact that their protesting days may be over if he gets back in. He's very loudly complaining about protests while in criminal docket. Do they honestly think they'll be able to keep it up if the war continues under his administration? Trump is urging Netanyahu to "finish it up." What do they think that means? Kushner has suggested moving all the people out, razing the place and building waterfront condos.

It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[cachukis]

49. I think I implied your sentiments. They have strength in

their convictions and the distrust of those who allowed us to get here.

Just reporting on the voice of my niece through my sister.

[shrike3]

50. It's too bad. Maybe it's youth. The inability to see the big picture.

They'd be far more unhappy with Trump's policies toward Gaza. And even unhappier when he shut down their protests. As I said, cut off the nose to spite the face.

[cachukis]

51. They don't seek out their elders.

They use the immediacy of social media to get corroboration or refutation from their friend's purported wisdom. They use Google and YouTube without mentors.
We do it too.
We live the world we accept.

[shrike3]

64. TBF, I don't recall my friends and I seeking out their elders, either.

It's probably happens each generation. My generation, Generation Jones, was not dealing with such life or death matters, nor were we protesting, save for a very few lefties (at the university) who were ignored by the population at large.

[cachukis]

66. I was referring to the ages. I mentioned we do it too.

I was lucky to have elders in my life and had the conversations.
What I was intimating, was we would seek the Oracle in our studies. We contemplated why Eisenhower built the Interstate System. We learned that the first skyscrapers had base walls many feet thick. We wondered how cathedrals stayed erect. We learned about buttress.
Today, kids look up a USA today explanation and are experts.
I watched and lived the transformation of youngsters that began in 2007 with the introduction of the smart phone. I taught high school surrounded by public housing until 2017.
The impact of social media has become more pervasive since. It has replaced much introspection with immediacy.
Long term implications are just that, long term.
Too complicated for here.

[shrike3]

75. Certainly social media plays a role.

But I think it's fair to point out that young people are young people. "Don't trust anyone over thirty" was a babyboomer slogan, after all.

[cachukis]

77. No question. Simply seeing the change in the

social fabric. The family structure is not what it once was. The population of the country has doubled since the 50's and 60's.
We have to acknowledge the world we live in. Our commonality is threadbare.
Those who are not actively moving forward intellectually, are desperate for connections. Just like previous generations.
Youngsters are not turning to religion and are very accepting of others. But they are fearful of what we have left on their doorsteps, if they even have one.
We are now a trump news cycle nation. Young people today have been living his commotion for nearly ten years. They have grown up with smart phones and that is their connection to the world.
Many don't see the alarm because it is with them. They are used to it.
We need to recognize this.

[maxsolomon]

53. Kushner is a jagoff, but that's not really what his comments were about.

“Gaza’s waterfront property, it could be very valuable, if people would focus on building up livelihoods. If you think about all the money that’s gone into this tunnel network and into all the munitions, if that would have gone into education or innovation, what could have been done?”

That's saying it could have been Gazans that developed their waterfront; instead, Hamas wasted millions building tunnels - though much of that's directly from Iran's oil wealth.

Then he said that Gazans should be moved temporarily to the Negev desert so the IDF and Hamas can fight it out in Rafah.

Which is stupid, sure. But Israel's now saying to move them to Al-Mawasi on the Gaza Waterfront - if you look at an aerial view you'll see much of Gaza's agriculture is centered there. Greenhouses, fields.

[shrike3]

63. Either way would not be a good result for palestinians.

Thus parsing words would not make a difference for them.

[uponit7771]

54. Wasn't kids protesting Vietnam called similar?

[shrike3]

62. Well, they had Nixon to deal with afterwards.

And these kids may have Trump. Draw your own conclusions.

[AnrothElf]

67. True... they turned against LBJ which turned out to be a HUGE mistake.

Cut off one's nose to spite one's face.

There's a lot of nostalgia for the 60s-70s antiwar protests. Especially here on DU where the average user age is probably septuagenarian.

But IMO the civil rights protests are the far better example. Actual, disciplined civil disobedience by people desperately fighting for their OWN rights, 1st person.

My mom, now 83, recently said much the same thing. That they were naive and impractical for undermining LBJ, and look how that turned out.

[shrike3]

74. I agree. Civil rights protests were so righteous. I'm in awe of those who stood up in them.

[flamingdem]

88. No respect for people who won't vote for Biden because of his age

or his support for Israel.

Anyone doing that is an idiot considering the consequences.

[Bobstandard]

6. Clearly you're not familiar with the Black Watch

This is a group of anarchists who organize to attend demonstrations and use them as cover for their penchant for damage and destruction. They have no interest in the issue at hand. They just like cover of a crowd to break shit and cause trouble. I’ve seen them in action at other wise peaceful, organized marches in Oakland, Berkeley and San Francisco. I’m sure that these folks and their ilk are present at these demonstrations. To think otherwise is naive. The evidence will emerge.

[maxsolomon]

8. Black Bloc

This is the Black Watch:
?w=1980

[Bobstandard]

13. It's Black Block! Thanks for the correction nt

[Bobstandard]

14. Bloc? Not according to my autocorrect. nt

[XorXor]

84. Haven't heard much about Black Bloc these days

Seems like antifa has become the label now, aye? Basically the same stuff, right?

[Sympthsical]

92. Not really

Black Bloc is more purely anarchist in its beliefs, aims, and tactics. If you walk through downtown Oakland and see entire sections of shops, banks, etc., boarded up, you immediately know Black Bloc has been lurking about.

Antifa is kind of more authoritarian Marxist.

The Right conflates every far Left group and Antifa is their flavor of the decade, but if you listen you can figure out who's who. I had a tenant for about a year who was Antifa with his friends. Super into oppressor/oppressed ideology. He used to read books like "Brown Skin, White Minds" (which I read at his urging and rolled my eyes so hard, I'm still taking advil for it). It's the kind of thinking that isn't self-aware enough to realize how incredibly racist it is and how authoritarian its aims and goals.

There are some who think they're going to be the ones to put their enemies against the wall without the historical knowledge to understand they will be the second ones against the wall.

The kind of stuff you can only possibly believe when you're basically a college freshman and knowledge, wisdom, and experience hasn't yet been mixed in with all those shallow epiphanies.

And some people just never grow out of that stage.

[Voltaire2]

36. Bloc not watch, and they are not really an organization, more of a mode of protest.

But you are the expert.

[Happy Hoosier]

10. I dunno... I remember being a kid...

And these students ARE still kids. They get excited, they get passionate, and they are just sure enough of the righteousness of their cause to convince themselves to do stupid shit with a bit of a push.

That doesn't releieve them of the repsonsibility of their actions, but I think we need to acknowledge when these kids are being egged on by bad actors.

[ripcord]

18. Do you have any proof the students wsre influenced by outsiders?

Or is this just one more conspiracy theory?

[Happy Hoosier]

19. The fact that a large proportion of the "protestors" were not students

is a pretty good indicatro to me.

Also, the fact that some of the "leaders" are makign statements that a substnatial number of other students appear to not support.

What some of these folks say and do is not a "conspiracy theory. But neither do I think all these students support a sentiment like "Zionists don't deserve to live."

I don't think that the Antisemitism expressed by a lot of the protest leadership refelcts what most of these students really want.

[ripcord]

22. So no proof, it is just one of those things you know

Doesn't that describe conspiracy theories?

[Qutzupalotl]

23. Media reports are saying a large number of those arrested

on campus protests have no affiliation with the school. That makes them outsiders by definition.

Are you saying the media is lying?

[ripcord]

24. That doesn't prove that they influenced the students in any way

Try again.

[Qutzupalotl]

28. How would one prove influence?

[ripcord]

30. So you have nothing, not surpised

[Qutzupalotl]

33. I notice you did not answer the question.

[ripcord]

35. You made a statemet like that without anything to ba k it up

Maybe you should have thought that through.

[Qutzupalotl]

38. YOU made the assertion that outsiders are not influencing protestors.

The burden is on you to back it up.

[ripcord]

40. If you bother to read the OP

I said there was no proof outside agitators influenced the students and that they are responsible for their own actions.

[Qutzupalotl]

42. There is no evidence they are or are not being influenced

yet you choose to believe your opinion without evidence for or against.

Maybe correct your own thinking before insisting everyone who disagrees with you prove the unprovable.

[AnrothElf]

69. LOL the onus is on you to prove a positive, not on them to prove a negative.

You claim that outsiders are influencing protesters? Prove it.

You can't shift the burden of proof to prove a negative.

[Qutzupalotl]

72. I did not make that claim.

I said there was no evidence either way, and asked how influence could be proven.

The OP claimed protesters were not influenced by outsiders, but has no evidence for that assertion beyond bluster.

[Happy Hoosier]

70. "Proof" is about being convinced.

The high proportion of non-student “activists” is enough to convince there is outside influence. If you wanna believe they are all Antisemitic kittle shits, that’s on you. Some of them surely are. But I’m willing to broadly dismiss the good intentions of the others, however misdirected.

[jimfields33]

29. I don't care if non students were there. The students were adults and didn't need to follow them.

Time for them to grow up.

[Voltaire2]

37. You've lost the narrative. It is very important to express outrage over the outside agitators.

[Happy Hoosier]

71. I AM outraged over these outsiders...

Who I am convinced want to sow discord and division in the Democratic party. I’m just not willing to throw every protesting student under that bus.

[Voltaire2]

73. For the most part the 'outside agitators' were

in fact people from the community around the schools.

[JustAnotherGen]

58. I don't believe that 21 year olds

Are just "kids".

[AnrothElf]

68. "WE ARE HAMAS!" Student or 'agitator'?

https://nypost.com/2024/04/18/us-news/columbia-university-protester-yells-were-all-hamas-video/

Only one, albeit egregious, example of why I don't take these "pro-Palestinian" protests seriously. These are not serious people. No good-faith dialogue can be opened with people who harbor such vile hatred and support literal, actual, bomb-vest-wearing terrorists.

[Chakaconcarne]

15. not really

[Ping Tung]

16. I agree that the protesters made their own adult choices. The right ones.

The absurd "conspiracy theory" is about the mythical "outside agitators" bogeyman. Except for the fact that the cops are the "outside agitators" who don't belong on any campus to stifle free speech and assembly.

[Silent3]

20. Actually, if the police are at a protest because of civil disobedience, for acts beyond free speech...

…then they’re playing the role that should be expected and desired by protesters, at least if the police are civilized in the way they make arrests.

This is what civil disobedience is about: showing you’re willing to be arrested and possibly charged for your cause.

It’s only disgraceful intolerance of protest if the cops act like thugs instead of calmly doing their job.

[ripcord]

25. I'm amazed people believe all you have to do is say civil disobedience

And suddenly you are no longer responsible for your actions, they is a serious /facepalm.

[Ping Tung]

26. When I was protesting the cops were hardly civilized.

Fortunately, I was still young and fleet footed and took off when they chased us. The effect was the about the same as far as recognized civil disobedience went. Especially at one demo where a slower runner was caught and had one eye put out by the heel of a billy club. I was too busy running to see it happen but it did make the L.A. Times.

But, I do agree that demos are supposed to attract attention. But, the attention should be about the cause of the demo rather than just the protesters.

[jimfields33]

31. The police are in no win situation.

They were heavily bashed when they didn’t go in. And they are bashed when they do go in.

[Think. Again.]

41. You have an odd sense of the absurd...

"A veteran activist joined Columbia protesters. Police call her a 'professional agitator.' "
https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18914272

[ripcord]

43. I must havw missed the part where she told them to engage in hate speech or destruction

For all we know age she was stressing moderation, until someone comes forward to say all this is just unsupported speculation.

[Think. Again.]

44. Yeah, it seems you might have missed quite a bit..

...you might try reading the article.

[LeftInTX]

45. She was filmed occupying Hamilton Hall with them. Then she ducked out before everyone was arrested.

[grumpyduck]

46. I don't see the problem here.

Some of the people arrested have been students. Some not.

I haven't been to any of these myself, but I don't see why we're thinking that outside demonstrators are urging the students to get violent. For all we know the real students may just be demonstrating and the outsiders are the ones causing the physical damage, hiding behind the students.

Until I see a line-up showing who, individually, did what, I'm not going to assume anything.

[mahina]

52. Remember the guy dressed all in black, masked, who smashed store windows during Black Lives Matter peaceful protests?

Outside agitators are all over the worst of this.

I hope protesters are getting good nonviolence training and what to do about outside agitators, as we did preparing for protests in the leadup to Iraq War II.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. ITA

[mahina]

59. ?

[applegrove]

65. Here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/02/business/media/campus-protests-russia-china-iran-us.html

[Midnight Writer]

78. If you want to protest, but you are not a student, where do you end up?

Answer: Joining the crowd on the nearest campus.

You're not going to march by yourself around the local Dairy Queen. You are going to march with a crowd for maximum impact. And the crowds getting publicity (making an impact) right now are on university campuses.

[John Shaft]

79. Reactionaries blamed "outside agitators" for civil rights marches and demonstrations

in the 1960s. Nothing is new.

[The Wizard]

80. Where were these "students"

When Russia started bombing the shit out of Ukraine? Could they be Putin's useful idiots?

[TomDaisy]

82. this is one of the most disgusting things ever posted on DU. Offensive and sickening.

[TomDaisy]

83. this is something I expect from MAGA

[Think. Again.]

86. Yeah, kinda makes ya wonder...

[obamanut2012]

87. Some of the takes on here about the protestors

Are... interesting.

[flamingdem]

89. "Outside agitators" didn't spray paint and barricade Royce Hall

[Cha]

91. TY!