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(3,102 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Instead of people taking karate or other self-defense classes, they could just ask muggers and other criminals to enroll in "Don't Attack" classes, I guess?
demmiblue
(36,841 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)I don't think rapists rape because they're ignorant of that point.
Hekate
(90,658 posts)Some undergrads make a game of getting girls drunk. Some think it's not rape if she doesn't get hurt, even if she's passed out drunk.
I could go on. But all you have to do is look at the content of "How to avoid rape" classes and realize where the ignorance and violence lie.
So yes, mandatory classes for young men entering college might include information on what counts as rape, and that No means No.
Our local university does freshman classes on alcohol (because alcohol poisoning can kill, and because we lose a couple of kids every year when they fall off the cliff next to campus while partying). I'm pretty sure they include the rape thing, too. I hope the kids (both genders) are listening.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)someone they've just gotten drunk? Considering the reason they get the girl drunk is so that they can have sex with her?
I think they know it's wrong. They just do it anyway. Because they want to, like the sense of power it gives them, because they despise women, whatever.
Most people who take advantage of others do it while knowing it's wrong, imo. There are gray areas, yes. But mostly, people knowingly do wrong.
LisaLynne
(14,554 posts)as someone who works closely with students at the university level, there are young men, many of them, actually, who don't know "no means no". Especially, in the cases of aquaintance rape. You are right that there are many out there who know it's wrong and do it anyway, for a myriad of reasons, but there are those who do need such education, from people they respect. I think lately things have maybe been getting a little better, just with the rise in awareness, but honestly, it is still a huge problem.
The point of this message is that why is the responsibility always placed on women? "Don't wear that." "Don't stay out late." "Don't go anywhere alone." Those things don't seem like a big deal until you've really had to live that way. And ultimately, it does push this underlying idea that somehow it's the woman's fault, that women need to be better at controlling their own and others behavior and if they did, there would be no more rape instead of focusing on changing the underlying attitudes that men are socialized with that foster rape.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)about the sex. boys, just being boys.
i think absolutely that we condition our boys to not get it, or see the wrong of it.
yale.... chanting thru the pod, no means yes.
question everything
(47,473 posts)I think that boys, starting at elementary school, should be taught that girls and women should never be used as a punching bag, or worse, when they say no. No to relationship, to marriage, to dating.
Rape is only a part of our society. There are too many instances when men beat or murder and even kill the children because the woman said No.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)Dressed in sexual clothing. It is the act of taking something from another by force or coercion. Something that the rapist feels entitled to take. Something that maybe the rapist has been conditioned to believe they are entitled to, regardless of the wishes of the raped.
That's violence. Nothing sexy about it. Sex is just the tool one uses to take what they think they're allowed to have.
question everything
(47,473 posts)but why limit violence to rape only? Rape often happens to strangers, to someone just jogging in the park. And the criminal may never be found.
But we cannot ignore non-rape violence by men who cannot accept not being part of a woman's life and murder her, or beat her because she is "his." How dare she tell him to go away, that she no longer wants to be "his?" And too often family members of these women, new boyfriends get murdered, too.
Yes, I do include O.J. Simpson in this category.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)My point was not to trivialize the other kinds of violence that are embedded in our tropes and culture. Absolutely not.
I was just correcting the common misconception that rape is about sex, which it clearly isn't. It's about power and control. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
dark forest
(110 posts)where "power and control" and "sex" are mutually exclusive at all.
For a lot of men, being in a sense of control is very arousing. Other wise, why is there so much truly brutal porn out there?
question everything
(47,473 posts)who killed the mother of his child and then himself.
Why? If he has problems with her - I did not bother to read the details - why kill her?
But this is the problem with too many men. They are frustrated, humiliated, depressed - whatever - so they take it on the women in their lives and, too often, on the families of these women.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)kicking and punching. the teachers tend to tell the boys that it is not a big deal, or punish the boys if they protect themselves. HUGE problem when boys were in elementary schools. an imbalance of power at that age. we are teaching boys to NEVER hit a girl. and not vice versa. we need to address that as a culture.
basically telling little boys to man up
question everything
(47,473 posts)by other men and boys, by girls and women.
But most of the cases it is the man who cannot take a no for an answer. Testosterone may play a role here.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)do I bother reading these threads filled w/ people who *#^@#&@()_)@#&&$%@(@( &^#!#$%^&*()_)(*&^%$#@!
snip
dark forest
(110 posts)I don't think that it is necessarily that people think that the woman is to blame for getting raped in these cases. It is that the woman is the person that is going to have to live with the consequences of being raped.
Given due process, and all, the rapist may face only minimal, or no, consequences.
So, yes, perhaps young men should receive instruction in learning not to rape. Maybe it will do some good with most, or at least some of them. But not all.
I think women should also receive instruction in how to defend themselves, what resources are available if they can't, and what situations pose the greatest danger of them being raped, so that they can avoid them, if they so choose.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Deep13
(39,154 posts)A lot of people think there is a gray area where the woman is drunk or otherwise badgered into compliance. Almost everyone knows rape is wrong, but not everyone knows that what he is doing actually constitutes rape. An awful lot of defendants actually thought that the woman would melt in their arms once he got things started. Also, men need to create a culture where they will not tolerate rape or the company of a rapist. Look at that Kobe basketball guy. Couldn't the NBA find a player who was not under a cloud of rape allegations? Are people who want to play ball for a living rare? What message does it send to both young women and young men that such behavior is ignored if a guy can play a kids' game?
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)people who use alcohol drugs to weaken other people's will to get something over on them know it's wrong. i think women who get men to do things for them by using the implied promise of relationship a/o sex know it's wrong too.
they just want what they want & are willing to take advantage of others to get it.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)...is modified to make the situation okay. Everyone is innocent in his own mind.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)you've never claimed you were innocent while knowing you were guilty -- or at least, half-guilty? i have.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)One first has to have a clear understanding that the action in question is wrong. And their are a lot of people who really are never wrong in their own eyes. "She shouldn't be here" "...dressed like that" "...leading me on" "she knew what this was about" "I needed this" "I'll never see her again" "she enjoyed it" "should have put up more of a fight" etc, etc.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Societal Attitudes Supporting Rape
- A survey of 6,159 college students enrolled at 32 institutions in the U.S. found the following: (ref 4)
· 54% of the women surveyed had been the victims of some form of sexual abuse; more than one in four college-aged women had been the victim of rape or attempted rape;
· 57% of the assaults occurred on dates;
· 73% of the assailants and 55% of the victims had used alcohol or other drugs prior to the assault;
· 25% of the men surveyed admitted some degree of sexually aggressive behavior;
· 42% of the victims told no one.
- In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances. (ref 5)
- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found ref 5)
· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;
· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.
- In a survey of male college students:
· 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).
· One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)
- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)
· 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.
· 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.
- Women with a history of rape or attempted rape during adolescence were almost twice as likely to experience a sexual assault during college, and were three times as likely to be victimized by a husband. (ref 9)
- Sexual assault is reported by 33% to 46% of women who are being physically assaulted by their husbands.(ref 10)
http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)It certainly is eye-opening (and jaw-dropping, as it were) to see these statistics.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)parents discuss these attitudes with kids, of both genders.
discussion and awareness is VERY effective.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)wow.
odds go way way way up for a child if a parent actually does their job from day one. and has tons more influence over the child than peers, when connected, a unit, providing an environment that is safe and secure.
CrispyQ
(36,460 posts)· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;
· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.
The first stat also shows how our society values money - we excuse all kinds of bad behavior for those with money.
These numbers do not represent individual parenting. This is the influence of an entire culture, a rape culture.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)a lot of our children that are not taught what rape and not rape is. society teaches them what their privilege dictates and what womens roles are. if a parent does not jump in, head first, addressing these issues regularly when they come up, why the hell would we expect our kids to be able to do it innately, with all society shows them.
you know, our children are being raised on rape porn, or the normalization of rape as entertainment. just a girls true fantasy. really.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape..."
1 in 12 college males engaged in activities that met the legal definition of rape. That is mind-boggling, scary, and absurdly surprising to me. That's close to 10% of college males either too evil to be in college or too stupid to be in college (or both).
Yeesh!
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)sociopaths, for example, probably don't know that hurting someone is wrong. people with no conscience and no empathy do not feel remorse about hurting others...they feel entitled to hurt others. i put rapists in this category, and that's includes all rapists, including the guys who put drugs in women's drinks.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)and actually i don't think sociopaths are anything but an extreme manifestation of something that lurks in everyone.
morality is often situational; nice upstanding young men in wartime turn into murdering rapists, for example. ordinary people are more willing to behave badly to people they don't believe can retaliate, people they perceive as weaker, stupider, whatever. i've done it myself & am the first to admit it.
people have a shadow side.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)of educating people about rape, as evidenced by the GOP's team rape's slew of ignorant comments.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)and a lot of the time with clear knowledge that they are harming others.
kids don't learn not to rape because someone tells them rape is bad. they learn not to rape by absorbing an entire cultural complex about how to treat people and what the other *is*.
i continue to believe that the majority of teens & adults know rape is wrong. there may be some ambiguity about whether specific cases are "rape," but people learn through experience that being pressured and forced and attacked feels bad. it's wrong; that's why people feel not quite comfortable when they do it, whatever they tell themselves.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)i totally agree.
CrispyQ
(36,460 posts)wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)it's about the culture that enables them- frat boys binge drinking, going to strip clubs, exposing themselves to women on the street... there are many groups of "men" where objectifying and disrespecting women is an acceptable way to have a good time on a Friday night and within that group there may be one or two men who woud actually rape a woman and five or six others who wouldn't but also wouldn't turn in a buddy they saw doing it. We could probably make some progress on the five or six so that they might intervene or drop out of the group or report the rape and support the woman's story.
I've worked with guys who might, on the surface, know that "rape is wrong" but who spend an awful lot of time and mental energy calculting how many drinks they would have to buy a girl before they could sleep with her. There's still quite a bit of borderline rapey behaviour that's far too acceptable in mainstream culture.
LisaLynne
(14,554 posts)That's exactly the point I was trying to make. It's the culture that enables the behavior, so even if on their own, these guys might, if pressed say, "Yeah, rape is wrong" they need to be told "these behaviors are rape."
mythology
(9,527 posts)I don't see how they enable rape and more than clubs where guys strip enable rape. And a quick scan of the available research doesn't support the claim that strip clubs are associated with rape or even any good studies that indicate they are associated with other crime.
If looking at naked people is inherently objectifying, and objectifying inherently contributes to rape, then you have to logically conclude that women who watch porn videos or go to male strip clubs also contribute to rape. That's not a ledge I'd stand on.
Personally I avoid strip clubs because their business model doesn't cater to people disinclined to spending increasing amounts of money. Likewise I avoid casinos.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)I think it's the pack mentality and sense of entitlement that goes along with large groups of young men socially conditioned to feel that binge drinking combined with leering at, groping and otherwise sexual objectifying women equals a great night out. And the fact that this is written off as "boys being boys" instead of "assholes crossing a line who need to be set straight" is the source of the problem.
Getting rid of strip clubs or porn isn't going to get rid of rape, obviously, but making it socially unacceptable to disrespect women can create more positive peer pressure and surveillance which might help protect more women from rape.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)would "Force a woman to have sex with them" if they could get away with it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:06 PM - Edit history (1)
Maybe it's more like they've been told that it is wrong, but they don't really understand and believe that it is wrong, and they rape because they simply want to, and simply hope they don't get caught.
In their minds/consciences, their crime is not the act of raping someone. To them, their only crimes are getting caught, and punished, for raping someone. Later remorse is not due to the harm that they caused to another person, but only because they are personally being harmed because they are being punished for the harm they have caused.
Although I believe that there are flaws in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, it appears to me that his theory is a fairly accurate overview of factors that comprise the developmental process of what is generally known as a "conscience". It may be that rapists are way down on this scale of "self actualization"; like toddlers, (and conservatives ~ sorry, I know I'm being bad, heehee)) they act upon unconsidered impulse rather than consideration based in a conscience based in a healthy developed ethical belief system.
It's possible that one of the reasons that some individuals who remain in the lower, tiers of this scale of self actualization is because they have not examined their thought processes with any serious and objective scrutiny, and subsequently never recognized the negative institutionalized and/or enculturated mores that comprise deeply rooted parts of their belief systems.
Institutionalized, enculturated misogyny, may also play a part in why some rapists rape women. They are told it is wrong to hate women, but many of the underlying misogynistic societal/cultural factors with which they have been imprinted in infancy and adolescence are so strongly rooted in their consciousness that they are unable to even recognize their own perception of women is as a group that is naturally inferior.
--Elizabeth Cady Stanton
It is very possible that, in our society, institutionalized/enculturated misogyny is primarily the product of widespread Judeo-Christan dogma, dogma that is illustrated in the examples below. These just a few examples among a multitude of examples of Judeo-Christian dogma, (and Islamic dogma as well), that perpetrates and promotes the continued institutionalization and enculturation of misogyny and homophobia in many modern societies.
"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)
And on and on and on and on, ad nauseum.
My point, relative to your question, is that maybe we need to adopt a new perspective and approach to understanding and educating all age groups about ethics, misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc. ~ because far too many individuals are apparently not getting the idea that these things they do, and why these things they do, are ethically wrong.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)you seem to be making some distinction between intellectual knowing & gut knowing. will your 'education' turn intellectual knowing into gut knowing, or is it just more intellectualizing?
gut knowing doesn't come from education, i think.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)else to be raped.
I suppose it is possible that some people are born with an intuitive ability to distinguish and understand right from wrong, if that is what "gut knowing" is, without ever have been taught anything about what is right or wrong; but I suspect this is pretty rare, and that basic "gut knowing" is actually a product of enculturation, or socialization ~ the adoption of the behavior patterns of the surrounding culture.
I believe that ethics are primarily learned principles, and that the evolution of conscience in the self begins at a very early age, and is developed through understanding.
Some people grow and evolve to the point where they self-actualize, and don't deliberately cause harm, because their consciousness/conscience understands that it is wrong to deliberately cause harm. In other words, they would not steal a billion dollars from someone even if they knew for sure that they would definitely never get caught or punished for doing so.
In contrast, some people may not deliberately harm simply because of fear that they will be punished for doing so. In other words they would happily steal $10 from someone if they knew they would never be caught or punished.
(I'm sorry, part of the work that I do part time nowadays is applied behavioral analysis and therapy. It is my job to figure out the motivations behind people's behavior, and how to help them have a better quality of life by showing them pathways to more socially appropriate, self rewarding behaviors, most often by using positive reinforcement, so I get a bit wordy sometimes when discussing human behavior. OK, wordy most of the time when I discuss human behavior. OK...all the time.)
Anyway, I believe that educating people from a very early age to help them understand ethics so that as many people as possible can more easily evolve a genuine sense of ethics, develop a self-actualized conscience, and therefore become happy individuals with a sense that they have a satisfying quality of life, is just as important, actually much more important, than teaching them basic math.
In other words, actually helping little Suzy realistically understand and process why something is right or wrong, rather than just telling her that something is right or wrong, or telling her that something is right or wrong simply because "God" says so, and that she is going to go to hell if she does not do what "God" wants her to do.
femrap
(13,418 posts)a real piece of work.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)nolabear
(41,960 posts)Teaching young men that young women are precious human beings who should be treated with the same care and respect that you yourself want and deserve seems to me to be all to the good.
the Bonobo and you're no Bonobo.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Why precisely would the one (don't-orientations) deny the other (self defense classes)?
Another guess?
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)rape. and it has NEVER been, dont rape.
so, how does your post jive with reality
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Rapists know that it is wrong and do it anyway.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)but, not defined as rape. just defined as roles we are suppose to play.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Being a sensitive guy who cares about the feelings of a woman is considered sissy or gay. Some men also don't like it when they can't control women and tell them what to do as seen by how the republican men acted during the campaign calling Sandra Fluke a slut and saying that a woman's body can prevent a pregnancy after rape and if a pregnancy does occur it is God's will and that with modern technology there really is no situation in which the mother's life is in danger anymore. Rape victims are looked upon as gold digging sluts who are only out for money or revenge. Rape victims are still blamed for the way they dress like they some how brought it on themselves or that they deserved it. There is a pervasive disrespect toward women in this country. If we are to do anything about rape and domestic violence it is this cultural attitude toward women that must be addressed.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)why should a boy take it seriously. why should a girl think she was raped or if she is confident in self worth enough to know she was rape, why say anything.
conditioning. none of this is who we are.
all of this is who we create.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)causes this...the will is to DOMINATE. If you checked rapists backgrounds you would probably see abuse of many of them in their past....and some just have the sociopathy on their own through a gene screw up. But, it's DOMINANCE for CRUELTY. To subjugate a person to their will.
ChaoticTrilby
(211 posts)Read all of that. Wow! A lot of people think that, in certain cases, rape is A-OK. Acceptable, even. In other words, "I think..." and "I don't think..." do not work as proper sources. Please, do the research next time. That tends to help.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)the don't rape message was pretty clear to this lad (in freshman orientation).
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)bluerum
(6,109 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)x2 vancouverite
(89 posts)But I hope that's not Lena Dunham in the photo!
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)CrispyQ
(36,460 posts)Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)Deep13
(39,154 posts)Because some women are so easily raped. And what if God wants her to have a rape baby? Will the asprin between the knees protect her from rape?
"everyone knows rape is wrong." Do they really?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)or some such rot
Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)
sally5050 This message was self-deleted by its author.
dorkulon
(5,116 posts)2 long threads about this pic, really for nothing. EVERYONE should be taught that rape is wrong, how to stop it, how to stop it happening to you, to others, and how to stop others from doing it. The end.
Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)
WilliamPitt This message was self-deleted by its author.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)I've been fucking around on this forum for eleven and a half years. For a variety of reasons, that body of experience makes me want to believe the best about DU.
The fact that the discussion between post #4 and post #60 above was necessary is one of those cold-water-in-the-face moments.
When I posted this, I just simply expected any replies to be of the "Yeah," "Truth," or "Right on" variety.
The fact that the picture I posted ACTUALLY NEEDS A FUCKING EXPLANATION AND DEFENSE around here is tremendously revealing, and equally depressing.
To those who have stood this particular watch: OK. I get it. Late perhaps, but damn.
God fucking damn it.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)my daughter is a college freshman. Yes - we definitely need feminism.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)It scares me more than when she first started dating.
aandegoons
(473 posts)We put the onus on the victim and not in improving society. We are stuck circling the drain so to speak.
fix robbers = lock doors not improve lives
fix rape = don't look female or be lucky enough to be born male not teaching respect from day one
fix education = more test and more failure not improving social structures and economic situations
Visit the gungeon and see how little peoples lives are worth to many members of our society. I believe we will never make the right step to reduce the reprehensible like rape until we adjust societies value of the human.
regjoe
(206 posts)You can't teach a rapist "don't rape," but you sure as hell can teach anybody safety to help avoid such situations.
Men are pigs. I have taught my daughter how to avoid and I hope like hell that her college will do the same.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)"You can't" is a surrender.
I hope for better things along the evolutionary chain than a surrender to the assumed inevitable.
But, yeah, for your daughter in the meantime: Eyes, Throat, Sternum, Balls. A good, hard shot to any of those ends the discussion. "Knee" is also an option, if she can kick it inside out.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)Eyes, nose, and mouth.
"You can't" is the reality and false hope does not change that.
Being aware of your surroundings and avoiding certain situations are much more important than the physical options you make light of.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you get the majority of rapes, vast majority, are date rapes. guys, that do not think they are raping. just being, you know, pigs, cause our men and society say this is who they are after all. so really, they have no ownership over their behavior. and their goal is always, sex. nothing less. so whatever means. you know. booze. drugs. no means yes.
all the cutsey things we teach our boys so they can become well round .... pigs.
hey ALL.... i have two teenage boys and know 100% better. not to mention ALL the men in my life that are NOT pigs. total bullshit.
regjoe
(206 posts)Nor does it justify their behavior.
Men, even as teenage boys, know when they are doing wrong. They know it is wrong to feel up a girl who has passed out, and they know it is wrong to use force. Blaming society for their choices does nothing.
No matter how or how much you teach "don't rape," there will always be somebody who will rape. Just as there will always be somebody who will murder and here will always be somebody who is a pedo.
As long as those realities exist, it is our duty to teach everybody how to try and avoid them.
Rather than saying "...instead of don't rape," she should have said "...but not don't rape."
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)around me. i have spent a lifetime of having only boys and men around me. they are not pigs.
that is my point.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)Way to insult 50% of the population. No the majority of men are not pigs. I'm sorry, but your statement was just a sexist as if I had said "women are sluts." Neither are true or acceptable statements.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Men are human beings.
regjoe
(206 posts)From early age, our thoughts center on satisfying our sexual urges. The majority of us may have control, but that does not mean we do not think constantly of satisfying those urges.
I am male and I know how we think. I do not agree with the word "slut." So I disagree with the comparison.
I do agree though, it is a broad brush I have used. Maybe it is because I am a husband or because I have a daughter, I don't know.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)center on sexual urges also. not that different from men.
women think about it like 12 times a day, men 17. women also think about food and sleep less than men. the only thing we can find as a difference is men might be a tad more self focused than women. just a tad.
so, if this is your definition of men being pigs. then i guess you will just have to start calling women pigs, also.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)It is a very broad brush you've used.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)That's a ridiculous comment.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I do think teaching college freshman what rape is would help, because I think a lot don't understand that all potential date rape scenarios are actually rape.
But even then, most men are fine. I'm married to one of the fine men. The vast majority of men I know I have a great deal of trust in.
Also, just teaching someone to avoid being raped really does teach people to question her rather than the rapist afterward. "Didn't you go to the seminar? You aren't supposed to do X." You get into blaming the victim. I think everyone should go to one seminar together, men and women, and they should all be taught definitions of rape, have a discussion of date rape and sexual coercion, and also all talk about safety tips, for rape and for robbery and other crimes that they could run into on campus, as they're away from their parents' homes for the first time.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)and there's only so much room for legible writing on it.
A sign that tried to say "...instead of "This college has a police force and the prosecutor on speed-dial. We take sexual assault VERY SERIOUSLY. If you try it you WILL be prosecuted, you WILL likely go to prison and you WILL NOT finish college. In case you really don't know what sexual assault is (seriously? you don't know?) here is an official to explain it to you. Consent- get it! We're not kidding!" just wouldn't scan as well nor be easily readable. This is a sound byte.
Since most rapes are by friends/acquaintances/people the victim knows or is close to, not strangers in dark alleys, there's no possible way of avoiding the situations completely. It's a discussion that needs to happen with both sexes, not just one.
applegrove
(118,629 posts)that separates from a doormat.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)No one ever had to. It's pretty frigging obvious that if someone doesn't want you to touch them that you don't touch them. I've never had anyone that didn't want to do something sexual with me do it. I'm incapable of sexual performance without a willing partner. I literally can't rape someone. I'm just not wired that way.
The idea that you have to tell someone that it's wrong to rape is bizarre to me and yet there is an apparent need to do so. It's crazy.
get the red out
(13,462 posts)They are unique human beings and deserve to live as fully as any other person. I choose to fight for the rights I've had and more for them.
no_hypocrisy
(46,086 posts)I'd require at least one semester of self defense for women. I mean serious self defense.
My gym teacher in high school gave us a 45 minute talk about where and where to avoid walking, how to avoid attracting attention by what we wore, what to look for when walking alone, etc. Maybe 5 minutes devoted to scream/run away, scrotum-punching, etc. I felt it was useless (1975).
If women are to be empowered, it takes more than pepper spray in the purse. It's being ready to defend oneself, maim if necessary. Conceded there are situations one should be more attentive, but overall, women have the same rights to public spaces as men, without being molested and/or harmed.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)... but no.
It's not that there's anything wrong with self-defense classes. I understand they've done a lot to build up the self-esteem and strength of many people, men and women alike. So I'm not against them.
I just don't like to see it packaged as the solution to rape, because it isn't. Because when his hands are at your throat and you can't breathe, and he's screaming "DON'T YOU EVER SAY NO TO ME" and all you can think about is what you need to do to survive the night, and will you ever see another sunrise, and what will your parents do - it all kind of flies out the window.
The kind of self-defense you're talking about wouldn't have helped me. I was with someone I trusted right up to that moment. And then there was no time to think of fighting back like an all-star. I did what I had to do to survive.
So, self-defense? Sure. But there's something I just hate about this idea that women should just take a self-defense class and that will stop rape. Because it doesn't always. And sometimes it's not even safe to try. And those who don't try, or who do but can't stop it, they shouldn't have the burden of failure placed on their head. And too often, that's where this kind of thinking leads.
no_hypocrisy
(46,086 posts)I had someone break into my locked bedroom who was a drunk guest of my housemates, sleeping over. He was naked and held a chicken carving knife. I screamed for help and nobody came. I wish I had known some self defense to end the situation sooner than it did. (I got him out by alternately talking to him and threatening to call the police. If I was going to die, I wanted him held in prison.)
One is never "prepared" to be raped.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)and all who survived, in which ever way they did.
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)It was terrifying - I was 17 and away from home for the first time in my life.
All of the freshmen girls lived in a locked dorm the first year (affectionately called the Virgin Vault) once we moved on to sophomores and older we were "trusted" to live in unlocked dorms and/or co-ed dorms.
So sad
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)or "look both ways before crossing the street." It's not an implication that the child is at fault if they are abducted or hit by a car, it's just a common sense safety precaution.
The university is entirely correct in teaching students about behavior that could put them in a bad situation.
Why can't people just take a step back and use common sense for a moment? A "don't rape" class? Really? Do you think a sexual predator is going to think twice because he took a class? That's just naive.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)... if you teach them 'don't talk to strangers' while neglecting to add 'and tell mommy and daddy if anyone ever harms you, even if that is an aunt, uncle, grandparent or teacher,' you're kind of missing the boat.
Similarly, there's nothing inherently wrong with saying 'be aware of your surroundings.' But most rapes come from people who are trusted.
And also, as the only way to truly stop rape is to not have any more attempted rapes, what is wrong with telling people "These are the laws, break them and you're in a world of hurt"? We do that with drunk driving, for example, don't we?
Heidi
(58,237 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,339 posts)Plus, some will skip freshman orientation to hit the frat pledge parties.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)On a campus, it's a pretty safe bet.
Your second comment makes no sense. Perhaps you were still a little dazzled by your derpy hairsplitting when you typed it.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,339 posts)but on an urban campus, it's not a safe bet.
The second comment was just snark. The thought is that students who are rapists will probably skip or mock any orientation class that suggests rape is bad. Such a student would probably have a long history of behavioral issues, including bullying, and would probably be somewhat sociopathic before becoming a college freshman.
I'm not sure what "derpy" means, but if it's related to "dumb", I plead guilty. I should have known better than to post in the middle of a DU thread-storm.