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JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
Wed May 8, 2024, 10:40 AM May 8

Israel Verifies Death of 38 Hostages Who Were Believed to Be Alive

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye-on-palestine/hamas/israel-verifies-death-of-38-hostages-who-were-believed-to-be-alive/2024/05/08/
Prof. Ofer Merin, director of Shaare Zedek Hospital in Jerusalem and member of the committee to examine the state of the hostages, told Reshet Bet Radio on Wednesday morning that Tuesday’s announcement of the murder of the Israeli hostage Lior Rudaeff followed a new video that arrived last weekend.

“We are talking about completely new materials,” Dr. Merin said. “Quite a few photographed materials arrived this week, including a video that was not available before. Those Hamas people were very busy with the documentation — they took pictures with GoPro cameras and other cameras,” Marin revealed.


Mr. Rudaeff was an ambulance driver. His father is turning 89 - and it appears there is now a two month old grandbaby in the family . . . that he never got to meet.

Out of the 132 Israeli hostages in Hamas’s captivity, 38 have been verified dead.

Article explains that some of these people have been dead since October 7 - but the Gazan Leadership (GL) aka Hamas have held onto the corpses - possibly for exchange for live prisoners in Israel.

That leaves 94 souls still being held captive by a brutal, vicious group of rapists and murderers.

The committee “was established about a week after the start of the war with the understanding that we were not receiving any information from Hamas about who was kidnapped and in what condition,” Prof. Merin explained. “We received reports from people and saw images on security cameras in localities where some of the kidnapped were dragged as bodies, which became clear at an early stage. It took the state time to understand that out of the 240 hostages, some were kidnapped as bodies and are no longer among the living.”

“We have a moral and emotional obligation to share with the families any available information, and when the committee sits, it meets for hours on the materials. We sit and analyze and go over again and again, we convey the findings and try to be sharp because the goal of the committee is to remove doubts. As soon as we reach sharp conclusions, we pass them along,” he said.

98 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Israel Verifies Death of 38 Hostages Who Were Believed to Be Alive (Original Post) JustAnotherGen May 8 OP
I cannot begin to express my outrage, anger, and frustration PCIntern May 8 #1
and this is why the IDF went into Rafah.. agingdem May 8 #10
With Netanyahu and the IDF? TeamProg May 8 #21
"Proped up" Mountainguy May 8 #40
Read this link, it explains the history of the Bibi's relationship with Hamas. TeamProg May 8 #46
Ive read it the dozen other times you posted it Mountainguy May 8 #62
Deflecting blame for Hamas's terrorism doesn't help win hearts and minds. yardwork May 8 #52
From the River the the Sea is (was) clearly the goal for BOTH sides. So, yes, that creates terrorism as a response to TeamProg May 8 #59
No With Fucking Genocidal Bloodthirsty HAMAS Cha May 8 #95
Ditto. NCDem47 May 8 #53
I'm right there with you. yardwork May 8 #54
Such chutzpah! Mossfern May 8 #2
Are you aware that Israel does this all the time. Big Blue Marble May 8 #64
I think it's simple for Hamas Johnny2X2X May 8 #3
Hamas will be kneecapped if they don't have tunnels. LeftInTX May 8 #70
Exchanging prisoners for hostages encourages terrorists wnylib May 8 #93
Savages. This is an outrage. jimfields33 May 8 #4
In before the terrorist apologists blame Netanyahu for this NT AZSkiffyGeek May 8 #5
What "terrorist apologists"? obamanut2012 May 8 #17
Hahahahahaha BannonsLiver May 8 #20
The ones Mountainguy May 8 #42
I haven't seen that. Link? Think. Again. May 8 #77
Too late. yardwork May 8 #55
Well, I was in before... AZSkiffyGeek May 8 #57
Pavlovian. yardwork May 8 #61
Too late.. for a "Both Sides" anyway. Cha May 8 #94
K&R betsuni May 8 #6
Nothing justifies this. BannonsLiver May 8 #7
This will be ignored sarisataka May 8 #8
Most of the dead ones nocoincidences May 8 #9
But then there's this, from another DU post today TheRickles May 8 #11
That's evil JustAnotherGen May 8 #13
People with their eyes open saw those images. nocoincidences May 8 #14
The same people JustAnotherGen May 8 #15
Anyone can be labeled a "journalist." Those 60 are being intentionally blind. SunSeeker May 9 #96
Oh geez... LeftInTX May 8 #63
To the pro-Hamas supporters "from the river to the sea" that harass Jewish students, AZLD4Candidate May 8 #12
Or claim JustAnotherGen May 8 #16
Post removed Post removed May 8 #18
There were claims here yesterday mcar May 8 #36
Yup. blame the victim JohnSJ May 8 #92
"That leaves 94 souls still being held captive by a brutal, vicious group of rapists and murderers. " TeamProg May 8 #19
Yeah, Hamas is responsible for a lot of dead people. nt LexVegas May 8 #23
It's a shame that Netanyahu is totally under Hamas control, then Orrex May 8 #32
A good question to ask JustAnotherGen May 8 #33
Why are you holding Netanyahu to the same standard as Hamas? Orrex May 8 #39
Wait - I've read on this board JustAnotherGen May 8 #47
Hamas is endlessly blamed for every death in this conflict Orrex May 8 #69
They killed some of the hostages before they took them into Gaza LeftInTX May 8 #71
I'm sure that they did, and I'm sure that they killed more in the weeks following Orrex May 8 #74
IDF has retrieved/exhumed these bodies from Gaza themselves. My hunch is, they have informants pointing to graves. LeftInTX May 8 #75
Then that might be the best path forward Orrex May 8 #83
What do you mean? JustAnotherGen May 8 #72
lol. Sure. I've had a post hidden for calling someone a cheerleader Orrex May 8 #73
If the shoe fits... AnrothElf May 8 #79
They didn't need any bullshit excuses to take the hostages TheKentuckian May 8 #76
Hard to forget about 34,000 dead... sarisataka May 8 #24
Are you using THE HOLOCAUST as an EXCUSE for what's happening in Gaza???? TeamProg May 8 #25
Not at all. Can you see however supporters of Palestinians use Gaza as an EXCUSE to piss on the HOLOCAUST? sarisataka May 8 #26
Is that what you are seeing / believing? Let me think about how that would work.. TeamProg May 8 #41
Nice deflection and poor cherry-picking of history sarisataka May 8 #48
If a group of protesters is attempting to link the Holocaust to the ethnic cleansing / genocide that is currently TeamProg May 8 #56
That is the closest to common ground I have been able to find sarisataka May 8 #58
Still Japan. They had the option that they eventually took once TheKentuckian May 8 #80
"( the USA wanted the rubber)" Rigggght... EX500rider May 8 #84
May i add JustAnotherGen May 8 #90
I have serious questions about whether both A bombs were necessary, thucythucy May 8 #85
Best post I've read at DU JustAnotherGen May 8 #91
I read the material you sent in your PM to me thucythucy May 9 #98
That is not what the poster is saying. revmclaren May 8 #27
Okay, I see, it's about genocide. TeamProg May 8 #50
The Holocaust has nothing to do with failure of Hamas to surrender and release the hostages. TheKentuckian May 8 #78
You betcha! JustAnotherGen May 8 #31
There are still those who doubt October 7 and believe Hamas should be innocent until proven guilty sarisataka May 8 #45
I saw that JustAnotherGen May 8 #51
That's absolute fact mcar May 8 #37
cease fire now! et tu May 8 #22
Without provoking anyone... LakeVermilion May 8 #28
That's been my thought for some weeks Orrex May 8 #34
So - can't Hamas fess up? JustAnotherGen May 8 #38
Lack of food and the IDF flattening everything in site Omnipresent May 8 #60
Being kidnapped, raped and tortured ensures that many of the hostages have long since passed on AZSkiffyGeek May 8 #65
"Thanks for fixing that"... Omnipresent May 8 #66
Your welcome! AZSkiffyGeek May 8 #67
.... Omnipresent May 8 #68
* you're RandiFan1290 May 8 #88
Fair enough... AZSkiffyGeek May 8 #89
I'm sure that I'm being dense, but........ mjvpi May 8 #29
No - when you read the article JustAnotherGen May 8 #35
Revenge is a fatal disease. All blood is red. All tears salty. mjvpi May 8 #44
Revenge? JustAnotherGen May 8 #49
Revenge? The attacks continue and the hostages still captured TheKentuckian May 8 #82
Geeeeebz. More families suffer horrific shocks! electric_blue68 May 8 #30
Hamas is evil Joinfortmill May 8 #43
Yes, hamas is the epitome of evil. Think. Again. May 8 #81
Hamas has refused to provide proof of life for most of the hostages LetMyPeopleVote May 8 #86
The only recent proof of life is the guy who miraculously survived Hamas blowing his hand off. SunSeeker May 9 #97
Post removed Post removed May 8 #87

agingdem

(7,943 posts)
10. and this is why the IDF went into Rafah..
Wed May 8, 2024, 11:28 AM
May 8

Last edited Wed May 8, 2024, 12:01 PM - Edit history (1)

lesson to all Arab terrorist organizations...don't start a war with Israel if you're not willing to pay the price..

 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
21. With Netanyahu and the IDF?
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:20 PM
May 8

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces.
The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Mountainguy

(693 posts)
62. Ive read it the dozen other times you posted it
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:42 PM
May 8

Have you?

Literally "proped up" is because he allowed money into gaza, held negotiations through intermediaries, and granted increased number of work permits so gazans could enter Israel for high paying work.

yardwork

(62,027 posts)
52. Deflecting blame for Hamas's terrorism doesn't help win hearts and minds.
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:18 PM
May 8

It just makes people angry and disgusted.

 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
59. From the River the the Sea is (was) clearly the goal for BOTH sides. So, yes, that creates terrorism as a response to
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:33 PM
May 8

being invaded by "settlers".

NCDem47

(2,280 posts)
53. Ditto.
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:18 PM
May 8

My biggest fear from Day One was that very, very few of those hostages were coming back alive.

Mossfern

(2,641 posts)
2. Such chutzpah!
Wed May 8, 2024, 10:51 AM
May 8

To keep the bodies of dead Israels as collateral in exchange for Gazan prisioners.
I urge Israel not to give up any prisoners for hostages.
How some people don't see how depraved this is is amazing.

Big Blue Marble

(5,174 posts)
64. Are you aware that Israel does this all the time.
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:50 PM
May 8

Keeps the bodies of prisoners and those they kill and not allow the
families to bury their dead.

Johnny2X2X

(19,648 posts)
3. I think it's simple for Hamas
Wed May 8, 2024, 10:52 AM
May 8

Return the 94 hostages immediately and a permanent cease fire happens. But going forward, Israel will not be dealing with Hamas as a legitimate government of Gaza. Absent that, Israel will not stop until they feel Hamas has been diminished to a point they are no longer a threat (I don't think this is possible without obliterating Gaza).

Hamas wants to hold onto some hostages because they feel it's the only leverage they have to ramin in power.

LeftInTX

(26,261 posts)
70. Hamas will be kneecapped if they don't have tunnels.
Wed May 8, 2024, 02:38 PM
May 8

Will Hamas be gone? No.
But their arms shipments will stop.
They will no longer have sources of rocket launchers, missiles etc.

Hamas will still have guns and power, but their ability to overwhelm the Iron Dome with 5,000 rockets at once will be gone

wnylib

(22,221 posts)
93. Exchanging prisoners for hostages encourages terrorists
Wed May 8, 2024, 09:17 PM
May 8

to continue taking hostages because they get rewarded each time.

The dilemma for Israel is whether to carry out such exchanges and then deal with it happening again or to refuse and guarantee that the hostages will be killed in horrendous ways that would be filmed by terrorists.

nocoincidences

(2,249 posts)
9. Most of the dead ones
Wed May 8, 2024, 11:26 AM
May 8

are likely to be the beautiful young women who they paraded around who had already been raped bloody, like Naama Levy. They used them up the first few days of captivity.

Castration. Decapitation. Too kind for such monsters.

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
13. That's evil
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:00 PM
May 8

I saw the video taken by Hamas of women with blood flowing from their crotches and derrieres. So those journalism professors can shove right off. They are being evil little liars.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181

nocoincidences

(2,249 posts)
14. People with their eyes open saw those images.
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:02 PM
May 8

But too many people have their eyes glued shut screaming la la la la la so they can claim it never happened.

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
15. The same people
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:07 PM
May 8

Who don't understand that the Gaza pull out was unilateral -

Israel even went to the extent of removing corpses from graves. This is a really big deal in Judaism. Having attended family members funerals and the rapid pace at which we had to get there for my mom's paternal family? This was a big freaking deal!

Ariel Sharon shoved that agreement through the government with the thinnest of margins in the belief that it would lead to peace. All shutting down those 21 settlements did was embolden Hamas to take over in 2007 - and give their Political Leadership agency in the world. Mr. Sharon could not have imagined an October 7 incident.

SunSeeker

(52,200 posts)
96. Anyone can be labeled a "journalist." Those 60 are being intentionally blind.
Thu May 9, 2024, 01:39 AM
May 9

How can they claim there is no source when there are literally thousands of sources? They can start by watching this: https://www.screamsbeforesilence.com/

To continue to doubt that Hamas committed systematic rape on 10/7 is akin to holocaust denial.

AZLD4Candidate

(5,918 posts)
12. To the pro-Hamas supporters "from the river to the sea" that harass Jewish students,
Wed May 8, 2024, 11:53 AM
May 8

I don't think they will care. They will pull out Hamas created numbers of death, claim genocide with no actual evidence, attack Jews, insult Yom Hashoah, and do it with a hint of shame.

The hostages that died, according to them, were zionists and "all zionists need to be executed."

We all know what zionist is code for.

Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #16)

 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
19. "That leaves 94 souls still being held captive by a brutal, vicious group of rapists and murderers. "
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:15 PM
May 8

Huh, I dunno, sounds a little biased to me.

Hard to forget about 34,000 dead Palestinians and bombed out homes, schools, hospitals and the torture experienced by IDF prisoners.

But that's just me.






Orrex

(63,427 posts)
32. It's a shame that Netanyahu is totally under Hamas control, then
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:54 PM
May 8

Does he have no agency in this? Is he helplessly driven along by whatever Hamas wishes him to do?

Or does there, in reality, come a point at which Netanyahu can be held accountable for tens of thousands of dead Palestinians?

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
33. A good question to ask
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:56 PM
May 8

Once all of the innocent Israelis who have nothing do with Netanyahu are release from captivity by their kidnappers.

Orrex

(63,427 posts)
39. Why are you holding Netanyahu to the same standard as Hamas?
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:02 PM
May 8

Do we demand no better from our lavishly-funded allies?

The reality is that the hostages are indeed likely dead, some of them even through IDF action. So what then? Does Netanyahu continue killing civilians until the hostages are no longer dead?

Hamas must be destroyed, but no one has explained how killing Palestinian children will achieve that.

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
47. Wait - I've read on this board
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:07 PM
May 8

That Netanyahu is 'controlled by Hamas'. Why wouldn't we equate them with each other?

August 2005
As Pullout Nears, Gaza’s Graves a Stumbling Block
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-aug-11-fg-graves11-story.html

Their corpses are NOT supposed to be there. I think they could easily transport all 130 + corpses to a border crossing and then negotiate - but that's just me.

Orrex

(63,427 posts)
69. Hamas is endlessly blamed for every death in this conflict
Wed May 8, 2024, 02:07 PM
May 8

If that bullshit claim is true, then one can reasonably infer that Netanyahu is helpless under Hamas control as he continues his policy of collective punishment.

See, my comment obviously serves to mock that asinine position, and you either disingenuously pretend not to understand, or else you fail to see the obvious, for reasons that I won’t risk the TOS to state openly.

How do you imagine Hamas might easily transport a gross of corpses? With what vehicles? On what roads? Why would they put themselves in the crosshairs simply to cart bodies to a location that just you would choose? And why would they believe that returning the bodies would end Netanyahu’s brutal campaign?

And honestly, they’re probably more concerned with 200X as many Palestinian corpses in the meantime.

LeftInTX

(26,261 posts)
71. They killed some of the hostages before they took them into Gaza
Wed May 8, 2024, 03:02 PM
May 8

Part of Shani's skull was found in Israel. Hamas paraded her body around Gaza
Associated Press Defends Image of Murdered Nova Reveler in Hamas Truck After Award
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/associated-press-defends-image-murdered-042705647.html

They were thought to be hostages in Gaza. Israeli raids found they were dead.
NETANYA, Israel — For five nightmarish months, the parents of Daniel Perez and Itay Chen thought their sons, both soldiers based at a military outpost less than a mile from the Gaza border on Oct. 7, were being held hostage by Hamas in conditions they could hardly bear to think about. They lobbied and prayed for their sons’ release.

Then, last month, the Israeli army made a devastating announcement based on battlefield intelligence gleaned during its ground operation in Gaza: The two men had been killed on Oct. 7, and their bodies dragged into Gaza.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/07/israel-soldiers-hostage-gaza-funerals/

From yesterday:
Presumed hostage Lior Rudaeff confirmed killed on October 7; body was taken to Gaza
https://www.timesofisrael.com/presumed-hostage-lior-rudaeff-confirmed-killed-on-oct-7-body-taken-to-gaza/

I don't have the count of how many they did this with. However, they used them for bargaining chips, despite all the civilians deaths surrounding Hamas, they proudly hold on to dead bodies.

Warning from Hamas yesterday. YMMV, but this doesn't sound like grieving to me.

&t=24s&ab_channel=HindustanTimes

From two weeks ago:
“200 days later, the enemy is still stuck in the sands #Gaza with no goal, no horizon, and no retrieving of its captives,” Military spokesman for the Al-Qassam Brigades, Abu Ubaida said in a televised speech.

“One of the lies of the enemy government is its attempt to make the world believe that it has eliminated the Qassam Brigades, leaving only the Rafah Brigades,” Abu Obaida added


'Israel' selling lies, far from defeating Resistance: Abu Obeida
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/-israel--selling-lies--far-from-defeating-resistance--abu-ob



Orrex

(63,427 posts)
74. I'm sure that they did, and I'm sure that they killed more in the weeks following
Wed May 8, 2024, 04:08 PM
May 8

Hamas is a vile terrorist regime that should be wiped from the earth.


But that doesn’t explain how they might readily transport ~130 bodies over ruined roads in trucks that would be a prime target for IDF ordnance .

Also, it would be foolish to expect mournful weeping from a Hamas mouthpiece. What kind of display did you think you’d see?

LeftInTX

(26,261 posts)
75. IDF has retrieved/exhumed these bodies from Gaza themselves. My hunch is, they have informants pointing to graves.
Wed May 8, 2024, 04:12 PM
May 8

Orrex

(63,427 posts)
83. Then that might be the best path forward
Wed May 8, 2024, 05:01 PM
May 8

If the goal is to retrieve the bodies, and since Hamas has proven that we can rely on them only to lie and to murder, then perhaps exhumation will bring the bodies home.

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
72. What do you mean?
Wed May 8, 2024, 03:46 PM
May 8

See, my comment obviously serves to mock that asinine position, and you either disingenuously pretend not to understand, or else you fail to see the obvious, for reasons that I won’t risk the TOS to state openly.


There are a lot of proponents of Free Speech even in private spaces such as DU - they won't have a problem with you spitting it out.

Orrex

(63,427 posts)
73. lol. Sure. I've had a post hidden for calling someone a cheerleader
Wed May 8, 2024, 03:58 PM
May 8

And another for making a G-rated joke about Plastic Man.

Meanwhile I’ve been called an antisemite and a Hamas sympathizer, and those posts were allowed to stand.

So your assurance about free speech is not as reassuring as you might think.

TheKentuckian

(25,128 posts)
76. They didn't need any bullshit excuses to take the hostages
Wed May 8, 2024, 04:19 PM
May 8

so they can return them with a steaming hot cup of shut the fuck up.

Why are you making excuses for hostage taking?

sarisataka

(19,448 posts)
24. Hard to forget about 34,000 dead...
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:29 PM
May 8

Apparently it is easy to forget about the deaths of millions. Or maybe just not care.

Protesters disrupt Auschwitz March of the Living on Yom HaShoah

Unless I forget my history, Auschwitz is a Nazi camp located in Poland for the express purpose of executing Jews, among others, and exploiting slave labor.

Since it predates the state of Israel, protesting a remembrance there doesn't seem to have any direct connection to Israel/Gaza. Such a protest seems instead to target Jews.

But that's just me.

sarisataka

(19,448 posts)
26. Not at all. Can you see however supporters of Palestinians use Gaza as an EXCUSE to piss on the HOLOCAUST?
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:50 PM
May 8
 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
41. Is that what you are seeing / believing? Let me think about how that would work..
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:03 PM
May 8

Okay..

On 6 and 9 August 1945, the United States detonated two atomic bombs over the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The bombings killed between 129,000 and 226,000 people, most of whom were civilians, and remain the only use of nuclear weapons in an armed conflict.

Some people might blame Japan for Nagasaki and Hiroshima b/c Japan destroyed Pearl Harbor.

The truth is, the USA previously threatened war on Japan if they did not leave S E Asia ( the USA wanted the rubber). Following that threat, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

So, who's fault was dropping the bombs?

sarisataka

(19,448 posts)
48. Nice deflection and poor cherry-picking of history
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:10 PM
May 8

Is it simply impossible to say targeting Jews and protesting a Holocaust memorial event for the actions of Israel is wrong?
At least to say poor optics even if you don't think such a protest is morally wrong?

 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
56. If a group of protesters is attempting to link the Holocaust to the ethnic cleansing / genocide that is currently
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:20 PM
May 8

in progress Gaza to garner sympathy for Palestinians, then I can understand their motive, though it is distasteful.


sarisataka

(19,448 posts)
58. That is the closest to common ground I have been able to find
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:23 PM
May 8

I'll take it

ETA> you could follow the link and read the article for yourself about the protesters at the march

TheKentuckian

(25,128 posts)
80. Still Japan. They had the option that they eventually took once
Wed May 8, 2024, 04:28 PM
May 8

their will was broken and obliteration became the clear alternative.

EX500rider

(10,951 posts)
84. "( the USA wanted the rubber)" Rigggght...
Wed May 8, 2024, 05:02 PM
May 8

The US embargoed Japan due to their invasions of Manchuria & French Indochina. They were not big rubber producers.

The US got most of its rubber from Brazil & British Malaya, neither controlled before the war by Japan.

The truth is, the USA previously threatened war on Japan if they did not leave S E Asia
Please link to a reputable source for that.

thucythucy

(8,248 posts)
85. I have serious questions about whether both A bombs were necessary,
Wed May 8, 2024, 05:20 PM
May 8

however, the Japanese government could have agreed to surrender hours days weeks or months before the bombing. Which to my mind means that the leadership of the Japanese military--which by that point had over riding control of the Japanese government--does bear a great deal of responsibility for the civilian casualties of 1944-45.

The fact is that the majority of Japanese civilians would have been no worse off, and many hundreds of thousands would have been saved, if the tiny clique of militarists who ran the government had agreed to surrender. Their reasons for not surrendering had nothing to do with the welfare of the Japanese people, but rather was an effort to protect their own "honor"--and to forestall their own loss of power.

It's also true that the Japanese high command knew the war was lost after the battle of Midway in June 1942, just as the German high command knew their war was lost after January 1943, or July 1943 at the latest.

In both instances the reasons for continuing the wars, with all the resulting death and destruction, had nothing to do with the well being of Japanese or German civilians, but only with the pride, the arrogance, and the self-preservation of the leadership.

Those realities have to be factored in when discussing culpability for the horrific slaughters of 1942 to 1945.

Oh, and please point to me evidence that the US threatened actual war with Japan if its military didn't pull out of SE Asia. Economic embargo, yes, but declaring war? The antiwar movement before December 7 was quite active, and FDR was at pains not to get ahead of public opinion. It's difficult for me to imagine FDR asking Congress for a declaration of war minus the attack on Pearl Harbor. And even after December 7, antiwar feeling was such that FDR waited for Germany to declare war on the US, knowing that asking Congress for such a declaration on Germany was not at all a sure thing.

I find it interesting that you seem to be trying to exonerate the Japanese military for its decision to attack Pearl Harbor. Even the US led embargo of oil--the ostensible reason for the Japanese decision--was only harmful in the context of Japan's continuing aggression against China, which had already resulted in more than a million Chinese deaths--the vast majority of them civilians. Here again, the Japanese government could have ended its war in China with little or no harmful consequence to Japan itself. Considering that you're calling for a US embargo on war material to Israel, why do I get the feeling you think the US embargo on Japan in late 1941 was somehow immoral?

thucythucy

(8,248 posts)
98. I read the material you sent in your PM to me
Thu May 9, 2024, 08:20 AM
May 9

and I don't see anything about the US threatening war with Japan.

What I did read was material I already knew and which is pretty much common knowledge.

Which is that in response to the Japanese occupation of what was then "French Indochina," the US imposed an embargo on various items crucial to Japanese war making ability, most especially an embargo on oil. This embargo would have been lifted if the Japanese military had agreed to withdrew from Indochina and began a serious effort to end its aggression against China. The Netherlands, which at that time controlled the oil fields in Indonesia, also imposed a partial embargo, offering to sell Japan enough oil to meet its peace time needs, but not enough to continue to fuel its war machine. At that point Japan had enough in its oil reserves to fuel its military for another six or eight months, assuming it continued its war against China and its continued occupation of Indochina, after which it would face a crisis.

The Japanese government then had a choice. Agree to the US conditions for a resumption of trade, or go to war in an attempt to seize the resources on its own. Indonesia, at that time "The Dutch East Indies" had oil fields that could potentially make the Japanese military self sufficient. But in order to seize those oil fields Japan would have to make war on the US, the Netherlands, and Great Britain. To protect its connection to the oil it would have to seize the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, and then Indonesia. In order to seize Malaysia it had also to attack and occupy Thailand and Burma, neutralize Australia, destroy the American fleet at Pearl Harbor and the British installations at Hong Kong, Singapore, and Sri Lanka.

In retrospect this course of action was simple insanity. Which is why the Japanese action was so unexpected. As Churchill wrote, it was inconceivable that any sane government would undertake such an absurd enterprise. But, as Churchill went on to say, the one advantage of insanity is that it carries with it the element of surprise.

The fact is Japan is more prosperous today, and its people have a higher standard of living, than it ever had as an imperial power. Its wars--against Manchuria, China, the US, Britain, the Netherlands, Australia and the rest of the British empire, were doomed from the start.

Japan's leaders in 1941 were thus hopelessly deluded and criminally negligent.

One final note: while the US may have "wanted the rubber" this was hardly a reason to threaten, let alone go to war. As it turned out the Japanese occupation of the rubber plantations in Indochina made not one whit of difference when it came to the US waging war. And Japan's near monopoly on the manufacture of rubber did absolutely nothing to forestall its total defeat.

TheKentuckian

(25,128 posts)
78. The Holocaust has nothing to do with failure of Hamas to surrender and release the hostages.
Wed May 8, 2024, 04:26 PM
May 8

What makes you ask?

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
31. You betcha!
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:54 PM
May 8

Hamas is the group holding them - not the Palestinians. Unless all 34K Palestinians engaged in that Pogrom of Rape, Pillage, Murder . . .

By all means - they didn't. I've been told time and again here that Hamas and the Palestinians are two separate entities with zero relationship.

So

a brutal, vicious group of rapists and murderers
is an accurate assessment of Hamas.

Hamas was not kind and gentle on October 7 when they raped women to the point of bleeding from the vaginas and rectums? We all saw the video.

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
51. I saw that
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:13 PM
May 8

sickening - and they are Journalism Professors. I won't actually watch that link - because I'm not a fan of Democracy Now. I feel the same way about them as I do CNN.

mcar

(42,675 posts)
37. That's absolute fact
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:00 PM
May 8

94 hostages are being held by a vicious group of terrorists, rapists and murderers.

They posted videos themselves of their atrocities - tell me again that it's biased?

LakeVermilion

(1,056 posts)
28. Without provoking anyone...
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:51 PM
May 8

I doubt that any hostages are alive. There's a famine in Gaza. Do we think that Hamas is going to feed the hostages, before they feed their families? The time to get the hostages was in November/December.

Orrex

(63,427 posts)
34. That's been my thought for some weeks
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:58 PM
May 8

And for at least as long, I’ve suspected that Netanyahu doesn’t care if the hostages are alive; he’ll most likely use their deaths to elicit support for his ongoing campaign of brutality.

To head off the predictable accusations that I am pro-Hamas and/or antisemitic; Hamas is a horror and should be exterminated to its last member. But how many tens of thousands of civilian deaths are we willing to overlook for the sake of Netanyahu’s bid to stay in power?

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
38. So - can't Hamas fess up?
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:00 PM
May 8

Can't they release their corpses to Israel?

And then this can all be over. The Unilateral Agreement of 2005 required the removal of graves/corpses of long dead Jewish people. I think Hamas is breaking their own laws.

Omnipresent

(5,847 posts)
60. Lack of food and the IDF flattening everything in site
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:34 PM
May 8

Ensures that many of the hostages have long since passed on.

AZSkiffyGeek

(11,356 posts)
65. Being kidnapped, raped and tortured ensures that many of the hostages have long since passed on
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:50 PM
May 8

Fixed it for you!

mjvpi

(1,469 posts)
29. I'm sure that I'm being dense, but........
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:54 PM
May 8

If the hostages are being held by Hamas and the point of the intense bombing is to kill all of the Hamas fighters, won’t the hostages be killed at the same time?

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
35. No - when you read the article
Wed May 8, 2024, 12:59 PM
May 8

Some of the Human Beings / Innocent Captives were identified as corpses on October 7th. . . So by the Unilateral Pull out of Gaza in 2005 - their corpses were never supposed to be brought into Gaza.

Palestinian Leaders wanted no trace of Judaism left in the Gaza strip. Including graves that were exhumed.

JustAnotherGen

(32,292 posts)
49. Revenge?
Wed May 8, 2024, 01:12 PM
May 8

Or getting the hostages back - or their corpses?

As Pullout Nears, Gaza’s Graves a Stumbling Block
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-aug-11-fg-graves11-story.html

The disposition of the graves of Gush Katif, Gaza’s main settlement block, has become one of the most wrenching questions surrounding the evacuation of nearly 9,000 Jewish settlers, which is set to begin Wednesday. The bodies of 48 people are buried in the cemetery, where blue-and-white Israeli flags flap in the searing summer wind and an electrified fence carries a warning sign to keep away.

Funeral and mourning rituals, governed by strict rules pertaining to the handling of bodies, occupy a hallowed place in Jewish tradition. And thus the planned removal of the cemetery, this most literal leaving of the land, has become painfully entwined with the larger battle over whether Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is right to relinquish Gaza, which was seized by Israel in the 1967 Middle East War.

A majority of Israelis support the decision made by Sharon to end Israel’s occupation of a teeming, poverty-stricken strip of territory that is home to more than 1.3 million Palestinians. But settlers and their supporters have struggled determinedly to thwart the uprooting of settlements and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza.

The Israeli government says it is doing all it can to handle the planned exhumations with sensitivity and understanding. But officials quietly complain that the settlers, many of whom still believe that the Gaza withdrawal won’t take place, have resisted all efforts to reach an agreement on details of the bodies’ removal and reburial.



No Israelis - even corpses are supposed to be there. It would probably be a very low risk mission to drive all 130+ to a crossing to end this now.

TheKentuckian

(25,128 posts)
82. Revenge? The attacks continue and the hostages still captured
Wed May 8, 2024, 04:48 PM
May 8

Unconditional surrender is more than appropriate.

LetMyPeopleVote

(147,275 posts)
86. Hamas has refused to provide proof of life for most of the hostages
Wed May 8, 2024, 05:21 PM
May 8

I am not surprised that Hamas has killed a large number of these hostages

Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

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