Reading about the death of Ben Bakers family members in Haiti in an OP here.

[Srkdqltr]

I have to say i'm appalled at the attitudes and just awful reactions. For the last year or so some posters have become so bitter and nasty that they could not be consoling to people who lost family.
It became a tirade about religion and "they should not have been there" .
I don't know enough words to say how sad and angry I am at the attitude.
I'm sure no one cares what I think and I'll be reported but that's just what I think.

[Think. Again.]

1. Perhaps we should post....

"My thoughts and prayers are with the family" instead?

[Mister Ed]

66. No, it's probably best that people reveal themselves, painful though it may be to see.

We live in the age of the Great Unmasking. It's been painful for me in recent years to see beloved relatives peel off their mask of decency, don a MAGA cap, and cheer for cruelty and hatred.

In this past year, it's been likewise painful to see DU posters whom I've admired for years reveal themselves as bloodthirsty ghouls willing to overlook or downplay any atrocity committed in the Middle East, as long as it's committed by the side they favor.

The thread referenced in the OP was just a continuation of that long unmasking. It's painful to see the callous cruelty that lies beneath the veneer, but it's always better to know the hard truth.

[orange jar]

69. They camouflage themselves as doves

until the victims are people they don't like, then they show their talons.

[H2O Man]

88. Well said.

One of Rubin's favorite Mark Twain sayings was that bitterness contaminates that which contains it. We won't out-bitter the maga cult. We won't out-hate them. It is not where we want to go, what we want to do, or who we want to become. But we are witness to its growth here daily.

[OneGrassRoot]

114. The Great Unmasking

That’s brilliant and how I shall refer to the time starting in 2015. It’s everywhere. Whenever I feel I have found a sanctuary (not “comfortable” but safe from attack) with like-minded souls, there are inevitable cycles during which disheartening unmasking manifests. DU has always had a cynical, nihilistic contingent but cruelty has become much more commonplace. 😥

[Ocelot II]

2. I agree. I thought some of those comments were mean and thoughtless

and thoroughly inappropriate, no matter what one might think of missionaries or religion in general. The family members were brutally murdered, and they were only 21 and 23. Saying "they shouldn't have been there" is classic blame-the-victim thinking; if the victim was doing something you don't approve of, blaming them for their fate is a pretty cold-hearted way of expressing your disapproval of them or what they were doing. It's not much different, conceptually, from blaming other kinds of crime victims (rape victims, for example) who "shouldn't" have been doing a certain thing or "shouldn't have gone to" the place where they were victimized. At least have a little compassion for this young couple's family, FFS.

[Silent Type]

3. +1. I think lots of folks have become a little meaner, but I also get roughly half

of our population (GOPers) probably make us less tolerant because of their hatefulness. I hope we do better once trump is out of the way.

[ShazzieB]

17. This may not be a popular sentiment, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Now that meanness has become so much a part of the general zeitgeist (thanks to MAGA), we Dems need to guard against letting it rub off on us.

I hink we're doing all right on the whole, but we could do even better. It's hard, after so many years of having MAGA-hate directed at us, but we need to make the effort not to let them drag us down to their disgusting level. That is all.

[marble falls]

79. Popular or not, it is the truth. We allowed ourselves to become meaner.

[brooklynite]

4. Question: did you express condolences to the family...

...of the Christian missionary who violated an Indian Government ban and went to an Island with an isolated aboriginal tribe to bring them the "good news"?

[Srkdqltr]

8. I remember that. I don't know if I responded to the post but I did not think he deserved to die and was sorry for him

and his people.

[brooklynite]

9. Not a question of "deserving" to die....

It's one of making life risking choices for no good purpose. In the case of Haiti, there's no purpose sending Christian missionaries without professional skills into an unstable failed State, unless the presumption is that Catholics aren't "real Christians".

[Srkdqltr]

10. You made my point.

[obamanut2012]

104. You just made their point

[Conjuay]

53. As they say,

"It's in God's hands."

[SoFlaBro]

27. I think I remember some of that. Is that the one where they ate the Christian?

[Voltaire2]

34. They didn't eat him. They warned him and then shot him

with arrows and killed him. It was his second attempt to violate their lands and disregard their rules.

[SocialDemocrat61]

40. Whataboutism

[Torchlight]

5. There are a thousand different little things we do everyday that illustrate the content of our character.

A thousands different little tells that an engagement is sincere and made in good faith or just mean-spirited and belittling. Those are the little nudges, to one side or the other, that kinda describe it to me as worth the time or just to foreget it and walk off silently.

[TexasDem69]

6. This is spot on

The general lack of decency is appalling. I’m embarrassed that folks like that claim fo be Democrats

[mcar]

7. I agree. Some of those comments were shameful and heartless

[TomDaisy]

11. plenty of horrible things have been said about peaceful student protesters

and innocent civilans in Gaza

[Srkdqltr]

14. They are all victims . saying "im sorry for your loss" to one dosnt mean you are not sorry for another.

[BannonsLiver]

24. Lame whataboutism.

[WarGamer]

12. The appearance of Donald Trump on the political "scene" has caused MANY people... to change

What's that old expression??

"Don't let your own hatred turn you into what you once railed against"?

Wish I could remember the actual quote.

All of a sudden nowadays... a lot of people think authoritarianism is hunky dory if a GOP'er is at the receiving end.

A LOT of OUR PEOPLE stand in opposition to the ACLU, ffs...

[LeftInTX]

16. It was like that around here before Trump. Many on DU hate Christians, especially missionaries.

Anytime something happens to a clergy a religious person there is always a predictable response.

[wnylib]

35. I don't think that it's Trump's influence that brings out the hate on this topic,

although he has generally been normalizing hatred and cruel language.

There are some people whose dislike of religion is just as zealous as religious prosyletizers who promote region to others. They are the equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses from the atheist side. Just like some religious people can't resist putting God or a Bible quote into every topic, there are anti religious people who can't resist putting their hatred of religion into every topic.

I am critical of religion forcing itself on people. I am strongly opposed to Christian nationalism trying to replace secular government with a theocracy. But I am also opposed to the other extreme of trying to impose anti religion on everyone.

I personally don't like missions that exist for the purpose of converting people to a particular faith. But I also know that there are some religious people who are willing to give aid to people in need because it is the right, caring thing to do according to their beliefs, without proselytizing.

But, I've learned that it is just as pointless to try to discuss anything with a belligerent anti-religionist as it is to discuss politics with a MAGA.

I often wonder how they reconcile their hatred of religion and religious people with support for Democratic politicians who practice a religious faith, like Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, Raphael Warnock, Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, Jimmy Carter, etc. How do they reconcile their hatred and contempt for religious leaders with their support for civil rights and the movement led by the Baptist minister, MLK? If they are Democrats, I am guessing that they do support those people.

How do they reconcile their claimed commitment to rationalism with irrational hatred and glee over the deaths of people they don't know, based only on knowing that the deceased were religious believers trying to aid people in a horrifically chaotic environment?

[brooklynite]

81. Question: has an atheist ever come to your door...

…to ask you consider not believing in god?

[MorbidButterflyTat]

101. This is disengenuous.

There has not been any "glee" or "hate."

The relentless hyperbolic misrepresentation of people voicing legitimate concerns of potentially coercive elements of religious missionaries practicing in desperate countries, with desperate people in desperate situations, is what is ugly.

Maybe Muslim or Amish or Satanic missionaries should insinuate themselves into American neighborhoods, a quid pro quo of altruistic saviors who require nothing in return except compliance to their beliefs and their god(s).

The deliberate obtuseness and silly scolding of adults with different opinions does nothing but feed the self righteous egos of the scolders, IMO.

[Wingus Dingus]

13. I don't understand being unable to set down political, religious, cultural issues for even a moment

to express sadness for a couple who were slaughtered trying to help suffering people. Who else has the guts to go to Haiti and work on the ground there? I sure don't. RIP to Baker's family members.

[Lulu KC]

15. Haiti is complicated

Simplifying it shows ignorance, and a lack of compassion for not only the missionaries but also the Haitians who live with these nightmares every day is striking.

[Srkdqltr]

72. You are probably right, but, the point of my post was that a simple nice word of condolence would be sufficient

Not an airing of grevences or the history of the country or why one can't stand religions or that the victims were at fault. Just a simple "I'm sorry for your loss" or just don't say anything 😔

[Lulu KC]

90. Agreed

I just went on to notice even more that I found odd.

[LeftInTX]

91. I think the post we're discussing illustrates the horrors of what is going on in Haiti right now.

I have no personal connection to the couple that was murdered, nor do I have an opinion about their work in in Haiti. However, posting and circulating the story reminds Americans of the danger in Haiti right now.

It should be a lesson in: "If it happened to them, it could happen to me"

The media will get the story out because they want Americans to know what is going on.

I don't have enough knowledge of Haiti to know the politics of missions there, but I assume they fill a void and are well tolerated.

I tend to think their murder was a random act of violence.

Unfortunately, the post ended up becoming a referendum on why they were there.

[ShazzieB]

18. I didntsee that op or the replies, so I dont know any of the details.

But I'm really sorry to hear about the cold, unforgiving attitudes of some people here.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

19. "...they could not be consoling to people who lost family."

Are the family members of the missionaries on DU?

People have opinions that may not coincide with yours. No need to call out DUers who disagree, and are just as entitled to their opinions as you are to yours.

[Warpy]

20. Losing a child is horrnedous and losing one to violence must make it all worse

especially when the violence was so senseless.

I can't blame starry eyed kids who wanted to make the world a better place.

I do have some serious questions to ask the organization that thought it was a good idea to send them there now.

Here is what the State Department has to day about that: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/haiti-travel-advisory.html

[betsuni]

23. The young man's parents founded the schools and churches 20 years ago, maybe

they didn't think they'd be seen as outsiders or be in danger.

[Warpy]

108. Someone at the top of that organization displayed very bad judgment

and that's where the questions need to be directed.

When the State Department issues a "do not travel," you can expect the country to be in total chaos with nothing even approaching a civil society. It means stay out, period, until and unless a viable government starts to emerge.

This should never have happened. There's a time when people need to back off and then consider returning to help pick up the pieces when the situation stabilizes.

[Ex Lurker]

21. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about religion

But many if not most missionaries are doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers, etc. Religious, yes, but in many cases they provide services that no one else is providing., If you're against missionaries, you should be against the Peace Corps because often there's not much difference in what they're doing.

[betsuni]

26. Agree. The practical work is the important thing.

A close friend of my parents did missionary work after retirement (he'd been in politics for a while), he reminded me a great deal of Jimmy Carter.

[Kaleva]

22. There are people here I wouldn't associate with in real life.

This is a discussion board so it's expected that members express, from time to time, opinions that rile others. That's a function of a discussion board and is quite fine as long as the rules are followed.

[BannonsLiver]

25. Haiti is a failed state

Which is not the fault of the US, despite efforts by some here to blame the “evil west”.

Sadly it’s probably not going to get any better which is why I think efforts like those the missionaries were involved with are a total waste of time. That said, the gleeful I told you so’s and grave dancing in that thread were disgusting. What’s also funny is these people somehow think they’re different than the other side.

[niyad]

31. Perhaps you could look up the history of Haiti's Independence Debt

before you casually dismiss it as a "failed state", without reference to some of the reasons why.

[BannonsLiver]

59. I have and don't share your assessment

Haiti is a failed state. Have a great day. 😉

[niyad]

82. So you choose to ignore basic facts. Understood. May you have the day

you deserve.

[hardluck]

28. These threads tend to bring out the casually cruel

Byproduct of being anonymous which brings out a person’s true character.

[RockRaven]

29. I'm sure that there was some nasty stuff in whatever thread you are

referring to, which I haven't read myself. And that is regrettable.

But milquetoast platitudes are not a required performance when people die doing astonishingly reckless stuff.

Going to Haiti, as a god-botherer or not, nowadays is astoundingly reckless.

And if people do astonishingly reckless stuff because of religion by their own words, then the religious stuff is why they were in the position to be murdered. Of course being murdered isn't the fault of the victims, but that fact doesn't necessarily mean being in that position was wise or reasonable.

They shouldn't have been there, as far as I can see. There's no tirade about it. It is a shame that they were there. They lost the one and only life they would ever have.

[LeftInTX]

32. I think they were living there. They were teachers etc.

If it was me, I would have moved back home.
OTOH, awful things happen to people who aren't knowingly in harm's way or when people are performing positive progressive deeds. Or heck, what happens when someone is driving to vote and gets in a car wreck?

But what if they going to vote for Trump and get in a car wreck? (I know it would get cheered here!)

Both are pretty much neutral activities, but could be interpreted as not being neutral by whomever wants to interpret the activities.

Eight UN vaccine workers were murdered by the Taliban in 2022. The Taliban is known to murder vaccine workers and the UN workers were there. (This stems from when "vaccine workers" spied on Osama bin Laden and led Seal Team Six to his location)

Also four friends drove to Mexico in March 2023. Two were murdered. It seemed like they engaged in some questionable activities, but no one here started bashing them. As a matter of fact, people were defending them when an article pointed to some questionable activity.

[wnylib]

41. There are many situations in life that would fit your description

of being foolish in dangerous situations.

I am thinking of Doctors Without Borders, Chef Andres, charities bringing aid to Gaza, resistance fighters in WWII, the people who sheltered Anne Frank's family in Nazi occupied Amsterdam, the Danes who shipped Jews to Sweden when Nazis tried to round them up, the Freedom Riders on Greyhound buses in the US, 16 year old Stephania Podgorska and her 7 year old sister who, alone without parents, sheltered 22 Jews for 2 years in Nazi occupied Poland. (Stefania was an idealistic, devout Roman Catholic.)

People do good things in dangerous situations. They save lives. Sometimes they lose their own lives. They try to make the world a better place. They sometimes succeed and sometimes fail. Sometimes they die in the process but others take their place.

I met a local woman who, in her 60s, made several trips into and out of Ukraine with her son when the Russian invasion began. They took supplies into Ukraine and refugees out to Poland, especially women with children and the elderly and sick. She had past experience in Ukraine as a Peace Corp volunteer. She felt compelled to help. She set up networks with individual volunteers and with religious groups to continue the flow of aid and donations. She helped establish a shelter for refugee women and children in Poland. She told me that her faith was part of her commitment to what she did. Her church did not send her, but when they learned what she was doing, they supported her with donations.

People try to do good things in dangerous situations.

[Ocelot II]

85. Trying to do good things in dangerous situations is the very definition of courage.

We don't bash Doctors Without Borders or Chef Andres or the Freedom Riders or the many other people who were and are brave enough to knowingly expose themselves to danger in order to help people. Are they foolish? What's the difference between the young couple in Haiti and the others? If someone's motivation has a religious basis or inspiration does that make their bravery just stupid? I don't think so.

[wnylib]

87. Thank you. I do not think that they are foolish, either.

My use of the word "foolish" was in response to a post that criticized the young people for going to Haiti.

Whatever the source of inspiration, I agree that people who go into dangerous situations to help others are courageous. First responders at both human made and natural disasters also fit into that group.

[NoRethugFriends]

103. Conflating missionaries with Chef Andre is disingenuous to the extreme.

Missionaries have done huge damage in way too many places.

[Cassandra325]

30. There is an epidemic of hate these days ...

not only racial hatred but also hatred of people of various religious (and non-religious) beliefs. Hatred of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Palestinians, Atheists, etc.)
Not only the far right but also the far left is expressing this kind of hate and bigotry. Maybe the left is doing this as a reaction to Trump and far-right extremism.

What Martin Luther King Jr. wrote about hatred:
"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction."

My condolences and prayers to the families of the victims, and to the people of Haiti. I hope they can find a way out of the darkness and violence.

[Kid Berwyn]

43. Thank you for putting it in words!

And a hearty welcome to DU, Cassandra325!

[Srkdqltr]

115. Very true. I posted because instead of saying sorry for your loss people were spewing hate for everything.

All that was necessary was "sorry for ....." And your favorite condolences.

[betsuni]

33. I agree. 23 and 21 years old.

They're not responsible for the history of Western civilization or whatever. Jimmy Carter is a born again evangelical Christian.

[Voltaire2]

36. Missionary history is exactly what they were part of.

[betsuni]

38. What exactly was the missionary position they were a part of?

[Voltaire2]

42. Position? Lol.

I’ll assume you meant history. The point is that there is no legitimate way to separate these missionaries from the very long and very dubious history of christian missionaries, which was what was being attempted in the post I replied to.

[betsuni]

44. You responded to my post. What was I attempting? What dubious history of missionaries?

Most of the time the people they were trying to convert used missionaries and didn't take all the mumbo jumbo seriously. Northern Europeans were bugged by Christians for a long time until they actually gave up pagan beliefs. What's the big problem?

[Voltaire2]

47. Seriously?

I’m sorry but if you don’t even understand the role of christian missionaries in the European conquest and colonization of vast areas of the world from the 1500s onwards then we can’t have a reasonable discussion. We have no common ground.

[betsuni]

49. ...

Christians bad because West, Non-Western religious fundamentalists good.

[mcar]

94. This is exactly what I see from some on DU and elsewhere

Brutal terrorists attack, rape, murder, torture in the name of their faith? They're "freedom fighters," and akin to Nelson Mandela.

Young Christian missionaries brutally murdered? Eh, they had it coming to them because their religion sucks and they're imperialists.

Make it make sense.

[Voltaire2]

112. what the fork?

Last edited Sun May 26, 2024, 12:45 PM - Edit history (1)

I despise all religious zealotry. But sure, build a giant strawman and set that shit on fire.

[BannonsLiver]

64. We get your point I think

They deserved to die because of some conquistadors from the 16th century. 🙄

[orange jar]

70. Missionaries doing evil shit in the 1500s

does not justify killing someone in the present unless it is self defense. The viewpoint that all societies can be defined as oppressors vs the oppressed is deeply flawed and removes the realities and complexities of human behavior.

[Voltaire2]

89. Never said it did. Also missionaries were shitty agents

of colonialism right up until the present day.

[LeftInTX]

93. Haiti is 96% Christian, they weren't there to convert 4% of the population. 15% of Christians in Haiti are protestant.

Missions are there to fill voids in infrastructure.
Were they there to convert adherents of a colonial religion (Catholicism) to adherents of another colonial religion?

[Voltaire2]

99. Missionaries are 'there' to convert people to

their particular religion. Haitians are nominally christian, nominally Catholic, but google a little bit more, Haiti developed its own unique syncretic belief system that incorporates African indigenous religions with Catholicism. That is absolutely what this mission was out to subvert.

[PCIntern]

37. I tend to agree with you...

I would however state for the record that this GOP cheered and joked about the whacking in the head by a hammer of the husband of the Democratic Speaker of the House, so it is almost reflexive unfortunately to return the favor in kind. I try not to do these things, but there’s little question that I “hate” lots more than I used to.

[Think. Again.]

39. On the topic of THIS post...

...I believe that hand-picking some random post in an attempt to draw attention to and amplify division among DUers when we are heading into a very important election might not be as well-intentioned as it might seem.

[Bucky]

45. It's a devious plot to divide us!

The mods need to shut down Vladimir's account

[Think. Again.]

48. As longtime DUers will tell you...

...there have always been rightwingers among us who will use any opportunity, or create any opportunity, to disrupt our solidarity and strength coming into elections.

My suggestion is for us to state our personal opinions clearly and strongly, engage in meaningful discussions, but to avoid, and even challenge, any indications of gaslighting, manipulation, or any other divisive instigations we come across.

[Sympthsical]

46. I'll just note the interesting juxtaposition

Christians bringing aid - kind of deserved it. Other religious fundamentalists denying aid to their own people - eh, it's fine. Pay no mind.

If this hasn't extremely highlighted to an absurd degree that people act out of tribalism rather than any high-minded principle, welp, there ya go.

I have a cousin in Africa doing missionary work. Yes, he's religious. No, I don't particularly appreciate the texts of long Bible passages I get from him sometimes. But he's a kind person. Found religion after his step-father killed his mother. He spends his time building homes, digging wells, that sort of thing. Just up and decided in his 30s to go help people.

But I guess he wouldn't meet the approval of *checks* people who run their mouths on social media all day.

I'm sure he'd be devastated if I told him. "The pajama'd have things to say as you . . . uh, help people."

I don't know if his self-image could handle it. Let's be ironic and pray for him that he endures the sharpness of eternal electronic judgment from on high.

[Think. Again.]

50. There is a distinction between...

...those bringing aid for sole purpose of aiding others, and those using the offer of aid to accomplish some other agenda.

[Sympthsical]

56. I hear you. Do you hear you?

This has a flavor of "Tell me you don't volunteer without telling me." As someone who does, lemme tell ya. There are an awful lot of religious folks involved in helping the poor in America. I run into them when I volunteer. They're generally nice people who want to help others.

There's this Latino family I came to know while volunteering dropping off food packages a friend of mine puts together. They load up a big van and make the rounds to homeless shelters in the area every weekend bringing coffee, donuts, and other food care packages to people. Sometimes they bring blankets and things. For some of the people in the shelters, it is the highlight of their week. There's lines down the sidewalk. Mothers in women's shelters frequently have their kids with them.

So, they hand out the coffee, donuts, and breakfast. And then they do a little praying/preaching. Nothing crazy. They do it first in English, then in Spanish.

They're the nicest people. Nice family. But hey, I'll let them know you don't like their agenda.

And after I do that, can I pencil you in to bring blessedly agendaless mornings every weekend down at these shelters or nah?

[betsuni]

57. +1

[Think. Again.]

58. Nah, I have a list of non-religous organizations...

...I already regularly give my time to that have clear, unadulterated "common good" missions, in addition to the non-profit work I have done for a living.

[Sympthsical]

60. Then you do your bit and leave them to do theirs

I'm an atheist/agnostic/irreligious sort. I have no room for religion in my personal life.

But I don't piss on others who actually help.

It's a thought.

[Think. Again.]

61. No, I will not leave people to...

...take advantage of other people's trauma in an attempt to further their own agenda which I believe to damaging.

But that's just a quirk of mine.

[Sympthsical]

63. This is very funny

In the context of recent events. Very, very funny.

Anyway. Last word.

[Think. Again.]

75. Cryptic.

[yardwork]

96. Oh, interesting! What are you planning to do to missionaries?

Suddenly I'm very interested. What are your plans to prevent people from doing mission work?

[Think. Again.]

106. You are seeing it in action...

I speak out against corruption and socially-negative behaviour at most opportunities that I get.

[BuddhaGirl]

74. "But I don't piss on others who actually help"

Thank you. It's appalling to see such posts like the ones you've been replying too.

Hungry and destitute people don't care where their food comes from. Goddess forbid it comes with a few prayers.

Oh noes!!

[Think. Again.]

78. I don't see how you could consider my posts "appalling"...

...but maybe there's a good reason that I don't.

[BuddhaGirl]

92. It's ok

In general I find a lack of empathy appalling.

YMMV

[betsuni]

80. Exactly.

[Sympthsical]

83. I'll just say

When you're down in the trenches, grateful for any help at all, you don't spend a whole lot of time turning up your nose, sniffing about motives, and generally boxing in help offered with personal political preferences.

At least, people who do the work know this.

People on the internet may not.

[Think. Again.]

98. Yes, exactly why people in traumatic situations are so vulnerable...

....religious organizations have known this, and taken advantage of those people to "spread the word", for centuries.

It really is beyond cruel.

[orange jar]

102. Did you think that Jimmy Carter was trying to

take advantage of vulnerable people, too? Yes, it is true that many missionaries try to convert people in struggling countries out of their own bigoted beliefs, but there are a lot of others that genuinely try to help them because they believe it's the right thing to do.

It's the same thing as churches that host charity events for poor and disadvantaged people. Do plenty of churches suck? Yes. But do others provide genuine care and resources? Also yes.

[Think. Again.]

105. Good point, not EVERYBODY can be put in the same boat...

...but the damage done by the vast majority of religious organizations, and by the concept of "organized religion" itself, does call for extreme caution when dealing with any of them.

[Voltaire2]

110. Habitat for humanity is a christian organization

but it’s focus is on providing homes, not on conversion to their religion. It is an exception.

[Think. Again.]

111. Yes, I shop a lot at their retail stores.

[yardwork]

95. Does this careful avoidance of religious organizations extend to other religions?

Or is it just Christian groups you avoid? I'm not judging. Just curious.

[Think. Again.]

100. All religious, or otherwise nefarious organizations...

...although I did help help to do low-key nighttime safety surveillance of a local synagogue down the block from me during threats from the rightwing a couple of years ago.

[betsuni]

52. Christians like Jimmy Carter helping people, bad. Non-Western religious fundamentalists not helping people, good.

Last edited Sat May 25, 2024, 09:01 AM - Edit history (1)

So true.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. I see your point

Well written. Well.done.

[BannonsLiver]

62. Anti west sentiment is all the rage with the supposed cool kids.

[betsuni]

68. I often think of the three British Muslim teenagers who went to Syria to be ISIS brides.

Propaganda of handsome "freedom fighters," dynamic, exciting, romantic, the cleansing revolution against the corrupt West. Then reality. Pregnant all the time, in the kitchen, can't go anywhere, do what you're told or else.

One missing, one dead, the other in a refugee camp (all three babies and husband dead), begging to be allowed back in the UK.

[BannonsLiver]

76. Yes

It’s similar to LGBTQ people who see Hamas as some kind of bulwark against the west and Israel. Meanwhile, Hamas would toss them off a fucking rooftop if given the chance.

[orange jar]

71. It is inticing

It is absolutely true that many countries that people see as part of "the West" have shameful histories. Torment, bloodshed, war, and crimes against humanity should be studied so that we can best avoid these behaviors today. No question.

Nevertheless, some people take that knowledge of history way too far and decide that any society/region/culture that is separate from "the West" or, better yet, opposed to it, is the truest and righteous perception. Even if it leads to murder and, ironically, more atrocities.

[BannonsLiver]

77. Oh I agree

The problem comes when people start borrowing trouble from the past and start believing that’s all that matters. It’s extremely regressive and dumb. We have enough problems in the present.

[yardwork]

97. Could not agree more. It's the current fad.

[Think. Again.]

107. That's an odd point of view...

...I hope you reconsider it.

[marble falls]

51. I am, too. They died trying to do good. I am shocked by how mean sprited we can be. Thankyou for posting.

[malaise]

54. I've been appalled by comments

about 30,000 dead Palestinians in their homeland.

That is all.

[Mister Ed]

65. I have been, too. Deeply appalled.

My dismay at the deflection and whataboutism that I see from some posters is scarcely anything in comparison.

[Danmel]

67. 40 years ago, a co-workers friend died of AIDS

She told me, years later, that she would always remember me because I was the only one who didn't ask her how her sister was infected.
I didn't ask because it was none of my business and what difference did it make?
A young woman was dead, her family and friends were grieving and on top of it, they had to deal with judgmental people.
We should be better than this.
Sympathy to the Baker family.

[Bettie]

73. I don't think I commented on that

but I did wonder why the organization they are with sent them there. It doesn't seem like a wise move to send young, inexperienced people to a place that is currently in chaos.

[niyad]

84. The young man's parents founded Missions on Haiti some 20+ years ago,

and he had soent a good deal of time there, so not completely inexperienced.

[happybird]

86. I feel both ways

Sorry for their families and also for the children they worked with.

On the other hand, I am creeped out by the Mission statement referring to Haiti and it's children as "fields ripe for harvest."

https://www.missionsinhaiti.com/about_us

[Skittles]

109. agreed

these deaths are very tragic indeed

[Voltaire2]

113. Religion is a plague on human consciousness.

All the zealots of all religions are just making the world a worse place. It is way past time to stop putting these people on pedestals, to stop taking their noxious bullshit seriously, and to stop attacking anyone who doesn't play along.