My DNA test says I am from the Levant.

[Eko]

Does that mean I have a right to claim land there?

[tritsofme]

1. Give it a try and let us know how it works out.

[Eko]

3. You didn't answer my question.

[tritsofme]

6. You didn't take my suggestion.

[Eko]

7. My question was first.

[tritsofme]

12. Time is relative.

[Eko]

15. If you cant answer it then just don't answer it

No need to resort to the existential to evade the question.

[tritsofme]

29. I've encouraged you go give it a try. Don't evade your own dreams.

[bif]

50. Why does almost every thread turn nasty?

Like a bunch of 5-year olds

[tritsofme]

51. I believe that was the only purpose of this thread.

[bif]

54. You're probably right.

[yardwork]

73. This is one of the nastiest OPs I've seen in 20 years on DU.

So there's that.

[Sympthsical]

87. I typed and deleted a response

Because . . . nothing that comes out of my keyboard in response would be allowed, lol.

I had to walk off and tie my shoes. Just to regain faith in the human mind for a moment.

[Ponietz]

2. I dare say most Europeans' and Anglo-Americans' ancestors came through the levant at one point

As of what year? That’s a problem with those tests. We’re all African.

[Eko]

4. Why does the year matter?

[Ponietz]

9. Well, if it's 585 B.C. you might be a Babylonian descendant

If it’s 63 A.D. you could be Roman. Virtually no geographical area has a static, homogeneous population. Humans have been on the move since before prehistory. Everyone came from somewhere, and before that, somewhere else, to get where they are. It’s arbitrary to fix one’s descent to a particular locale unless there’s a date to go with it and, even then, populations were mixing.

[Eko]

10. So you are saying that just since my ancestors lived there

I don't necessarily have a right to it?

[Ponietz]

13. Yes, just as I don't have a right to Africa

Unless my propaganda can convince those with guns and money that I do.

[Eko]

16. Good point.

[Ponietz]

24. Another thing -- count back the number of generations the past 2500 years

4-5 generations per century, roughly. That’s 100 generations or 2 to the hundredth power. Leaving aside inbreeding, Google says the answer is: 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376, or one nonillion, 267 octillion, 650 septillion, 600 sextillion, 228 quintillion, 229 quadrillion, 401 trillion, 496 billion, 703 million, 205 thousand, 376.

Ancestors. Everyone alive who successfully reproduced 2500 years ago could be my great grandparent.

That’s why race is a false construct.

Before that were Neanderthals, Denisovans, and so on. What I don’t know is if our ideas on race are based on various populations breeding with sister species of homo.

[lindysalsagal]

46. I love DU.

and this thread is why.

[Celerity]

71. massive (profoundly so) overcounting of how many total humans have existed over the past 2500 years + completely wrong

maths

you said

That’s 100 generations or 2 to the hundredth power.

100 generations of humans from 2500 BCE to the present day does not produce 2 to the 100th power (roughly 1.268 nonillion) humans who have existed in that time period, nor ever existed, going back to hominid times millions of years ago

that claim is off by orders of magnitude

I would say the total number of humans and homnids who have existed since 4 million years ago is likely below 160 billion max, and almost certainly well, well below 200 billion max

2 to 20 billion total between 4 million BCE and 200,000 BCE (and, my words, lets double that 20 billion to 40 billion to give every benefit of the doubt)

Hominid population estimates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_demography

It is estimated by J. Lawrence Angel that the average life span of hominids on the African savanna between 4,000,000 and 200,000 years ago was 20 years. This means that the population would be completely renewed about five times per century, assuming that infant mortality has already been accounted for. It is further estimated that the population of hominids in Africa fluctuated between 10,000 and 100,000 individuals, thus averaging about 50,000 individuals. Multiplying 40,000 centuries by 50,000 to 500,000 individuals per century yields a total of 2 billion to 20 billion hominids that lived during that approximately 4,000,000-year time span.

and, roughly, around 120 billion since then:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/how-many-humans-have-ever-lived/

Quantifying Our Ancestors

snip

Quantifying all of humanity requires a firm starting date for when humans became, well, human. Evolution is a gradual process, so figuring out the start date for humankind is no easy task. For the purposes of this exercise, however, the two demographers used 190,000 BCE as the cutoff.

There are two opposing points to consider when thinking about prehistoric humans:

Around the chosen start date, the global cohort of humans was quite small—perhaps as low as only 30,000 individuals.
Before the modern era, lifespans were much shorter, so long stretches of time can actually influence numbers drastically.

With this context and timeframe in mind, the demographers estimate that 109 billion people have lived and died over the course of 192,000 years. If we add the number of people alive today, we get 117 billion humans that have ever lived.

[Ponietz]

72. Hello

Obviously, it’s an impossible astronomical number. 20 generations back, just 400-500 years ago, the number is more than a million. Inbreeding limits, but doesn’t eliminate, the exponential factor.

The point is we’re all very closely related.

[Celerity]

80. it's not an astronomical number, even going back 4 million years, the total number of humans/hominids who ever lived

is likely less than 20 times the current global population

that is an easily understood and conceived of number

The point is we’re all very closely related.

We all have a common ancestor, yes, but the amount of biological variance from then to now is high.

Here are the last widely acknowledged variant species of non modern humans (H. sapiens) to die off . (This, of course is all inside of the Homo family)

Archaic human species may have survived until the beginning of the Holocene, although they were mostly extinct or absorbed by the expanding H. sapiens populations by 40 kya (Neanderthal extinction).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo



snip

[Ponietz]

84. Biological variance among humans is only .1 percent

It is mistaken to assert

high biological variance.

Genetic homogeneity is our lot.

The human genome comprises about 3 × 109 base pairs of DNA, and the extent of human genetic variation is such that no two humans, save identical twins, ever have been or will be genetically identical. Between any two humans, the amount of genetic variation—biochemical individuality—is about .1 percent.

[link:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK20363/#

Impossible means impossible yet you continue to misconstrue.
On a side note, Cole Palmer had an impressive season.
Have a nice day.

[Celerity]

89. ah you remembered I am a Chels girl

fucking Boehly and Clownlake

they have semi destroyed our club atm

Palmer being an exception

so so so many poor buys for £1.1 billion gross transfer spend (an INSANE amount, nothing ever like it in football history) since their take-over

shit buys and loans: (not listing all of the youngsters who may end up bad buys as well)

Moisés Caicedo Brighton & Hove Albion Brighton €116.00m (for the price)
Christopher Nkunku RB Leipzig RB Leipzig €60.00m (if he is perma-damged)
Axel Disasi AS Monaco Monaco €45.00m
Robert Sánchez Brighton & Hove Albion Brighton €28.70m

Enzo Fernández SL Benfica Benfica €121.00m (for the price)
Mykhaylo Mudryk Shakhtar Donetsk Shakhtar D. €88.00m (madness for his quality)
Wesley Fofana Leicester City Leicester €80.40m (we bought a perma wrecked player for mad money, horrific buy)
Marc Cucurella Brighton & Hove Albion Brighton €65.30m (for the price)
Raheem Sterling Manchester City Man City €56.20m
Kalidou Koulibaly SSC Napoli SSC Napoli €42.00m
Benoît Badiashile AS Monaco Monaco €38.00m
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang FC Barcelona Barcelona €12.00m
João Félix Atlético de Madrid Atlético Madrid Loan fee: €11.00m


and right before (under the Roman regime)

Romelu Lukaku Inter Milan Inter €113.00m (arrrrrf)
Saúl Ñíguez Atlético de Madrid Atlético Madrid Loan fee: €5.00m

[Ponietz]

90. 6th place still possible

and a great opportunity to exceed Messchester U. Keep Madueke!

[Celerity]

92. yes, 6th is the target. We absolutely bollocksed up the 2 blown lead draws versus the 2 worst teams in the EPL

Especially the home game versus a 10 man (40th minute red card) dregs of a Burnley side





those 4 dropped points are just killing us atm

Sheffield U is just so so dire

Not quite at 2007/ 2008 Derby level, but still, they are one of the 5 or so worst EPL sides in the last 15 years

2007–08 Derby County F.C. season

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_Derby_County_F.C._season

Derby were officially relegated on 29 March 2008 after their 2–2 home draw with fellow strugglers Fulham and Birmingham City's 3–1 victory over Manchester City left them 19 points away from safety with only 6 games left.

This made Derby the first club in Premiership history to be relegated in March and the first since Sheffield United in 1975-76 to go down from the top flight from that month, at the time only the second time it had ever happened in post-war English Football league history, before Huddersfield Town were relegated in March 2019.

They also accumulated the league's lowest points total since the introduction of 3 points for a win with just 11 points, as well as the record for the fewest wins in a Premier League season with just one victory in 38 games; also most defeats (29), fewest goals scored (20), most goals conceded in a 38-game season (89); the latter record has since been broken by Sheffield United (2023-24).

[OAITW r.2.0]

102. 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 what does this number mean?

You can't be saying this was the total # of humans/near humans that ever existed, right?

[Ponietz]

105. Right

2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents and so on back 100 generations. It’s an impossible number so one concludes we are all related more closely than we presume, and directly, with those 2500 years ago.

[malaise]

33. Unless my propaganda can convince those with guns and money that I do.

Profound

[róisín_dubh]

38. Most commercial DNA tests...

only go back about 200-220 years, fwiw

[RockRaven]

5. Everyone with ANY bit of ancestry outside of Africa has Levantine ancestry,

given that it was the geographical bottleneck for leaving the continent on foot.

So that's ~7 billion more claims to that land on an ancestral basis... What could go wrong?

[Eko]

8. What could go wrong?

It's not like the people living there have more of a claim to that land than I do, right?

[RockRaven]

17. Apparently some think not, and if they want to employ that line of reasoning,

then they ought to be very thorough about it.

Intellectual consistency is a hallmark of a well ordered and morally sound mind. Surely applying their standard scrupulously honestly won't lead to a total chaotic clusterfuck.

I mean, how hard could it be to coordinate 7 billion people claiming their geoheritage?

[Eko]

20. Well said.

[wnylib]

42. What specific region of the Levant are you claiming?

The term Levant covers a wide area that includes several modern nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant

[RobinA]

67. Wait! I, For One,

don't want that land. I just want to go back a couple hundred years and find my land in England or Scotland. Actually, I would be happy to go back a mere 130 years to my ancestral land on the western end of Cornwall. Somebody else can have my plot in Ulster.

[Happy Hoosier]

11. I think ancestral claims...

… to the land is largely beside the point now. Both Jews and Arabs have a history there, bit we ave to deal with reality as it exists now. Israel has existed for over 75 years at this point. It isn’t going anywhere. We need to be seeking a sustainable, peaceful solution. In my view that can only mean a two-state solution.

[LudwigPastorius]

14. Dunno.

But, if Trump wins, it probably means you have a right to be rounded up and deported.

[Eko]

18. Not sure what that has to do with anything

as I will be voting for President Biden. Are you implying that I would do other than that?

[okaawhatever]

49. No I think they're jokingly pointing out that that if Trump is elected claiming to be from the Levant will only get you

deported.

[getagrip_already]

53. actually, voting for biden is probably all you need to get deported.....

or being a registered dem.

citizenship is just a word, not a right, to some people.

[DavidDvorkin]

19. Have nations been trying to kill you and your relatives for centuries

So that the Levant is the only place you feel safe?

[Eko]

21. Yes.

[DavidDvorkin]

30. The Levant is the only place you feel safe?

[wnylib]

43. If you can't give a more specific ancestry than the Levant,

which covers a huge area, how would you be able to answer yes?

AFAIK, there is no one claiming land in "the Levant" - or anywhere else - based on DNA tests.

[yagotme]

61. Until now. There's a first for EVERYTHING!!!

[DBoon]

60. So where can the Roma feel safe?

nations been trying to kill them and their relatives for centuries. They were sent to Hitler's death camps and almost exterminated as a people.

[DavidDvorkin]

66. Nowhere

That's part of their tragedy.

[Crunchy Frog]

22. Yes.

Based on my own ancestry, I fully intend on seizing a chalet in Switzerland. I think the world would be better if everyone did that sort of thing.

[Eko]

23. Switzerland sounds good.

Rivers and mountains and snow. Can we trade?

[Crunchy Frog]

25. No.

But you can visit if you like.

[ret5hd]

26. Sure. Head on over.

[Mosby]

27. Do Jews have a right to live in the Jewish nation of Israel?

Can you provide a straight answer?

[Eko]

31. Apparently not.

"Per Clause 1 of The Law of Return, all Jews are able to become citizens of Israel, no matter where they were born, with the exception of those who converted to another religion of their own free will."
Straight enough?

[Mosby]

32. If they practice another religion then they're not Jews.

You seem to be focusing exclusively on DNA.

[Eko]

35. If DNA doesn't matter then why do they have a right to be there?

Are you saying that people have a right to live there because that is where their religion came from? Not from where there ancestors came from? If so then don't Christians deserve to live there?

[wnylib]

44. Are you claiming that Israel has no right to exist?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

88. Certainly looks like it

Playing little rhetorical games to avoid saying out loud what they are implying.

[Eko]

94. see post 93

[Eko]

93. I believe Israel has a right to continue to exist.

[Mossfern]

48. Do Jews have a right to live in

Morroco, Saudi Arabia....any other Muslim country....Gaza? Do residents of Muslim countries need to prove by DNA evidence that they have the right to live there?

This is not whataboutism, but holding every nation to the same standard.

[Eko]

95. I think that people have a right to live where they live.

Not a right to live where others live.

[Mossfern]

98. So as a Jewish person I can only live in New Jersey?

And only people who live in Ohio need to live where they live because New Jerseyans live in New Jersey, not Ohio. (just being facetious) Or- if a country does have Jewish people living there, then I can live there - but if there are no Jews, I am not allowed to live there.

How many countries restrict residency to only their chosen religion, banning those of other faiths to live there - or taxing them because of their religion, or killing them because of their religion?

What faith do these countries follow?

Sorry, your answer doesn't make sense to me.

[Eko]

99. As an American you have a right to live in America.

"How many countries restrict residency to only their chosen religion, banning those of other faiths to live there - or taxing them because of their religion, or killing them because of their religion? "
I don't know but I did recently learn that you have to follow the Jewish religion to be a citizen in Israel.
You don't even have to be Jewish to become a citizen, just follow the Jewish religion.

[Mossfern]

100. I didn't know that

I thought there are Muslim and Christians and Atheists who are citizens of Israel. Aren't there Muslim members of the Knesset? I will look that up.

On edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

(that didn't take long)

[Eko]

101. Here.

"Per Clause 1 of The Law of Return, all Jews are able to become citizens of Israel, no matter where they were born, with the exception of those who converted to another religion of their own free will."
I'm not sure how there are members of the Knesset who are Muslim, maybe they were born there? I will look into it. I didn't know about the Law of the Return till someone asked me a question on this thread last night and it made me do some research. Thanks for commenting back and keeping it civil, I appreciate that tons!
Eko.

[Mossfern]

103. I like civil ...

and am always eager to learn.
Anger and Rage are dangerous addicting drugs that will destroy one's soul.

You posted the law of return, but are there other ways that one can become and Israeli citizen?

again, on edit: https://lawoffice.org.il/en/how-to-become-an-israeli-citizen/

You don't need to be Jewish to become and Israeli citizen.
I just learned that now.

[Eko]

104. I found this off your link.

citizenship and immigration (aliyah) to Israel.
It is important to note that there is nothing in the Law of Return, or any other Israeli law, which explicitly states that only Jews will be eligible for immigration / Aliyah to Israel or that non-Jews are not entitled to settle in Israel. However, the Knesset has not enacted (and is not expected to enact in the foreseeable future) any law allowing foreign citizens, who are neither Jewish nor related to a Jewish person, to obtain a permanent legal status in Israel other than on the basis of a relationship with a citizen / resident of Israel.
The link you posted has a lot of good information on it and links to other good info, Thanks!
Eko.

[Mossfern]

106. You are certainly welcome!

I like looking stuff, most often just for shits and giggles.

[Eko]

107. Same, I love learning new things.

Keep on keeponing Mossfern.
Eko.

[yardwork]

114. That says nothing about Arab and other non-Jewish citizens of Israel.

[Eko]

115. Yeah, I should have been more clear.

If you are Jewish and don't believe in the Jewish religion you cant move to Israel to become a citizen. On the flip side Arab and non-jewish citizens from what I found can only become citizens if they were born there or have a relationship with a citizen/resident of Israel. I could be wrong so feel free to give some more info if you know.

[yardwork]

113. Wrong again, honey.

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

There are plenty of Arab and other non-Jewish citizens of Israel.

[Eko]

116. See post 104.

I was talking about immigration, sorry that it wasn't clear.
Thanks,
Eko.

[Mosby]

56. A countries immigration policies is their business.

Indigenous rights aren't just based on DNA, talk to some native Americans about that for clarification.

Israel has every right to give preference to Jews who want citizenship, there are many counties who do that.

What you seem to be having trouble with is the tribal aspects of Judaism. Judaism is an ethnoreligious tradition that has a connection to place, quite similar to native American tribes. Israel is their homeland, has been for over 3500 years. For some reason you don't agree with indigenous rights for Jews, do you have this same issue with NA rights to thier homelands? Why or why not?

[Eko]

96. That's a fair reply.

I am not sure on all of this hence why I asked a question. Do you think that NA should be able to move into your land?
Thanks for the fair reply and question, I appreciate it.
Eko.

[Polybius]

40. Damn, I wish all Catholics had the right to be citizens of some country like that

I'd love a backup option.

[DBoon]

58. There used to be the Papal States

but they have shrunk to just Vatican City.

[RobinA]

68. Wait A Minute

Henry VIII threatened to kill my relatives if they didn't convert to Catholicism, forcing them to pack up their meagre belongings and come here. I used to think that was a good thing!

[DBoon]

62. Do Hindus have a right to live in India?

Of course - others not so much, especially since Modi has held power. See https://www.democraticunderground.com/132118981

Basin national citizenship on one's religion may not be a good idea.

On edit - quote from the article cited in the DU OP:

winning Indian author and journalist Siddhartha Deb, points out that "the Hindu right, they've always been extreme," using "genocidal language" to describe those who do not fit the ethnonationalist image of their "masculine, violent, patriarchal project" and modeling the vision for a Hindu supremacist state after Israel, with its “idea that a strong, muscular, militant majority that are the only people who have the right to [the] nation."

Modi's right win ethno-nationalism draws it inspiration from Israel.

[Mosby]

69. Ethnostates are actually pretty common.

Link to tweet

[Avalon Sparks]

70. No

Not at the expense of oppressing and killing the other people on the land. Absolutely NOT!

[David__77]

112. Do Palestinians?

[LexVegas]

28. Cool story, bro. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Right?!

"Does that mean I have a right to claim land there?"

"Right of Return" is mocked in a way that is supposed to imply Jews around the world can go ANYWHERE in The Levant and "claim land". Gaining citizenship is NOT the same as "claiming land", but they know that; just another day, another dig.

[yardwork]

75. The OP is one of the meanest taunts I've seen here inn20 years.

And that's saying a lot. I've seen posts taunting gay people and women that were just awful, but this one takes the cake.

Apparently it is open season on taunting Jews. And I say that as a person with zero DNA "from the Levant."

[Eko]

97. I apologize if this comes across as a mean taunt.

I did not mean it that way at all and I once again apologize. I do come from the Levant per my DNA test and I asked the question honestly.

[betsuni]

109. +1

[Ponietz]

91. Aren't settler citizens claiming land?

Last edited Thu May 9, 2024, 05:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Aren’t citizenship and claiming land coextensive for some when a government permits and enables it? They were, here, in the 19th century U.S.

Is “might makes right” intractable from being human?

[Silent3]

34. And the second question: Would you want to?

Can't say the neighborhood has much to recommend it these days.

[Mountainguy]

36. Sure, but youll need to be able to defend it

[róisín_dubh]

39. I have DNA from the Levant as well.

Doesn’t mean you’re from there and the tests only go back about 8 generations.
I’m currently petitioning 3 governments for passports on 3rd generation grounds and that’s not getting very far. Good luck going back further

[brooklynite]

45. Do you have relatives there now?

Sounds like the pro-Gaza "occupiers" argument against the Israelis, when in fact British Mandate Palestine was always occupied by Jews and Arabs. All the 1947 UN decision did was partition the property into a Jewish State and a Palestinian State....until Jordan and Egypt occupied the Palestinian lands and the Arab nations attempted to invade Israel.

[lindysalsagal]

47. and this concludes our DU sense-of-humor station identification.

Thank you for participating. Results mixed.

[sarisataka]

52. Have you tried registering with the UNRWA?

They will likely support your right of return, if you claim ancestry in the correct area of the Levant

[JustAnotherGen]

59. Seriously?

That' s really interesting. Makes me wonder if Indigenous Americans would allow that beyond 2 generations?

[sarisataka]

63. They would have to lobby the UN

to set up a special refugee agency which promotes the right of return, even if you have never been there.

TBF the UNRWA doesn't let just anyone return to the Levant. It is a very large area ranging from Greece to Iran to a portion of Libya and all the countries between. The UNRWA says only certain people and all of their descendants from relatively small portion of that area get to return. If you are from another area of the Levant and have been forced out, well tough cookies.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. No

My husband is now a dual citizenship American. His family can literally be traced back to the 8th century in a church that at one time was greek orthodox and now Roman Catholic. His region of Italy was considered Greece until about the the late 8th century. 3 of the siblings look Greek, two are blond haired blue eyed with traces of their great great Eritrean immigrant grandmother (high foreheads, high cheekbones).

Our home there has been continuously resided in since the 1500's by a member of his family.

So sharing this to say - he doesn't have any right to just swoop in and take land from Greeks or Eritreans - but they don't have the right to his ancestral townhome either. His Falcone ancestor built these for family members and himself for when he thought he was going to be assassinated. Really crazy interbreeding in the Italian Aristocracy lead to banarama crazy town behavior.

So no - you don't have the right.

ETA - my sister in law took one of those genetic tests in Genoa. They have light smatterings of british and Indian connections. Makes sense - since the Romans and Greeks gotta round - if you know what I mean.

[JustAnotherGen]

57. Here's a cool map

To see whose land you reside on now . . .




Through my dad's mom - I'm the last generation of her bloodline to recognized as a Cherokee tribe member. Only ONE of my cousins has married a Cherokee Indian, so her family line will continue.

However, I live on Lenape Land.

[Torchlight]

64. A right as defined by what or whom?

Lacking a definitive and collectively shared answer to that, 'rights' will be defined in the moment as whatever best suits any one person's argument for any given discussion.

[DBoon]

65. Maybe your closest relative in the Levant is a Hamas official

In that case I'm not sure where you could live.

[Elessar Zappa]

74. Clever.

[ExciteBike66]

76. You need an old old leather bound book they claims some gods gave it to you

[brush]

77. A right of return? How many generations since your ancestors left for greener pastures?

[Model35mech]

78. Yes how long ago... did that test relate to Neanderthal DNA?

Not to say anything about the original poster, but most of us have Neanderthal DNA and the narrative is that Neanderthals (or their immediate ancestors) spent a lot of time in the middle east before trekking into Europe.

[brush]

81. Yep, many trekked to Europe. Guess the question is should a right of return be a matter of...

Millenniums, or centuries or a few decades or a single decade even.

I know if I left a room, apartment, house or land for any of those lengths of time without paying to maintain it, to feel entitlement to come back and reclaim it...most would think I was nuts. And so would most legal minds.

[Model35mech]

85. Ya, I've checked on that... and the answer is

God doesn't go back on a promise

[brush]

86. Heehee. To agree to that I guess you have to have faith.

What if one is an agnostic or an atheist and don't think that alleged promise would hold up in any court?

[Crunchy Frog]

108. Should contemporary geopolitics be based on the ancient myths of a single group of people?

[Model35mech]

110. Maybe not, but geopolitics is also about the power of identity myths

and it seems that over the millennia the notion of being chosen by god(s) and gifted by god(s) is persistent

It seems that establishment, development of identity myths keeps emerging. That they continue to be rather fiercely defended suggests there is nothing really ancient about it.

And the reason seems to be that having the power to impose identity myths on others has been, is, and will offer geopolitical benefit to those who can pull it off.

Seems to me that recent backlash to and proposed bans on US citizens merely criticizing Israeli policy is evidence of such power. The willingness to suppress reporting of anti-genocide, anti-ethnic cleansing as supporting Pro-palestinian positions whose proponents have little or no geopolitical authority shouldn't go unanalyzed. Part of which must admit there really is no denying 75 years of quite successful application of geopolitical influence on the US to promote Palestinians as evil bad guys with no valid cause.

[David__77]

111. Geopolitics is foremost about power. Ideology keeps the parts working together.

People need to determine what system they think is best.

Personally, I think it is best when states are “of their citizens,” period, regardless of stated or perceived nationality.

[AloeVera]

82. Yes. How many generations?

Now if you could take that thought just a little further..

[brush]

83. Yes, see post 81 for a continuation of the thought.

[sakabatou]

79. Mine would too, if you went back far enough

I know that my family (great-grandparents) were from the former Russian Empire/Tsardom..