Genocide? This is in fact what genocide looks like:

[PCIntern]

Yes. It’s very upsetting. My grandfather’s entire family’s rings may well have been in that box.

[ismnotwasm]

1. Co-opting the word genocide

Is one of the more disturbing aspects about this whole situation. It is done without care, or concern, or respect. It’s repeated so much it loses its actual meaning. Pictures like the one you posted bring that meaning back.

[Martin68]

48. 37,000 Palestinians and 1,478 Israel's have died. That imbalance could be construed by many rational people to amount

to genocide, particularly considering that the majority of the Palestinians killed have been innocent civilians living in densely populated urban areas in Gaza. It is obvious to this observer that crimes have been committed by both sides. An awful lot of "an eye for an eye" going on. The International Court has experts in genocide, and have prosecuted those responsible for genocide during the Bosnian War. I would tend to trust their legal and moral understanding of the term. But that's just me.

[Bad Thoughts]

57. Eye for an eye is justice, not war

Hamas chose to fight a war, meaning it wanted to use violence rather than other means and it was willing to allow Israel to do the same.

The fact that the casualties are uneven is meaningless. They are entirely consistent with how and where the war is being fought. Claiming that they may suggest something like genocide is poisoning public discourse. What is happening in Gaza does not resemble Rwanda or the Holocaust or any known genocide.

[Martin68]

61. Hamas chose to fight a war. Israeli is killing and maiming a hundred thousand civilians. "Collateral damage?"

Last edited Mon Jun 10, 2024, 12:16 PM - Edit history (2)

That term was invented during the Vietnam War. It was a crime then, and it is a crime now.

[Bad Thoughts]

68. When compared to other urban warfare, Gaza is a fucking miracle

The tragedy that has beset some 30,000 Gazans, which includes reasonable Hamas deaths, is strikingly low when compared to other battles in urban areas. Almost every expert in military affairs interviews on this subject has acknowledged this.

Hamas chose to fight this war as it was. It situates its people and arms not only in urban areas, but deliberately mixes the, in with civilians and civilian institutions. Universally, Hamas is at fault for exposing them by their placement and starting this war.

You may well want peace, but itcis Hamas that must be pressured to surrender.

[Martin68]

72. Your blithe statement regarding "The tragedy that has beset some 30,000 Gazans" is shockingly callous. That figure

refers to deaths, not the hundreds of thousands of maimed women, children and elderly family members who happened to be living in the apartment buildings Israel has razed with American bombs. In addition, you choose to ignore international agreements that an invader is responsible for protecting, feeding and sheltering the population they displace. On the contrary, Israel has blocked food and water deliveries to millions of Palestinians who moved at the order of Israel to supposedly safe places. There is no sign that the Netanyahu government has made any plans for the aftermath of the incredible destruction they have visited on Gaza.

[AloeVera]

74. TRUTH!

[Bad Thoughts]

122. Deaths are a clear hard data point

Casualties/injuries involve a range of different types of medical needs, but can be anything (for a soldier) that requires leaving the field of battle for treatment. It could be paralysis. It could be needs a few stitches after tripping while in retreat. Moreover, it reflects issues not related directly to how each side fights, such as its ability or willingness to put out advanced medical treatment. Fatalities are a much more useful metric.

The invader is responsible for the care of civilians in areas it controls. Israel has waffled on this, but aid has never really stopped. I think you need to look, again, at other times of urban warfare to see that the inconsistency of aid is not consistent with genocide.

At the moment, Netanyahu has no need to reveal plans for the post war. I suggest you think of ways that constructive policies can be made through US diplomatic pressure. Specious accusations of "genicide" won't help.

[Martin68]

175. I disagree with your contention that "Netanyahu has no need to reveal plans for the post war." The US is supplying

weapons, intelligence, and political support. If Biden asks for post-war plans, they should be provided. If not, the US should stop providing assistance.

[oldsoftie]

216. Death tolls are also controlled by Hamas; no independent verification.

[Martin68]

240. So what is the Israeli governments estimate? Is it within acceptable parameters for the killing of innocent civilians

and forcing hundreds of thousands of families to relocate to a place without shelter, food, or water?

[oldsoftie]

277. Hamas shouldn't have started all this shit. The blame lies with them.

They crave civilian deaths. They were holding these 4 rescued hostages in an apartment building.
Get rid of them & maybe the Palestinians life will improve; even though most of them support the Oct attack

[Martin68]

282. You are saying Israel is complicit in Hamas' plan to cause Palestinian civilian deaths to get international sympathy.

Thus, Israel has aided Hamas by killing thousands of Palestinian civilians. By your logic, Israel and Hamas are equally guilty for Palestinian civilian slaughter. congratulations! You have reached new heights of cynicism and twisted logic.

[oldsoftie]

298. Your mental gymnastics are ridiculous. Israel is trying to wipe out as many terrorists as possible.

Just like anyone else would do.
The point is Hamas doesnt care about their own people. its not my problem that the people who put them in charge and support their violence are now suffering because of their choices. They will continue to live like a 3rd world country because of their priorities.
Learn to live like civilized people & your situation will change. Until then, oh well. Sometimes life's a bitch.

[ExciteBike66]

168. So many callous folks here at DU, very saddening.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

170. That's BS,

as a matter of fact, there are many here who have a difference of opinion, that doesn't make those that disagree as callous.

[Martin68]

179. It's only BS if there is no base for a charge of callousness. Some posts here demonstrate a total lack of empathy for

Palestinian civilian casualties. Whether or not they are justified as a side effect of war, maimed and killed women, children and elderly civilians are worthy of sympathy. There are some here who refuse to offer that simple humanitarian concession. That is callous.

[yagotme]

224. How many posts have you seen showing empathy for the civilians killed on Oct 7, by the posters

demanding compassion for the Palestinians? Very, very few, right???

[ShazzieB]

184. And this right here is why it's not possible to have a serious, nuanced conversation about these issues at DU.

So many people here are only interested in hurling ugly accusations at those with differing opinions. (Especially the word "genocide," which seems to be number one on the hit parade, despite how few people have a genuine understanding of what it really means.)

I usually stay out of these threads because of the way they devolve into contests of who can come up with the most and ugliest insults to pelt each other with. We should be striving for a more mature level of discourse here at DU, imo, but very few people seem to be interested in doing that. Instead, schoolyard taunts are the order of the day. What a complete freaking waste of time.

[oldsoftie]

215. What we are, is realistic. Hamas stated goal is the TOTAL destruction of Israel

Why do so many people in the world keep ignoring that?
That reality means Hamas will use ANY tool to achieve that gaol; even using their own people (who they claim to be "supporting&quot as cover for their attacks.
Yes, Netanyahu needs to GO. But trying appeasement with Hamas is a fools errand. Just like with any other tyrannical regime.

[Martin68]

237. Granted, the stated goal of Hamas is the total destruction of Israel. Granted, Hamas is an evil terrorist organization.

However, Hamas does not have the ability to completely destroy Israel. So their goal is irrelevant to the discussion. The US wants to create a credible political leadership to replace Hamas in Gaza, but we cannot do that without Israel's cooperation. Unfortunately, Netanyahu is in charge, and he will not negotiate. Until the US has a partner in Israel with whom we can negotiate, Israel will continue to demolish Gaza. Israel is demonstrating that it has the very real ability to completely level Gaza, and is well on their way towards doing so. Have you even looked at photos of the destruction?

[edisdead]

290. So Israel should just be content

So Israel should just be content to have thousands massacred forevermore?

I do not like the situation. Not at all. But what is Israel supposed to do? These fucks have been poking this bear for over 20 years now. They state over and over again that they wish to kill all Israelis. Why do people not believe them? The fact that they cannot do it in one fell swoop doesn’t mean that Israel needs to let a group kill and maim their people over and over again. And then only kill as many in return every time. The should not have to live like that. And MORE fucking importantly Palestinians shpuld not have to live pike this. But it sure doesn’t seem like Palestinians have or had been very intent on changing theor circumstances. Oh, I know they were powerless against Hamas. So Israel should just take it?

I don’t have to like the current response from Israel but what should they do? Absolute fucking madness that Hamas is not listed as the number one reason for what is happening right now.

[Martin68]

305. No, Israel should not to be content. Israel should work towards a two-state solution, which Netanyahu has abandoned.

Israel should eliminate Hamas by means of a ground invasion of Gaza and very costly door-to-door fighting to root Hamas out instead of bombing entire apartment buildings, hospitals and schools to kill a few Hamas militants. Israel should be responsible for the shelter and feeding of the hundreds of thousands of refugees they have created.

[manicdem]

296. It's the coalition of orgs against Israel

Hamas in Gaza/West Bank, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, Houthis, and others coordinated together can wreak massive destruction upon Israel today. It's only the threat from Israel's allies that keep them at bay.

Israel has come close to being destroyed in the past.

[wnylib]

230. You are supporting the disinformation campaign of a terrorist organization.

Last edited Mon Jun 10, 2024, 12:13 PM - Edit history (1)

[Martin68]

238. Give me one example of disinformation I posted. Otherwise, stop posting here.

[enid602]

116. Genocide

This post reminds me of my Dad. ‘You call that genocide? That ain’t no goddamn genocide! I’ll SHOW you fuckin’ genocide.’

[Bad Thoughts]

118. I am no one's "daddy issues"

Certainly not yours.

[Lucky Luciano]

173. Many of those civilians supported Hamas's actions. If they supported it, they are not collateral damage. Guilty.

The kids I feel bad about, but war is hell. Too bad their parents were terrible.

[Bluepinky]

205. Many Palestinians did not support Hamas's actions.

And the children are innocent, no matter who the parents are. Sounds pretty cold to think the kids deserve what happens to them because of where they were born.

[oldsoftie]

217. 70% of Gazans supported the attacks of October.

War doesnt give you a chance to find the ones that dont. Change your way of life if you want to have one to live.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
"Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct"


https://allarab.news/over-70-of-palestinians-approve-of-hamas-invasion-on-oct-7-recent-poll-shows/

"Over 70% of Palestinians approve of Hamas invasion on Oct.7, recent poll shows
93% don’t believe Hamas committed war crimes against Israeli civilians"

[yagotme]

225. "Deserve".

Where did the previous poster said the kids "deserve" what they got? You might want to re-read their post,,,

[Bluepinky]

245. I read it, sounds like lack of empathy to me.

Many of the people killed in Gaza are children, killed because of where they happen to live.
And I believe it’s terrible that international aid workers and hospitals are targeted.
The initial attack by Hamas against Israel was horrendous, of course, but the response from Israel seems equally horrendous, but on a much larger scale.

[yagotme]

247. "Deserve" and "I don't care" are different things.

Just to let you know...

[Bluepinky]

249. Obviously, they're spelled differently.

[yagotme]

251. Lead and lead are spelled the same.

Different meanings. Point???

[Bluepinky]

252. I choose not to argue about something silly. Have a good one.

[yagotme]

253. Choosing not to argue about something silly,

while being the one to start said argument, is,

not logical.

[manicdem]

297. Children under 21

I've read that the casualty numbers put out categorize children as being under 21. That means a good number of them are actually militants age 15 to 20.

[yagotme]

301. That part of the world, you can probably lower that age even more.

Welcome to DU!

[Martin68]

241. So are you going to undertake a survey to prove that every family killed in their apartments, and every man, woman, and

child injured and forced to live without shelter, food or water is a Hamas supporter? Are you holding children accountable for the crime of supporting Hamas? Think about what you're saying. By that logic, the US could have dropped nuclear weapons over the entire country of Japan. They all supported the emperor and his war. We had the right to kill every German who had joined the Nazi Party? Along with their families.
do you believe the fire bombing of Dresden was justified?

[Progressive dog]

276. The US only had two nuclear weapons at the time.

One had been tested. Of the two that remained, both were dropped on Japanese cities. They were not dropped on an unpopulated area or even an isolated military base as a warning. Both existing weapons were dropped on cities. IMO No one who is attacked is morally required to protect civilians of the attacking power at the expense of any of its people.

[Martin68]

285. Fire bombing raids killed as many if not more civilians than the nuclear bombs. We could have fire-bombed every Japanese

city because they had not air defenses left. Your cynical approach would condone such an action. By international law, an invading force is morally required to protect civilians of the attacking power at the expense of any of its people. Particularly when the "attacking power" has lost its ability to defend itself as is the case in Gaza, and as was the case in Japan.

If I could extend the comparison with the attack on Japan, the US dropped two nuclear bombs to force the Emperor to announce a surrender. By the same token, hasn't Israel visited Gaza with enough destruction to consider a cease fire? The Palestinian people have no one to surrender for them. The US and other countries are trying to negotiate a cease fire to allow the formation of an interim political leadership to be formed that can answer for Gaza, and plan peace and recovery. Netanyahu is against that for a number of reasons including his own political survival, his evasion of justice for crimes for which he has been indicted, and his belief that Israel has the right to settle Israelis on Palestinian land.

[Progressive dog]

303. Obviously the US did achieve the surrender of Japan

resulting in the loss of many many fewer lives, both Japanese and American, than would have been lost during a continuation of the war. The US did fire bomb Tokyo and other cities prior to having nuclear weapons.
WW2 did end in cease fires after the enemy surrendered. How many times now in the last 75 years have the Palestinians attacked and murdered Israeli civilians? Do you think once more will solve the problem? Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and supported by a large majority of Gazans.

[Lucky Luciano]

288. Not exactly that at all...but if you go after Hamas directly and their sympathizers perish in the process then...

I did sympathize with the kids stuck in the middle of the terrible adults that are playing on your heartstrings by being used as pawns for propaganda purposes.

[Straw Man]

198. Collateral damage.

That term was invented during the Vietnam War. It was a crime then, and it is a crime now.

Was it a crime when the British and Americans bombed German cities in the Second World War?

[Dan]

109. I'm curious....what were the "...other means..." available to them?

[Bad Thoughts]

125. Oslo Process, to start

[tornado34jh]

201. Ask the Armenians how they were forced out of Nagorno-Karabakh, and it wasn't even a fair fight!

Genocide does not necessarily have to involve killing. When Azerbaijan took over Nagorno-Karabakh, they had weapons from Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Israel. Yes, fucking Israel sent weapons to Azerbaijan, so it is not innocent in this matter. Furthermore, the tens of thousands of Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh were forced to flee, essentially ethnic cleansing. Do you fucking think THAT is genocide, or does it only apply to certain countries and instances? What is YOUR definition of genocide? If Israel is forcing Palestinians out of their lands, well, last I checked, forced deportation, such as in Ukraine, is a war crime, and in certain instances, can be considered genocide. Try to refute that! I am not saying that Hamas isn't responsible for the conflict, but to act like the bastard Likud party, who believe in Revisionist Zionism, which by definition calls for territorial expansionism, isn't responsible for the conflict is being disingenuous. Otherwise, why would hundreds of thousands of people in Israel be protesting against Netanyahu?

[wnylib]

231. You are using the word genocide rather loosely

when you apply it to removal of people without killing them. Ethnic cleansing or forced removal applies to that action, but not genocide. The "cide" ending means killing, not removal. Fratricide, matricide, etc.

That kind of creative use of language is commonplace among supporters of disinformation about Israel.

[tornado34jh]

270. There is a thing called cultural genocide

It's the attempted destruction of a group's culture, religion, etc. It can mean the destruction of monuments, churches, or basically anything related to that group, like what Azerbaijan is doing. They are destroying Armenian churches and are trying to erase anything that even resembles Armenian. It often is associated with imperialism, and it doesn't have to necessarily involve killing people. But again, no one has refuted the argument that Israel has sent weapons to Azerbaijan, which were a big part of why the Armenians had no chance to defend itself in Nagorno-Karabakh. Riddle me this, why are hundreds of thousands of people in Israel protesting against Netanyahu, who is partly responsible for this conflict?

[rpannier]

211. Maybe you could ask Sandrine Irankunda

She is a survivor of the Rwandan Genocide and she does see striking parallels
She lived it. She lost all her family in it
Maybe you could go on facebook and tell her why she's wrong

[Beastly Boy]

136. Those rational people would also have to be ignorant.

Genocide is a crime that is well defined. The number of victims on either side does not figure into that definition.

[ShazzieB]

186. Good point.

I think people like to throw that word around just because they know it means something very, very bad. Accusing others of bad things seems to make some people feel righteous.

I'm not one of them. When I hear those accusations, I tend to look more askance at the accusers than the accused. It's such a horrible thing to accuse people of that, imo, no one dhould do it without an overwhelmingly powerful rationale. The reasons some people point to are almost never sufficient afaic.

[SoFlaBro]

262. They used the word "genocide" like a fucking cudgel in discussions that should be more fucking nuanced and delicate.

[oldsoftie]

214. Thats because Hamas chooses to hide and attack from the midst of civilians.

If Israel WANTED a true genocide the dead would easily be over a million by now.
By now everyone knows a dead Israeli is a good thing to Hamas & a dead Palestinian child is a GREAT thing to Hamas.

[betsuni]

219. +1

[wnylib]

220. Rubbish. It's a guerrilla war in an urban setting.

That's why civilians are getting killed, often by people on their own side when Hamas fires back at Israeli forces.

Hamas chose the battlefield locations. Israeli forces are following them where they are.

[TheKentuckian]

291. What would be rational about that?

The purpose is to eliminate the capacity of a hostile threat to repeat itself, to end current attacks, and protect a nations citizens which includes the recovery of hostages not to seek some body count equilibrium.

I'd suggest that your concept is what is irrational and pointless.
Just tit for tat vengeance with not even the thought of anything but.

If the desired outcome was "balance" then it was probably unwise to attack in the first place.

[Martin68]

283. The use of the word genocide an exaggeration? How would you distinguish genocide from what Israel is doing to the

Palestinians? Israel has stepped over the line of self defense into the devastation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilian lives. Death, lifelong injuries, and the destruction of homes, hospitals, and all life-giving infrastructure. They are left without shelter, food, or water. Genocide by any other name would smell as vile. Israel is telling them they must leave or die. What other choice do the Palestinian people have? They are not Hamas. They are not killing Israelis or holding hostages, but they are dying by the thousands and suffering catastrophic consequences for the actions of Hamas. The Nazis didn't kill all the Jews right away. They took away their homes, forced them to move into crowded ghettoes, and then killed them by the thousands. Is gas kinder than bombs?

[Voltaire2]

2. So African lives don't matter?

Southeast Asian lives don’t matter?

Indigenous American lives don’t matter?

[Ontheboundry]

3. Said nobody at all here

[Voltaire2]

4. Absolutely the implication of the op.

[sheshe2]

9. It absolutely was not the 'implication' of the OP, PCIntern.

[Happy Hoosier]

11. Nonsense.

It’s differentiating murder from actual genocide. The broadening of the term cheapens it.

That’s not to say individual deaths are any less meaningful, just that they are not part of an actual genocide. If genocide applies to ALL of these incidents, how do we differentiate something like the holocaust? The industrial level of systematic murder of that event is unparalleled, and the attempts to equate what’s happening in Gaza to that is.. well… revealing.

[murielm99]

16. The UN addressed actual genocide long ago.

Google "The UN definition of genocide" and you will find detailed articles. I will use the established definition and avoid this arguing.

This is another example of letting our opposition define the terms and change the language. They have turned the word "liberal" into an epithet. They have made it look like patriotism and family values are theirs and theirs alone. They don't get to redefine genocide!

[jaxexpat]

36. It's troubling how the outrageousness of Nazi extremes has redefined an important term.

The first time I ever heard the term Genocide used beyond the Holocaust reference was reading about the Boer war. People of that era had no qualms about describing the concentration camp campaign on civilians there as genocide. There was the European war against the American natives which, though longer term, was possibly even more racially destructive than Hitler's obsession. Armenians are not, even today, allowed to reference their roaring twenties history with the "Young Turks". The African slave trade was, in every category, a racial genocide. The results of that outrageous injustice haunt EVERY aspect of South and North American societies today and into the foreseeable future.

The list of tribal misery is endless and not a single entry is insignificant. I think a most remarkable element of the Nazi Holocaust, aside from the sheer documented numbers of victims, is that Germany has, for nearly 80 years, sustained its look-in-the-mirror moment. Its people, their society and Europe in general have benefitted in, what must have seemed to the survivors in 1945, unimaginable ways. That is a truly unprecedented and memorable legacy of the Holocaust. It would certainly be detrimental to those victims' memory if their legacy was to be a source of conversation-stopping pride and a benchmark against which the significance of all other atrocities would be summarily dismissed.

Let's pick our arguments carefully. There is plenty of misery to go around.

[thucythucy]

63. "People of that era had no qualms" about using the term "genocide"?

The Boer War was 1899 to 1902.

The term "genocide" was coined in 1944 by the writer Raphael Lempkin.

Please cite an instance of the term being used "by people of that era" -- that is 1899 to 1902 -- and I will stand corrected. Otherwise I don't see how their use of the term would even be possible.

Then too, one irony of trying to describe the Boer War in South Afirca as an instance of "genocide" is that the Afrikaners community, "the Boers," would go on to support Nazi Germany during World War II, and afterwards would institute apartheid--a term which they in fact coined. So it seems passing strange to me to see them described as victims of "genocide."

But yes, there has been and continues to be plenty of misery going around. As a species I don't these days hold out too much hope for humanity.

[jaxexpat]

95. I jumped the gun, but not a shark, exactly:

British protest during the Boer War about the utilization of controversial concentration camps:
"Emily Hobhouse in June 1901 published a fifteen-page pamphlet reporting on the horrific state of the camps, and Lloyd George openly accused the government of "a policy of extermination" directed against the Boer population." (Compliments to Wikipedia)

I supplanted "genocide" for "a policy of extermination", gratuitously I suppose. Thanks for declaiming my bad, and apologies to Mr. Lemkin for misappropriating his word. It is, however, not so passing strange, I think, when you consider the tendency of some abused persons becoming, themselves, abusers. A variety of Stockholm syndrome on a grand scale, perhaps. But to be certain, after the Boer war, many Boers, for generations, would take sides with any enemy of the British Empire. Such is life in the atrocity business.

[thucythucy]

105. I thought as much.

I had no problem with your post otherwise.

And it was the British of that era who indeed invented the term "concentration camp"--so there's that. The British campaign against the Boers, whether intentional or not, resulted in incredible suffering for people who'd committed no crime other than being a member of the "wrong" ethnicity.

As for the Boers taking sides against the British, there too you make a good point. There was of course also a wide streak of racism in that community to begin with, but it's not like that was terribly unusual among whites in Africa, or anywhere else at that time. One might say the same is true today.

Your comment reminded me of a story about FDR. This was in 1940 or '41, when he was trying to ease the US into supporting Britain before Pearl Harbor. He was supposedly meeting with a group of Irish American community leaders who were opposed to Lend Lease and any other such measures. He reportedly burst out, in frustration, "You have to put aside your resentment of the English and see how important it is that Germany not win this war!" Or words to that effect.

Like Gandhi said, "An eye for eye makes the whole world blind." Probably not an exact quote, but pretty close.

Best wishes.

[Martin68]

50. 37,000 deaths in a densely populated urban area due to bombing and rocket attacks is not simple murder.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

52. You're right, that's incredibly restrained warfare. We should applaud Israel for their consideration and humanity. n/t

[Martin68]

58. Anyone who would consider that "humanitarian" is beyond the pale of civilized discourse.

Last edited Sun Jun 9, 2024, 08:43 PM - Edit history (1)

How many millions were ordered to move, and then, after they did so, to move again? To where? This is inhuman.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

67. No. That's war. Deal with it.

And I'll outright say it; "Oh no they had to move a few miles away to avoid dying" counting as "Genocide" is fucking laughable and deserves to be laughed at.

You don't call wildfires genocidal. You don't call hurricanes genocidal. You don't call WWII attacks on Germany's civilian population, WHICH WAS INTENDED TO KILL MIND YOU, genocidal. The firebombing of Japan wasn't genocidal. And if someone has at least two neurons to clack together in the vapid, lonely expanse of nothingness that is their cranium, they sure as fuck don't call "Please move while we bomb the shit out of these terrorists" genocidal. Sure, 20k are dead, some Hamas and some not; That's the war Hamas asked for, begged for, pleaded for. And they got it.

"Inhuman". Pft. Guess there are differing definitions of "Human". Reminds me of a certain moustache man from the 40s.

[Dan]

112. Interesting post... well, it may be war

But maybe as Americans, we should choose not to be a part of that war and should withdraw our support to that “war”.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

114. See, that? That statement? I agree with that. We're not the World Police.

My ONLY disagreement is that if Israel comes close to being exterminated, we should support them however they need. But clearly they're in no dire need of aid.

[AloeVera]

115. Welcome to the Orwellian world of gaslighting and doublespeak.

Where the careless at best, willful at worst, indiscriminate killing of babies, children and civilians is vaunted as the best of humanity.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

117. Ah yes, Orwell, where the duly elected government propped up terrorist acts to support genocide.

Where the "Good" was as malleable as "Evil", where terrorism was the height of sanctity when against the "Right" minorities. Where thought and fact were rendered moot when the Orthodox must be maintained, yet the Orthodox could change at the drop of the hat; Right is Left, Left is Right, Two Plus Two is Five; Terrorism is Peace and Peace is Genocide. The Jew must die. So sayeth the Government of Palestine.

Yes, please; cite Orwell more.

[AloeVera]

129. I think you missed the point of that book.

Those are the things the good guy(s) fought against. Sort of like they would today fight against the view that the arguably indiscriminate killing of children and civilians shows "incredible restraint and should be applauded for consideration and humanity".

[Hellbound Hellhound]

248. The "Point" is that the "Bad Guys" manipulate language, change definitions and use words as weapons.

Words like "Innocents". "Civilians". "Genocide". All of those lose meaning when the despotic, totalitarian dictators redefine them and those points are regurgitated by their willing agents.

Hamas? Those are "Civilians", not "Terrorists".

Ununiformed combatants and hostage-wranglers? Those are just "Innocents", not "War Criminals".

Reciprocal and legal warfare? "GENOCIDE!" not "Getting their asses kicked in a war they started".

Thought itself that goes against these totalitarian dipshits becomes a crime, where any deviance from the orthodox view cannot even be comprehended, because there are no other words that aren't defined by The Party, or in this case, Hamas supporters. Language as a weapon of mass destruction, and we're seeing it in real time by the Hamas propaganda elements on the internet.

Please, do continue to try to cite 1984. We've only scratched the surface and I'm genuinely eager to see where you dive next!


ON EDIT: And let's not forget. "Rapist, murdering, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, religious theocratic Nazi zealots"? Those are "FREEDOM FIGHTERS!"

Orwellian indeed.

[AloeVera]

256. Indeed. Let's see how it works from a different angle.

The "Point" is that Israel and defenders manipulate language, change definitions and use words as weapons.
Words like "Humane". "Restrained". "Self-Defence". "Human Shields". "MOST MORAL ARMY!" All of those lose meaning when the vengeful, bloodthirsty, land-grabbing apartheid occupiers redefine them and those points are regurgitated by their willing hasbara agents.

"Civilians"? Those are "Terrorists".

"Innocents"? Those are ununiformed combatants, hostage wranglers and "War Criminals". Even the 1500 or so babies, all fake, even the names and ID numbers. Even the 10k plus "children" - teenagers manning rockets!

"GENOCIDE?" No, Getting their asses kicked in a war they started". Even though 2 million plus people who had nothing to do with Oct 7 are the ones mainly dying. What's a little starvation, it's healthy for the body, besides THERE IS NO LIMIT TO THE AMOUNT OF AID ALLOWED IN! No homes, no water? Fresh air by the sea, what finer vacation? Just ignore the constant sound of drones and the screams of your neighbours or children burning alive or crushed and mangled to death. Israel is DEFENDING ITSELF against these murderous, rapist cretins! THEY STARTED IT!!!

Thought itself that goes against these virtuous Israelis becomes a crime, where any deviance from the orthodox view cannot even be comprehended, because there are no other words that aren't defined by The Party of Apartheid and Occupation, or in this case, Israeli supporters. Language as a weapon of mass destruction, and we're seeing it in real time by the Israeli defender hasbara elements on the internet.

Orwellian indeed.

[tritsofme]

258. "hasbara agents" really letting the veil slip here, aren't we?

[Hellbound Hellhound]

260. Holy shit, are you kidding me? An active and willing agent of Hamas? XD

Nine Hells I knew Hamas were active, but I didn't know I'd have my part in tipping their hand!

Fuck 'em. May Israel give them EVERYTHING they deserve. And it's a damn shame MIRT can't get them on top of it all.

[AloeVera]

269. I will be communicating with my Hamas handler this evening for further instructions.

Not really.

See Post # 268.

[AloeVera]

267. Isn't hasbara just "explanation"?

It's used by the Jerusalem Post, among many others. It's still in common usage. However, I understand there is now a move to call it "public diplomacy", moving away from an event-driven, reactive mode of hasbara to a pro-active, long-term strategic approach.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-796709

The title of the article is "What does Israel's hasbara campaign look like six months into the Hamas war?

So please explain what sort of veil is being dropped here.

[lapucelle]

275. Is that like when somebody "explains" how Hamas did not break the November ceasefire

and links to a news story as putative evidence, and then when a reader goes to the link, the facts in the actual news story are nothing like the "explanation"?

Would that type of "explanation" be an example of an "event driven reactive mode" or part of a "pro-active long-term strategic approach"?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219008619#post166

[AloeVera]

279. Wow.

I have not yet responded to you on that other thread. Sure as hell not going to now.

Ignore.

[lapucelle]

287. Wow ... what? The following is your *explanation* of the reason why Hamas broke the ceasefire:

Hamas agreed to release Israeli citizens, not soldiers. They argued the remaining female captives were soldiers. They offered to exchange elderly men instead. Israel rejected that.

And you linked to the Axios story as if it would provide evidence for the claim in your *explanation*.

-------------------------------------------

Here's what the Axios story actually said:

According to the ceasefire agreement, Hamas committed to releasing all the women and children it was holding hostage in exchange for a pause in fighting for up to nine days

snip-----------------------------

In the hours leading to the end of the pause, Hamas did not send a list of hostages it would release, the three Israeli officials said.

Instead, Hamas sent messages through Qatari and Egyptian mediators proposing to start a discussion on what concessions Israel would be willing to give in return for the release of elderly men, the officials added.

snip=======

The U.S. has also publicly blamed Hamas for the collapse of the ceasefire.

https://www.axios.com/2023/12/01/gaza-ceasefire-collapse-israel-hostages

-----------------------------------------

The facts as stated in the Axios article don't fit the *explanation* given. Those who didn't know better might almost say that the *explanation" sounds somewhat like a defense of Hamas.

So the question stands: Is the *explanation* an example of an "event driven reactive mode" *explanation* or part of a "pro-active long-term strategic approach", terms you yourself introduced into the discussion?

--------------------------------------------------------

Extra Credit

Some might say that Hamas broke the terms of the ceasefire when they fired missiles at Israel on November 30.

Others might argue that Hamas broke the terms of the ceasefire agreement when they refused to release the women and children that they had agreed to release, and instead tried to extract new concessions from Israel.

Accepting for a moment the bizarre misreading of the terms of the ceasefire as per the *explanation*, the child hostages were certainly not soldiers.

Why did Hamas refuse to release the children?

[AloeVera]

268. Discussion over.

You've crossed my line by conflating all Palestinians - presuming that includes babies and kids - with Hamas.

Oh and calling me and those who think like me worse than Nazis.

In reality, not in a book, you are the one calling for the extermination of a people you don't like, based on some very disturbing and questionable beliefs about them. You suffer from a very serious case of demonization and dehumanization of millions of people who are your fellow human beings.

[PatSeg]

263. Well said

Sounds rather Orwellian to me.

[TheKentuckian]

293. The argument is overwrought at the very best and more like ridiculous

Indiscriminate bombing with no regard for civilians (despite the incredibly difficult task of differentiating them) would see a death toll on a whole different scale.

An actual intent to destroy the civilian population would be on yet another.

The insistence on starting any conversation on this topic well outside the bounds of reality means it can never go anywhere because it is rooted in intellectual dishonesty in favor of the desire for emotional emphasis.

[Beastly Boy]

139. In every single instance, they were moved away from Hamas military targets, into areas free of those targets.

And Hamas kept moving their military targets into civilian areas. IDF had no capacity to prevent Hamas from hiding behind civilians, but they had the capacity to warn civilians of the dangers they face. It saved countless civilian lives. None were moved by force.

You make it sound like civilians were physically forced out on a whim. You know full well this is not the case.

[choie]

134. "Consideration and humanity"?

That is obscene and perverse.

[ShazzieB]

190. Oh, boy!

Let's throw some more ugly words at people we disagree with, shall we? What fun!

[Martin68]

239. I have seen more than enough ugly photographs of the death and destruction raining on Gaza.

NOT SARCASM

[ShazzieB]

261. We've all see the ugly photos, dear.

I just can't comprehend how insulting people with differing opinions helps Gaza or those trying to survive there. But if you find attacking and villifying fellow DUers who happen to hold differing opinions on very complex issues to be of some use, you go right ahead.

I realize there have been angry words on both sides. At this point, I have no idea who "started" it, but it needs to STOP. Every insult that gets thrown from one side increases the anger and defensiveness on the other. It has become a never ending spiral, and I. Am. Freaking. Sick. And. Tired. Of. It.

No matter what you or I or anyone else may think about what's going on in Gaza, there IS more than one side to every issue, and those who disagree with you here AT DU are NOT monsters, just people with a different point of view.

IMNSHO, DU should be a place where people are allowed to disagree with each other without calling each other horrible things. That's why there are rules here about civility. Unfortunately, those rules no longer seem to apply where this topic is concerned, and I. Am. Freaking. Sick. And. Tired. Of. It.

That is all.

[Martin68]

286. "Dear?" Does insulting me bolster your argument? Have I indicated I'm uncomfortable with disagreement?

If I was, I wouldn't be expressing my opinion on this topic. You seem to believe the expression of a differing opinion indicates an opposition to allowing disagreement to be expressed. Where did you get that idea? What horrible thing did I call anyone? Does expressing my opinion on about Israeli actions in Gaza indicate I am attacking and villifying fellow DUers? I tbink the worst thing I have said about anyone's opinion was that it was "callous." That's pretty tame when responding to someone who feels that 30,000 civilian deaths are not worth mentioning. Get a grip, please.

[ShazzieB]

309. Perhaps I should have made my comments more specific.

Unfortunately, all the posts here villifying people who don't hold exactly the same position on the mess in Gaza as the villifyers run together in my mind, and it's hard to keep track of who has said exactly what. If I have attributed statements to anyone here that were actually made by others, I apologize.

However, I cannot apologize for sensing and reacting to the air of moral superiority that radiates from the posts of many here when discussing what has been happening in Israel. Whenever the people on one side of an issue believe that their stance is the only possible "right" and "moral" one, the door to any meaningful dialog is slammed firmly shut, and I hate seeing that happen at DU. But since I am unlikely to be able to change it, I should probably take my Israel supporting, Hamas despising ass out of this thread, just as I have stayed out of many others during these last 8 months, rather than shooting off my mouth (or keyboard). I was momentarily overtaken by my disappointment at the depths to which many of these "conversations" have sunk and felt a need to say something about it. Oh well.

[betsuni]

310. +1

[ShazzieB]

311. Thanks!

[Martin68]

313. ShazzieB., you obviously flew off the handle without a clue who you were responding to or who you were

insulting, vilifying, etc. and without any shame when you realized I am not guilty of any of your vile accusations you directed at me. Of course you can't apologize for falsely accusing me because you clearly have an "air of moral superiority." I suggest you take stock of the fact that you are guilty of exactly what you falsely accused me of. I requested that you tell me what insults you were accusing me of and you were unable to respond with a single one. Shame on you.

[ShazzieB]

316. Actually, the post you originally responded to was directed to someone else.

I didn't check closely enough and assumed I was replying to that person. Didn't realize until later that it was someone else. Any incongruity in my reply was due to that.

I apologize for not double-checking the user name on your post. If I had, I would have replied differently. But then, if you had noticed who I thought I was replying to, perhaps you might have commented differently as well.

I honestly don't remember ever exchanging any comments with you before this (about Gaza or anything else), much less anything specific that you might have said. This whole thing was basically a comedy of errors, and I apologize for my part in perpetuating that. I am also sorry that comments intended for someone else hit the wrong target by mistake.

I still stand by what I said about the air of moral superiority that radiates from the posts of many who are opposed to Israel's actions in Gaza. I am not happy about some of those of those actions myself, but I don't feel I know enough about the realities surrounding Hamas' operations in Gaza to categorically condemn every single action Israel has taken there, and I absolutely reject the notion that this makes me a genocidal monster. If some people want to regard me that way, I can't do anything about that, but I do get tired of it from time to time!

[Hellbound Hellhound]

264. Then call me obscene and perverse.

I oppose the terrorism of Hamas. If that makes me "Obscene" and "Perverse", flip me over, do me in the bum and call me a Sodomite. Just make sure you give me a reacharound before trying to fuck me raw. I won't bow to those theocratic Nazis or their idiotic enablers.

Destroy. All. Hamas.

[OneGrassRoot]

13. dangggggg......

This is why these Israel/Palestine threads devolve so quickly. People are making so many assumptions about one another based on a post. (Granted, evidently there are some members who are more consistent in their messaging and thus their position is clearer.)

OP like this one: "Oh, so other lives don't matter?"

OP about Palestinians: "Oh so you support Hamas?"

OP about Israel: "Oh, so you're okay with genocide?"

For fuck's sake, just the way the left has fractured since October indicates how very complex this entire situation is. It would be easier if the focus could be on what is happening NOW but, very understandably, someone rather quickly points to past history and that IS complex. The history of this region isn't black and white.

I have immersed myself for months (like seriously a full-time job's worth of diving in) reading the history from multiple sources and reading a multitude of discussions and tried to boil it down to colonialist white supremacy but that is so very reductive.

I wish members would quit sniping so at least here we could have more rational, informed discussions. Personally, I'd really like to understand various members' perspectives but the nasty accusations are almost immediate.

ETA: I'm fully aware I have only scratched the surface in my learning.

[betsuni]

40. How?

[Ontheboundry]

124. Where do you see this?

I've read that five times. I don't see it

[malaise]

113. We Africans were denied our wedding rings

I find the way some folks claim words like holocaust and genocide quite disturbing.

[choie]

135. I'm Jewish and completely agree with you Malaise.

n/t

[malaise]

143. Thank you

I have Jewish ancestors and some in laws. One of my BILs thinks more like Bernie Sanders.

[AloeVera]

156. My great-grandmother.

Her ring could be there too.

And still...in her memory and honour...I hold the views that I do.

[Beastly Boy]

141. Slavery and genocide are both crimes against humanity.

But if you look up their respective definitions, they are incompatible. There is no mistaking one for the other.

The rings in the OP do not define genocide, they symbolize it. Genocide itself refers to a specific crime, rings or not, just as holocaust is a well documented specific event, rings or not.

There are some African folks who can legitimately claim these words that other folks can't. And it has nothing to do with rings.

[malaise]

142. I don't need to look up anything

You define nothing for me

[MarineCombatEngineer]

144. Ah yes, the answer of those that are defeated.

Good job.

[Beastly Boy]

148. Maybe you don't need to, but it wouldn't hurt.

For no other reason than obtaining references from legitimate sources. I would be more than happy to defer to those sources for definitions.

[malaise]

157. ROFL

😂😂

[MarineCombatEngineer]

161. Is that the best you got?

Because if it is, then you've got nothing.

But, I suppose, that HAMAs is akin to the great Nelson Mandela as a freedom fighter, according to you that is.

[tritsofme]

164. Nothing justifies the extreme stupidity and ignorance it would take to think Hamas leaders are just like Mandela.

That is all.

[JustAnotherGen]

265. Which country in Africa?

For those of us who are Americans who descend from enslaved people - as soon as we could enjoy the fruits of capitalism - rings were par for the course.

We've pulled my father's paternal line and I know we originated from the Gambia region . . . I did not know wedding rings were used in the late 1700's as a symbol of marriage in Sierra Leone.


I'm going to ask my cousin in law - he's off the plane from SL.

[sheshe2]

5. Where in the OP was that said?

[Johnny2X2X]

6. It's implied

The implication being that genocide can only look one way. There are genocides that have happened that look a lot different than that. Myanmar, Darfur, Syria, Kosovo, etc.

I personally don’t think what is happening in Gaza right now is genocide, but I don’t think the people who do think that are diminishing the Holocaust in anyway. It’s not OK to starve people. It’s not OK to bomb tent cities in supposed safe zones. No amount of history excuses immorality of today.

I’ll repeat this, but Netanyahu is turning the world against Israel, Western support of Israel is no longer assured in the future because far right extremists like Netanyahu are raging right now. Netanyahu is a Trump clone, complete with the corruption, he will destroy Israel if he is given free rein going forward.

[ismnotwasm]

14. I don't really agree

What is implied is, misusing the entire concept of genocide is dangerous.

There are solid ways of predicting genocide based on a number of factors. What people are doing with that is manipulating the word, using OVERT anti-semitism, and presenting this horrific situation as classic good guy/bad guy when it’s not only more complex, but the bad guys are Hamas and other terrorists, bad actors in the Israeli government, and the governments of entire countries surrounding Israel. Oh, and our hands are not clean.
It infuriates me.

[Happy Hoosier]

15. I'd argue, again, that that cheapens the term.

I don’t disagree that Israel is making a mistake at this point, but the attempts to equate Gaza to the holocaust by rolling out the “scare term” genocide is gross.

Some folks can’t see that and that’s pretty revealing to me.

[Johnny2X2X]

17. Again

I don’t think it is genocide.

But I think the definitions of genocide needs to be stated, “Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part.”

Netanyahu stating that Gaza “will never look the same” sounds an awful lot about the intentional destruction of a people. So I get where people are coming from calling it genocide. And I also get that most genocides that have occurred in the last 60 years have been under military strikes where the actors have claimed to be striking legitimate targets.

So far I am giving the IDF a big benefit of the doubt that the civilian casualties aren’t their goal. I am still there, but I think it’s been undeniable that war crimes are occurring. If the US had done these same things after 9/11, millions of Americans would be in the streets protesting our government.

And I don’t think there’s anyway to get rid of Hamas now. They are never going to run out of recruits now.

[sop]

25. Critics should focus on Netenyahu's subservience to narrow ultra-Orthodox and settler interests.

Calling Netenyahu's bloody land grab "genocide" cheapens the meaning of the word.

[Johnny2X2X]

29. Shutting down discussion

Like I said m, I don’t think it’s genocide, but it’s not like the discussion isn’t worth having given 25,000 civilian deaths and the near complete destruction of infrastructure in Gaza.

I find it troubling people are trying so hard to shut that conversation down by claiming any mention of genocide is antisemitism.

[OneGrassRoot]

34. And conversely...

any comments recognizing Israelis’ suffering but NOT negating the Palestinians’ suffering is often met with “So you’re okay with genocide?”

I was just thinking the same thing as you. I don’t think it is intentional on either side of this issue - not here at DU for the most part - but the interactions only serve to shut down meaningful discussion. I wish people would step back to look at that so we could do better.

[Johnny2X2X]

37. Agree

And the right is taking advantage of this all. Painting all protesters as pro Hamas started with Right Wingers. They’re trying to fracture the left. And it’s easy because Netanyahu is so Trump like.

[OneGrassRoot]

38. Absolutely. n/t

[Marcus IM]

59. That goes on here too.

Wasn't just the right. Plenty painters on both sides of the aisle.

[Martin68]

56. So it's okay to bring up genocide if we acknowledge the brutal murder of Israelis by Hamas?

I acknowledge the crimes Hamas has and is committing, and acknowledge the crimes Israel has and is committing. Bombing densely urban areas occupied by hundreds of thousands of civilians is genocide when those residents are all of a particular ethnic and/or cultural origin. Let's not forget the theft of Palestinian land by Israeli so called "settlers." The failure of the Israeli government to do anything to stop that - on the contrary, with the active and vocal support of the Netanyahu administration. The expulsion of Palestinians from their historical homes in East Jerusalem for lack of written documentation, as if they were squatters. Genocide always involves the theft of property.

[OneGrassRoot]

75. Speaking for myself...

My point is that anyone should be able to post about the atrocities - on either side of this issue - without someone immediately replying with gross assumptions ("You're okay with genocide? You support Hamas?).

I also acknowledge the atrocities both are committing. One thing I'd really like to understand, but can't without living either in Gaza or Israel (reading polls and anecdotes aren't reliable enough for me), is how many Palestinians truly support Hamas and other terrorist organizations, and how many Israelis truly support what Netanyahu and settlers are doing.

One side says Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas. One side says the majority of Israelis are okay with displacing (or worse) all Palestinians.

I don't think either is true but there are so many nasty, unnecessary attacks being thrown around. If we're this heated on a message board primarily consisting of people in the US, I can't begin to imagine the emotionality of trying to have calm discussions between Israelis and Palestinians. I'm talking average people, not the so-called "leaders" who have their own agendas, neither of which are to help their constituents, imo.

Edit for clarity.

[OneGrassRoot]

77. Also...

I do recognize that there are a few DUers on both sides of this issue whose posting history about this may have resulted in such assumptions and replies. Without knowing everyone's posting history about this issue, I think we're just creating more chaos and noise with assumptions about one another's comments and OPs.

I've seen a few people reference a DUer compare Hamas to Mandela. I'd like to see that myself. To me, that kind of thing is shocking if the comment was that straightforward.

[revmclaren]

101. To find mentioned post...

Paste justified democraticunderground.com in the search bar.

#34

Very disturbing.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

104. Goddamn, that's egregious. Forgot how bad it was. Like the Brick post from 2016. n/t

[LeftInTX]

123. Densely urban areas occupied by hundreds of thousands of civilians are almost always the same ethnicity.

That's just a fact.

I don't think Netanyahu wants to intentionally kill off the Palestinians.

I feel he's sloppy and enjoying his "war toys" too much. He's not fighting a "smart war"
I don't think he gives a fuck.

He's killing too many civilians, but then again a journalist was holding the hostages in his apartment.

As to whether it is unintentional genocide is hard to determine.

[TheKentuckian]

304. No, an amendment citing an aspect of reality is not a license

for bogus and nonsensical accusations of genocide if that is what "bring up" is supposed to translate to.

[Happy Hoosier]

110. I think people are trying to shut down discussion alright...

… and it’s the folks trotting out the genocide label. If it’s genocide, that’s ends the conversation, otherwise one is defending genocide, right?

It’s meant to stop conversation. It’s meant to establish and accepted narrative.

Nope.

[OneGrassRoot]

121. sigh...

I haven't read every post and comment on DU but I've seen enough here and other fora to have formed a pretty solid opinion about this.

1. Some people are literalists and want words such as genocide to be used adhering to the specific definition. I haven't seen such people deny that what's happening is horrific. We've had semantic conflicts on DU since its inception.

2. Speaking of words, the word Zionist has morphed in meaning over the years and it is another word thrown around a lot since October. I often want to ask what that word means to them but, shit, these threads are impossible.

3. I'm not a literalist and even when I have used the term genocide, if I say anything else about the ongoing horror in a quest to try to understand more, all I hear is "Oh, I guess genocide is okay with you."

Quite literally, if in discussing Israel-Palestine one doesn't ONLY talk about genocide being committed against Palestinians, anything else said is attacked. And, if any discussion about any other topic can be brought around to I/P, a certain contingent will do so, again with the accusation that "I guess you're okay with genocide."

So, yeah, the shutting down of discussion most definitely happens from that direction too.

[AnrothElf]

167. That's exactly what I've seen happening, yup.

Also it strongly feels sometimes that it's being used simply as a bait, because it's SO OFFENSIVE to some people that it's bound to get an overreaction from some.

It's using a term in bad-faith as a bad-faith rhetorical tactic.

[FBaggins]

84. Nope

The post distinguishes between one example of actual genocide and the current conflict which in no way qualifies. This doesn't mean that there have never been any actual genocides other than the Holocaust.

Large casualty counts - even large civilian casualty counts do not a "genocide" make. Genocide has to do with intent. To simplify - we'll just say that as population dense as Gaza is... and as capable as Israel's military is... if their intent has been to wipe out the Palestinian people in Gaza? They're really really bad at it.

[betsuni]

76. Pointing out that genocide has a definition and Israel isn't doing it results in an instant YER RACIST response.

[Behind the Aegis]

79. Be specific!

Had PCIntern posted a pic from the Rwandan or Bosnian genocides OR had not made it about JEWISH genocide, do you think this thread would be this much of a disaster?! I know it wouldn't have!

[betsuni]

83. Yes, it's Jewish genocide that's triggering.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

85. Can't say what I want, Betsuni. Alerts are flying and I know I'm treading the line.

What I will say is this; I never thought I'd be on your side. But I'm glad that I am. You're a good egg. Keep up the fight.

[FBaggins]

91. There are no pics of those genocides that can tell the same story

You can find mass graves or photos of starving refugees (etc.)... but while they are horrific (many likely to be un-postable) they cannot tell the story of the scope of the atrocity the way that the OP can. There were so many millions killed that even tiny remains (fold fillings... rings... etc.) have a way of telling the story that photos from more recent genocides cannot.

?resize=660%2C526&ssl=1

[sheshe2]

82. IKR 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

[ismnotwasm]

7. Why.. never mind

Fuck.

[Bucky]

10. No, the point is that slaughtering 1000s of Palestinians ain't so bad

As long as the Israelis aren't acting as bad as the actual Nazis, every war crime they do is a-okay.

[Bad Thoughts]

62. Tragedy is not the same as genocide

Using the word hyperbolically poisons public discourse, delaying a negotiated end.

[Bucky]

271. "Tragedy" sounds like a natural disaster, not mass slaughter of civilians

I agree about using precise terminology. I make it a habit to never refer to the ethnic cleansing and other IDF war crimes in Gaza as a genocide. It's not. It's a reckless, literally indiscriminate mass slaughter of civilians in violation of the laws of war.

They're not worse than Hamas, of course, not being terrorists. But that's a pretty pathetically low peg to hang their hat on. Being less evil than Hamas is like being less drunk than Ethan Couch, the affluenza kid. They still need to pull over and think about what damage they're doing to their own future.

[Bad Thoughts]

278. Mass slaughter is exaggeration

You are using language deceptively. The Israeli policemen and the IDF did not randomly shoot at people as the y drove in. That would have undermined the element of surprised. What appears to have happened was that at one of the hostage sites, Hamas and other irregular combatant poured in to stop the rescue. That's how most of the killing took place--in that firefight. There were likely many bystanders shot by Israelis and Hamas. So, yes, it is a tragedy. Saying otherwise won't help create a path to peace, only more roadblocks.

[AloeVera]

308. No. It was airstrikes, helicopters and quadcopter drones that did the killing.

Eyewitness accounts. Really horrific scenes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/09/like-the-horrors-of-judgment-day-palestinians-on-israels-hostage-rescue

[Ontheboundry]

126. I'm.not fan of the state of Israel (or a hater fwiw)

But Hamas FAFO you slap someone in the face,.and they beat the hell out of you for it, you don't get to whine about it. They want this scenario, it helps them

[Bucky]

273. I didn't know about Oct 7th being a "slap in the face"

I'm a BIG fan of Israel. I'm all for them beating the hell out of Hamas's armed terrorists. It's the 30,000 innocent civilians they've willingly killed, it's the war crimes, it's the burned alive families and beheaded children and gunned down unarmed civilians that bother me. It's the willfully surrendered moral standing of the Israeli state and the slow creep toward being a rogue state and the insane rejection of the two state solution that I think is bad for Israel and the future of Zionism.

[yagotme]

302. FYI, Hamas counts their militants in the 30,000 number.

IOW, 30,000 Palestinians dead, no militants. More international sympathy that way. It appears to be working.

[Bettie]

19. Mostly, the point is that

Palestinians aren't really people and if they kill everyone in Gaza, it's cool, because....reasons.

[Sky Jewels]

22. And, especially, Palestinian lives don't matter

to some people here.

[Bad Thoughts]

64. They do matter, which is why Sinwar must surrender

[tritsofme]

150. Our valiant slayer of straw men! Thank you for your service!

[Hekate]

154. Said no DUer ever

[betsuni]

212. Keep seeing claims DUers are heartless callous ghouls without empathy who think Palestinians aren't people

or that their lives matter; bringing up the Holocaust as an example of a genuine genocide is self-centered and ignores all other genocides (insinuation because racist). It's a fantasy. No such evil DUers exist. Ridiculous.

[mcar]

181. What are you talking about?

[elias7]

203. Wow, this is the same thing as saying "all lives matter" in a Black Lives Matter thread.

[betsuni]

204. Yes it is.

[Behind the Aegis]

209. A common theme ANYTIME anti-Semitism is mentioned!

Look at some of the past incidents of anti-Semitism and how fast people were to condemn it, but only after making sure that other groups were also mentioned, usually, Muslims (i.e. Islamophobia). So few can be bothered to just condemn anti-Semitism without having to "whatabout" it.

[malaise]

266. We don't matter

That is pellucidly clear

[onecaliberal]

8. I have seen a smaller basket of rings in person at the Museum of Tolerance in LA

I still have dreams about it. I was completely wrecked by that exhibit. The apologist should be made to see it all.
It’s happening right now, not by oven but bombs and starvation.

[PCIntern]

18. That's what war is.

Hamas declared war by its invasion. Perhaps the Israelis should have sent a sternly worded letter in response ?

[Johnny2X2X]

24. You're giving a false choice.

As if there’s nothing in between a sternly worded letter and what is happening now.

And that’s what people are debating. Not that Israel defended itself, but that they’re clearly committing war crimes to do so.

[PCIntern]

27. Uh-huh..."clearly"

So say you and your buddies…
Fact is, the enemy is hiding behind the women and children and know exactly what they are doing so people will vilify Israel. First of all, the death toll of civilians is nowhere near 36000 since Hamas includes its “fighters” -terrorists - in the total which I am certain is exaggerated. And the IDF dropped leaflets to tell people to leave-yeah, real genocide-just like the Nazis or Pol Pot did. Of course, Hamas followed the civilians and hid among them, which the iDF knew they would. Lowlife chickenshit terrorists. But it worked. Here you are attacking Israel. I went through this in 1967 and again in 1973. It never stops.

[TheRickles]

30. So the only way to eliminate the Hamas threat is to eliminate every Palestinian they could be hiding behind.

Which is to say, every Palestinian. Which is to say....well, what word would you use to describe this?

[Hellbound Hellhound]

31. If Palestinian "civilians" are taking and holding hostages? They're Hamas. Yes, eliminate them.

The word to use is "War". A war Hamas started.

[TheRickles]

32. A war in which all civilians are expressly targeted? Where's the precedent for that? Geneva Convention, etc.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

33. Civilians holding hostages are not civilians, they're enemy combatants, via the Geneva Convention.

Also that makes those civilians "War criminals", for what that's worth, as ununiformed combatants. Likewise they can be, IIRC, exterminated with extreme prejudice by the opposing faction when found in a position of an ununiformed combatant.

[TheRickles]

47. So basically every living person in Gaza is fair game, as they may possibly be holding hostages.

Or they may be shields for Hamas, or they might potentially become members of Hamas. Where do you draw the line, if not at total annihilation?

[Hellbound Hellhound]

51. If they're holding hostages, as the US and Israel knew, yes, they're fair game.

If they crossed into Israel to take hostages, yes, they're fair game.

If they're at a Hamas recruiting assembly, yes, they're fair game.

If they're planning Hamas attacks on Israeli targets, yes, they're fair game.

If they're whistling Dixie from behind a rock to distract Israeli forces from Hamas elements, yes, they're fair game.

If they're knowingly harboring war criminals, YES, they're fair game.

None of those are "Civilians" by international law, yet Hamas counts them as such and that number is regurgitated by their willing muppets online.

It's not hard. The distinction is oddly clear and straightforward.

[TheRickles]

99. And if you don't know for sure whether or not they're holding hostages, then just to be on the safe side...

better wipe them out.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

100. If they jump in front of bullets for their lords and masters? Yes, wipe them out. Glad we agree. n/t

[Lucky Luciano]

174. If they cheered for the events of Oct 7 in any way, then yes...definitely wipe them out.

[AloeVera]

73. Yes, one might say it's devilishly clever, no?

It's a perversion of international law meant to PROTECT civilians, not put targets on their backs.

But in reality the human shields are the families and neighbours of everyone having any remote connection to Hamas. The AI Lavender program chooses targets very loosely, even - get this- someone who changes their phones more often than the norm. Then AI Where's Daddy? ensures they are at home with their families, among neighbours, when they are hit. It's grossly inhuman. Human shields are CREATED by these programs and then killed. Wth? If Hamas had the capability to target IDF soldiers while at home and kill them and their families and neighbours - THAT would not be tolerated. We would easily see the evil in that. But not here... I wonder why?

[Marcus IM]

78. We must burn this village down to save it.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

80. Fun Fact: That's what happened during the Black Plague and we're all here because of it

It was effective. It worked. The worlds' first quarantine. And civilization was saved because of it.

So well said.

[Marcus IM]

94. I thought it was Noah's ark that saved us.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

98. Okay, that got me. XD Well done. n/t

[malaise]

165. No

To empty it

[Marcus IM]

196. Yep.

My comment was speaking to the absurdity of the concept.

[malaise]

221. I know that

[TheKentuckian]

320. The intent is to stop the village from burning down another's.

The best way to save the village is for it stop attacking others, release the hostages, and surrender but they are perfectly willing to sacrifice their own in order to try to destroy the other.

[yagotme]

227. If Israel is "expressly targeting" "all civilians", they're really doing a crappy job.

If that's really their plan, they should quit using the precision munitions (which they are getting from us, primarily,), and just go to dumb bombs, and bomb absolutely everything. Quit telling them when or where you're going to bomb. They're not doing that, so your argument kinda falls flat.

[Johnny2X2X]

35. Yes

It is clearly a war crime to cut off humanitarian aid convoys. That’s actual international law. It is clearly a war crime to bomb clearly marked relief vehicles. And yes, Hamas is committing war crimes too, but that doesn’t make it OK.

And it’s not helping Israel. The world is getting closer to cutting Israel loose. Let them go it alone if the brutality of Netanyahu is what they choose. What does the US get it if this special relationship anymore with a wannabe Trump in power there? And it’s especially not lost on people here on DU that Netanyahu really wants Trump back in power here so he can get a green light for more brutality. It’s madness to keep going with Netanyahu, he is doing harm to Israel that will last for generations.

[betsuni]

49. Somehow ignored is the very important detail that warning civilians before military attacks so they can evacuate

ruins the point of genocide.

[AloeVera]

151. Then how did those people die, plus those still under rubble?

Warnings during blackouts? Insufficient warnings? Not enough time to get out?

And of course when it's an actual Hamas target, no warnings are given or what would be the point. Sadly they are with family and neighbours as ensured by Where's Daddy AI.

Which brings me to the question that's been puzzling me. If warnings are given, obviously there are no Hamas targets. So why the massive 2000 lb bombs, or any bombs, to flatten entire neighbourhoods? To a lot of people this looks like pure, unneccessary destruction. That, coupled with the many deaths from bombing - somehow in spite of the "warnings" - makes people think of intentional killing. From there, thoughts of genocide are not far off. Can you try to see why this accusation is happening?

ETA: The systematic obstruction of aid leading to potential or near-famine is another, important reason the g--word is raised. And the domicide, the destruction of the medical system, the denial of fuel and clean water, the dismantling of the life-saving aid agency. Etc etc .So actually there are a lot of factors all pointing in the g-word direction.

[mcar]

182. Hamas is responsible. Period

[AloeVera]

187. That's absurd!

Israel has no agency? Is Hamas responsible for Israel's choices and actions? Beyond ridiculous.

[mcar]

188. Hamas declared war on Israel on Oct 7

Israel has responded.

Do you really believe Hamas bears no responsibility for what they did?

[AloeVera]

189. They do. And they should be tried and brought to justice.

Israel has chosen to kill every member. So it is exacting Biblical justice. Except it's a hundred eyes for one, and most of them belong to innocents.

[TeamProg]

65. There was no cease-fire before Oct. 7th. Invading "settlers" were still killing Palestinians in the West Bank. nt

[yagotme]

228. "No cease fire".

Yes, I agree. Hamas was still launching rockets at Israel, too.

[TeamProg]

233. Terrorist settlers were invading / killing Palestinian farmers.

Ministers slam security chiefs for calling settler attacks on Palestinians ‘terror’
Ben Gvir orders probe into ‘collective punishment’ at settlement of Ateret after assault on nearby Palestinian village; Smotrich rejects security chiefs’ denunciation of attacks
By ToI Staff 25 June 2023, 3:59 amUpdated at 12:12 pm
https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-ministers-reject-criticism-of-settler-attacks-on-palestinians-as-terror/

"""Ministers and lawmakers in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s hardline coalition rejected the harsh criticism leveled by the military and the defense establishment on Saturday against the “terrorism” of extremist settlers who have attacked Palestinians in recent days.

Hundreds of Jewish Israeli settlers have ransacked Palestinian towns in reprisal attacks against Palestinian civilians following a deadly terror shooting near the Eli settlement last week.

The heads of the military, the Shin Bet, and the police issued a joint statement on Saturday evening strongly condemning the ongoing settler attacks in the West Bank and branding them “nationalist terrorism in the full sense of the term.”""""

They can say what they want but it is still terrorism according to everyone else.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Video shows Israeli extremists assaulting Palestinians in their West Bank homes
https://www.timesofisrael.com/video-shows-israeli-extremists-assaulting-palestinians-in-their-west-bank-homes/

[yagotme]

234. I agree. These "settlers" should be sent/brought back into Israel. nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

12. Genocide looks like a lot of different things. This representation is certainly a devastating one.

[Richard D]

20. It should be recognized that . . .

. . . Gaza started a war. They either didn't expect Israel to enter that war, or they wanted Israel to enter the war.
They don't like what has happened since Israel fought back against their cowardly terrorist attacks and kidnappings.
So they shout genocide and show lots of pictures of dead children to make the world hate Israel.
And give lots of fake statistics and phony photos to encourage Jew hate.
I could get into our failed educational system, but it's obvious.
So they use the word genocide and ethnic cleansing and apartheid, even though what is happening there has nothing to do with any of those.
It's war, not genocide. If they didn't want civilian losses, they would not have started the war.
If they didn't want civilian losses to get worse, they could have ended the war.
They want the civilian losses. It's good PR.
They are experts at propaganda. That is the aspect of the war that Israel is definitely losing,
There are antisemitic tropes being spread in this thread, carefully hidden but obvious.
Perhaps the people spreading these tropes know that they are doing so. Perhaps they don't.
It's still damaging.
There is utterly and totally no comparison between what the Nazis did and what Israel is doing,
The Jews of Eastern Europe were never aggressors, nor did they start any wars.
If Hamas unconditionally returned the hostages and laid down their arms, and entered peace negotiations, the war would end.
If Israel unconditionally laid down their arms, they would be destroyed.
This is truly a defensive war for Israel.
If Hamas is allowed to continue, Oct 7 will just be the beginning step of their goal to eliminate all Jews.
Those are Hama's words. They do not want peace.
If they wanted peace, there would be peace right now.

[TeamProg]

55. The war began long before Oct 7th. There was no actual cease-fire in place before Oct. 7. Hundreds of

Palestinians were killed in the West Bank in 2023 before Oct 7th..

[Richard D]

66. Forgive me for asking . . .

. . . are you justifying the terror attack of October 7?

[TeamProg]

70. Not at all. I am saying that the attack on Israeli citizens at the music festival did not come under an actual cease-

fire as so many claim.

[Richard D]

81. I do understand that perspetive . . .

. . . however, many disagree, including (should be President) Hilary Clinton:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hillary-clinton-there-was-a-ceasefire-on-october-6-hamas-chose-to-break-it/

[TeamProg]

89. Invading "settlers" did not adhere to the same 'cease-fire' that HRC is referring.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

92. One was a government-sponsored terrorist operation. The other was independent Jews. Easy distinction. n/t

[TeamProg]

96. Exactly, there was no cease-fire. That has been a lie since Oct. 7th.

[Voltaire2]

106. The very term 'settler' evokes colonial genocide

and the Israeli governments subsidize those settlers and deliberately ignores their violence against people and their theft of land.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

111. Not to those who know any remedial level of history or the English language. n/t

[mcar]

183. And Israelis were murdered in Hamas terror attacks

for decades.

[iemanja]

207. Yes, they have been

From 2000-2014, approximately 1,1001 Israelis died as a result of the Israeli-Palestine conflict. That includes soldiers and civilians. Not all of those deaths are directly attributable to Hamas, but one can imagine they played a significant role.
In that same period, there were 7,065 conflict-related deaths of Palestinians. https://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths.

That number is even more staggering when you consider that there are about twice as many Israelis as there are Palestinians. This means, very roughly, that a Palestinian person has been 15 times more likely to be killed by the conflict than an Israeli person. Of course the conflict impacts Palestinians and Israelis far beyond just conflict deaths, but these statistics help show how utterly disproportionate the conflict has become in its toll.

The disparity has widened dramatically over time. Since January 2005, when the conflict began to change dramatically, it has killed 4,006 people, of whom 168 have been Israeli and 3,838 Palestinian. That means that, since January 2005, only four percent of those killed have been Israeli, and 96 percent Palestinian. Since January 2005, in other words, the conflict has killed 23 Palestinians for every one Israeli it claims.

Still, even though Israelis are killed at a far lower rate than are Palestinians, that does not make Israeli deaths any less real or traumatic. Here are just the Israelis killed in the conflict:

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths

And, as many people seem to need reminding, even those some of those people are Muslim, that doesn't many Palestinian deaths any less real or traumatic.

The numbers continue to be lopsided in the current conflict, as you well know.

If people--Palestinians, Israelis, Americans-- could consider the humanity of all of those killed, we'd be a lot closer to peace.

[TBF]

138. Not to mention Hezbollah and Iran ...

whenever things start to quiet down and look like there might be peace, they start aiming their rockets at Israel again.

I don't like Netanyahu's indiscriminate killing, but I also don't like that Israel and the US are definitely hated by certain countries in the region & peace is not on their minds.

[Andy Canuck]

21. Genocide looks like

Genocide looks like many things. Genocide can be hyper-organized like the Nazis or chaotic like Rwanda. There is no “picture” of genocide, it is the intentional killing of a group of defined people, not the way they are killed.

[Sky Jewels]

23. The self-centeredness of this post is breathtaking.

Your message: Only the tragedies that affect your family are real and count. Those other people who get slaughtered by the genocidal Netanyahu regime? Who cares about them? They’re not real victims of genocide because they’re not Jewish and it’s not German Nazis murdering them en masse.

[PCIntern]

28. No

It shows you what organized genocide truly is, not what you want it to be.

[asm128]

41. No

Yours is not the only definition of genocide. It might be that only one that matters to you, as you have made your feelings towards Palestinians incredibly clear.

[Beastly Boy]

146. There is only one definition of genocide. And it is not yours or mine, or anyone else's.

And those who are unfamiliar with it run the risk of bastardizing the term beyond recognition.

[TeamProg]

69. Israel and the IDF were ROUNDING UP Gazans by bombing out their homes and businesses. Then Gazans were forced to Rafah

as a "safe area" and then bombed again. Hhmmm.

We all know the saying, 'if it walks like a duck..'

[mcar]

185. I honestly cannot believe the gaslighting

in way too many of these responses.

[onecaliberal]

107. They ARE victims of genocide. Period.

[Skittles]

197. it's part of the sickness

US VS THEM!!!!

[oldsoftie]

218. The mental gymnastics to avoid blaming Hamas is also breathtaking.

Where were the rescued hostages being held? Right in the middle of a civilian building.
Just like where rockets are fired into Israel from
Just like where Hamas leasders live

[claudette]

26. There are lots of

other pictures of horrible genocide. They don’t diminish the genocide you cite. They add to the horror of how some humans treat others.

[mjvpi]

128. Thank you.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

131. Basic decent truth

[bpj62]

42. Someone doesn't like this post

I don't understand why someone would place an alert on this post. It shows a picture of an actual event in history which has been well documented to be an act of genocide.

[Sky Jewels]

44. Its because the intention of the post is to undermine the gravity and legitimacy of other genocides.

According to this post, there's only one genocide that counts, and that's the one that happened in WWII. No other genocides matter. Tens of thousands of Palestinians being wiped out is not important because they're not Jewish and it's not German Nazis killing them.

(BTW, I'm not the one who alerted.)

[PCIntern]

130. No

It’s because what is occurring in Gaza is not Genocide.

[Sky Jewels]

223. Just because this particular genocide is not convenient for your agenda does not mean it's not genocide.

"According to Article 2 of the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

It's genocide. Full stop.

Israel, a country born in the wake of genocide against its people, has become the one that is inflicting genocide.

Sickening.

[yagotme]

229. Per the definition you posted, Hamas is guilty of genocide.

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,

Hamas charter. Check.

killing members of the group

Check. Oct 7.

causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

Check. Oct 7.

deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

Check. Constant rocket attacks.

[Passages]

235. Israel 'undoubtedly' committing genocide says Holocaust scholar Amos Goldberg

A professor of Holocaust history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, Amos Goldberg, has said that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

In an opinion piece published by The Palestine Project, he argued that the scale of killing and destruction inflicted by Israel on Gaza, constitutes a “deliberate crushing of Palestinian existence in Gaza”.

“It’s so difficult and painful to admit it, but despite all that… we can no longer avoid this conclusion. Jewish history will be henceforth stained,” Goldberg said.

The professor argued that what is happening in Gaza does not need to resemble the Holocaust in order to qualify as a genocide, saying that although each genocide is different, they are all motivated by “an authentic sense of self defence”.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-undoubtedly-committing-genocide-holocaust-scholar-amos-goldberg

[obamanut2012]

243. Except it is

[AnrothElf]

171. Wow you beat the hell outta that strawman!

[cab67]

43. I think the Israeli government and IDF are going way too far in their response to Hamas' attack.

That said, I would never use the term "genocide" in this context. Way too many innocent civilians are being murdered, and way too many are being displaced, but this results from a willingness to accept collateral damage on the part of the IDF. In my view, a lot of this damage could have been avoided, and civilian deaths are excessive. (I'm aware of the argument that Hamas is using civilians as human shields. There's a difference between melting away into the population, as members of terrorist organizations usually do, and making a strategic decision to put civilians in harm's way, which is what militaries do.

Although too many Israelis would like to see the entire Palestinian Arab population of Gaza moved and resettled (and no, I am NOT saying this is the mainstream view within Israel), I don't think there's an effort to deliberately exterminate these people.

[TheKentuckian]

54. There is no "not thinking" about it.

The entire eight month toll could easily be accomplished any day before supper time with anything resembling such intent.

[cab67]

108. Actually, thinking is involved here.

The number of those killed, wounded, or left homeless is high enough that some people might start using the g-word. Or if not the g-word, then the EC words. I'm not one of them.

There actually are Israelis who want to see Palestinian Arabs expelled from Gaza and the West Bank. It's a minority, but it's a vocal one over there.

[AloeVera]

137. It's not a minority, sadly.

This poll is 9 years old. It's likely worse now.

The survey makes no distinction between Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank and citizens of Israel in its question about whether Arabs should be expelled from Israel. And yet, 48% of Jewish Israelis said they were in favor, 46% were opposed, and 6% said they didn’t know.

Much more at link.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/amp/

Here is an excellent article on that, from Jewish Currents, titled
Could Israel Carry Out Another Nakba?
Expulsionist sentiment is common in Israeli society and politics. To ignore the warning signs is to abdicate responsibility.

https://jewishcurrents.org/could-israel-carry-out-another-nakba

[Richard D]

147. Intifadas . . .

. . . suicide bombings, near constant rocket attacks, and a lot of etc's will do that.

When have Palestinians who live on the West Bank or Gaza ever asked for peace? The 32nd of Neverember?

[AloeVera]

158. Ethnic cleansing, the Nakba...

It all goes back to that original sin - denied ever since - then occupation, dispossession, confiscation, imprisonment etc etc will do that.

The beginning must be addressed. Then the occupation. Why would the occupied ask for peace when they don't even have freedom or recognition of their past and losses?

And when have the Israelis ever done that?

[Richard D]

160. I see . . .

. . . and that makes Oct 7 acceptable for you?

[cab67]

162. Nothing makes October 7 acceptable to me.

One can go back to before the Balfour Doctrine to see how complicated this whole thing is.

Israel, though does face an existential decision should it annex Gaza and the West Bank (beyond the Jewish settlements).

Within the 1967 borders (which is what the UN recognizes), Israel is around 80 percent Jewish. That means Israel can be a democracy and a Jewish state.

It would be much closer to 50 percent if the current populations of Gaza and the West Bank are included. At that point, Israel could be a Jewish state, or it could be a democracy. It couldn't be both.

Unless, of course, the Palestinian Arab populations of these regions are expelled. This would be the very definition of ethnic cleansing, and most Israelis I know would not support that.

I'm not going to pretend to know what the solution is, but some sort of coexistence of populations - not necessarily under current leadership - will have to be part of it.

[Richard D]

163. Other than the ultra-right wing minority

I don't think annexing the strip or the bank is anyone's goal. Though if I lived in Israel and had family and loved ones tortured, raped, murdered, and/or kidnapped, I might want that. But I've not heard any Israelis express that desire at all. Most of them just want to live in harmonious peace so they can do what Jews do best: Invent cool things, restore the land, sing, pray, dance, and make babies. And eat, of course, especially hummus.

[cab67]

169. I actually have heard Israelis say this.

I've worked in Jerusalem from time to time. It's absolutely a minority view, but its supporters are often strident about it. Last time I heard it spoken, it was from an American-born member of the Knesset from some ultra-right party or other. (This was on TV.).

Have to say - I've eaten well during my visits there.

[Richard D]

178. It's a complex place . . .

. . . sort of like here, on a smaller level. Lots of opinions there. If you want seven opinions about something ask 3 Jews, ya know.

[cab67]

242. I've learned this.

My wife is Jewish. Her family is lovely (which is good, as most of my family is deceased), but I'm occasionally struck by unexpected differences in the way she and I were raised. I attended Temple Beth Goyim as a kid (gave up Catholicism for Lent several years ago, and it kinda stuck), but believe it or not, the adjustment to a combined household was harder for her than for me.

It also means I'm exposed to a wide range of views on the Israel-Gaza situation. It may have expanded my understanding, but it's confounded my capacity for drawing firm conclusions.

[AloeVera]

166. It made it inevitable.

It's a simple fact of how occupation and oppression works and where it leads. As sure as the current "war" is going to explode Hamas membership. Watch what happens to those small children who watched their families get blown up.

It's a cycle of insanity on both sides. Who is going to break it?

[Richard D]

195. Who is not the question I have . . .

. . . it is how. No one seems to have the slightest idea. As long as Gaza attacks Israel, Israel has to do what it can to wipe Hamas out.

But, think about this. We royally fucked up Japan and Germany in WWII. Yet now we are best buddies. What is it that is stopping Gaza from doing the same? Certainly the results of WWII on the civilian populations of those two countries was horrific. Yet they changed. What is the reason Gaza seems unable to do so as well?

[AloeVera]

281. No one has the slightest idea?

Then perhaps someone should talk to Palestinians. You know, peace talks. I know, "no partner for peace". There will be now, once Hamas is gone, right?

I don't see your anology as relevant to Gaza. Those nations were the aggressors, and were also nation-states with a wealth of resources.Their occupation by Allied Forces lasted a little over a decade at most (Japan), not 57 years. They were both helped a lot by the Allies with reconstruction, their economy and reintegration into the world. The Marshall Plan made all the difference in their "rehabilitation".

The Palestinians lost the majority of their lands to Israel, were expelled, then suffered occupation for 57 years. No restitution, no return, no Marshall Plan. Just misery, blockade or never-ending military rule that deprives them of basic human rights and self-determination. No, they are not going to become best buddies with Israel. But they might be willing to accept peace for land (that it's their own land is the kick in the teeth for them) and forego some or all demands for right of return.

[Beastly Boy]

294. The Palestinians, once they figure out who represents them, are better off taking cues from Anwar Sadat

rather than Yassir Arafat or Amin al-Husseini.

Sadat got his land (nearly two thirds of the total territories under Israel's control at the time) for peace, from Menachem Begin no less. Arafat and Husseini didn't. A valuable historical lesson to anyone who is sincerely interested in Palestinians ever having their own state.

[lapucelle]

299. Sorry, but the analogy is relevant to Gaza.

To begin with there is no Israeli military rule in Gaza. The people of Gaza elected their government in 2007. Gazans wear the yoke of the elected theocratic autocrats who subjugated them: Hamas. Israel does not deprive Gazans of "basic human rights and self-determination". Hamas does.

Secondly, Gaza and the West Bank have received more than $40,000,000,000 in foreign aid since 1993.

Thirdly, as long as UNRWA continues milking the cash cow that the perpetual, inherited "refugee" status of Palestinians affords them, Palestinian reintegration into the world is all but impossible. For example, L.A. born multimillionaire supermodel Gigi Hadid inherited her "Palestinian refugee" status from her father. "Refugee status" is a self-perpetuated state by design.

The very fact that you claim that Palestinians might accept peace for land is extremely telling. Palestinians have been offered their own state multiple times since 1947. They always say "no" because they do not want "land", and they do not want peace. They want the elimination of Israel.

And that is not going to happen.

[claudette]

180. Nothing makes

Oct 7 acceptable! - Ever. And Oct. 7 does not make the genocide in Gaza acceptable.

[Richard D]

272. The truth about "The Nakba"

It's a lot more complex than "bad Jews!!!"

[TeamProg]

45. Horrible, inhumane, cruel, insane, pure hate, criminal, bigoted and unjust. Let's not let it happen again. nt

[Hellbound Hellhound]

46. Agreed. Exterminate Hamas now and forever. You and that other one are on a roll! Finally on the right side. n/t

[obamanut2012]

244. How does Israel exterminate Hamas?

[Hellbound Hellhound]

246. With every available and legal weapon, intelligence source and means, with extreme prejudice. n/t

[Tetrachloride]

53. I can only imagine what my father (WW 2 and Korean War veteran) would say.

[Hieronymus Phact]

60. for some reason...

Humans have a need to take something that's horribly bad enough on its own,
...and try to make it sound worse.

[sarisataka]

71. This seems to upset people

But not for the reason one would expect. I would elaborate but...
Besides, what I would say us already known.

Condolences on the losses your family suffered.

[SocialDemocrat61]

86. This is one image of genocide

and a horrifying one. But there are many images of genocide. We should honor them all and pledge to end all genocide against all people.

[Arne]

87. Blame this whole mess on the bible.

The old part.
When will the next worldwide flood be here?

[malaise]

145. Blame it on all religion and the view that any one religion race or ethnicity

is superior to another. With enough brainwashing we’re all capable of profound evil.

[Mossfern]

254. +1

Agree, but....
All religion is not hate or chauvinism- many people find peace and solace in their beliefs and engage in acts of lovingkindness and charity, striving for that peace for everyone.

[shrike3]

274. Blame it on human beings.

Who do not have to brainwashed to be evil.

[malaise]

280. You may well be correct

But religion sure brainwashes people

[shrike3]

284. Perhaps. But we are a violent species. Blame it on our genes?

I sure wish someone would come up with a way to fix things before we completely destroy the planet.

[LexVegas]

88. Hamas propaganda has made the term "genocide" almost meaningless. nt

[Sky Jewels]

312. I'm sure that will be great comfort to the remaining family members of

the tens and tens of thousands of innocents Israel has ruthlessly slaughtered or maimed.

[Marcus IM]

90. Now, one of the most popular appliance brands is Krups.

Krups is one of the manufacturers of the gas ovens used to incinerate victims at Nazi death camps. I see their coffee makers and professional kitchen ovens everywhere.
One of the largest dental tools and laboratory machines manufacturer, Kaltenbach & Voight GmbH (KaVo) , used by dentists and labs worldwide, also made gas ovens and ventilation systems used in Nazi death camps.

My parents refused to sit in VW's, BMW's, Mercedes Benz's because they were supporting the Nazis.
I didn't tell them that US car manufacturers did have factories in Nazi Germany also, otherwise they wouldn't have driven anywhere.

They found it bewildering that the largest Nazi supporting automobile and other German companies had been mainstreamed here in the US, and support Republicans and red state "right to work" assembly plants (their only non union shops in the world).

My Jewish parents fled to the US in 1955 after their first born was murdered by the Cuban regime.

Being immigrant Cuban Jews was not an easy life for them, especially in the 1950's and 60's.

The OP picture makes my gut tense and I feel anger rise at the familial losses.

I think of Qwackanon's "the Jews will not replace us" mantra and freak out at how unsurprising it is here (in the US), just as I found the anti Islamic mantras here also.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

93. Be careful. Being openly genocidal against Jews is considered being a freedom fighter akin to Mandela to some. n/t

[Marcus IM]

97. And Mandela is a terrorist to others.

He was on America's terra list for ages after his release.

And he is reviled by the permanently aggrieved - but beloved by both Rs and Ds - right wing Cuban "exile" community.

[revmclaren]

102. See post # 101

[liberalhistorian]

103. The unprecedented horror

and evil of the Holocaust, and the pure evil of October 7, does NOT negate the horror of what innocent Palestinians, especially women and children, have and are enduring. Many Palestinians in this country have lost HUNDREDS of family members, whole entire families simply wiped out. And they feel like no one gives a shit, and they're right. They seem to care even less at the horrendous humanitarian crisis indiscriminately unfolding.

This is the most extreme right-wing Israeli government ever, and their party platform has long-included "cleanse the vermin", meaning Palestinians. Gee, I wonder just where have we heard that kind of language before?

One massacre does not justify another! I can be horrified at both October 7 and the too-often-indiscrimiminate killings in response. It's not either-or, one does not exclude the other. No, it doesn't fit the legal definition of genocide. But that doesn't mean that Palestinian lives don't matter as much as Israeli lives. Too many here seem to think they don't matter at all.

[Initech]

119. We can never allow this again. Fuck nazis, fascists and white supremacist scumbags.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

120. Thank you for posting this

[Martin Eden]

127. Genocide, no. Ethnic cleansing, maybe.

It's no secret Israel's hard right rejects a two state solution. Netanyahu and his ilk intend for Israel to encompass all the land. They're playing the long game, whether it takes decades or centuries.

A sizeable Palestinian population with the demographic possibility of becoming a majority is incompatible with their vision of the Jewish state. Not unless Palestinians are less than full citizens, but apartheid is not sustainable.

I very much doubt the Netanyahu government is concerned about civilian mortality and suffering in Gaza. They're concerned about Israel's relationship with the United States to keep the aid flowing, and they're pushing the limits on that.

In any event, in the future state of Greater Israel there is no place for a sizeable Palestinian population with any political power or hope to turn the tables "from the river to the sea."

[Model35mech]

132. Thousands of rings is not a required bit of evidence for genocide

What -is- required is large proportions of a population to die and died while politicians talked about why the dying happened in terms of an existential ending which may use somewhat PR treated comments such as

"we're doing what we must to bring this problem to a permanent close".

[TheKentuckian]

306. Okay, when did that happen? Proportions is not a number you or anyone considers too high

It is a portion or a percentage.

No, a large percentage of the Gazan much less the total Palestinian population has not been a casualty by any possible count much less those killed and even less so when the operatives that desperately need to be wiped out are subtracted (though they seldom are and are just counted as "innocent civilians" in a breathless and utterly shameless lie).

What toll there is is very significantly magnified by the terrorist being embedded in the civilian population and often by the "civilian" population acting as human shields both willingly and by force or coercion or even as we saw during the rescue some effectively acting as reservists to be called up in a heartbeat's notice to both opening their homes to act as prison camps as well as taking up arms to keep or kill hostages and their rescuers.

Hamas needs to accept the more than way too generous ceasefire terms and really need to unconditionally surrender as a defeated aggressor is required to in order to end hostilities, the rest is a bunch of foolishness that rewards and emboldens this backwash.

[Model35mech]

315. If you read what I wrote you will realize you are trying to place what I wrote

on current events that I made no attempt to do.

[yagotme]

307. I hope you realize that thousands of rings only represents the MARRIED deaths.

The single adults and children don't have wedding rings, therefore, the OP photo only represents a percentage of the people killed during that time frame.

[Model35mech]

314. I'm not denying that the Holocaust was a real genocide

I'm not denying that the picture of rings is real.

What I'm saying that the presence of jewelry hoarded by the killers and later recovered, isn't required for genocide to be real.
And the converse, no presence of thousands of rings or other jewelry, doesn't mean there is no genocide.

I'm not sure if the Armenian genocide resulted in jewelry hoards stolen from the dead. Likewise I am not sure if the Laotian genocide (Killing Fields) of political opponents created such hoards.

All genocides as intentional government policy are horrendous acts. One could say uniquely horrendous as no 2 genocides are operationally the same.

[Nanjeanne]

133. As the writer, Adam Shatz said in London Review of Books

"The belief that the best way of honouring the memory of those who died in Auschwitz is to condone the mass killing of Palestinians so that Israeli Jews can feel safe again is one of the great moral perversions of our time."

This Jew who lost family in the Holocaust agrees.

[andym]

140. The cost of modern warfare is increased civilian deaths. How many are acceptable? How many needed for genocide?

Many including myself would say not one non-combatant should be harmed. But modern wars are by nature destructive to non-combatants. This website explores The Costs of War https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/

How does the Gaza war compare? 36000 reported deaths by Hamas Health at the moment. 10,000 Hamas fighters were reported dead by IDF when total Gazan deaths was 30000 at the end of February, that would imply a 1:2 ratio of combatants to non-combatants. Both numbers are controversial. How does this compare the past wars in the last 25 years:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68387864

Here is some data from previous wars:



The ratio of combatants to non-combatants in the Gaza war seems most similar to the Iraq War.

However, indirect deaths in modern wars which afflict mostly civilians are far greater and described in this research report:
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2023/Indirect%20Deaths.pdf and here:
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2023/Indirect%20Deaths%20Executive%20Summary-2.pdf
Bottom line is that ~4 indirect deaths are associated with every 1 direct death.

Is genocide only a numbers determination, and does it also require intent? Does this intent require that the goal is the complete elimination of an entire group of people? Many would state that the intent to eliminate a group of people is required, as was the intention of the Nazis in the Holocaust. Were any of these past modern conflicts genocidal?

The bottom line is that war should be avoided at all costs. But what happens when one group attacks another? In the Gaza War, Hamas intentionally provoked Israel by attacking civilians and kidnapping some of them because they wanted a war to draw attention to their cause. They have succeeded and retain the hostages as negotiating chips, but the hostages motivate Israel to continue fighting. Not only that, but the casualties of this war are likely to further polarize support for extreme anti-Israel sentiment among the Palestinians. When peace or a ceasefire is finally achieved it will be difficult to see how further hostilities can be avoided. The creation of a much delayed Palestinian state may help, but problems remain on the horizon especially if Hamas or a successor organization participates and if Israel continues to promote settlement of the West Bank, but with such enmity, this region of the world is likely to be a hot spot of trouble going forwards leading to the deaths of more civilians throughout the region.

[surfered]

149. You didn't mention the collection of gold dental fillings, caps, and dentures extracted from victims' mouths...

...of Aktion T4 and the Nazi concentration camps was a feature of the Holocaust.

The practice originated with a 1940 order from Heinrich Himmler, and reinforced by a second order in 1942.[1] The collection was done with the active and voluntary cooperation of German dentists.

Collected gold was then melted down into gold bars. The disposition of the gold was an issue following the end of the war.

I'm not tech savvy enough to post the photographs.

[PCIntern]

152. Agreed...

I thought one photo for illustrative purposes was sufficient but you’re absolutely correct.

[surfered]

155. Not a criticism of your good post, just more evidence of the horrible, horrible cruelty

There are photos but I don’t know how to post them

[PCIntern]

159. Take a screenshot and save it. Go to .

Postimages.org and upload from your photo library. The click Direct link and then paste onto your post. Click preview to make sure it worked!

[surfered]

192. Thank you

[Hekate]

153. My father in law's first wife. My mother in law's parents and sister. On edit after reading the thread...

Some people are incredibly ignorant, callous, and just hate Jews no matter what. Facts don’t matter.

Who bombed the music festival — who cut women’s bodies apart — who raped young and old alike — none of it matters. Who chose to intermingle armed terrorists in an urban population in utter disregard of their own people — definitely the fault of the people who got attacked on 10/7.

If the Jewish people of Israel sat in the street and allowed themselves to be slaughtered without responding, it would apparently still be their own fault for holding up traffic.

Jesus Christ on a Trailer Hitch, my fellow Dems. Who are you? Facts matter. The meaning of words matters.

[madaboutharry]

193. Hekate,

Have you read the book People Love Dead Jews by Dara Horn? I highly recommend it. It is an excellent book.

[Hekate]

194. Have not, but will put it in my list. The precis at Amazon looks excellent.

Thanks.

[Behind the Aegis]

200. Be warned, it is a real page turner.

I have recommended it to several people, and all of them (I heard from) had a hard time putting it down. I tore through it in two days! So, carve out some serious time, because you may have a hard time putting it down! May I also suggest, "Jews Don't Count" by Dave Baddiel. It focuses, mainly, on the UK (he is a Jewish comedian from the UK), but what he discusses is universal. It is also on Amazon and Audible.

[Hekate]

202. My husband recently read Noah Feldman's ...

….To Be a Jew Today, which apparently gave him a lot to think about. Eventually I’ll dig into that as well. Probably after I buy him a copy as a gift, tho as a general rule what he wants for gifts are books on Buddhism.

I love my family, but it can be complicated. We are the only couple that engages with philosophy and religion at all, and our path has been meandering to say the least. It’s a good thing we have each other.

[Behind the Aegis]

208. I'll have to check that one out (just added it to my wish list)!

I would also like to suggest: Uncomfortable Conversations with a Jew by Emmanuel Acho, Noa Tishby. Emmanuel Acho also has another book from a couple years back, Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man, which is also a really good book, and not very long.

I read A LOT! I also read a wide variety of things. My husband doesn't read like me, but he listens to me as I talk about what I have read...at least I think he does. He is deaf in one ear and sometimes I think he turns that ear to me while I talk. Given how much I talk, I can't say it is all that surprising. LOL!

[Hekate]

210. Our side-conversation is making me glad I didn't give up on this thread

[Buttoneer]

172. Netanyahu is a war criminal. Period.

[tornado34jh]

199. His government is a big reason for this mess, I don't care what anyone here says

I highly doubt hundreds of thousands of people in Israel would be protesting against this government for no reason.

[TheKentuckian]

295. The reasons though only in part to what you would imply

He was being protested quite intensely well before these events for unrelated criminality and power grabbing which hasn't and isn't going away.

[mcar]

176. Kicking this for truth

[Patton French]

177. The callous responses.

Just wow.

[SunSeeker]

206. K & R

[Layzeebeaver]

213. So many posts, not so much deep thinking

The conflict in the middle "least" (1) started thousands of years ago and since the late 1940'a has become a flashpoint area.

There no longer a right or wrong, a left or right, or a winner or looser. It's become a forever war.

(1) I say that because It always seems that this area of the world gets the least real positive attention and support - rather its a space where conflict is kept at a slow boil...

[tornado34jh]

222. Try to refute this, you fools

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/genocide#:~:text=According%20to%20Article%202%20of,members%20of%20the%20group%3B%20causing

"According to Article 2 of the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Genocide does not have to include killing of ethnic groups, it can also just include causing conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part. Why do you fucking think the far-right settlers want to force out the Palestinians out of their lands? It's no different that what Azerbaijan did to Nagorno-Karabakh when they blockaded the Lachin Corridor for 9 months before eventually forcing the Armenians out of Nagorno Karabakh.

[yagotme]

232. See above post #229 nt

[tornado34jh]

289. I'm sorry, did the ICC not put arrest warrants for Hamas leaders or am I missing something?

Also, that humanitarian aid convoy that was attacked last month? That was not Hamas' doing, those were the far-right settlers. Are you too afraid to call out that? Again, Netanyahu has been PM three times, three fucking times. His largest stint was from 2009-2021. Are you telling me that he couldn't have eliminated Hamas during that time? What was he doing during that time? Answer that. Also, I believe that Netanyahu is an ungrateful bastard as far as I see it.

[yagotme]

300. Mid May, "seeking" warrants for Hamas and Israeli leaders.

"Seeking" is not getting, nor serving.

His largest stint was from 2009-2021. Are you telling me that he couldn't have eliminated Hamas during that time? What was he doing during that time? Answer that.

So, you think he should have attacked Gaza BEFORE they attacked Israel, just to get rid of Hamas? Hamas has a lot of support in Gaza, and the only way really, to remove them, is militarily. Is that what you would of wanted? You hate Netty now, if he attacked Gaza with no provocation, you would REALLY hate him. I don't care for him, I think he fell for Hamas' ploy, and he could have done a few things differently, but I'm not there. I'm in an armchair, thousands of miles away, second-guessing things, just like you.

[tornado34jh]

317. I highly doubt that all the members of Hamas, including their leaders, are in Palestine

Now I don't think Fatah, the other political party and Abbas are a whole lot better. Quite frankly, neither party is good as far as I see it. But again, barring a party that comes up and really changes the political landscape, there isn't a lot a whole lot that will change. The Fatah party was and likely still is rife with corruption and the like.

I still question what the Israeli government knew leading up to the attacks. I am not just going after Netanyahu, I am also going against his cabinet members. I feel like Netanyahu knows more than what he is letting on. I have my suspicions about if the Israeli government really is our ally. I would not be surprised if Netanyahu and his government supports Trump, especially with some of his cabinet members. Also, even if Hamas wasn't there and the Palestinians agreed to a two-state solution, the Likud party's ideology wouldn't allow that.

[yagotme]

319. Of course they're not.

It's been widely reported the upper level guys are in Qatar, living it up from all the aid money Gaza received. That's the main reason they've been mediators, as Hamas is right there in their country. The money that didn't go to weapons and digging tunnels anyway. Arresting them in Qatar presents it's own problems.

As far as Netty letting on about what he knows, that's par for every government on earth. Again, I'm just a JAFO, so what I think and say have absolutely zero effect on events in the ME.

As far as Likud and a 2-state solution, if they didn't abide by it, that would give us and other countries an iron-clad reason to stop aid/weapons sales to them.

[tornado34jh]

321. Which is why I think getting rid of Hamas is not going to be as easy as it seems

It's probably not just Qatar that a lot of the leaders are located. They could be in Bahrain, Oman, Iran, etc. Good luck trying to eliminate them. As for the Likud party, their ideology is Revisionist Zionism. It calls for territorial maximalism, or in a more better term, irredentism. So if a two-state solution were to be implemented, or in other words, if Palestine were to become a state, it would go completely counter to their ideology. That is why they are doing everything to prevent the two-state solution from occurring, even if Hamas was not in the picture.

[Happy Hoosier]

250. Which just applies to war in general. Fucking useless.

Congratulations.... the term "genocide" is now so generic that it loses actual impact.

The "you fools" is a nice, insulting touch though.

[tornado34jh]

292. So I guess then the Armenian Genocide, Holodomor, and others aren't called that by your definition

How often have we heard people mention things like cultural genocide? It's particularly gained traction during the Nagorno-Karabakh wars. Azerbaijan has demolished numerous Armenian buildings, yet I can't tell you how many times I heard during the course "cultural genocide". By the way, the Armenian Genocide was a big reason for why Hitler did what he did in the Holocaust. In his Obersalzburg Speech, a week before he invaded Poland, he was quoted to have said, "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" In other words, because we never saw it as a genocide, it continued unabated. Also, that one included Greeks, Assyrians and many others in addition to the Armenians. War is hell no matter which side you are on. Russia doesn't consider Ukraine as a separate country, in fact, they don't see them as separate ethnic group. There is a reason why Russia has spent years trying to oppress Ukrainian culture.

I am aware of what Hamas is, but I am also not stupid to not see what the ideology of the Likud party and Netanyahu is as well. I bet you most of the settlers supported him. I'm calling them out when others are too afraid to do so. They are probably some of the most corrupt people there. There have been articles about Netanyahu propping up Hamas so that Abbas, who currently governs the West Bank, wouldn't be able to form a State of Palestine. It's been posted on here in the past. Go look it up if you don't believe me.

[Buttoneer]

226. There are war crimes other than Genocide.

For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:
Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:
Wilful killing
Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments;
Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health;
Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;
Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power;
Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial;
Unlawful deportation or transfer or

unlawful confinement;
Taking of hostages.
Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;
Intentionally directing attacks against personnel, installations, material, units or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under the international law of armed conflict;
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and which are not military objectives;
Killing or wounding a combatant who, having laid down his arms or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
Making improper use of a flag of truce, of the flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy or of the United Nations, as well as of the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions, resulting in death or serious personal injury;
The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

[wryter2000]

255. True

Netflix’s new series on Hitler is worth watching. I didn’t realize that his fanatic desire to kill all Jews caused him to make stupid decisions.

[betsuni]

257. I'm watching it now, very good except I don't like the actor playing Hitler.

[JoseBalow]

318. Some of the victims' eyeglasses collected at one extermination camp

[maveric]

322. Best post of the year. Possibly ever.

Thank you PCIntern.