General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIsraeli army strikes eastern Rafah
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) announced late on Monday night, May 6, that it conducted its first strikes against Palestinian militant group Hamas in the Gazan city of Rafah.
“The IDF is currently conducting targeted strikes against Hamas terror targets in eastern Rafah in southern Gaza,” the IDF posted on X.
Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari said that the Israeli army is “now attacking and operating against the targets of the terrorist organisation Hamas in a targeted manner in Mizrah Rafah.”
https://www.siasat.com/israeli-army-announces-strikes-on-rafah-3021666/
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
TomDaisy
(2,120 posts)
RandySF
(84,263 posts)
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Now he must decide if he wants more war or if he wants the hostages. I have a bad feeling, the man makes poor choices. Plus he's already a war criminal, what does he have to lose - except the lives of the hostages and Palestinians.
BannonsLiver
(20,594 posts)I don’t agree, but appreciate the honesty.
TomDaisy
(2,120 posts)sounds like we are wasting money funding Israel.
Mosby
(19,491 posts)sounds like your making shit up again.
TheProle
(3,980 posts)Holds gun: "I'm a freedom fighter!"
Puts gun down: "I'm a civilian!"
AZSkiffyGeek
(12,744 posts)
iemanja
(57,757 posts)Yet you didn't correct that.
So let's do the math: 15,000 Hamas fighters to 35,000 total killed. That makes 20,000 civilians killed, even assuming your numbers are correct. Of course, that's before Rafah, where over a million people are resident.
Mosby
(19,491 posts)So 24,000 total minus 15,000 terrorists leaves 9,000 civilian deaths.
iemanja
(57,757 posts)Mosby
(19,491 posts)I saw the 15k figure on twitter.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Not making shit up.
BannonsLiver
(20,594 posts)
debm55
(60,612 posts)
updates
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)BannonsLiver
(20,594 posts)
BannonsLiver
(20,594 posts)AloeVera
(4,263 posts)If not holding Hamas to account?
Half an army eliminated is zero accountability?
What you are really talking about is not accountability but total annihilation to satisfy the need for revenge for Oct 7th.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)
LuvLoogie
(8,815 posts)and air force intact.
The IDF is going into dangerous territory for sure. Have you seen those donkey carts?
LeftInTX
(34,288 posts)And why is Biden spending billions of dollars arming Israel? Is it so Jared can build condos in Gaza?
Are you accusing BIden of being stupid?????????
And why does Israel need an Iron Dome missile intercept? It is because of donkey's????
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)What do people in Rafah have to protect them now? Only donkey carts to flee with their families and meagre possessions.
So Israel is bombing people on donkey carts literally. Do you not see anything wrong?
Bombs, jets, tanks, drones etc against a defenceless people.
There was no safe, humanitarian evacuation. Only one day given, a day of terror and misery. There are no places in Gaza either safe or with enough food, water, infrastructure. The roads are under attack too. Misery upon misery.
Jared is just a joke and just a metaphor for the injustices and land grabs. The settlers are already trying to sneak in, per reports.
The attack on Rafah now must be a red line requiring intervention or we are not what we think we are.
LeftInTX
(34,288 posts)AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Well they do have AK-47s and RPGs.
Like I said, civilians have at least their donkeys to try to flee. Take their chances they won't be bombed on the way.
Underground city. But then why was most of surface-level Gaza destroyed? Oh yes, the IDF waited until they were home with their families.
LeftInTX
(34,288 posts)Just because an iron dome may not "seem fair" to you, it saves the lives of thousand of Israeli citizens. Should Israeli citizens just be allowed to die? Are you implying that Israel should not have an iron dome? Do you think Hamas has the right to shoot rockets over to Israel on a daily basis and Israel should just not do anything?
Just because Hamas is a terror group, has underground fortifications, has funding of billions of dollars from sources all over the word, does not justify their actions.
I am saying rockets are no good at defending civilians under bombardment.
Get back to trying to resolve the conflict peacefully. Enough killing on both sides. It'sinsanity.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)Then Hamas needs to surrender, lay down their arms, stop firing rockets into Israel, release ALL the hostages, etc. Then, we can give peace a chance.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)AloeVera
(4,263 posts)These can be used against IDF soldiers but they're useless against tanks.
The Qussam artillery rockets cant be used in that way.
The point is the civilians are defenseless. They have no army or comparable weapons protecting them. So I don't consider this to be a war, more of an assault, attack and massacre. Look at Rafah now.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)Anti-personnel, and anti-armor. If you have seen video of our vehicles driving around in the ME desert, and wondered about the funny looking screening around the sides/back of the vehicle, those are there to defeat the RPG round. The screening causes the warhead to detonate prematurely, disrupting the Monroe effect of the shaped charge. I don't recall the exact depth of armor a modern RPG will penetrate, but the sides and rear of tanks used to be kill zones for it. Our tanks have boxes of explosives attached to the outer part of the tank to have the same effect against the Monroe effect, basically disrupting the penetrating stream. On an Abrams, that's the funny looking boxes attached to the outer armor of the tank, front, sides, and turret.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Tbh I hate all weapons and tools of war. To me they're grotesque.
But you elucidated my point well about the uselessness of these RPGs against IDF superior capability.
Peace not war.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)The protections are there for a reason. It IS effective. And cheap, and plentiful. Just because a round hits the screen, and disrupts the charge, the anti-personnel part still works. Don't want to stand next to a vehicle that gets hit with an RPG. Even if the vehicle survives, you might not. And, not all vehicles are armored. Trucks carrying personnel, fuel trucks, etc. Tanks have a rather limited range, no fuel, no tank. The Gaza conflict isn't exactly huge, area wise, but the tank needs to be run fairly often to keep everything charged up. A stopped, turned off tank, is a target.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)I mean REALLY think about it. Hint: All those rockets being incessantly fired from Gaza. Pre- and post-Oct.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Nor that they kill.
I am arguing that a defenceless population, of mostly women and children to boot, should not be attacked by advanced military weapons. Do two wrongs make a right? Or 20,000?
yagotme
(4,135 posts)Hamas, composed of members of the Gazan population, attacked a defenseless music festival. What wrong were they trying to right?
What weapons are you recommending that Israel use to attack Hamas with? EVERY military in the world uses it's most advanced weapons. Israel is trying to utilize smart bombs in a lot of situations. Should they go back to using dumb bombs, and kill even MORE civilians? Indiscriminately fire artillery (like Hamas does with their rockets) into pockets of Gaza, hoping to hit something important? Be careful what you ask for, you might not like the result.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Until that is admitted to, on both sides, no chance of anything hopeful.
Cant keep defending the indefensible. The bombing, shelling, destruction was pretty indiscriminate and much of it against laws of war. Now it's Rafah's turn. It's beyond horrific.
And yes, Hamas needs to own up to and pay for, their barbarity on Oct 7th. Like I say, both sides, lots of wrongs. But this is not the way to do it.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)Ceasefires broken by Hamas. Rocket attacks, suicide bombings, etc. BEFORE Oct 7 were being committed. Hamas has violated "laws of war". Israel is no saint, but point me to the place where Israel actually started a mass casualty event, and not one where it was responding to an attack from terrorists. Israel is doing what it is doing, to preserve itself from being eradicated by extremists. If one doesn't like the way they have to do it, then I suggest a trip over there, get right in the middle of things, and see how things really are in the battle zone, and try a more "peaceful" method, and see how well it works. My money is on, it won't.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Are Palestinians inherently violent and extremists? Or do you think perhaps events and circumstances forced them into it? Wrong choice of course but look at history of oppression and where it leads. Again, self-reflection and honesty is the first step in anything resembling peace.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)They believe they should be wiped off the face of the earth. Talking won't accomplish that, only violence. The leaders of these movements preach violence, teach it to their children, so I guess there is some level of being "inherently" violent, as the children inherit their hate from their elders. The extremism goes back centuries, good luck changing that overnight.
Correct. Just getting the hatemongers to do this is the main part of the problem.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)And it's reflective of mainstream Israeli sentiment, there is no point in discussing anything. Good luck getting to peace.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)What did I post that was not historical fact? Peace in the ME has always been a goal, but never achieved. Too much hate, and keeping the next generation wound up will never stop it. In all truthfulness, take away Iran, and the ME would be a WHOLE lot more peaceful. No money for terrorists. Weapons dry up. Some of the hate disappears. Israel is getting along with a lot of her neighbors that they were fighting against not all that long ago. Peace HAS gained a foothold in the ME, and it seems that it's not really Israel's fault, that it has not gotten farther along. Other Arab nations have been at peace with Israel, so what's the problem with Palestine/Iran? Israel CAN obviously get along with Arab nations, so why not the outliers? Maybe it's their fault...
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Israelis dont seem to recognize the injustice of the Nakba and the suffering of Palestinians then and since or the draconian military occupation.Like Palestinians don't recognize their part in continuing the conflict or the immorality of the terrorist suicide bombings during the Intifadas (though to be fair they did stop those for at least a couple of decades before Oct 7).
It goes on and on. Can't you both go back to square one and recognize each other as people with legitimate needs and grievances? The demonization and denial of past wrongs is where the stuckness comes from. Truth and Reconciliation.
"Maybe it's their fault" - that way of thinking is the problem. Maybe it's both your faults?
How far back do you want to go? That part of the world has been fighting each other since the dawn of time, laying claim to that piece of dirt on and off again ad nauseum.
Sure, I can, But I'm not there. Israel is. Other Arab nations are. Israel is at peace with many of them. So, Israel is capable of making peace with the Muslim world. Now, is Hamas? Palestinians in general? Iran? If one side has accomplished a goal, and the other side has not, which side should get the blame?
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)That the Arab nations dont have, against Israel.
Tell me what that would be. I want to see if there is ANY point to this 'discussion.
One comment. I'm not sure the people of those Arab nations agree with their autocratic governments. Their leaders' self-interest in being on the good side of the U.S. has been a major determinant.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)Perhaps, over time, more of the people in those countries will lose the hate over Israel. And, I'm not quite sure how to answer this:
You "think" of a grievance, but you want me to say what it is? Is this some kind of test, or am I to read your mind? A few grievances come to mind, going both ways, so I'm not really sure what you want here. If I "guess" wrong, the discussion's over?
Settlements? Palestinian, but West Bank. West Bank didn't attack Israel in a surprise attack. They would have had a more reasonable argument than Gaza does.
Wall? Kinda Gaza's fault, actually, because militants kept crossing the border and attacking Israeli targets. One of those walls is on the border of Egypt, so I personally don't consider that a "be all, end all" argument against Israel. (Egypt didn't like being attacked, either.)
Blocking supplies/aid? Iran sends military hardware into Gaza. I doubt they're sending it in the original packing crate, so Israel has to check EVERYTHING.
Well, let me know how I did, or not. If you don't respond, I guess I failed...
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)It was a test but with good intentions. Having worked in education, I won't use the word failed. You have an interesting and enlightening perspective.
Interesting that you didn't mention the one thing that is the root cause. It's kind of a package deal, not a solitary event but a sequence. I look at it this way.
Zionist Movement/Balfour/Holocaust/Partition/Nakba/expulsion of 700,000 from their lands/no return/loss of majority of land/caging in small enclaves/more land confiscation/repression under military occupation.
The facts you mention are the consequence of all that, not the cause.
You of course will argue they left willingly or were told to leave by the Arabs. A study of the Israeli archives tells a different story. You should read some of the history not taught in Israeli schools.
Of course none of that original history can be changed nor all wrongs righted. Israel is here to stay. But look at South Africa. It was the acknowledgement, the seeing of suffering and harm done that made the difference.
Peace out. Nice chat. God help all people of Rafah.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)"particular event"
"not a solitary event but a sequence."
You asked for a particular event, but then supplied a sequence for the correct answer. Are you SURE you worked in education? To ask a testee to provide a singular, when you are looking for a sequence, the testee is doomed to "fail", correct? And, from previous posts, I asked how far back did you want to go. You failed to specify. Therefore, an answer that originated over 2,000 years ago could have also been "correct". So, I claim my answers were provided with the best information available, with the tester failing in more than one area to define the full parameters of the question. Some here are now refusing to consider Oct 7 as a pivotal date in the current war. So, I hope you can see where I am having difficulty meeting the standards of your "question".
It was the Nakba, which I meant to highlight and forgot.
But that can't be viewed in isolation, which it was my intention to show.
The Nakba. Root cause.
Till next time.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)lead to the Nakba, the arguments for a "root cause" can be arguable. The Nakba is another in the long line of territorial fights over this real estate over eons, as I have mentioned earlier. That was my problem, why I asked for clarification, on how far back you wanted to go. That area has ancient history, of which all walks of people there claim the "land heritage". It's like 2 second cousins fighting over Grampa's will.
sabbat hunter
(7,110 posts)only about 1/3rd were expelled by Israeli forces. Another 1/3rd fled violence/fighting between Israel and invading Arab forces. The last 1/3rd left due to Arab commanders on the ground telling them to leave.
Additionally, over 700k Jews were expelled from Arab countries after the War of Independence. But no one hears a peep out of them. You know why? All of them were given citizenship in one country or another.
Palestinians are unique refugees in that their refugee status is inherited, and that countries do not give them citizenship, due to the UNRWA. Under the UNHRC, refugees are given citizenship status in the countries they fled to. Why haven't Arab countries given the Palestinians citizenship in their countries, and still force them to live in refugee camps. Why only Palestinians can inherit refugee status?
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)I have not seen that 1/3 estimate you cite. Any source for that?
Without a doubt Palestinians were forcibly exiled/expelled, one way or another - but largely by means of violence such as massacres, village burnings, psychological warfare and fear of attacks. The attacks by the Irgun and Hagenah etc was part of Plan Dalet. In fact the attacks started in November 1947, six months before the Arab armies showed up, partly to stop the violent expulsions. By the time of Independence, about 200,000 had already been expelled. It was not a voluntary exodus and it was accomplished through violence and in fact what would be described as terrorism today. Most of these facts did not come to light until the declassification of public and private records in the 1980's,, including from the Israeli archives. However the myths seem to persist. It is clearly not in Israel's interests to change their national narrative.
Palestinians are indeed unique refugees. They are the oldest and most populous refugee group in the world (though not sure if they've been overtaken in the last few years by recent conflicts). They are also be the only group that has not been granted the right of return, as required by the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights. For 76 years, Israel, a member, has refused to meet its obligation under international law.
If refugees are still refugees and stateless at time of death, and the conflict is still unresolved, their descendants have nowhere to go, no? Denying the descendants refugee status would be like a death sentence, no?
The Arab countries already have 4 million refugees. They have citizenship in Jordan, about 2.4 million of them.
None of the Arab countries want to be complicit in the permanent exile and displacement of Palestinians and they have their own problems too.
Israel's solution, which you seem to be supporting, is to have the Arab countries take and assimilate the refugees. I view that as extremely unfair. Israel created the problem of the refugees through expulsions, annexation and confiscation of lands and the denial of right of return. To deny responsibility and compound that with an insanely unfair "solution" to Palestinians that would deprive them of their own state and their self-determination seems to me the height of arrogance and lack of regard for even basic justice.
TomDaisy
(2,120 posts)
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)Israel is a parliamentary system with 13-14 parties vying for the 120 seats in the Knesset. No single party gets the 61 votes necessary to form a majority government so every government is a coalition of parties cobbled together by the party with the most votes. If I’m not mistaken, Bibi’s party (Likud) got about 30 seats while the #2 party got about 25 seats. So Bibi’s party gets the nod to form the government.
There is no question Bibi is a polarizing figure in Israel (as well as globally) but in 2022 Israelis went to the polls and gave his party the most votes knowing that he would become Prime Minster. He then proceeded to build a coalition of 64 Knesset seats to form a government and as long as he holds that coalition together, he keeps the job until late 2026.
Without exception, every other party in that coalition is further right and more anti-Palestinian than Likud. Also, every other party in that coalition knows that Likud is their best hope of having any voice in the government. If any of them bolt and cause the government to fall, forcing new elections, they risk the possibility that Yair Lapid wins enough seats to form the government. If that happens, the odds are against any of the current government parties having a seat at the table. If, however, Likud takes the top spot (a lower probability imho), they’re right back to where we are today. Net, there is no incentive for any of the coalition parties to topple the government before it ages out in 2026, even if all/most of them want him to prosecute the Gaza war more aggressively.
They know, he’s as aggressive as they’re going to get…and he knows that they’re the only 6 people in Israel he really has to keep happy.
There may be protests in the street because of his actions in Gaza (and from pre-10/7 his judiciary reform bull chit) but the political calculus is easy - if he follows the street protests and goes “soft” on Gaza, he’ll for sure be out of a job tomorrow morning, if he holds his current path, he “might’ be out of a job in 2026. Certain political death tomorrow or possible political death in 2+ years. I’ll take Door Number 2 Monty.
The “people” being angry or not isn’t a variable in the political equation. And I don’t think US holding back funding or some symbolic distancing is going to make a difference to him either. In global politics, nothing is permanent and (again, IMHO) I just don’t think there’s enough pressure that can brought to bear from the outside on a multi-party coalition government like Israel. Like the Middle East in general, Israel probably has the most complex, but democratic, politics of any country in the world. It’s just insane.
The irony of blaming all this on Bibi is that, as crazy as it sounds, he might be the only friend the Palestinians have in the current government. There rest of those num-nutz would be “mowing the lawn” literally. And I realize the term “friend” is all relative in this situation but does anyone want to give someone like Smotrich a bigger voice in the government…that’s like making MTG chair the Judiciary. Yeah - Jordan is a whack doesn’t anyone think MTG would be a better choice.
To be clear, I’m not a Bibi fan by any measure. I don’t vote in Israel but if I did, I’d vote for a ham sandwich over Bibi and I’ve been saying that for years. But hoping that somehow the government is going to fall is a lot like hoping the Senate Republicans were going to convict Trump in 2018…a fun fantasy with no grounding in reality.
LeftInTX
(34,288 posts)Lots of political parties comprise their parliament. Most of their names are in Hebrew, hence very few of us will ever remember their names. And I think they create a few new parties each election. Kinda reminds me of a jigsaw puzzle.
wnylib
(26,009 posts)Didn't Hamas doom them to become hostages when they chose to kidnap them?
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)But it was Netanyahu who kept them there.
Israelis are waking up to that awful fact.
There is kidnapping also in the West Bank. No charges, no trial. Every day. And killing.
wnylib
(26,009 posts)no one knows about, not even Hamas?
I have no interest in defending Netanyahu. I had a very low opinion of him even before the 10/7 attacks. But I also have a problem with excusing the horrific actions of Hamas and the civilians who participated with them in order to stoke up anger at Israel and one man in Israel. Where is Hamas' accountability for their own actions? Where is the anger for Hamas using its own civilians as fodder to protect themselves from the consequences of their actions?
I know that Israelis are angry with Netanyahu for good reasons like his criminal charges from before 10/7, his attempts to alter the justice system to protect his own butt, his dealings with Hamas prior to the attacks. They blame him for not adequately protecting them from such attacks, for a slow response to them initially, and for not getting the hostages back. I'm not sure that he has as much control over the hostage return as people assume. That's not an excuse for him; it's just a recognition of the unreliability and bad faith "negotiations" of terrorists.
Israel has to be accountable for its illegal settlements in the West Bank and its treatment of Palestinians there.
But one thing that especially disturbs me is how easily people on the left defend the actions of the 10/7 terrorists with claims that the victims brought it on themselves. Since when does the left vigorously defend rape by blaming the victims? Not just rape, but torture and mutilation, cutting off breasts, parading raped women in public for cheers. Isn't that like saying, "Oh, he just couldn't help himself because of the way she dressed"? Or the way she walked. Or because she was alone. Or, she's fair game because she's Black, Native American, Hispanic, Asian.....or Jewish.
I'm also horrified by the dead Palestinian civilians. But Israel did not build the underground bunkers. A group like Hamas that does that to its own civilians in addition to its attacks on civilians of other nations has to be destroyed.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)
getagrip_already
(17,802 posts)That's the definition of war. It sucks.
Cha
(319,067 posts)from Isreael on October 7. 
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)AZSkiffyGeek
(12,744 posts)Guess they don’t have a reason to keep them.
Cha
(319,067 posts)Cha
(319,067 posts)
sarisataka
(22,695 posts)And surrendered, would that be a war crime?
AnrothElf
(923 posts)sabbat hunter
(7,110 posts)attacks from this area of Gaza earlier today.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/watch-idf-releases-footage-of-hamas-rocket-attack-on-kerem-shalom/
FBaggins
(28,706 posts)Just the first half.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)
Chakaconcarne
(2,787 posts)Why would we expect anything else from Bibi?
BannonsLiver
(20,594 posts)I guess folks are t even pretending anymore. 🙄
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)
BannonsLiver
(20,594 posts)And it’s not just about Bibi, either. Will leave it at that.
brush
(61,033 posts)earlier today. There were cable news reports of rejoicing and dancing in the streets of Damacus. The WH was said to be studying the terms...so of course Netanyahu attacks even though his negotiation team pretended to be negoatiating.
Such duplicity. Now he gets what he wants, more war and a stay from being tried for corruption because the war continues.
What a warmonger.
AnrothElf
(923 posts)It was HAMAS who turned down those previous ceasefires, because they refused to release hostages. But go ahead and do keep parroting pro-Hamas propaganda.
Could have had a ceasefire months ago. Or an end to the war, altogether. Or they could have never started this war in the first place.
Hamas should surrender. They're fucked, regardless.
Israel isn't willing to unilaterally withdraw and commit to unilaterally ending the war. Gee, I wonder why?! So weird!!!
brush
(61,033 posts)is a time to attack instead of further negotiation for favorable terms?
Come on, I would think most people would prefer talks for better terms than mounting further attacks...most people except warmongers I guess.
Warmonger Bibi attacks, gets more war, a stay from corruption charges and any further talks of a cease fire dashed.
Mission accomplished.
When is Israel going to kick his corrupt ass to the curb.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Just like last time at a critical moment in negotiations, he decided to kill a Hamas leader's 3 granchildren and two children. Sabotage.
brush
(61,033 posts)AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Though that is probably part of it. He holds the same view of Palestinians as his right-wing ministers and much of Israeli society, and the same views on annexation and the elimination of the "Arab problem". It's all for Greater Israel and the settlements. The Gaza "war" is part and parcel of the plan.
brush
(61,033 posts)Netanyahu himself has even said the phrase that put everyone up in arms when protestors chanted it: "From the river to the sea."
Bibi himself said it. He's probably got Jared Kushner lined up to build seaside resorts when the war/job of flattening Gaza is done.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Kushner suggested transferring the civilians to the Negev while the "clean-up" is taking place. I don't think that was in the plan. Bibi and the extremists want them gone - as in "from the Jordan to the sea, there shall only be Israeli sovereignty". - Likud Charter
No wonder there is such uproar over that particular pro-Palestinian chant.
brush
(61,033 posts)happens to them, while Kushner at least has thought of a place to get them out of the way.
How kind of him.
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)announced they had agreed to ceasefire terms that HAMAS wrote, not any sort of unilateral terms. And now you blame Israel? What the actual fuck? If Hamas announced tomorrow that it agreed to ceasefire terms that involved the dissolution of Israel but Israel wouldn’t comply would you still blame Israel?
brush
(61,033 posts)not the state of Isreal, as we know there are huge protests against the warmonger on the streets of Israel because they know he doesn't give a shit about the hostages...just wants the war to continue so he can't be tried for corruption while it's going on.
Take the blinders off and stop believing Bibi's propaganda.
Happyone
(17 posts)Fact check! Please tell the truth.
Response to Happyone (Reply #75)
BannonsLiver This message was self-deleted by its author.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)Hamas informed negotiators on Monday that not all of the 33 hostages who would be freed in the first phase of a possible cease-fire deal with Israel are still living and that the remains of those who have died would be among the initial releases, according to two people familiar with the talks
The disclosure came as part of Hamas’s counteroffer to Israel’s latest proposal, which envisions a first-phase, six-week cease-fire in exchange for the return of some of the hostages taken during the Oct. 7 terrorist attacks. It was not clear whether Hamas revealed how many of the 33 are still alive and how many are dead.
The first group of hostages meant to be freed in the initial phase of the proposed agreement is supposed to include women, older men and the sick and wounded who are among the more than 100 believed still to be held captive. The Israelis initially wanted 40 to be released in the first phase but came to understand that Hamas did not hold that many who fit the criteria. Israeli and American officials have long assumed that some of the hostages may be dead.
snip===============
Israeli officials said that the Hamas counteroffer was not acceptable, but they have agreed to keep negotiating.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/07/us/politics/israel-hamas-hostages-dead.html
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)Hamas informed negotiators on Monday that not all of the 33 hostages who would be freed in the first phase of a possible cease-fire deal with Israel are still living and that the remains of those who have died would be among the initial releases, according to two people familiar with the talks
The disclosure came as part of Hamas’s counteroffer to Israel’s latest proposal, which envisions a first-phase, six-week cease-fire in exchange for the return of some of the hostages taken during the Oct. 7 terrorist attacks. It was not clear whether Hamas revealed how many of the 33 are still alive and how many are dead.
The first group of hostages meant to be freed in the initial phase of the proposed agreement is supposed to include women, older men and the sick and wounded who are among the more than 100 believed still to be held captive. The Israelis initially wanted 40 to be released in the first phase but came to understand that Hamas did not hold that many who fit the criteria. Israeli and American officials have long assumed that some of the hostages may be dead.
snip===============
Israeli officials said that the Hamas counteroffer was not acceptable, but they have agreed to keep negotiating.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/07/us/politics/israel-hamas-hostages-dead.html
Happyone
(17 posts)lapucelle
(21,061 posts)Hamas did not accept the ceasefire framework that Israel was party to and that Blinken had urged Hamas to accept. They tendered a counteroffer.
US State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller pushes back on Hamas’s claim yesterday that it had accepted the ceasefire proposal that was on the table.
Israel had agreed to what US Secretary of State Antony Blinken described as a “generous” hostage deal proposal late last month,” Miller explains at a press briefing. “That’s the offer that was on the table.”
“Hamas seemed to make clear in their public statements that they accepted that offer yesterday. That is not what they did. They responded with amendments or a counter-proposal, and we’re working through the details of that now,” he says, noting that CIA chief Bill Burns is in Cairo along with delegations from Israel, Hamas and Qatar.
snip-------------------------------------
“I don’t blame the reporting. It’s what the [Hamas] statement said. But it’s not an accurate reflection of what happened… Hamas did not accept a ceasefire proposal. Hamas responded and in their response made several suggestions.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-hamas-claimed-to-accept-ceasefire-offer-but-thats-not-what-they-did/
===============================
If facts are important, *anyone* who is amplifying counterfactual claims should proceed with caution lest misinformation slip into disinformation.
Welcome to DU.
Hamas agreed to peace terms dictated by Hamas?!11 what a stunning development. 🙄
brush
(61,033 posts)The huge crowds of protestors in Israel are there because they know he doesn't give a shit about the hostages, just wants the war to continue so he won't be tried for corruption while it's going on.
Apparently his stooges still believe everything that comes out of his corrupt mouth.
Hamas announced Monday it has accepted an Egyptian-Qatari cease-fire proposal, but Israel said it was studying the offer, leaving it uncertain…
Hamas did not develop the ceasefire proposal!
BannonsLiver
(20,594 posts)
Happyone
(17 posts)Hamas says it approves of Egyptian-Qatari cease-fire proposal, but Israel says plan has "significant gaps" (is the headline in the article)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/working-hamas-accepts-ceasefire-deal/
brush
(61,033 posts)Such duplicity...pretending to negotiate for a cease fire, then attacking the same day it's announced that Hamas approved it...you can't get more untrustworthy than that.
It was all over cable news earlier today about the cease fire news. It was reported that people in Damascus were rejoicing and dancing in the streets, but Bibi had a different agenda than the ones his negotiators were pretending to have.
Such a warmonger Netanyahu is. Back and forth with this guy, the WH must be completely disgusted. Everyone's hopes were up, now they're dashed again as of course now there is no longer a hope for a cease fire as the war continues.
What an untrustworthy fucker that Netanyahu is.
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)1. Attacking a concert and shooting, burning and raping hundreds of civilians at said concert, raping and mutilating hundreds more women, shooting and burning families in their cars and homes, and taking hundreds of civilian hostages, many of which you proceed to abuse, rape and murder. OR
2. Refusing to agree to a ceasefire with the group responsible for everything in choice 1 because that group unilaterally changed the terms of the ceasefire
brush
(61,033 posts)take the blinders off and stop defending Netanyahu. He failed to protect the nation by re-enforcing the border even though he was warmed months before that a big attack was coming.
And then on the day of the attack, he failed to deploy the IDF for multiple hours to chase away the attackers. Many of those people you mention died and women were raped, hostages taken because Bibi for some reason didn't sent in the IDF.
WHY? Aren't you curious about that? There's still no explanation from your hero.
The nation needs to kick his corrupt ass to the curb. People with sense know he doesn't give a shit about the hostages, just wants the war to continue so he won't be tried.
Again, take the blinders off. View link below of huge street protest in Israel to kick the government out and end the war. People are not stupid, not fooled by Netanyahu anyore.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1134140650
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)When have I ever praised Netanyahu? But to be clear, Hamas is essentially the equivalent of the Nazi party, with the same goals.
brush
(61,033 posts)He has done the nation of Israel no favors with his pre-war failures and subsequent conduct of the war.
LexVegas
(6,959 posts)sarisataka
(22,695 posts)If you are a Jew.
Cha
(319,067 posts)Allowed to shoot Rockets and kill Israeli soldiers at the border and block the Humanitarian Aid?
And wound 12 others Critically?
sarisataka
(22,695 posts)It is the same reason October 7 was cheered while innocent blood was still being spilled
Cha
(319,067 posts)All Mf!
AZSkiffyGeek
(12,744 posts)See Mandela.
madaboutharry
(42,033 posts)They thought they could make an announcement that they accepted the deal on the table, putting the ball in Israel's court. They forgot that people all over the world know how to read.
Hamas is a genocidal terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews everywhere. They are not negotiating in good faith because they are a genocidal terrorist organization.
But there are people in this world so far down the propaganda rabbit hole that Israel defending itself against a genocidal terrorist organization are accused of war crimes for fighting a goddamn war that the genocidal terrorst organization started.
Israel is the good faith actor in these hostage negotiations. Sec. Blinken days ago urged Hamas to accept the deal as written. But they can't fucking do that because accepting a deal interferes with their stated goal of the destruction of Israel and the murder of Jews.
And they, Hamas, does not care how many civilians die because of their psychopathic goals.
Sorry not sorry for the bad words, but I am sick of all the bullshit.
Cha
(319,067 posts)Every word is important!
madaboutharry
(42,033 posts)
Cha
(319,067 posts)madaboutharry
(42,033 posts)is my favorite conservative broken clock.
I disagree with much of his thinking, but he writes eloquently about the threats to democracy and the west and he is a dear friend to Israel and the Jewish people.
betsuni
(29,077 posts)None of it makes any sense.
Cha
(319,067 posts)Last edited Tue May 7, 2024, 01:50 AM - Edit history (1)
“There is only one Solution.."
Link to tweet
And "From the River to the Sea"
Link to tweet
It only make sense to those who Atack Israel for everything they do.
betsuni
(29,077 posts)I guess no history majors around to clue these protesters in when repeating those things, as if they would listen.
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)betsuni
(29,077 posts)Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)wouldn't harm a fly.
Get real. They're killers who know what they doing.
betsuni
(29,077 posts)yagotme
(4,135 posts)Last edited Tue May 7, 2024, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)
because they are all racist hatemongers, they kill for fun, and they want to drive all the Palestinians into the sea, and destroy them. They set up Hamas to take the blame for attacks, after all, Netty is the perfect planner, causing the public to decry the poor terrorist group, who really never wanted to hurt anybody, it's just all the scheming of the Israeli government that is behind it all.
ETA:
Just 'cuz you never know...
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)"sarcasm" smilie?
Did you really mean to say this?
yagotme
(4,135 posts)Maybe I was fishing for some reactions...
One never knows, though, I probably should tack one on, you never know around here...
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)Things have been kind of weird around here lately - one never knows.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)Like you said, lately, it's been a lot harder to pull off...
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)are equally killers. Hiding behind a uniform to excuse murder is a piss poor excuse.
He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.
Albert Einstein
yagotme
(4,135 posts)Now, I think I've heard it all.
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)yagotme
(4,135 posts)Shouldn't have outed yourself, now you will be busy answering questions...
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)I could say that you've outed yourself as someone who's indifferent to slaughtered or starving civilians.
As for Einstein I'll just advise you to think about what Einstein said when he was alive.
Do axioms die with the people who uttered them?
Albert Camus is dead. No cause justifies the deaths of innocent people. Albert Camus
yagotme
(4,135 posts)Then you referred to Einstein. Therefore, I assumed you were the dead physicist, come back to life. If not, then you were making your OWN statement, not Einstein's. THAT was the gist of my post. Now, I wonder, did Einstein say that prior to Hitler trying to destroy the world, and us, with others, saving it, or was this a pre-WW2 quote, where a lot of the world was still anti-war? He left Europe, I believe, to escape Naziism, right? I wonder, if our brave military, who it seemed, from the quote, he despised somewhat, were to allow Germany to invade the US, and put him right back under Hitler's thumb? An interesting thought...
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)yagotme
(4,135 posts)
thucythucy
(9,103 posts)was a member of the French resistance, which sent information to the Allies about targets in France, which were then bombed, resulting in thousands of dead French civilians?
And would this be the same Albert Einstein who wrote a letter to FDR urging the US to develop an atomic bomb? You think Einsten didn't know that its use would inevitably result in civilian deaths?
The speech from which your Camus quote was taken was delivered in the 1950s, during the war in what was then French Algeria. During that brutal conflict zealots on both sides specifically targeted civilians as a way of terrorizing their opponants. I doubt Camus would have said the same thing about Allied action against Germany, even if it resulted in civilan deaths. And while it's been some time since I read his essays in "Resistance, Rebellion and Death" -- which were mostly or entirely written during WWII -- I don't remember him striking any notable note of pacifism.
I think both Camus and Einstein were a bit more nuanced in their thinking than you give them credit for, especially when it came to defeating fascism and tyranny.
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)As for what Camus and Einstein said it seems to me to be clear. Killing civilians is wrong and even "nuanced" they're still dead because somebody killed them.
What I think is that to stop the madness is to not participate in the slaughter. It has to come down to an individual choice of killing, maiming, torturing, starving, innocent civilians because somebody tells me to? Of course, the military tries it's best to remove the responsibility of murder by dehumanizing the people to be killed. They were reduced to being the "enemy" even if they posed no threat. When I was in the military we were told to think of people as undifferentiated "targets" to be "eliminated". Not as people, men, women, children. Just "targets", "collateral damage", "unfortunate but necessary" etc. They were individual victims, millions of them, who all died for someone's "just cause".
I want no part of it.
flying_wahini
(8,275 posts)He has little or no concern for WHO he kills. If they are living in Gaza they ARE enemies of Israel.
He has made it clear wants to level the whole area and let the chips fall where they may.
Even though the US is a target of scorn across the world, he doesn’t care.
Israel has claimed ALL of Gaza. This will not be something Iran and other countries there forget about.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Sadly.
Worse, much worse is that a lot, if not most, Israelis agree with him and support this war exactly as it's been conducted. A minority wanted worse, and I hope we won't see that in Rafah now.
He wouldn't do it otherwise.