Palestinian children killed in Israeli airstrike on Gaza City school

[David__77]

NBC News filmed the distressing scenes as dead and wounded children were brought to a hospital in Gaza after an Israeli airstrike hit displaced civilians sheltering in a school.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp-video/mmvo211502661602

[Think. Again.]

1. K&R

[Ping Tung]

2. The war crimes continue and the perpetrators remain free.

[NoRethugFriends]

4. Including the Hamas leaders in Qatar

[obamanut2012]

5. Why do this? Why not blame the IDF and Bibi's government JUST ONCE

[NoRethugFriends]

7. I do and have blamed them

Do some research next time.
Any reason you couldn't respond directly to my comment.?

[sarisataka]

8. That's rich

when one looks at the silence on posts about Israeli hostages and the crimes of Hamas. There were multiple threads with the video of bloodied Israeli women being hauled into captivity. All of them sank like stones. Reports of hostage bodies being recovered- meh. Video posted of Hamas using marked UN facilities, not worth discussing. The Hamas leader (facing the same potential warrant as Bibi) and the Iranian ayatollah discussing the "the Divine promise to eliminate the Zionist entity"... nope, nothing

Before you start throwing stones, do recall I have repeated spoken against the current government of Israel as obstructors of peace.

[obamanut2012]

52. lol okay

Please link where I made this comment to you and accused you of anything?

I did not, so you cannot post the link where I said that.

[sarisataka]

63. I never claimed you said anything

Hence my use of the word "before"

I also note you do not address the main subject of my post.

[obamanut2012]

195. Lol

[sarisataka]

196. Interesting reply to the plight of the hostages

But not unexpected. They are Zionists*.

[sheshe2]

76. +1

[yagotme]

246. I believe the word "including" DOES blame them.

It is, an "inclusive" word, after all...

[Ping Tung]

6. Fine. I agree with bringing all war criminals to trial.

And, I believe that all of them should turn themselves in to the ICC to make their case.

[Butterflylady]

206. Why not?

Doesn't Israel have a Seal Team 6 or whatever. We got rid of Bin Laden.

[TomDaisy]

25. we can arrest Netanyahu the second he touches American soil

and send him to The Hague for his trial

[Mr.Bill]

33. Never happen.

That would be political suicide in America.

[TomDaisy]

40. Netanyahu is a butcher and a war criminal who must be brought to justice

[Polybius]

216. And he won't

[TomDaisy]

218. "We'll see" said the Zen master.

[jimfields33]

39. Damn Hamas. They are ruthless.

They are using kids as shields and even in some cases recruiting. We need to once and for all get rid of all Hamas. Both sides will be better for it.

[womanofthehills]

72. Israeli will never get rid of Hamas

Everytime they kill someone’s family/children - many have nothing much to live for - and join Hamas.

Crystal Ball spoke of new info saying despite around 30% of Hamas being killed - the horrors of genocide - have made lots of previously peaceful people join Hamas. So Hamas’s numbers are basically almost the same as when the war began.

In the US, we would NEVER bomb a school because one LOW LEVEL terrorist MIGHT be hiding there. But according to Israel, Palestine children are fair game.

So many images of babies with amputated limbs this week - missing limps before they ever experienced walking. US needs to provide artificial limbs for all these kids being they are complicit.

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

[David__77]

133. That is actually an important point.

It is not as if mass killings of children and other non-combatants doesn’t have unintended consequences. And one of these days, that may become quite clear.

[NoRethugFriends]

211. Could you clarify what you are expecting?

[iemanja]

224. Justifying anything Israel does by blaming Hamas

is shameful. Israel has committed one human rights abuse after another, and people on this site continue to give them a pass. And they wonder why a significant number of American Muslims don't want to support the Democratic party.

Do you have ANY evidence that Hamas was active in that school? Or is that your reflexive defense to justify any and everything the IDF does?

[yagotme]

255. Let's do some word swapping:

Justifying anything IsraelHamas does by blaming HamasIsrael is shameful. IsraelHamas has committed one human rights abuserocket/bombing attack after another, and people on this site continue to give them a pass.

Hmm. Interesting...

[iemanja]

263. Non sequitur

Clearly Hamas is guilty of horrendous crimes. That's not up for dispute. I am NOT justifying Hamas' actions. But you are justifying war crimes by Israel, including the killing of children--the subject of this thread. That is on your conscience.

[Celerity]

264. +1

[yagotme]

266. I'm not saying YOU were justifying Hamas' actions in your post.

Just that it seems there are several here that do. Swapping the words around seems to fit, though, doesn't it?
Non sequitur?

including the killing of children--the subject of this thread

Hamas didn't/hasn't/doesn't want to kill children? Are you SURE of that? If you're not, your argument falls flat. (I think a complete eradication of Jews and Israel will include killing of children. But what do I know.)

[malaise]

3. Effin evil

That is all

[elias7]

9. Not evil. War with a terrorist regime.

I’m tired of seeing such one sided responses to Israelis acts. War sucks for both sides. Hamas (and the 70% of Gaza’s who support them) use the populace as shields. Unfuckindeniable. And at least as evil as what you feel Israel is doing.

Hamas knew Israel would respond this way. They ALWAYS do. It was predictable. Yet they build bombs and tunnels with all the infrastructure money they could have put to real use and hide under schools, hospitals and neighborhoods. So, who truly is being evil?

If you or I wanted to decimate the population of 2.4 million in an area of 140 square miles, we could bomb it to oblivion in days. After 7 months, Gaza has lost 1% of its population to collateral damage. Not hundreds of thousands, no where near the 6 million Jews lost in actual concentration camps. This is 20+ thousand innocents too many, but it hardly rises top the level of genocide and certainly seems top speak against “effin evil”.

I think all the pro-Israeli posters are looking for is a bit of balance and acknowledgment that it is not as simple as Good vs Evil.

[ExciteBike66]

12. How many kids are you cool with bombing just to get those tunnels?

Think about your answer.

[Bettie]

13. I suspect the answer is

any number is fine as long as they are Palestinian kids.

[ExciteBike66]

14. No one can ever give an actual answer.

Sad that so many of our political allies refuse to own up to the deaths of kids.

[elias7]

69. Look, we are fellow Democrats, can we be civil?

No number is fine, and no, none of us are OK that it is Palestinian kids.

I think one of the problems in this whole divisiveness on this forum is that you and many people who feel as you do actually believe that we’re OK with Palestinian children getting killed. We are not, but we are also not content to just blame Israel for this happening. If you can’t also blame Hamas for using them as shields, for provoking Israel into attack, then you’re missing half of the picture.

[Beastly Boy]

17. It depends. How many terrorists are you cool with hiding behind their backs?

Of course you know full well that the tunnels are not the target. It's the terrorists inside those targets. And the terrorists inside schools, hospitals and mosques hiding behind the kids' backs.

And of course you know that none of the kids would be killed were it not for the terrorists hiding behind their backs. And you also know that each single one of these terrorist has pledged to kill millions of kids at the earliest opportunity, and they have the means to do so.

So the "kids being killed just to get to the tunnels" BS is just that: BS. And you know it. Think about this. And think how easy it is to fall back on this BS when one favors BS over substance.

[flying_wahini]

20. So when Hamas goes to SA or Iran you cool with starting WW3 to kill them there too?

[Beastly Boy]

38. Keep digging.

And keep throwing absurd strawman arguments my way. Set up the most ridiculous scenario, suggest the most idiotic solution to it and ask me if I am cool with that. Sure.

I can tell you this: If Hamas were to relocate to the French Riviera, I would not be cool with using the Death Star to blow up the Earth.

Is this reply enough of a clue to what I would or wouldn't be cool with?

[Eko]

95. And here you are saying it is ok to attack schools, hospitals and mosques.

That's BS.

[Beastly Boy]

98. I am saying no such thing. But you keep digging deeper

while I keep ignoring your bait.

[uponit7771]

232. The ends do ***NOT*** justify the means in this context, we need to keep our humanity no matter the level of anger

[Beastly Boy]

238. The question is what you consider the ends and the means.

I say the means are Hamas deliberately and cynically using human shields in warfare. The ends are Hamas getting tons of sympathy, as intended, from the people whose emotions overwhelm their ability to think critically and rationally.

Totally unjustified.

This is a far more nuanced situation than I described above, but that would be too much to go into for the people who can't get past a simplistic knee-jerk association devoid of any critical analysis between bombings and civilian deaths. And this is what the terrorists are counting on.

[uponit7771]

240. Tight filtering, separation and clearing of guerilla forces to reduce human shields has been done with much more ...

... humanity than what the IDF has chosen to do.

It's gas lighting as best to intimate IDF had no choices but to make the humanity situation worse in Gaza

[Beastly Boy]

241. Any examples that you can cite in support of your thesis?

This is not to say that, at least IMO, Israel's war with Gaza has not been conducted with a great deal of uncharacteristic incompetence.

[uponit7771]

247. Feluchia Iraq for instance US military filtered out all military age fighting

.... males from rest of population in stages before going in.

Multiple check points after ringing the town, IDF allowed Gaza males to track south with rest of population... no isolation.

IDF has gone about this in the least humane way and that was their choice

[SunSeeker]

49. How many Israeli civilians are you ok with Hamas killing with their rockets?

See how stupid loaded questions work?

[elias7]

67. I personally am not "cool" with any of it, and I don't need to think about it.

I am also not cool with Hamas using the kids as shields, well knowing this will create a PR disaster for Israel.

I have always felt Israel overreacts, but I DO GET where they are coming from, given the history of ongoing terror attacks, and bombings, going on my entire life from Gaza, from Lebanon, from Syria, and even internally with suicide bombers.

I DON’T GET raping, genital mutilation, torture in front of other family members, and taking hostages for no other reason than being Israeli or Jewish. I mean, these were folks who sought peace and coexistence with Gaza, many living on Kibbutzim in the west to be close to Gaza, bridge the gap so to speak.

So, perhaps something for you to think about: are you cool with Hamas egging Israel into military response, knowing that many innocent people would be killed? Are you cool with raping and kidnapping and torturing? Are you cool with people cheering in Gaza and elsewhere? The fact that innocent people were raped with nails driven into their vaginas, others being beheaded, kidnapped? I personally find this brutality to be inhuman. I get Israel’s overreaction, I don’t get this other type of violence. Do you? And if you do, are you cool with it? Think about your answer.

[betsuni]

79. +1

[JustAnotherGen]

87. There will be no answer

The devil's arithmetic requires not seeing the human beings who were victims of Hamas (the Gaza Political Leadership) as actual human beings.

[uponit7771]

233. US separated terrorist from citizens while remaining human in Felucia, same could've happened in GAZA but IDF decided

... not to.

That's IDF's fault not anyone else

[SoFlaBro]

111. Zero. Dead children turns my fucking stomach. Hamas can't wait to position children under any potential targets.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

202. Like refugee camps?

Give me a break.

[BannonsLiver]

23. When someone refers to Hamas as "freedom fighters just like Mandela"

And constantly rails against the “evil west” they’re laying their cards on the table. Personally I think the use of “evil west” is a euphemism for something else. Will leave it at that.

[betsuni]

66. +1

[Eko]

94. Yes, people keep telling us it's a war and people die in wars, even innocent civilians.

I would say the attack by Hamas was evil, but hey, its just a fucking war right? Innocent people die in wars. Personally I think that what they did and the response by Israel was evil, but it's war. Shouldn't say anything about it. Dont you know what war is? Sheesh.

[thucythucy]

155. Just to be absolutely clear:

you're saying gang rape, genital mutilaton and hostage taking are all part of war? And you're equating the civilian casualities in Gaza, horrific as those deaths are, with that sort if gratuitious barbarity?

So, in your estimation, does this mean the pilots who manned the B-17s bombing Berlin in 1944-45, with the resulting deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, including women and children, are war criminals on the level with the guards at Auschwitz who laughed as they poured Zyklon B into the gas chambers?

You believe then the Israeli pilots dropping bombs on Gaza are as depraved as the men who personally played catch with cut off breasts and drove nails into the vaginas of still living rape victims? To you it's all the same?

Seriously, you see no difference at all?

[Eko]

166. Ok.

you're saying gang rape, genital mutilaton and hostage taking are all part of war?
Yes. It happens in all wars. Show me one where it didn't. That in no way makes it right.
So, in your estimation, does this mean the pilots who manned the B-17s bombing Berlin in 1944-45, with the resulting deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, including women and children, are war criminals on the level with the guards at Auschwitz who laughed as they poured Zyklon B into the gas chambers?
Of course not, one was trying to oppress others and one was trying to free others. Who is Israel trying to free? The hostages? Ive never seen anyone free hostages by bombing the area they are in. And if that is the case how well has it worked out? They have freed how many by this bombing?
You believe then the Israeli pilots dropping bombs on Gaza are as depraved as the men who personally played catch with cut off breasts and drove nails into the vaginas of still living rape victims? To you it's all the same?
Nope. I dont, but tell that to the Father that has to dig his entire family of 12 out of the rubble to bury them when he did nothing. I am sure it would comfort him that it was from pilots dropping bombs.
Seriously, you see no difference at all?
Yes I see a difference. I see the US during WW2 letting German civilians escape conflict areas and then not attacking them when they were told that was a place they would not attack, at least on purpose. The same thing in Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea. Have you ever heard of My Lai? That is considered a war crime and is the shame of the US military. The same thing happens just about weekly in Gaza and people here say "well, its just war." Do you think that was a war crime? Hamas is not literally hiding behind civilians. They are embedded with the population because they are a guerilla force. They do not have the numbers or resources to fight as a regular army. Once again that in no way makes their actions right but its not a war as defined. Two nations did not declare war on each other. To defeat a guerilla force is really hard. Ask England re American Revolution. Or England re Ireland, or England re,,,,,,,,. There is a reason England quit being a world power and that is it. Or USA vs Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq. You have to take the land, hold the land, create a stable government that the people accept and hope for the best. This is common military doctrine and if you would like to learn more this is a good place to start. Israel is not even trying that.They bombed the north and killed lots of civilians then moved on to attacking where they told the civilians to go. They did not try to create a infrastructure, they did not try to ally with the locals. They didn't do anything that you do when you are trying to defeat a guerilla force except kill a lot of people, mostly civilians. Either they are completely inept and unaware of military history or they are not trying to defeat their enemies and have another purpose or just want to kill a lot of people. Now they have fighting up in the north again because of their ineptness or ignorance or because that is what they wanted in the first place for whatever reason and now they are attacking the south. They wont win. And by everything I see the inordinate civilian causalities are a unfortunate consequence to what they do want. A battle they wont win that they should and by all accounts do know they wont win with large amounts of civilian casualties.
Personally I think Hamas should be defeated but Israel is not even trying to do that. I support the US going in there and at least doing the right things to make it even a possibility rather than Israel just killing a lot of people for what? Just to have a lot of dead people?
Do you see the difference now?

[obamanut2012]

197. We have international laws now because of the bombing and the camps

Laws Israel is not respecting.

And yes, Allied military, including the US's, routinely committed what are now classified as war crimes. They are one reason why we have these laws.

[Eko]

201. Yes.

[thucythucy]

248. It was widely recognized even before WWII that the bombing of civilian targets

went against the rules of civilized warfare, which is why the bombing of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War was so roundly condemned.

And ratified or not, the US most definitely bombed areas in which many civilians were killed during both the Korean and Vietnam Wars.

I'm not justifying what Israel or anyone else is doing. I'm just saying there should be some self reflection by Americans when they denounce others for actions we outselves have carried out.

[uponit7771]

234. +1, people act like HAMAS guerilla fighting doesn't have a solution to it without murdering everything moving. It does,

... the US did it in Felucia and reduced civilian casualties as much as we could.

IDF could've done the same and chose the inhumane path ... that's the IDFs fault

[thucythucy]

251. Um, there was quite a lot of criticism of the US attacks on Fallujah.

The US was criticised for the alleged use of white phosporous and depleted uranian rounds.

Much civilian infrastructure was destroyed, including medical and religious centers.

Thousands of refugees had to flee, many are still unable to return home, and it was reported that Allied forces refused to allow males "of fighting age" to leave the area before and during the fighting, whether or not they were actual fighters.

The number of civilian deaths is disputed.

In any case, the fighting in Fallujah was part of a larger war the legitimacy of which was and is also disputed. Iraq had no part in the attacks on 9-11. It did not have weapons of mass destruction, which are the reasons the US used to justify its attack on Iraq. Under the rules of war the entire Iraq campaign can therefore be seen as illegitimate.

By contrast, Hamas certainly was responsible for the attacks on Israel on October 7th. Not even Hamas disputes that.

[thucythucy]

253. Thank you for your response to my questions.

Last edited Tue May 28, 2024, 04:57 PM - Edit history (3)

Not everyone has been so forthcoming in their responses to questions I ask.

A couple of points:

When you say, gang rape and sexual mutilation "happens in all wars"--how is this different from those defending Israel who say civilian casualties happen in all wars? That line of argument has been roundly criticized here, even mocked in this and other threads. Why is this a seeming rationalization in one instance and not the other?

One could argue though that civilian casualties that happen when a military target is hit are morally different from the deliberate commission of rape and other acts of sexual terrorism that serve no military purpose other than to inflict pain and horror on innocent people. However brutal the Israeli campaign in Gaza, there is at least a semblance of military justification in trying to take out the infrastructure used by Hamas in its attacks on Israel, attacks which continued over the weekend with the rocketing of Tel Aviv. The British bombed Peenemunde to take out the V-2 workshops, even though this killed hundreds of slave laborers imprisoned there. The US and British bombed V-1 sites even when they were near or in civilian areas. Like you say, this is a part of war.

You make a compelling point when you say "Tell that to a father who has to dig out his entire family..." I would assume this applies to German fathers as well as Palestinians. The reasons for the carnage don't matter much to the innocent victims of that carnage. The fact that the Allies were ostensibly trying to liberate Europe probably didn't mean much to Germans whose families were incinerated during the fire bombing of Hamburg or Dresden. Then too there were the hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians killed during the fire bombing of Tokyo and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. And it wasn't only German civilians--or slaves imprisoned in Germany-- who died during the Allied bombing campaigns in Europe. Thousands of French civilians were killed in the bombing and bombardment of Normandy in the lead up to D-Day. Civilians caught in the fighting in St. Lo, Caen and elsewhere died in the thousands. How many Italian civilians were killed in the Allied bombing campaign there? Again, as you say, this is part of war, which is why people with any sort of a working conscience hesitate to start wars, declared, guerrilla, or otherwise. This hesitation was apparently not evident in the Hamas attack on October 7.

When you say "Hamas is not hiding behind civilians..." They have in fact hidden in tunnels below civilians. They may not be strapping civilians to military vehicles out in the open, but its whole strategy has been to use Gaza as a base camp for attacks on Israel, and civilians be damned.

If Hamas would release the remaining hostages, or their corpses, I think the pressure on the Israeli government to stop its campaign would be undeniable. This was an option available to Hamas from the very beginning, which, last I heard, its leaders continue to refuse.

I wish Hamas was not the de facto government of Gaza, and dedicated to the genocide of Israeli Jews. I wish Netanyahu wasn't the head of the Israeli government and closed to a two state solution, and hope the Israeli people will soon send him packing. I wish there were people of good faith on both sides willing and able to reach a just settlement of all these issues, a settlement that could be enforced to keep the civilians on both sides safe.

Sad to say, I don't see it happening any time soon.

Edited to add: You ask who the Israelis are trying to liberate, or words to that effect, contrasting this to the Allied goal in WWII to liberate Europe.

I think the premise of your question is faulty. The goal of the Allies was not to liberate anyone, at any rate this wasn't the primary goal. Certainly the Soviet regime was not interested in "liberating" eastern Europe. Neither did the US enter the war to liberate Europeans. We only entered after the US was directly attacked in the Pacific, with the goal of self preservation. Even after Pearl Harbor the US refused to declare war on Nazi Germany, and only did so after Germany declared war on us. Yes, western Europe was liberated from Nazi occupation, but this wasn't the main goal. The main goals were self interest and self preservation. And when there were opportunities to save innocent civilians, as for instance by opening our borders to Jews fleeing the Holocaust, the US refused. I think it important not to romanticize our own history, especially as we attempt to judge others.

So when you ask who Israel is trying to liberate, I think the question is a non sequitur. Many if not most Israelis, if you ask them, are fighting in Gaza for self preservation. Hamas attacked Israel and has as its stated goal the extermination of Israel and Israeli Jews. The Israeli military is fighting to prevent that. As I believe pretty much any government in such a situation would do. You may believe that this effort is misguided and out of proportion, but I think we need to recognize how many Israelis see their very existence at stake in this conflict.

Best wishes, and thank you again for your thoughtful response.

[Eko]

262. Here you go.

"When you say, gang rape and sexual mutilation "happens in all wars"--how is this different from those defending Israel who say civilian casualties happen in all wars? That line of argument has been roundly criticized here, even mocked in this and other threads. Why is this a seeming rationalization in one instance and not the other?"
It might be helpful to go back a couple of posts to see
1. What I said.
Post 94. "Yes, people keep telling us it's a war and people die in wars, even innocent civilians.
I would say the attack by Hamas was evil, but hey, its just a fucking war right? Innocent people die in wars. Personally I think that what they did and the response by Israel was evil, but it's war. Shouldn't say anything about it. Dont you know what war is? Sheesh."
2. The post I was replying to.
Post 9. Not evil. War with a terrorist regime.
"I’m tired of seeing such one sided responses to Israelis acts. War sucks for both sides. Hamas (and the 70% of Gaza’s who support them) use the populace as shields. Unfuckindeniable. And at least as evil as what you feel Israel is doing."
3. The post they were replying to.
Post 3. "Effin evil
That is all"
When you take all that into account I would hope that it is clear that I was sarcastically criticizing the person for just saying "War sucks for both sides" and using that to justify what Israel did when that logic can also be used to justify what Hamas did. This is not me saying either were correct to do so just pointing out the logic.

One could argue though that civilian casualties that happen when a military target is hit are morally different from the deliberate commission of rape and other acts of sexual terrorism that serve no military purpose other than to inflict pain and horror on innocent people. However brutal the Israeli campaign in Gaza, there is at least a semblance of military justification in trying to take out the infrastructure used by Hamas in its attacks on Israel, attacks which continued over the weekend with the rocketing of Tel Aviv. The British bombed Peenemunde to take out the V-2 workshops, even though this killed hundreds of slave laborers imprisoned there. The US and British bombed V-1 sites even when they were near or in civilian areas. Like you say, this is a part of war.
Hamas also attacked military targets on their horrific attack of Israel on Oct 7th. It could be argued that the civilian deaths were just collateral damage or just targets of opportunity. As I have said before Hamas is not a regular army, they are a guerilla force and as such do not operate like a normal military nor could they as they do not have the force or the arms to do so. Inflicting pain and horror is what a guerilla force does as it is their only means. You can look to the Northern Ireland conflict to see another example of this.

When you say "Hamas is not hiding behind civilians..." They have in fact hidden in tunnels below civilians. They may not be strapping civilians to military vehicles out in the open, but its whole strategy has been to use Gaza as a base camp for attacks on Israel, and civilians be damned.
I would ask that if you quote me please be accurate with the quote. "I said Hamas is not literally hiding behind civilians. They are embedded with the population because they are a guerilla force. They do not have the numbers or resources to fight as a regular army." As for they are using Gaza as a base camp, where do you expect them to use as a base camp?

If Hamas would release the remaining hostages, or their corpses, I think the pressure on the Israeli government to stop its campaign would be undeniable. This was an option available to Hamas from the very beginning, which, last I heard, its leaders continue to refuse.
While I personally think releasing the remaining hostages needs to be done Bibi has said before that even if Hamas releases all of them he will continue this war. If you can provide a statement contrary then that would be great. With that said from a strategic view the hostages are the only bargaining chip Hamas has at this point and makes no sense for them to give up the only one they have.

I wish Hamas was not the de facto government of Gaza, and dedicated to the genocide of Israeli Jews. I wish Netanyahu wasn't the head of the Israeli government and closed to a two state solution, and hope the Israeli people will soon send him packing. I wish there were people of good faith on both sides willing and able to reach a just settlement of all these issues, a settlement that could be enforced to keep the civilians on both sides safe.

Sad to say, I don't see it happening any time soon.
I as well wish that and am profoundly sad that it probably wont happen any time soon.

Edited to add: You ask who the Israelis are trying to liberate, or words to that effect, contrasting this to the Allied goal in WWII to liberate Europe.
I think the premise of your question is faulty. The goal of the Allies was not to liberate anyone, at any rate this wasn't the primary goal. Certainly the Soviet regime was not interested in "liberating" eastern Europe. Neither did the US enter the war to liberate Europeans. We only entered after the US was directly attacked in the Pacific, with the goal of self preservation. Even after Pearl Harbor the US refused to declare war on Nazi Germany, and only did so after Germany declared war on us. Yes, western Europe was liberated from Nazi occupation, but this wasn't the main goal. The main goals were self interest and self preservation. And when there were opportunities to save innocent civilians, as for instance by opening our borders to Jews fleeing the Holocaust, the US refused. I think it important not to romanticize our own history, especially as we attempt to judge others.

So when you ask who Israel is trying to liberate, I think the question is a non sequitur. Many if not most Israelis, if you ask them, are fighting in Gaza for self preservation. Hamas attacked Israel and has as its stated goal the extermination of Israel and Israeli Jews. The Israeli military is fighting to prevent that. As I believe pretty much any government in such a situation would do. You may believe that this effort is misguided and out of proportion, but I think we need to recognize how many Israelis see their very existence at stake in this conflict.

You are correct, that was a simplistic answer that I gave but your question was if the Pilots bombing Berlin were war criminals. My response was that they were not because the actions they were doing were to free people. My answer was not that they could not be because the US was trying to free people but that the individual actions of the pilots were not because of what they were trying to accomplish. The US did indeed commit what are now considered war crimes as a country by policy and as well as individuals within the armed forces. I also think comparing a world war 80 years ago with a regional conflict now is not really the best thing to do. Laws have changed, morals have changed and without a doubt technology has changed. I also understand that Israelis may see their very existence at stake in this conflict but I think that is not really the case. The IDF has 170,000 troops with about 500,000 reserves as well as the most technological arms in the world and the backing of the US. Even if everyone in Gaza, civilians included were to attack Israel I think it would be over very quickly with Israel the easy victor. What happened on Oct 7th was horrible but I believe it is about the best Hamas could do and only could do that because Israel let their guard down. I believe much like the US after 2001 they are going way overboard on their response and it is a response that will not help make anything better for anyone but just create more strife. No one is going to win this war. It will either end with diplomatic relations or with Israel flying their own version of Bush's "Mission accomplished" for Iraq. Much like I was against the Iraq war but still supported my country I am against the Gaza war and still support Israel but like then I will now call out what at best is misguided ignorant war policies that are just going to kill a lot of people, waste a lot of money and make the problem worse. As for the worst? Many people say the Iraq war was for money and oil, many people say the same thing about the Gaza war in its own form. When a country engages in a war that makes no sense people wonder what that countries motives really are and I don't blame them. That doesn't mean that I think they are right at all, but it is a point to consider. But it is just one of many points to consider. I would like to add that I am not comparing Iraq with Gaza in anything other than the points I have brought up. Iraq did not attack the US while Hamas did attack Israel. Huge difference.

Thanks for the conversation, I really appreciate it. That is what this site is for, a place for Democrats to exchange ideas and thoughts to better ourselves and our party and hopefully make some positive changes. None of us has the monopoly on those so a robust and civil discourse can only help us come closer to that.
Keep on keeponing,
Eko.

[David__77]

10. I agree with your assessment.

[ExciteBike66]

11. Musta been a tunnel somewhere!

Gotta justify child murder somehow.

[marble falls]

30. The tunnels have been used since the 60s to move goods/medicines to Palestine during many Israeli blockaids ...

... it's an open secret, and IDF has closed down one or another regularly. It was no big deal when Netanyahu and Hamas had their arrangement. Now it's a propaganda opportunity and photo-op to shut one down.

[Mountainguy]

15. Video literally interviewing hamas official

But I'm sure it isn't propaganda or anything.

Media will gleefully echo hamas and then people will gleefully post it here. Canned responses included.

[David__77]

16. This is an NBC News report.

[Mountainguy]

71. And?

That doesn't change anything I said.

[AloeVera]

75. Bullshit.

Civil Defense is not Hamas. They are the people who clean up Israel's carnage, rescuing people under rubble, digging up mass graves etc. They are also the body that mans the Gaza side of border crossings, at least Rafah. If they were Hamas, which they are not, do you think Israel would have let them man the Rafah crossing until May 7th when it took control of it?

Btw, did you manage to catch those children writhing in agony? Perhaps you think they're Hamas too and not worthy of your compassion. Or just Palestinian.

[Mountainguy]

105. lmao

They are Hamas.

[AloeVera]

123. So in your view, those children didn't die or writhe in agony on that hospital floor?

N/T

[Mountainguy]

125. I dont think i'll take Hamas word for how they got there

[Butterflylady]

207. Laughing at people dying......

Wow........

[Mountainguy]

222. Oh please

laughing at the idea that the Gaza Civil Defense isn't an arm of Hamas.

And you knew that before making those accusations.

[haele]

243. If they weren't before, they will be now.

That's what happens every time a state military tries to treat a guerilla force like a co-equal military. There's proven asymmetrical warfare doctrine on how to deal with guerilla forces with minimal adverse affects to local civilians they embed themselves in with that also reduces most of any sympathy the locals might have with guerillas.
That isn't "bomb them all and let Gawd sort them out". Curtis LeMay, head of the Bomber Mafia in WWII caused tens of thousands of useless civilian casualties in the axis countries along with bomber crews pushing the idea that the civilians in those countries would give up supporting the war after their cities were bombed for no strategic reason. Totally ignoring that the Blitz on England didn't work on the population. Almost like he and other Allied military strategists thought the Germans and Japanese were lesser people because their governments and armies were violent, pitiless, uncivilized thugs and rapists.

Trying to turn locals against a government policy or guerilla force by collective civilian punishment didn't work then, and the supposedly more educated, savvy, and civilized Likkud government is making sure it won't work now.

You can criticize me for holding the current Israeli government to a higher standard than Hamas when it comes to dealing with the Palestinian civilian population they (the Israelis) recognized as quasi-legitimate enough to be considered either a viable workforce when crossing the border to or citizens when they are residing in Israel. They are a Government, not a rival religious street gang.

Hamas is a violent, simplistic terrorist organization trying to expand turf and get rid of opposition. The only real way to neuter and eventually eliminate them is to remove support for their cause; to keep bored or desperate young people with nothing to do and few opportunities from joining their ranks, and to give the civilians around them an alternative to imagining support for Hamas will give them any dignity or improvement to their daily lives.

But I suppose it's too late now anyway. Any chance of a peaceful single joint state or even two state solution disappeared with the assassination of Rabin. So just go head and bomb them out of existence and then build a huge buffer wall to keep any undesirables away from the rest of that country. After all, it's not like building a wall around Texas.
I guess just be too hard and take too long to try to re-convince the civilians in Gaza or the West Bank they have any opportunity for dignity or improvement outside of a group of warlord thugs who will treat them like useful commodities instead of troublesome potential criminals.

Haele

[SunSeeker]

18. Why are there any kids in Gaza City? They were supposed to have evacuated months ago.

So sick of Hamas using civilians as shields, and getting a pass for it, whole Israel gets blamed.

[David__77]

19. Does that justify Israel blowing them up?

[TomDaisy]

24. that seems to be the implication - your face got in the way of my bullets!

[SunSeeker]

58. Hamas put those kids' faces in the way of bullets. nt

[SunSeeker]

56. Why can't you answer my fucking question? Why deflect with a nonsensical assertion?

The IDF 6 months ago warned civilians to get out of Gaza City. The IDF does not want to kill kids. That's Hamas who deliberately kills babies in their cribs.

Why did Hamas and these kids' families keep them there in Gaza City, where there is no aid or medical care for them?

[TomDaisy]

22. and where are they supposed to go - the Four Seasons?

[David__77]

26. Israel has kept people trapped in the giant war zone.

There is no non-combat zone and Israel never allowed non-combatants to exit the combat zone. They could have opened a corridor to Negev or some other place and chose not to do so.

[TomDaisy]

29. and the open-air prison before that, ghetto-style

[SunSeeker]

74. It was HAMAS that turned it into a war zone. And Egypt and Jordan trapped them in.

Why are you absolving Egypt and Jordan of closing their borders to Palestinian women and children refugees, but criticising Israel for protecting its border that it is BEING ATTACKED through?

You do realize that Hamas tries to sneak in with refugees, right? That's what Hamas did with Rafah.

[David__77]

80. Israel is responsible for the wellbeing of the non-combatants of Gaza.

I understand that some ministers in Israel’s government like Ben Gvir have openly advocated for ethnic cleansing, and wished to drive people out of their country.

[SunSeeker]

109. Hamas is the governing authority of Gaza. They are responsible for what is happening to their people.

Hamas started this war with their depraved attack on Israel on 10/7. They knew Israel would attack in response. Hamas then used civilians--women and children--to shield themselves from attack. When Israel dropped leaflets warning civilians they were about to enter Gaza City to root out Hamas, Hamas tried to stop their human shields from leaving. This is on Hamas.

[David__77]

134. The UN and international law disagrees.

Here is material related to that: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/

[SunSeeker]

144. You sent me a piece on what the AC thinks constitutes occupation, not what constitutes the government.

Zelensky is still the President of Ukraine, even though Russia has occupied parts of it.

Hamas is still the government of the Gaza Strip, and is still sending out false death totals out of the Hamas-run "Gaza Health Ministry."

[questionseverything]

205. It didn't start on 10-7

Israel has been stealing grazing land for decades, imprisoning “suspects “ without charges and treating Palestinians as caged animals…

I don’t agree with how they decided to retaliate but I understand why they felt they had to

[yagotme]

249. No, "it" didn't start on 10-7.

Problem is, you can't REALLY pick a start date. Conflicts in the ME have been happening since the dawn of time. The CURRENT conflagration started on 10-7. With the direct Hamas attack on Israel. Prior to that, there's the things you mentioned, along with the Palestinian militant bombings, rocket attacks, etc., that you did not.

[uponit7771]

235. True, IDF didn't have to react with the worst solution possible to fight HAMAS either... that was IDF choice

[SunSeeker]

258. If you think what IDF is doing is "the worst possible choice," you haven't heard the Republicans.

They suggested Israel "go nuclear."

This is urban warfare. In a densely packed country of millions of people, a civilian death toll of less than 20,000 (the 35,000 figure includes Hamas fighters) is among the lowest if not the lowest civilian death rates for urban warfare in human history.

[AloeVera]

45. There are several Four Seasons in Gaza.

The Four Seaons of Mawasi. Unfortunately there is no accomodation and no water. At all. If you don't mind that and the rivers of raw sewage, you might like living by the sea on prime beachfront.

The Four Seasons of Khan Younis. Unforunately it's all rubble, but may be all right if you don't mind living among the unburied dead.

The Four Seasons of Gaza City. Unfortunately it's overrun with rats that will bring epidemics, due to the large number of bodies under rubble. But beggars cant be choosers and we are all going to die sooner or later so what's the big deal?

/S

[SunSeeker]

60. There are numerous refugee camps set up in the south and outside Gaza City.

The real question is why the fuck has there been no pressure on Egypt and Jordan to accept women and children refugees to save their lives.

[Nixie]

68. This! A thousand times this. These questions are starting

to be asked, especially about Egypt. Right next door, but they've shunned the Palestinians as well. They protect their border very carefully. Now Israel has had enough and it's a big no no to not tolerate terrorists. How are they getting away with that.

Egypt supposedly destroyed the Hamas tunnels a long time ago, so they must understand the dangers and want no part of it.

Morning Joe had some good segments on the lack of pressure on Egypt by all the anti-Israel folks.

[David__77]

82. Why should people in Gaza be forced out of their own country?

Israel can allow non-combatants to enter other areas under their control if they wished.

[Nixie]

85. We were commenting about Egypt and Jordan.

It's already clear who blames israel for everything.

[David__77]

86. Yes, I understand that some Israeli authorities have advocated to remove Gaza people to other countries.

I understand why those countries might not wish to support such a project.

[Nixie]

88. Which is where the anti-Israel bias is so evident.

It's not about the civilians after all.

[AloeVera]

90. Do you understand what ethnic cleansing is?

The Palestinians have specialized knowledge of that, perhaps you could learn from them. It might enlighten you as to why neighbouring Arab countries reacted the way they have.

[Nixie]

91. Do you understand what terrorists are?

Perhaps you can learn about that, as it's not just Palestinians that are affected by terrorists.

These type comments are just further illustration that a lot of these condemnations of Israel are just anti-Israel bias. It's not really about the citizens. The myopic focus on Israel and negating other Arab countries doesn't sound very enlightened, either.

[AloeVera]

92. So you don't acknowledge the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

Not everything should be brushed aside as anti-Israel bias, certainly not history. That has bad consequences, as we see.

[Nixie]

93. I denounce terrorism. The anti-Israel bias is your

focus, it seems.

The "ethnic cleansing" narrative is another obvious anti-Israel bias. It's also an adopted narrative that doesn't take into account that Hamas is actively trying to get kill all Israelis. That goal is actual and stated ethnic cleansing.

[AloeVera]

100. It's a 76-year narrative.

And there is a high risk of it happening again. Excuse us pro-human people for raising it. Not really.

With what exactly would Hamas kill all Israelis or ehnically cleanse them? The power and military imbalance is astronomical. It is Israel that is capable of, has done and is actually doing exactly that. I see pure projection and denial of reality when someone claims what you are claiming.

[Nixie]

103. This subthread was about Egypt protecting its borders.

It was about Egypt and Jordan not acknowledging the civilians in Gaza.

But I do see your anti/Israel comments again.

[AloeVera]

117. I'll make it clearer.

The issue of ethnic cleansing is directly related to why Egypt etc do not want to open their borders. They don't want to be complicit in ethnic cleansing. Surely you don't think Israel would let Gazans return, once they have been removed? Or do you really think the "emigration" would only be temporary, until war's end?

[AloeVera]

118. I'll make it clearer.

The issue of ethnic cleansing is directly related to why Egypt etc do not want to open their borders. They don't want to be complicit in ethnic cleansing. Surely you don't think Israel would let Gazans return, once they have been removed? Or do you really think the "emigration" would only be temporary, until war's end?

[Nixie]

119. That is purely another anti-Israel bias. That is what is clear.

It's clear that only Israel gets blamed for protecting itself from terrorists, but when Egypt does it you label it with an anti-Israel bias. That doesn't sound very enlightened.and it completely undermines the so-called concern for Gaza citizens.

Surely you should be very mad at Egypt for patrolling its borders so vigilantly for years even before Oct. 7. Just one of many reasons they keep Gazans out is that they don't want terrorists firing even more missiles at Israel from Egypt's border after they enter with the "civilians" from Gaza.

It's just a bit laughable that you don't know where Hamas could be getting their money and weapons. I'll just let that go, though. It's been all over the news who funds them so there's no sense in bothering with such blatant anti-Israel bias.

[AloeVera]

120. So do you believe Israel will let them return?

[Nixie]

121. There goes your concern about civilians right out

the window.

First you're concerned about Gazan civilians being harmed but that's not really the priority. The anti-Israel narrative is the priority.

[AloeVera]

122. I guess the answer is no.

I happen to believe that ethnic cleansing is a serious harm. I'm not certain what you believe, but judging by your reluctance to answer my question, I surmise that you believe it's an accepable solution to a problem.

I wish pro-Israel people would just come out and say it. There are too many Palestinians in Gaza to implement Israel's plans for the enclave, and they need to go. Instead of this pretence about caring for their "safety" - hello, who is killing them? - while at the same time blaming Arab nations for not coming to their rescue.

But of course for that Blame the Arabs narrative to work, the very idea of ethnic cleansing must not only be denied but not even allowed into the conversation.

I'm now done with this sub-thread. Enjoy your day.

[Nixie]

124. Thanks for confirming that your anti-Israel bias is what you "happen to believe"

That much is obvious since you can't entertain that countries don't want terrorists and that there is a history of Egypt destroying and patrolling the tunnels into Gaza. Here is one Palestinian author on her observations about the tunnels between Egypt and Gaza. This interview with her was over ten (10) years ago.

And we basically arrived in Cairo and took a taxi across the Suez Canal and up - basically, it was called the coastal road of North Sinai.So there was a lot of Egyptian military presence and control over who goes in and out.

Your only explanation about Egypt patrolling its borders and destroying the tunnels is "ethnic cleansing." What? How does that even make sense? It doesn't make any sense, but it does fit your "belief" -- which is anti-Israel bias. If you can't even admit that terrorism is a problem, then that isn't really the "pro-human" stance after all.

[AloeVera]

127. Never mind. Maybe it'll come to you. N/T.

[Nixie]

129. The anti-Israel narratives are very simple and easy

to spot. They don't mesh with the complex realities of terrorism in the Middle East.

[Beastly Boy]

112. That's a pretty rich word salad you got here

Last edited Sat May 25, 2024, 10:18 AM - Edit history (3)

How does a centuries' old narrative have only a 76 year history, and what makes you think that, after all these years, it is only now running the high risk of happening again? That's quite a mind-bender!

How does power and military imbalance play into intent to commit ethnic cleansing? Is this the only, or a major, or even a lameass significant motive to commit ethnic cleansing? Why then don't we see the US ethnically cleanse Canadians? Is the US not capable of doing so, or, is power and military imbalance, absent of intent, a laughable excuse for a motive to commit ethnic cleansing?

Is it your position that, in the 75 years of the narrative you oddly brought up, Israel, given its power and military imbalance, was too lazy to kill all Palestinians or ethnically cleanse them? In this context, are the 2 million Israeli Palestinians an unintended consequence of their laziness? Or is Israel, having failed to exercise their astronomical military imbalance for the past 75 years that, BTW, saw a tenfold increase of population in Gaza , only now "capable of, has done and is actually doing exactly that (killing all Palestinians or ethnically cleansing them)"?

How many "pro-human people" do you represent anyway, and are any of them aware of the quality of representation they are getting?

[Nixie]

97. Here's an article on why Egypt destroyed the tunnels to Gaza. It was about terrorism.

This subthread started because of comments about Egypt and Jordan and their treatment of civilians from Gaza. edit: the subthread was also about how tightly Egypt controls its border.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/11/1218489546/tunnels-once-connected-egypt-and-gaza-heres-what-they-looked-like-10-years-ago

[AloeVera]

99. I'm sorry but...and?

[Nixie]

104. But terrorists.

That's what.

[iemanja]

225. These comments are about dead children

A school was bombed. Israel is committing one human rights abuse after another. Its government deserves criticism. Many Israelis are in fact criticizing Netanyahu as we speak, but you insist Americans should not do so. Such purposeful slaughter of civilians is in fact a war crime, which is the sort of thing that has led the ICC to indict Netanyahu, along with Hamas leadership for reasons of its own crimes.

[uponit7771]

236. Of course, the terrorist who are mostly men can be separated WITHOUT mass killing of civilians IDF chose not to.

[yagotme]

250. OK, let's try it your way.

"Mostly" men. So, let's separate all the men out of Gaza, and since we can't tell Hamas from civilian, we'll have to kill all of them. Now, to the women. Since it's "mostly" men, we won't have to kill all the women, but, since we can't tell Hamas from civilian, we'll just have to kill all of them. Kids. Since 10-12 seems to be a good recruitment age for Hamas, every male child above 10 should be killed. Again, you can't tell Hamas apart from civilian. Looks like the IDF way is better than yours.

[uponit7771]

252. "My way" has already been tried on other guerilla forces and worked better than bombing hospitals and starving people

IDF chooses to do this dirty, that's their fault

"Mostly" men. So, let's separate all the men out of Gaza, and since we can't tell Hamas from civilian, we'll have to kill all of them.

US didn't do this in Felucia, the fighting aged men were isolated from the women after stages of blockades and then even filtered after that. There was no recidivism because the fighting aged men were all healed and fed ... (feeding part is important) under heavy guard.

See, it worked there and we didn't have to murder everything moving seeing the people who wanted to fight were left in the town.

[yagotme]

254. Out of curiosity, where is Felucia?

All I get is Star Wars references. Do you mean Fallujah?

[SunSeeker]

259. If they mean Fallujah, that battle killed 700 civilians. Hardly a shining example of sparing noncombatants.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/iraq-war-fallujah-battle-documentary-excerpt/

[yagotme]

260. Like I said, I looked it up.

It's in the Star Wars genre, one of the planets. Not sure what the poster meant, just guessing.

[SunSeeker]

261. I'm pretty sure they mean Fallujah, but their assertion is wrong, either way.

The civilian death rate in Gaza is lower than other urban wars.

The U.N. examined the rate of civilian casualties in populated areas during conflicts in the year 2021. It found that 89 percent of deaths in urban areas were civilians.

Netanyahu said that about 30,000 people had been killed in Gaza since Oct. 7, of those he said 14,000 were “combatants” and “around 16,000 civilians have been killed.” There has not yet been any independent confirmation of Israel's estimates. News outlets have previously cited Hamas officials estimating between 6,000 and 8,000 of their fighters have been killed. https://time.com/6979208/israel-gaza-death-toll/

The Hamas-run Gaza Heath Ministry's death total of 35,000 includes Hamas fighters. So even using Hamas’s numbers, the civilian death toll in Gaza is (35k- 8k)÷35k or 77%, which is below average for urban warfare.

[Eko]

96. Why doesnt Israel?

It's their war.

[SunSeeker]

107. Israel already has 2 million Palestinians living in Israel.

How many are in Egypt?

[Eko]

148. Since Egypt is not creating this problem

I think it is incumbent on those that are. The ol you broke it you fix it. Why should Egypt? They were just sitting there minding their own business. Might as well ask why Great Brittan isn't taking them, or Canada, or the US?

[SunSeeker]

149. Egypt is RIGHT NEXT DOOR.

As is Jordan. Both Arab countries turning their backs on fellow Arab women and children.

Hamas is who "broke" this in starting this war. But they can't fix anything. All they know how to do is destroy.

[Eko]

150. Israel is RIGHT NEXT DOOR

and causing this problem. Yes, all the problems with the Palestinians and Israel started when Hamas did their horrible attack. Its not like Israel did anything but treat the Palestinians wonderfully prior to this. I read recently that there are 700,000 Israeli people in illegal settlements, I am sure that was welcomed by the Palestinians that they displaced, beat up, attacked, burnt their homes and farms and even killed. I cant see any reason for them to be upset. Bottom line is Egypt and Jordan did nothing to create this humanitarian nightmare and Israel did. Trying to put blame on them is just straight out dishonest. If you feel Israel is doing what they needed to do then accept the consequences of that, both good and bad and don't put it on people that HAD NOTHING TO DO with this. It's like me burning down my neighbors house two doors down because they did something to me making them homeless and destitute and then screaming WHY WONT MY NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR TAKE THEM IN!!! Taking responsibility for your own actions and not blaming them on others used to be a thing.

[SunSeeker]

160. Israel took in 2 million Palestinians. How many has Egypt taken in?

Israel is fighting a war Hamas started. So you "don't blame" Palestinians for "being upset," but do you blame Hamas for murdering and raping civilians, and firing rockets into Israel???

[Eko]

164. How many Palestinian refugees have they taken in from this conflict? 0.

Ya, I don't blame Palestinians for being upset just like I don't blame Israel for being upset. I do blame Hamas for all the shit they have done and I do blame Israel for all the shit they have done. I am sure Israel feels like Hamas started this war just like I am sure Palestinians blame Israel for starting this war. Really, how long can you keep people imprisoned before they decide to fight for their freedom? How long can you stand being attacked on a daily basis before you attack back? I'm talking about Israel there. The whole thing is a multi-generational region wide shit sandwich served on a huge platter because most western countries didn't want to give any of their land up for a Jewish homeland so they imposed it on a bunch of poor brown people because who really gave a fuck about any of them? Oh, and religion. The one thing to surely bring peace. I don't blame the Palestinians or the Israelis for being upset. I do blame both of them when they act like shit and I don't try to place the blame on people that have nothing to do with what is currently going on. Egypt and Jordan decided they had enough of that shit sandwich a while ago. One that was imposed upon them by the way. And when they decided they didn't like the way that wonderful shit sandwich actually tasted they left the table. So don't blame them for not wanting to go right back to that table and start eating that shit sandwich again. Lets just decide that they should for the sake of argument. Jordan and Egypt let in 2 million Palestinian refugees. What happens when some of them want to keep fighting and all of sudden you have attacks from Jordan and Egypt into Israel from the Palestinians? I know getting arms in either of those countries would be way hard but just for the argument lets suppose they do. How long before it becomes a huge problem for all three countries? I know that Israel is not into expansion but just suppose they do to the borders of both countries and you have another Hamas attack from Egypt or Jordan or both? Does that sound like something that Jordan and Egypt should do? Should they risk the peace they have with Israel to clean up that mess? One that was foisted on them by the way? If you are going to blame anyone blame the ones that decided that would be a great place to give everyone there a big ol shit sandwich and then blame the ones that keep going back to that table for more servings. 700,000 settlers in illegal settlements on Palestinian land is asking for more servings. Hamas doing what they did and then Israel killing over 30,000 civilians in response is asking for more servings. Not being a party to this is not asking for more of that shit sandwich. You are putting blame on the wrong people. Blame the people who keep eating from that table.

[SunSeeker]

167. Wow, so you forgive Egypt not letting in Gazan women & children because they'll start a war with Israel?

That's quite an opinion you have of Gazan women and children.

[Eko]

168. I never, ever discount women and children.

You may choose to do that but I wont. First of all women are powerful and children grow up to be adults. You can underestimate them but I would never, ever do that.

[SunSeeker]

169. Suggesting Gazan women and children will shoot rockets into Israel from Egypt is not "empowering" them.

It's defaming them.

We're talking about starved women and children refugees sheltering from war in Egypt, and you're suggesting they're going to be as blood thirsty as Hamas terrorists and will start a war from Egypt by trying to kill Israelis -- while in Egypt.

WTF

[Eko]

177. If you think women cant fight and children wont grow up then fine.

I am suggesting that some of them will, and then Egypt will be in a very tough place. You can continue to think that Egypt should take care of Israels mess, I for one don't. That is just pushing the problem down the line and will cause even more conflict.

[SunSeeker]

181. Wow, so let these women and children risk death rather than put Egypt in a "tough place"?

You obviously think Egypt having it easy is more important than saving these women's and children's lives. But yeah, it certainly doesn't push "the problem down the road" if they're dead.

What you are claiming about these women and children, that they will wage war against Israel, makes them unacceptable to any country as refugees. What you are basically claiming is that they are not civilians, and thus are valid targets for Israel.

[Eko]

182. Its amazing how you just let Israel stay out of the conversation as far as who can take care of them.

And who put them in that place. It's a bit like you have a blind spot in that regard. Everyone is responsible except Israel. Why is that? Why cant Israel take care of them? Is Israel not capable of setting up humanitarian zones in Gaza to take care of the civilians? Can they not work with local officials to get this accomplished? How is it that you can just gloss over all of that to come to the conclusion that its Egypt's fault for not taking them in and risk becoming entangled in a war and that not doing that is having it easy. Why does Israel get to have it easy in this regard? Once again if you break it you fix it and Israel is not even attempting to fix it. I have no problem with Israel trying to defeat Hamas, I am with them in that endeavor, I support my country the US in helping them with that even as far as sending our troops in. I do have a problem with Israel creating a humanitarian catastrophe with their methods, methods that any 1st world military knows are doomed to kill a lot of people including a large number of civilians and create said catastrophe and then doing nothing to help alleviate it. Or do you think Israel is so stupid they did not know that destroying pretty much all the infrastructure, stopping pretty much all aid such as food and water, medical items, basic survival supplies to a country that has all closed borders would not result in a humanitarian disaster? Beyond that I have a problem with people then trying to place the blame on other countries that have nothing to do with this while the country that started this has from the beginning and still to this day done nothing but to make the problem worse. If you support Israel and think everything that is happening is fine then great, support them. If you don't think it is going fine then any blame obviously lies with the people doing the operation, Don't blame others though and not expect to get called out on it.

[SunSeeker]

183. It's amazing that you care more about punishing Israel than saving these women and children. nt

[Eko]

184. Exactly how do I want to punish Israel?

[SunSeeker]

185. You want to blame Israel for everything and stop all support for Israel. nt

[Eko]

186. Lol.

I blame Israel for the mess it created, yes, but nowhere, nowhere at all on here or anywhere will you find me saying we should stop all support for Israel. I even said I support Israel in destroying Hamas and I further support the US, my country, of which my family and friends serve in the military of sending in US troops to help or even to take over. I want to blame Israel for creating the humanitarian crisis they created, you want to blame others. So yes, Lol.

[SunSeeker]

187. How does Israel destroy Hamas without civilian deaths if these women and children stay in Gaza as human shields?

I know this gives you lolz, but it is a serious question.

[Eko]

188. That does not give me a lolz, and I grow tiresome of conversations where people

either forget what I had previously said or attribute to me things I did not say. Do you remember this? "Is Israel not capable of setting up humanitarian zones in Gaza to take care of the civilians? Can they not work with local officials to get this accomplished?"
This was all in a previous reply to you, one where you neglected to answer those questions but regardless I present them to you again. It is quite possible to set up secure zones, even ones that are protected and policed by the populace. Might be a little bit harder in Gaza because Israel pretty much demolished and killed the local police forces but they can help set up another one to get this completed as well as use their own forces to protect the area. Will it be perfect? Of course not, nothing, anywhere, ever is. But its a damn sight better than what is going on now isn't it? I think your problems with our conversation is that you think I am Anti-Israel when I am not. What I am anti is anti-stupidity, I am anti using militaries as a blunt forces when doing so just creates more problems and does not achieve any kind of objective that is commensurate with the damage they incur. This will end in one of two ways each with huge losses to civilian life. A diplomatic agreement with Israel and Palestine (that could have happened way sooner and spared many lives) or a mission accomplished flag from Israel with them tucking their tail and going home. If you are not familiar with the latter google George Bush Mission Accomplished flag. They will not destroy Hamas just like we did not destroy Al Qaeda or the Taliban for the exact same reasons.

[SunSeeker]

189. So you want Israel to take in people you say will go to war with them?

It is you who appears to have forgotten what you said, not me.



Israel has already set up humanitarian zones in Gaza, but Hamas keeps going into them and using the civilians as shields, like what happened in Rafah.

[Eko]

190. Jeeze, do you even read what I said?

"Is Israel not capable of setting up humanitarian zones in Gaza to take care of the civilians? Can they not work with local officials to get this accomplished?"
Is Gaza in Israel?

[SunSeeker]

191. Yes, I do, that is why what you're asking doesn't make sense.

You believe these women and children that you want to keep in Gaza will turn into combatants against Israel, so why put them in or near Israel?

And as I also noted in Post 189:

"Israel has already set up humanitarian zones in Gaza, but Hamas keeps going into them and using the civilians as shields, like what happened in Rafah."

[Eko]

192. Did Israel create a security force around the zone?

Did they help the locals create a security force around the zone?
Did they bring in supplies to the zone?
Did they help set up medical relief in the zone?
Did they do anything other than just say, hey, go here?
Did they create a secure area for the civilians to go to?
Did they at least try to do this?
No, they did not.
With guerrilla warfare you have to win over the hearts and minds of the populace that currently supports the guerillas. They did nothing to do that whatsoever. They didn't even try. They just said go here, then they bombed them and said go there. They even bombed the UN and other relief orgs trying to help the people of Gaza. With actions like that then they are ensuring that some of the civilians of Gaza will indeed turn into combatants.

[SunSeeker]

193. Yes, they did. It wasn't enough to keep Hamas from infiltrating the zones.

How do you win over Palestinian hearts and minds when what they want is for Israel to not exist? They want Palestine's borders to run from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.

[Eko]

200. Really? That's interesting.

I have not seen where they did create those zones with security around them with supplies. Can you tell me tell me where they did it?

[SunSeeker]

210. Rafah for one. But Hamas still established a base there.

Because Hamas does not care if they will "martyr" women and children by setting up rocket launchers in their midst.

[Eko]

212. They did nothing more than tell people to go there.

They did not set up any security, help set up any security nor any humanitarian help. So, no, they did not.

[SunSeeker]

213. Rafah is encircled by military. It has more security than most places in Gaza.

Rafah also has more humanitarian help than other relocation camps in Gaza. That is why Gazans have been reluctant to leave Rafah, even after Hamas brought fighting there.

The difficult reality is Gazans support Hamas and shelter them.

[Eko]

214. I could not find where they did that.

Of course I am not talking about setting up a security force around the city but the refugee encampment. Past that I am still not sure they have done so for the city.

[Eko]

215. Also, if it has more security than most places in Gaza then how was Hamas in there?

And why did they need to use an airstrike to kill Hamas which also killed a lot of civilians? If they are providing security for it then why not send in a force to get them instead?

[SunSeeker]

217. Because the civilians let Hamas hide among them.

Pretty hard to police that sort of thing.

Turns out Hamas set up rocket launchers using tunnels under Rafah. That was bombed.

And the most recent airstrike was in the Tel Sultan area of western Rafah, which targeted and killed the commander of Hamas’s so-called West Bank headquarters — charged with advancing attacks against Israel in and from the West Bank — as well as another top member of the unit. Unfortunately, nearby tents which had noncombatants in them were also engulfed by the explosion. The strike did not take place in the designated “humanitarian zone” in the al-Mawasi region on the coast, where the military has called Palestinians to evacuate to in recent weeks.https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-top-lawyer-says-very-grave-rafah-incident-being-investigated/amp/

[Eko]

220. You are correct that it was outside of the zones.

I followed your link and read it and came to this part.
"The IDF in its statement said that the strike was carried out based on intelligence information on the presence of the terrorists in the area,” and that beforehand, it had carried out “many steps to reduce the chance of harming uninvolved [civilians], including aerial surveillance, the use of precision munitions, and additional intelligence information.” "“Based on [these steps] it was estimated that no harm was expected to uninvolved civilians,” the IDF said."
I wonder how they know they killed the two Hamas members. They didn't go in there to verify it so I imagine that they are relying on intelligence information for that as well. I believe its logical to believe their intelligence information may be faulty as it was obviously so in the first place. Following that logic leaves open the possibility that they didn't even kill any Hamas people and/or that they were not even there and just killed a lot of civilians. If they used aerial surveillance then they should have known there was the presence of civilians and that there would be a lot of civilian deaths. But the intelligence was incorrect. What are your thoughts on those points I brought up?

[uponit7771]

237. Like US did in Felucia, staggered blockade then separate all men of fighting age in one group then womenchildren in ..

... next and separate both groups from clearing area.

KILL everything moving that's left in cleared area that didn't want to leave or be filtered out with men of fighting age on up.

12 sectors would've taken 3 months at the most ... not perfect but better than "using food as a weapon"

The problem IDF faced with guerilla forces like HAMAS has already be solved years ago, the IDF decided on their own to go the way of the barbarian.

[SunSeeker]

257. 315,190 civilians were directly killed in our war with Iraq. Hardly a good example to follow.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi

And 576,000 children starved to death as a result of the sanctions we pushed for on Iraq. https://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html

Our actions in Iraq are not the shining example of not "using food as a weapon" that you are suggesting.

[Crunchy Frog]

208. When did Israel ever "take in" any Palestinians?

Their failing to expell all of them at the time the state was founded does not count.

I expect that they will eventually claim Gaza and the West Bank as their own, and then say that the Palestinians living there are ones they "took in" as well.

Pretty sure that Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon took in many refugees, but aren't particularly interested in having the rest of the Palestinian population permanently displaced into their countries.

[SunSeeker]

209. Israel has taken in a lot more Palestinians than Egypt ever did.

From 1993 to 2003, between 100,000 and 140,000 Palestinians from West Bank and Gaza became legal residents and settled in Israel.

Jordan took in a lot, but those refugees conspired in an armed insurrection led by the PLO to overthrow the government of Jordan in June of 1970 and basically make Jordan Palestine. In 1971 the PLO was forcibly expelled from the country by the Jordanian army. It was a mess. That's the real reason Egypt and the other Arab countries refuse to let in Palestinians.

[Crunchy Frog]

219. So, first you claim they took in 2 million,

but then it got knocked down to ~100,000 over a period of 10 years. From what I have been able to gather, that was not refugees being taken in, but was about family reunification. It looks like it was mostly about Israeli citizens who married Palestinians, and then tried to exercise their legal right to have their spouses be allowed to live with them in Israel. This is what I was able to find about that. A law that enshrined the 2nd class status of Israeli Arab citizens.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law

You're not really very good at this are you?

[SunSeeker]

221. There ARE 2 million Palestinians in Israel. They make up 21% of the Israeli population.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-the-war-means-for-palestinians-inside-israel#:~:text=While%20the%20media's%20focus%20has,cent%20of%20the%20country's%20population.

I don't know how all of them got there, but Israel has not kicked them out, Israel let them stay in. Unlike Jordan, who did kick a lot of its Palestinians out. So yes, Israel has taken in 2 million Palestinians.

I cited one example of a wave of Palestinian immigration into Israel, because you suggested such things never happened. A simple Google search brought that up. That was an example and not meant to account for how every one of the 2 million Palestinians in Israel got there.

[Crunchy Frog]

223. They're descended from the minority of Palestinians

who weren't ethnically cleansed at the time of the founding of the state of Israel. They are not Palestinians that Israel "took in".

Please stop trying to treat me like I'm an idiot or completely ignorant about Israeli history.

[SunSeeker]

230. They are immigrants and descendants.

As I said above, in just one wave of immigration from 1993 to 2003, about 140,000 Palestinians immigrated into Israel. In 1948, only about 150,000 Palestinian Arabs were in the area that became the state of Israel that year. https://lsa.umich.edu/content/dam/cmenas-assets/cmenas-documents/unit-of-israel-palestine/Section1_PalestinianArabCitizensOfIsrael.pdf
So it seems pretty clear some are descendants and some are immigrants (or descendants of immigrants). If Israel was interested in ethnic cleansing, it wouldn't keep 2 million Palestinians within its own borders.

I'm not treating you like an idiot. I'm responding to you and answering your questions the best I can, without insults. You're the one throwing around snarky insults like, "You're not really very good at this are you?"

I think we've exhausted the point of this conversation. It's late. Hope you had a good Memorial Day. Good night.

[Crunchy Frog]

231. I'm sure that explains why 700,000 were ethnically cleansed.

It's a well known and acknowledged historical event.

You're right, this conversation no longer has any point, and I will be putting you on ignore so there won't be anymore. Good morning.

[TomDaisy]

102. why should they be forced to solve a problem Israel is causing????

[SunSeeker]

106. It is a problem HAMAS caused. Israel has a right to destroy Hamas, just like we had a right to destroy Al Qaeda. nt

[TomDaisy]

110. so if Israel is destroying Hamas, why do the civilians need to go to Egypt

[SunSeeker]

113. Because Hamas is using civilians as human shields. nt

[TomDaisy]

114. So Israel is killing more than Hamas

[SunSeeker]

115. The civilian deaths are the result of Hamas using them as human shields. nt

[Nanjeanne]

143. You won't win. And the needle threading must allow some to sleep better at night. I'll never understand it.

[marble falls]

32. IDF has told them that going south was for refuge. It's only a cover for concentrating them and putting them into ...

... harms way.

[SunSeeker]

64. It is Hamas who moved with them to the south and turned Rafah into their base of operations.

Where is your anger at HAMAS for bringing the fighting to the refugees?

[obamanut2012]

59. Gosh, those darn children not being proactive and leaving

Come on.

[SunSeeker]

62. So you absolve Hamas from using these kids as human shields?

Of course those kids aren't responsible for being there. What a sick thing to suggest.

The people responsible for those kids still being there all these months later are the adults in their lives, and Hamas.

[obamanut2012]

244. Please show me where I said that

[SunSeeker]

256. No, I'm asking you a question. Care to answer it? nt

[AloeVera]

89. So easy, always to Blame Hamas for every ill caused by Israel.

Do you seriously think that the 300,000 or so people still in the north were all forced by Hamas to become "human shields"? That thought never occurred to them in all likelihood. Plus Hamas was "gone" from the neighbourhood for months, at least according to Israel. So what could have made them stay?

They are traumatized, scared out of their wits by the war machinery, weak and hungry for months, afraid to go into the unknown, to travel roads under bombardment, or maybe too old, too sick, wounded or just plain terrified. Afraid to leave their homes for some unknown reason. It's not like Israel would ever NOT let them return to their homes, right? The Nakba was just a fevered dream, too.

[SunSeeker]

108. Well, considering the facts, yes, it is easy to blame Hamas.

Hamas tried to stop civilians from leaving Gaza City. This is on Hamas.

Every time I hear someone use the Hamas term "Nakba," I know where they get their information from.

[AloeVera]

116. Ah, a Nakba-denier.

And incorrigible Hamas-Blamer for all evils committed by Israel.

Well, nothing more to say.

[Beastly Boy]

130. What, nothing more to say about Hamas trying to stop civilians from leaving Gaza City?

Lost for words all of a sudden?

[AloeVera]

131. I answered that already in #89. It was not responded to.

Making an unsubstantiated or weak assertion twice, and not responding to a counter-argument means that discussion is over for me.

[Beastly Boy]

137. From your response #89:

Do you seriously think that the 300,000 or so people still in the north were all forced by Hamas to become "human shields"? That thought never occurred to them in all likelihood. Plus Hamas was "gone" from the neighbourhood for months, at least according to Israel. So what could have made them stay?

Do you consider this an adequate rebuke to "Hamas tried to stop civilians from leaving Gaza city"?

"All forced by Hamas to become human shields"? What does this ridiculous hyperbole have to do with Hamas trying to stop civilians from leaving Gaza City? Are you pretending that civilians only become human shields when being forced, and that moving military assets into civilian areas and stopping civilians from leaving doesn't turn them into human shields?

"Plus Hamas was "gone" from the neighbourhood for months, at least according to Israel. So what could have made them stay?" Hamas was gone from Gaza City AFTER they made the civilians stay and be used as human shields. By the time Hamas left, there was no Hamas to threaten them (duh!), and I don't blame the civilians for staying in the area free of the Hamas threat. Funny how there are no reports of mass civilian casualties where Hamas is not around, isn't it? Tragically for the civilians, Hamas came back and resumed the practice of using them as human shields.

Your post 89 is merely a string of speculations and spin. It is an attempt to skirt the issue, not to address it. It didn't deserve a response, but you got one anyway. Or did you miss Sun Seeker's post 108 in response to your post 89? Since you replied to it with "Well, nothing more to say" (post #116), your claim that you were not responded to is pretty fantastic.

[AloeVera]

140. Trying to absolve Israel of responsibility is the essence of the human shield narrative.

The Post I responded to was this:

18. Why are there any kids in Gaza City? They were supposed to have evacuated months ago.

So sick of Hamas using civilians as shields, and getting a pass for it, whole Israel gets blamed.

The assertion is that the kids are there because Hamas made them stay to serve as human shields. I answered with reasons why there might be kids still in Gaza City, none having to do with them being used as human shields. I pointed out the absurdity of believing Hamas essentially forced 300,000 people to stay, which ignores completely their very painful lived reality.

There was no response to my assertions, only an unsubstantiated statement that Hamas tried to stop people from leaving. The response seemed to be skirting the issues I raised, so yes, nothing more to say to that poster about this.

But since you seem rather outraged about my posts, you must have some convincing evidence that Hamas tried to stop people from leaving or otherwise caused them to become human shields. Can you share? Don't bother with the audio recording released by the IDF. Anything else?

After all, your side is framing the death and suffering of these kids as the fault of Hamas, while trying to absolve Israel of any responsibility. That's a little far-fetched for a lot of people, given who is actually dropping those bombs on these schools and shelters.You need to bring receipts to be believed or it just seems like a lot of hot air and gaslighting.

The last question I have for you, is what do you think about Israel bombing a school full of sheltering children and killing 10, wounding many and inflicting such suffering on them? Do you condemn?

[SunSeeker]

146. I condemn Hamas hiding under schools and hospitals, causing civilian casualties in a war they started. nt

[Beastly Boy]

154. Trying to absolve Hamas of responsibility is the essence of human shield denialism.

Last edited Sun May 26, 2024, 01:33 AM - Edit history (2)

Let me assure you, it takes more than a random post on an anonymous board to create in me a sense of outrage. I just came across a thread that contained particularly egregious claims, and yours just happened, by sheer accident, to be prominently featured in it. Please don't mistake my intent to call out BS for outrage, whether it relates to your posts or anyone else's.

Since you cited the post you responded to word for word, you forfeit any claims of plausible deniability with respect to awareness of its content. It is out there for all to read and discover for themselves that there is no hint of any "assertion that the kids are there because Hamas made them stay to serve as human shields" in it. So if this is what you thought you addressed in your answer, congratulations: you just toppled the strawman of your own making. There was a response to your post for sure, but understandably, it ignored this fallacy.

Instead, the response was that, despite your considerable pains to make it difficult, it is indeed easy to blame Hamas. And that Hamas tried to stop civilians from leaving Gaza City, making Hamas responsible for detaining civilians in a war zone as well as causing their deaths, and thus making any hypothetical absolution of Israel redundant. And I feel sorry for the people who find this a little far fetched and who feel the need to fall back on their outrage to avoid issues.

I do have plenty of convincing reports of Hamas trying to stop people from leaving Gaza City, but something tells me they will not convince you unless they come from Haniyeh's personal secretary via the Hamas health agency. Since you asked me not to bother with the IDF audio recording of a Palestinian eyewitness, I take it that you are already aware of it. But I will bother anyway, not necessarily for your benefit but for the record:

IDF: Gaza resident says Hamas preventing evacuations; thousands return north
Israel released audio of what it said was a Gazan man telling an IDF officer that Hamas is blocking people from fleeing the northern Gaza Strip

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-gaza-resident-says-hamas-preventing-evacuations-thousands-return-north/

As for the rest of the reports, feel free to not be bothered by them as well:

2:21 a.m. ET, October 13, 2023
Hamas tells Gaza residents not to leave their homes after IDF warns civilians to evacuate
Hamas on Friday told Palestinians living in Gaza not to leave their homes, according to a statement sent to media organizations.
The armed group, which governs the territory, accused Israel of engaging in “psychological warfare” by sending messages that told Palestinian civilians and employees of international organizations to evacuate to the south.

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-13-23/h_ad9fb74f40837ae2aca06c68bc57cd92

‘They are shooting at people,’ Gazan says Hamas preventing evacuation to safety
IDF releases recording of call urging civilians to move southward to safety ahead of Israeli strike as part of military intelligence effort to minimize civilian casualties.
The IDF on Thursday, revealed a recording of a resident of Gaza explaining how the Hamas terror group was preventing civilians from evacuating to the south of the Strip to escape Israeli attacks. The man spoke on the phone with an IDF officer who called to urge him to leave.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bjqk4hpft

Hamas Tells Civilians Not to Evacuate to the South

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/hamas-tells-civilians-not-to-evacuate-to-the-south-T9TX4p5KHl930OHJDyfp

Hamas seen blocking evacuation routes in Gaza - IDF
Hamas has attempted to block Palestinians from evacuating the northern Gaza Strip, placing roadblocks on evacuation routes designated by the IDF, the IDF Spokesperson's Unit said Saturday.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hamas-seen-blocking-evacuation-routes-in-gaza-idf/ar-AA1idSJV

As for your last question, you pretty much know my response, and I see no reason for asking it yet again other than the already mentioned need to fall back on the outrage and avoid issues: All of these children would have been alive and unharmed today were it not for the terrorist animals who invaded Israel on Oct 7. And yes, I condemn the vicious criminals who are the root cause of these deaths... Do you concur?

[AloeVera]

171. I condemn...

Two of your sources reference the same recording released by the IDF.

The rest capture Hamas' public statement of Oct 13 or so, asking residents not to leave.

There is a pic of what appears to be roadblock and video of a car being blown up on the road.

All these happened on or around Oct 13.

I still don't see evidence that Hamas forced these children, or anyone else, to stay for nearly 8 months so they can be used as human shields.

Of course you are free to cling to your beliefs.

Good to know you are not outraged, it's bad for your health.

No, I did not think you would come out and condemn the bombing of a school and the death and suffering of the children sheltering there.

Most atrocities in history have some sort of "root cause" that is claimed by the perpetrators of evil deeds. Hamas claimed root causes for Oct 7. Terror groups all over claim to be justified by root causes. Now Israel and supporters claim root causes for their own atrocities and war crimes

Atrocities and war crimes are the sole responsibility of those committing them, no matter what the cause. If we condemn Hamas, we must also condemn Israel.

Yes, I condemn Israel for the war crime of bombing a school and harming children.

[sarisataka]

174. It seems there is never any "if"

Only the "also"

[Beastly Boy]

176. You can condemn anything you wish regardless of the evidence.

I gave you what you wanted. What you do with it is not my problem. By all means, dismiss the duplicates, the dates, or dismiss the reports in their entirety. This will not make them disappear. Also, as noted previously, use of force is only one of several means to turn civilians into human shields, and insisting that absence of compulsion by force translates into absence of human shields makes for yet another straight-out fallacy.

Likewise, suggesting that the absence of Hamas in north Gaza for the eight months in which there were no reports of mass civilian casualties is somehow an indicator of Hamas not using human shields in the area is absurd to the extreme. It takes complete disregard for correlation between cause and effect to suggest such relationship. Of course you will see no evidence that Hamas forced these children to stay for nearly 8 months so they can be used as human shields! Hamas wasn't there to force anyone to do anything (duh!), and apparently no one was foolish enough to move out of the area made safer by their absence. Unfortunately for the Gazan civilians, Hamas returned, and, speaking of root causes, you know full well what happened when they did...

And now you are conflating root causes for civilian deaths n Gaza, the deaths being a direct consequence of Hamas' stated tactics of using human shields, with root causes for justifying war crimes, the crimes being a direct consequence of their justification. I couldn't agree with you more about atrocities and war crimes being the sole responsibility of those committing them. And since the atrocity in question is using human shields, who is the sole party which is committing this atrocity? Don't bother, it's a rhetorical question.

And if you were to tell me that you are not aware of the difference between the root cause for the consequences of an atrocity and the root cause for justifying it, or that conflating the two was not a deliberate sleight of hand, I would find it hard to believe.

[AloeVera]

179. It's enough.

At least 28 people, mostly women and children, have been burned alive by 8 IDF airstrikes on a supposedly "safe" camp for the displaced in Western Rafah. Fire burning for hours, likely many more casualties.

There is no excuse, no justification. No words, debates, arguments. If this is not wrong and evil, then there is no morality and we live in a jungle.

I will not be engaging in any more debates with anyone who is still justifying and defending this.

[Beastly Boy]

180. In this case, expect more debates.

Notwithstanding your repeated attempts to outrage yourself out of substantive responses, this tactic will not get you to claiming higher moral ground. You will be challenged. You will be challenged whether you can muster a substantive response or not, and you will be challenged no matter how remote my posts are from justifying or defending whatever you choose to deflect to.

You will be challenged on what you are attempting to deflect from.

[Nixie]

173. That poster condemns Israel for everything ever done

from 80 years ago, but absolves Hamas from any orders or threats to their own Palestinian people in October of last year. It's hard to take that seriously.

[obamanut2012]

245. The poster has not absolved Hamas for anything -- these accusations are scurrilous and untrue

[SunSeeker]

147. LOL. When did you start using the Arab term Nakba, AloeVera?

The creation of Israel is not a "Catastrophe." I don't hate Jews and I think they have a right to their own homeland. If that makes me a "Nakba-denier," then so be it.

Nor am I a Hamas apologist who seeks to blame everyone but the sick fucks who raped and shot their way through civilians and a youth music festival to start this war. So, yes I'm a "Hamas-Blamer," because Hamas is to blame for this war.

[AloeVera]

153. When I took the blinders off that us Westerners wear on Israel's history.

You should try it.

But you know that's NOT what makes you a Nakba denier. That is a very glib and not very honest answer. It sounds very hasbara-ish. But whatever, you do your thang.

The denial comes from a lack of any acknowledgement or recognition that 1948, while joyous for Israelis, was the opposite for Palestinians. It was indeed a catastrophe for them.

Why deny them that basic human recognition and compassion for anyone who has suffered a loss?

Not only is that missing in your perspective but then you pour salt in the wound by implying only "Jew haters" and those who dont want a homeland for Jews refer to the Nakba. That's a pretty neat trick for neutralizing anyone daring to speak for the Palestinian side and an attempt to negate their history as if only the Israeli version of history existed. Perhaps for you that is true.

I've always been on the side of the underdog, the oppressed, the unheard and made-invisible etc so I have a special place in my heart for the Palestinians. Long before Hamas came on the scene, which was a dismaying event for me.

So no, I don't apologize for Hamas. But I don't blame Hamas for actions that Israel has taken. Hamas did not force, persuade or decide for Israel to wage this "war" in such a criminal, cruel and inhuman way. If you try to blame that on Hamas you are justifying and enabling Israel to continue the slaughter of civilians.

Good night.

[SunSeeker]

156. Now "hasbara" has entered your lexicon!

Sounds like you exchanged an old set of blinders with new ones.

Do you think Israel should exist?

[AloeVera]

158. Of course it should!

Right alongside Palestine.

But since Israel already exists and Palestine doesn't...

Do you think Palestine should exist?

If you do, where? If not, I'll teach you some other words in my "lexicon" lol.

[SunSeeker]

162. Yes, I believe in a 2 state solution, UNLIKE Hamas, SJP and most Palestinians.

The folks who throw around words like "Nakba" and "hasbara" believe Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, "from the river to the sea." I gotta hand it to them, SJP's propaganda has worked well on some progressives and clueless college students. Sadly, I fear all this propaganda will do is get Trump elected.

[AloeVera]

163. That's something to fear for sure.

But it won't be SJP or the progressives who will get him elected. I do fear though, that the repercussions from full-throttled support of this "war" might.

[SunSeeker]

165. No, seeing so many progressives being Hamas terrorist apologists will push independents to Trump.

That's why Putin has been creating fake social media accounts of supposed progressives pushing Hamas propaganda on the internet. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/russia-trying-exploit-americas-divisions-war-gaza-rcna149759

[AloeVera]

170. Just cant give up the "terrorist apologist" smear?

Instead of blaming everyone under the sun, maybe do a little reflection on the images and sounds in the video in the o/p. The cries of that first child, a little girl, and tens of thousands grievously wounded or dead that we never saw, is what is lost in this stupid, pointless debate we're having. But that is the essence of the evil inflicted by this "war" and it will have an impact at the voting booth. Most voters do care about right and wrong.

[SunSeeker]

175. It's not a smear, it's the truth. The SJP, who is coordinating the campus protests, is pro Hamas.

They're the ones who drove the UC grad students to strike. The first strike is taking place at UC Santa Cruz right now. Here's the UCSC SJC chapter laying out what they stand for:




As their point #2 says, Hamas terrorism is "necessary" "resistance" and their a goal, as point #3 states, is to end the existence of Israel.

Maybe you should do a little reflection on that.

[David__77]

132. It is a United Nations term.

https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/

That is, if someone using it makes it “their” term. It was used long before Hamas existed.

[SunSeeker]

145. No, as your link says, it's an ARAB term referring to the creation of Israel as the "Catastrophe."

Sure, the term has been used for a long time--by terrorists--who want to wipe Israel off the map. And now the term has been adopted by the useful idiots at campus protests who let the Hamas-supporting SJP lead them around by the nostrils. SJP, in keeping with the terrorist supporting outfit that it is, seeks the destruction of Israel. Check out the SJP statement for their UC Santa Cruz chapter:

[TomDaisy]

21. Arrest that butcher Netanyahu the second he touches American soil

[sarisataka]

28. On what grounds?

[marble falls]

35. Three different international courts are seeking warrants, here's one that's been the most active ...

... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-21/icc-arrest-warrants-israel-hamas-what-happens-next/103872566

[sarisataka]

37. "Seeking warrants"

[SunSeeker]

51. The US does not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC.

So on what grounds would Netanyahu be arrested in the US?

[MFM008]

152. Maybe not

But other countries do, and are bound to act on an indictment.

[SunSeeker]

157. So how would that get him arrested in the UNITED STATES?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

204. Maybe Netanyahu insulted his daughter? NT

[HarryM]

27. I have heard some folks say

That they may be harboring Hamas, so they are as guilty.
Not my opinion, just the opinion of folks I see round and about various places in real life and the Internet.

[colorado_ufo]

31. Perhaps the underlying answer is not the acceptable number of casualties.

The answer may lie in, after all the damage, has bombing been the effective way to deal with Hamas? If they are in underground tunnels, why are schools and hospitals and refugee camps being bombed? How many Hamas leaders have been eliminated?

Am I pushing diplomacy? I am proposing looking for something more effective, and diplomacy may not be the way, although if Hamas leaders are hiding out in other countries, that may be the most productive option. Where is Mossad? What has happened to possibly the world's foremost intelligence agency? Hamas needs to be pinpointed and taken out with surgical precision or stealth.

Killing mass numbers of innocent Palestinian children accomplishes nothing, and this includes interfering with food and other aid.

In any event, the definition of insanity remains doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results.

[Mz Pip]

34. Hamas could end this now

Release the remaining hostages and agree to negotiate. Unfortunately, civilian carnage serves them better.

[David__77]

36. So, Israel is serving Hamas' aims?

I can understand that perspective.

[Beastly Boy]

41. How?

What do you propose Hamas' aims are that Israel is serving?

[David__77]

42. I was referring to the post to which I responded.

[Beastly Boy]

44. I see nothing in that post that would lead you to presume that Israel

is serving Hamas' aims. I am aware you are referring to the post you responded to, I just see no connection between it and your response.

Enlighten me.

[Mz Pip]

43. What has Hamas done for its people?

It gets plenty of foreign aid but its leaders live in palaces in Qatar. The people live in squalor while they build tunnels and set up munitions depots under schools and hospitals. They start a war they know they can’t win and wait for enough Palestinians to die so the anti-Israel sentiment around the world will be outraged and come to support them.

[SunSeeker]

53. Yup, that about sums it up.

Sad how many people are lapping up Hamas(Iran) propaganda.

[betsuni]

77. Exactly.

[AloeVera]

46. So you agree tha Israel is committing carnage of civilians.

Then their goals align, is what I'm hearing. Hamas wants, and Israel obliges. Israel would not be so obliging if it didn't share the same goal, no? I don't see Israel ever doing Hamas' bidding unless it coincidentally aligns with its own interests.

Of course there is also the possibility, rarely considered, that even Hamas did not foresee this level of carnage and truly wants it to stop. Or that they'd hoped to avoid carnage and that is why they took hostages. Which they have been trying to return since Oct 10th but Netty and his sick Ministers wanted to go the carnage route instead.

Btw civilian carnage is also called collective punishment and it is a war crime.

[Mossfern]

47. If they truly wanted it to stop

then they would surrender and agree to peace negotiations and return all the hostages,
dead or alive.

[sarisataka]

48. Hamas has been trying to return the hostages since Oct 10?

I bet that's news to Hamas.

[AloeVera]

50. It was revealed in the Times of Israel.

But I knew about it back in October. It was in one of the statements by Hamas.

The current claim is made by the ex-spokesperson of an Israeli hostage release advocacy group.

“We later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip, but the government rejected the offer.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/amp/

[SunSeeker]

54. LOL That is NOT "trying to return the hostages." What a sick fucking joke.

Holding the hostages to keep Israel from entering the Gaza Strip is the very definition of hostage taking.

Hamas: "Don't come any closer or you'll never see the hostages again!"

You: OH, THANK YOU SO MUCH HAMAS FOR TRYING TO RETURN THE HOSTAGES!

[sarisataka]

61. I wouldn't call that "trying to return"

More like 'return some in exchange for immunity'

[AloeVera]

81. Well, yes. They didn't take the hostages with no purpose.

The point is the hostages could have been released. Still could, but Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire and Israel wants to finish Gaza Hamas.

[sarisataka]

84. Or, this is crazy but hear me out,

If Hamas had chosen to not murder over a thousand Israelis, not conduct mass rape and mutilation they would have had no need to take hostages. Israel wasn't considering invading Gaza so the matter would have been moot.

[Ace Rothstein]

65. Yes, taking the word of the most trustworthy terror group known to man.

/s

[AloeVera]

78. Umm, so why has Israel been negotiating with them for months?

If their statements don't mean anything?

Somebody better tell Israel.

[Ace Rothstein]

83. Outside of the initial hostage release, all they've done is talk.

Because Hamas isn't to be trusted.

[Iggo]

57. Israel could end this now.

[SunSeeker]

70. Why? Hamas continues to shoot rockets at Israelis. Should Israel just let it happen?

It is HAMAS who could end this now by surrendering.

[sarisataka]

73. Yes

"Hamas continues to shoot rockets at Israelis. Should Israel just let it happen?"

That is exactly what many think Israel should do. "Ceasefire Now" applies only to Israel.

There are even those who believe Israel had no justification for responding to October 7. Some of them are in the UN.

[Iggo]

55. Yeah, but they started it. (n/t)

[leftstreet]

101. DURec

[Aussie105]

126. Got to question a lot of this thread.

The excuse making and diversion from the thread title has reached a never before seen crescendo.
I have to wonder why.

[ilovegamers43]

128. Kids of any race should matter

I fear for humanity on our level of decline over sympathy and empathy for one another.

[obamanut2012]

198. Thank you

It is like Opposite Day.

[gulliver]

135. Pro-Palestinian voices that argue for (or fail to argue against) Hamas should be ignored

No matter what they say, you can be assured it's morally wrong and both intellectually and ethically questionable. Their unstated conclusion, that Hamas should be left in charge of Gaza to kill future innocents in Israel and elsewhere, tells you all you need to know about their thinking. The sob stories these lost people wield so emotionally and performatively were deliberately and cynically created by Hamas as weapons against their moral betters in the civilized world.

[David__77]

136. Referring to the killings of children as "sob stories" is deeply insensitive and dismissive.

[gulliver]

139. They are "sob stories" when foolishly or cynically used as tools in service of preserving Hamas

The tragic stories are, foolishly or cynically, used to protect Hamas's future ability to mass murder and torture countless innocents until the end of time. That's the truth of it. It can be a thoughtless or a conniving echo of the cowardly (and bestially evil) use of innocents by Hamas as shields. There can be no fully presented Pro-Palestinian argument that isn't either foolish or evil (or both) that doesn't acknowledge these simple truths.

[iemanja]

227. Where in the article did it say Hamas was active in that school?

I didn't see it. Yours seems like a reflective excuse to justify IDF war crimes.

[jcmaine72]

159. Not to mention disgusting and nauseating

[Nixie]

138. Yes, you can't be "pro-human" and pro-terrorist at the same time.

That's when you know to ignore them.

Now they must realize why Israel is so against Jewish kids being killed, as well. But that doesn't seem to be the case, as we see.

[David__77]

141. I don't think killing Palestinian children is a "sob story".

[Nixie]

151. The reference was about the hypocrites.

[obamanut2012]

199. Sob stories wtaf

[iemanja]

226. You can't be pro-human and justify the way Netanhayu has chosen to execute this war

by slaughtering civilians and children. Jewish children's lives certainly do have value, but so do those of Muslim children. For some reason, that latter fact is lost to many.

[Nixie]

242. You can't be pro-women and pro gang rapists at the

same time. If they are man enough to round up women for a gang rape, they can be man enough to surrender. For the sake of their people, of course.

It's amazing that barbaric terrorists are excused for their attacks on another country and their abuse of their own citizens.

[iemanja]

265. What makes you think I'm pro-rapist

Why is the reflexive response to criticism of war crimes by Israel to assume the other person condones Hamas? Can you not hold it in your conscience to condemn rape and killing of children regardless of the perpetrator? BTW, the IDF likewise rapes Palestinian boys, as this article in the Nation discusses. https://www.thenation.com/article/society/gaza-sexual-violence-men-boys-israel/
Both are horrific, and neither should be tolerated. Unlike you, I don't give one side a pass.

[Nixie]

267. But Israel

How predictable.

And of course the obligatory self-proclamation of your superior morals.

[iemanja]

268. While you still can't condemn the murder of children

or rape. Yours speak for themselves.

[Nixie]

269. Now the predictable mind reading.

[AloeVera]

142. Demonization as moral inferiors etc is used against the Palestinian people too.

And of course, any and all of their supporters.

Like beauty, perhaps evil is also in the eye of the beholder. Nah, not really.

I do not believe that the potential but unlikely to materialize future threat to a well-armed and funded people should ever justify the present annihilation of another people who have no such priviledges. Nay, who are actually under the occupation boot of the priviledged claiming the potential future threat.

To believe otherwise is imo anti-humanist, elitist, supremacist and truly evil.

There has to be another way forward for both peoples that is not nearly so evil.

[jcmaine72]

161. Voices dismissing those who lament the bombing of children...

...as "sob stories" should be ignored.

[gulliver]

172. The term "sob stories" is my choice of terms for tragic stories as told in service of immorality

I've tried to be very clear. Someone who uses a tragedy to urge action that causes vastly more tragedy is, at best, in moral error. At worst, they are lost in cruel thinking and resentment. Both of those categories of voices should be ignored, and the latter category even fought. It is from those voices that we hear tragic stories used, rather nauseatingly, as "sob stories."

[David__77]

178. "Sob stories", as a statement, really conveys a certain view of things.

[iemanja]

229. It conveys a view of the victims as unworthy of compassion

and less than human.

[Goddessartist]

194. Yep.

And believe them when they show us who they are.

[uponit7771]

239. +1, people are losing their sense of humanity in seeking revenge.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

203. Repulsive.

You should be ashamed.

[marble falls]

228. It's hard to stop once you get rolling.