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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIsrael Verifies Death of 38 Hostages Who Were Believed to Be Alive
https://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye-on-palestine/hamas/israel-verifies-death-of-38-hostages-who-were-believed-to-be-alive/2024/05/08/We are talking about completely new materials, Dr. Merin said. Quite a few photographed materials arrived this week, including a video that was not available before. Those Hamas people were very busy with the documentation they took pictures with GoPro cameras and other cameras, Marin revealed.
Mr. Rudaeff was an ambulance driver. His father is turning 89 - and it appears there is now a two month old grandbaby in the family . . . that he never got to meet.
Out of the 132 Israeli hostages in Hamass captivity, 38 have been verified dead.
Article explains that some of these people have been dead since October 7 - but the Gazan Leadership (GL) aka Hamas have held onto the corpses - possibly for exchange for live prisoners in Israel.
That leaves 94 souls still being held captive by a brutal, vicious group of rapists and murderers.
We have a moral and emotional obligation to share with the families any available information, and when the committee sits, it meets for hours on the materials. We sit and analyze and go over again and again, we convey the findings and try to be sharp because the goal of the committee is to remove doubts. As soon as we reach sharp conclusions, we pass them along, he said.
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PCIntern
(25,999 posts)agingdem
(8,160 posts)Last edited Wed May 8, 2024, 12:01 PM - Edit history (1)
lesson to all Arab terrorist organizations...don't start a war with Israel if you're not willing to pay the price..
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now its blown up in our faces.
The premiers policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Mountainguy
(811 posts)Meaning allowed aid into Gaza.
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)Mountainguy
(811 posts)Have you?
Literally "proped up" is because he allowed money into gaza, held negotiations through intermediaries, and granted increased number of work permits so gazans could enter Israel for high paying work.
yardwork
(62,578 posts)It just makes people angry and disgusted.
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)being invaded by "settlers".
Cha
(300,933 posts)![](/emoticons/storm.gif)
![](/emoticons/nuke.gif)
My biggest fear from Day One was that very, very few of those hostages were coming back alive.
yardwork
(62,578 posts)Mossfern
(2,805 posts)To keep the bodies of dead Israels as collateral in exchange for Gazan prisioners.
I urge Israel not to give up any prisoners for hostages.
How some people don't see how depraved this is is amazing.
Big Blue Marble
(5,381 posts)Keeps the bodies of prisoners and those they kill and not allow the
families to bury their dead.
Johnny2X2X
(20,118 posts)Return the 94 hostages immediately and a permanent cease fire happens. But going forward, Israel will not be dealing with Hamas as a legitimate government of Gaza. Absent that, Israel will not stop until they feel Hamas has been diminished to a point they are no longer a threat (I don't think this is possible without obliterating Gaza).
Hamas wants to hold onto some hostages because they feel it's the only leverage they have to ramin in power.
LeftInTX
(27,748 posts)Will Hamas be gone? No.
But their arms shipments will stop.
They will no longer have sources of rocket launchers, missiles etc.
Hamas will still have guns and power, but their ability to overwhelm the Iron Dome with 5,000 rockets at once will be gone
wnylib
(23,029 posts)to continue taking hostages because they get rewarded each time.
The dilemma for Israel is whether to carry out such exchanges and then deal with it happening again or to refuse and guarantee that the hostages will be killed in horrendous ways that would be filmed by terrorists.
jimfields33
(17,312 posts)Those poor families. This is a huge tragedy.
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,971 posts)obamanut2012
(26,747 posts)BannonsLiver
(17,130 posts)![](/emoticons/rofl.gif)
Mountainguy
(811 posts)Apologizing for terrorists
Think. Again.
(12,562 posts)yardwork
(62,578 posts)AZSkiffyGeek
(11,971 posts)But they have shown up.
yardwork
(62,578 posts)Cha
(300,933 posts)![](/emoticons/candle.gif)
betsuni
(26,625 posts)BannonsLiver
(17,130 posts)That is all.
sarisataka
(19,689 posts)because an Israeli tank ran over a sign, and that's a war crime
nocoincidences
(2,267 posts)are likely to be the beautiful young women who they paraded around who had already been raped bloody, like Naama Levy. They used them up the first few days of captivity.
Castration. Decapitation. Too kind for such monsters.
TheRickles
(2,187 posts)JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)I saw the video taken by Hamas of women with blood flowing from their crotches and derrieres. So those journalism professors can shove right off. They are being evil little liars.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181
nocoincidences
(2,267 posts)But too many people have their eyes glued shut screaming la la la la la so they can claim it never happened.
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)Who don't understand that the Gaza pull out was unilateral -
Israel even went to the extent of removing corpses from graves. This is a really big deal in Judaism. Having attended family members funerals and the rapid pace at which we had to get there for my mom's paternal family? This was a big freaking deal!
Ariel Sharon shoved that agreement through the government with the thinnest of margins in the belief that it would lead to peace. All shutting down those 21 settlements did was embolden Hamas to take over in 2007 - and give their Political Leadership agency in the world. Mr. Sharon could not have imagined an October 7 incident.
SunSeeker
(52,685 posts)How can they claim there is no source when there are literally thousands of sources? They can start by watching this: https://www.screamsbeforesilence.com/
To continue to doubt that Hamas committed systematic rape on 10/7 is akin to holocaust denial.
LeftInTX
(27,748 posts)No words...
AZLD4Candidate
(6,020 posts)I don't think they will care. They will pull out Hamas created numbers of death, claim genocide with no actual evidence, attack Jews, insult Yom Hashoah, and do it with a hint of shame.
The hostages that died, according to them, were zionists and "all zionists need to be executed."
We all know what zionist is code for.
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)it was the IDF - on October 7th.
Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #16)
Post removed
mcar
(43,057 posts)that the IDF was responsible for the deaths of hostages.
JohnSJ
(93,981 posts)TeamProg
(6,630 posts)Huh, I dunno, sounds a little biased to me.
Hard to forget about 34,000 dead Palestinians and bombed out homes, schools, hospitals and the torture experienced by IDF prisoners.
But that's just me.
LexVegas
(6,261 posts)Orrex
(63,582 posts)Does he have no agency in this? Is he helplessly driven along by whatever Hamas wishes him to do?
Or does there, in reality, come a point at which Netanyahu can be held accountable for tens of thousands of dead Palestinians?
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)Once all of the innocent Israelis who have nothing do with Netanyahu are release from captivity by their kidnappers.
Orrex
(63,582 posts)Do we demand no better from our lavishly-funded allies?
The reality is that the hostages are indeed likely dead, some of them even through IDF action. So what then? Does Netanyahu continue killing civilians until the hostages are no longer dead?
Hamas must be destroyed, but no one has explained how killing Palestinian children will achieve that.
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)That Netanyahu is 'controlled by Hamas'. Why wouldn't we equate them with each other?
August 2005
As Pullout Nears, Gazas Graves a Stumbling Block
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-aug-11-fg-graves11-story.html
Their corpses are NOT supposed to be there. I think they could easily transport all 130 + corpses to a border crossing and then negotiate - but that's just me.
Orrex
(63,582 posts)If that bullshit claim is true, then one can reasonably infer that Netanyahu is helpless under Hamas control as he continues his policy of collective punishment.
See, my comment obviously serves to mock that asinine position, and you either disingenuously pretend not to understand, or else you fail to see the obvious, for reasons that I wont risk the TOS to state openly.
How do you imagine Hamas might easily transport a gross of corpses? With what vehicles? On what roads? Why would they put themselves in the crosshairs simply to cart bodies to a location that just you would choose? And why would they believe that returning the bodies would end Netanyahus brutal campaign?
And honestly, theyre probably more concerned with 200X as many Palestinian corpses in the meantime.
LeftInTX
(27,748 posts)Part of Shani's skull was found in Israel. Hamas paraded her body around Gaza
Associated Press Defends Image of Murdered Nova Reveler in Hamas Truck After Award
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/associated-press-defends-image-murdered-042705647.html
They were thought to be hostages in Gaza. Israeli raids found they were dead.
NETANYA, Israel For five nightmarish months, the parents of Daniel Perez and Itay Chen thought their sons, both soldiers based at a military outpost less than a mile from the Gaza border on Oct. 7, were being held hostage by Hamas in conditions they could hardly bear to think about. They lobbied and prayed for their sons release.
Then, last month, the Israeli army made a devastating announcement based on battlefield intelligence gleaned during its ground operation in Gaza: The two men had been killed on Oct. 7, and their bodies dragged into Gaza.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/07/israel-soldiers-hostage-gaza-funerals/
From yesterday:
Presumed hostage Lior Rudaeff confirmed killed on October 7; body was taken to Gaza
https://www.timesofisrael.com/presumed-hostage-lior-rudaeff-confirmed-killed-on-oct-7-body-taken-to-gaza/
I don't have the count of how many they did this with. However, they used them for bargaining chips, despite all the civilians deaths surrounding Hamas, they proudly hold on to dead bodies.
Warning from Hamas yesterday. YMMV, but this doesn't sound like grieving to me.
From two weeks ago:
200 days later, the enemy is still stuck in the sands #Gaza with no goal, no horizon, and no retrieving of its captives, Military spokesman for the Al-Qassam Brigades, Abu Ubaida said in a televised speech.
One of the lies of the enemy government is its attempt to make the world believe that it has eliminated the Qassam Brigades, leaving only the Rafah Brigades, Abu Obaida added
Link to tweet
'Israel' selling lies, far from defeating Resistance: Abu Obeida
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/-israel--selling-lies--far-from-defeating-resistance--abu-ob
Orrex
(63,582 posts)Hamas is a vile terrorist regime that should be wiped from the earth.
But that doesnt explain how they might readily transport ~130 bodies over ruined roads in trucks that would be a prime target for IDF ordnance .
Also, it would be foolish to expect mournful weeping from a Hamas mouthpiece. What kind of display did you think youd see?
LeftInTX
(27,748 posts)Orrex
(63,582 posts)If the goal is to retrieve the bodies, and since Hamas has proven that we can rely on them only to lie and to murder, then perhaps exhumation will bring the bodies home.
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)See, my comment obviously serves to mock that asinine position, and you either disingenuously pretend not to understand, or else you fail to see the obvious, for reasons that I wont risk the TOS to state openly.
There are a lot of proponents of Free Speech even in private spaces such as DU - they won't have a problem with you spitting it out.
Orrex
(63,582 posts)And another for making a G-rated joke about Plastic Man.
Meanwhile Ive been called an antisemite and a Hamas sympathizer, and those posts were allowed to stand.
So your assurance about free speech is not as reassuring as you might think.
AnrothElf
(923 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,375 posts)so they can return them with a steaming hot cup of shut the fuck up.
Why are you making excuses for hostage taking?
sarisataka
(19,689 posts)Apparently it is easy to forget about the deaths of millions. Or maybe just not care.
Protesters disrupt Auschwitz March of the Living on Yom HaShoah
Unless I forget my history, Auschwitz is a Nazi camp located in Poland for the express purpose of executing Jews, among others, and exploiting slave labor.
Since it predates the state of Israel, protesting a remembrance there doesn't seem to have any direct connection to Israel/Gaza. Such a protest seems instead to target Jews.
But that's just me.
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)sarisataka
(19,689 posts)TeamProg
(6,630 posts)Okay..
On 6 and 9 August 1945, the United States detonated two atomic bombs over the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The bombings killed between 129,000 and 226,000 people, most of whom were civilians, and remain the only use of nuclear weapons in an armed conflict.
Some people might blame Japan for Nagasaki and Hiroshima b/c Japan destroyed Pearl Harbor.
The truth is, the USA previously threatened war on Japan if they did not leave S E Asia ( the USA wanted the rubber). Following that threat, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
So, who's fault was dropping the bombs?
sarisataka
(19,689 posts)Is it simply impossible to say targeting Jews and protesting a Holocaust memorial event for the actions of Israel is wrong?
At least to say poor optics even if you don't think such a protest is morally wrong?
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)in progress Gaza to garner sympathy for Palestinians, then I can understand their motive, though it is distasteful.
sarisataka
(19,689 posts)I'll take it
ETA> you could follow the link and read the article for yourself about the protesters at the march
TheKentuckian
(25,375 posts)their will was broken and obliteration became the clear alternative.
EX500rider
(11,020 posts)The US embargoed Japan due to their invasions of Manchuria & French Indochina. They were not big rubber producers.
The US got most of its rubber from Brazil & British Malaya, neither controlled before the war by Japan.
The truth is, the USA previously threatened war on Japan if they did not leave S E Asia
Please link to a reputable source for that.
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)The Rape of Nanking?
It's not like the Japanese ever showed mercy.
https://www.amazon.com/Rape-Nanking-Forgotten-Holocaust-World/dp/0140277447
thucythucy
(8,359 posts)however, the Japanese government could have agreed to surrender hours days weeks or months before the bombing. Which to my mind means that the leadership of the Japanese military--which by that point had over riding control of the Japanese government--does bear a great deal of responsibility for the civilian casualties of 1944-45.
The fact is that the majority of Japanese civilians would have been no worse off, and many hundreds of thousands would have been saved, if the tiny clique of militarists who ran the government had agreed to surrender. Their reasons for not surrendering had nothing to do with the welfare of the Japanese people, but rather was an effort to protect their own "honor"--and to forestall their own loss of power.
It's also true that the Japanese high command knew the war was lost after the battle of Midway in June 1942, just as the German high command knew their war was lost after January 1943, or July 1943 at the latest.
In both instances the reasons for continuing the wars, with all the resulting death and destruction, had nothing to do with the well being of Japanese or German civilians, but only with the pride, the arrogance, and the self-preservation of the leadership.
Those realities have to be factored in when discussing culpability for the horrific slaughters of 1942 to 1945.
Oh, and please point to me evidence that the US threatened actual war with Japan if its military didn't pull out of SE Asia. Economic embargo, yes, but declaring war? The antiwar movement before December 7 was quite active, and FDR was at pains not to get ahead of public opinion. It's difficult for me to imagine FDR asking Congress for a declaration of war minus the attack on Pearl Harbor. And even after December 7, antiwar feeling was such that FDR waited for Germany to declare war on the US, knowing that asking Congress for such a declaration on Germany was not at all a sure thing.
I find it interesting that you seem to be trying to exonerate the Japanese military for its decision to attack Pearl Harbor. Even the US led embargo of oil--the ostensible reason for the Japanese decision--was only harmful in the context of Japan's continuing aggression against China, which had already resulted in more than a million Chinese deaths--the vast majority of them civilians. Here again, the Japanese government could have ended its war in China with little or no harmful consequence to Japan itself. Considering that you're calling for a US embargo on war material to Israel, why do I get the feeling you think the US embargo on Japan in late 1941 was somehow immoral?
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)In awhile. Thank you for giving me food for thought - and "speaking truth".
thucythucy
(8,359 posts)and I don't see anything about the US threatening war with Japan.
What I did read was material I already knew and which is pretty much common knowledge.
Which is that in response to the Japanese occupation of what was then "French Indochina," the US imposed an embargo on various items crucial to Japanese war making ability, most especially an embargo on oil. This embargo would have been lifted if the Japanese military had agreed to withdrew from Indochina and began a serious effort to end its aggression against China. The Netherlands, which at that time controlled the oil fields in Indonesia, also imposed a partial embargo, offering to sell Japan enough oil to meet its peace time needs, but not enough to continue to fuel its war machine. At that point Japan had enough in its oil reserves to fuel its military for another six or eight months, assuming it continued its war against China and its continued occupation of Indochina, after which it would face a crisis.
The Japanese government then had a choice. Agree to the US conditions for a resumption of trade, or go to war in an attempt to seize the resources on its own. Indonesia, at that time "The Dutch East Indies" had oil fields that could potentially make the Japanese military self sufficient. But in order to seize those oil fields Japan would have to make war on the US, the Netherlands, and Great Britain. To protect its connection to the oil it would have to seize the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, and then Indonesia. In order to seize Malaysia it had also to attack and occupy Thailand and Burma, neutralize Australia, destroy the American fleet at Pearl Harbor and the British installations at Hong Kong, Singapore, and Sri Lanka.
In retrospect this course of action was simple insanity. Which is why the Japanese action was so unexpected. As Churchill wrote, it was inconceivable that any sane government would undertake such an absurd enterprise. But, as Churchill went on to say, the one advantage of insanity is that it carries with it the element of surprise.
The fact is Japan is more prosperous today, and its people have a higher standard of living, than it ever had as an imperial power. Its wars--against Manchuria, China, the US, Britain, the Netherlands, Australia and the rest of the British empire, were doomed from the start.
Japan's leaders in 1941 were thus hopelessly deluded and criminally negligent.
One final note: while the US may have "wanted the rubber" this was hardly a reason to threaten, let alone go to war. As it turned out the Japanese occupation of the rubber plantations in Indochina made not one whit of difference when it came to the US waging war. And Japan's near monopoly on the manufacture of rubber did absolutely nothing to forestall its total defeat.
revmclaren
(2,613 posts)And you know it.
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,375 posts)What makes you ask?
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)Hamas is the group holding them - not the Palestinians. Unless all 34K Palestinians engaged in that Pogrom of Rape, Pillage, Murder . . .
By all means - they didn't. I've been told time and again here that Hamas and the Palestinians are two separate entities with zero relationship.
So
Hamas was not kind and gentle on October 7 when they raped women to the point of bleeding from the vaginas and rectums? We all saw the video.
sarisataka
(19,689 posts)and maybe not even then...
https://www.democraticunderground.com/132118851
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)sickening - and they are Journalism Professors. I won't actually watch that link - because I'm not a fan of Democracy Now. I feel the same way about them as I do CNN.
mcar
(43,057 posts)94 hostages are being held by a vicious group of terrorists, rapists and murderers.
They posted videos themselves of their atrocities - tell me again that it's biased?
et tu
(1,295 posts)and release the hostages and save lives
on both sides- just stop!!!!!
LakeVermilion
(1,088 posts)I doubt that any hostages are alive. There's a famine in Gaza. Do we think that Hamas is going to feed the hostages, before they feed their families? The time to get the hostages was in November/December.
Orrex
(63,582 posts)And for at least as long, Ive suspected that Netanyahu doesnt care if the hostages are alive; hell most likely use their deaths to elicit support for his ongoing campaign of brutality.
To head off the predictable accusations that I am pro-Hamas and/or antisemitic; Hamas is a horror and should be exterminated to its last member. But how many tens of thousands of civilian deaths are we willing to overlook for the sake of Netanyahus bid to stay in power?
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)Can't they release their corpses to Israel?
And then this can all be over. The Unilateral Agreement of 2005 required the removal of graves/corpses of long dead Jewish people. I think Hamas is breaking their own laws.
Omnipresent
(5,957 posts)Ensures that many of the hostages have long since passed on.
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,971 posts)Fixed it for you!
Omnipresent
(5,957 posts)Said no one, to you, in your entire life!
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,971 posts)Glad I could help you understand the situation.
Omnipresent
(5,957 posts)![](/emoticons/rofl.gif)
RandiFan1290
(6,301 posts)![](/emoticons/rofl.gif)
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,971 posts)mjvpi
(1,477 posts)If the hostages are being held by Hamas and the point of the intense bombing is to kill all of the Hamas fighters, wont the hostages be killed at the same time?
JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)Some of the Human Beings / Innocent Captives were identified as corpses on October 7th. . . So by the Unilateral Pull out of Gaza in 2005 - their corpses were never supposed to be brought into Gaza.
Palestinian Leaders wanted no trace of Judaism left in the Gaza strip. Including graves that were exhumed.
mjvpi
(1,477 posts)JustAnotherGen
(32,710 posts)Or getting the hostages back - or their corpses?
As Pullout Nears, Gazas Graves a Stumbling Block
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-aug-11-fg-graves11-story.html
Funeral and mourning rituals, governed by strict rules pertaining to the handling of bodies, occupy a hallowed place in Jewish tradition. And thus the planned removal of the cemetery, this most literal leaving of the land, has become painfully entwined with the larger battle over whether Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is right to relinquish Gaza, which was seized by Israel in the 1967 Middle East War.
A majority of Israelis support the decision made by Sharon to end Israels occupation of a teeming, poverty-stricken strip of territory that is home to more than 1.3 million Palestinians. But settlers and their supporters have struggled determinedly to thwart the uprooting of settlements and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza.
The Israeli government says it is doing all it can to handle the planned exhumations with sensitivity and understanding. But officials quietly complain that the settlers, many of whom still believe that the Gaza withdrawal wont take place, have resisted all efforts to reach an agreement on details of the bodies removal and reburial.
No Israelis - even corpses are supposed to be there. It would probably be a very low risk mission to drive all 130+ to a crossing to end this now.
TheKentuckian
(25,375 posts)Unconditional surrender is more than appropriate.
electric_blue68
(15,962 posts)Joinfortmill
(15,311 posts)Think. Again.
(12,562 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(149,615 posts)I am not surprised that Hamas has killed a large number of these hostages
SunSeeker
(52,685 posts)Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)
Post removed