Hamas leader says 'we have the Israelis right where we want them' in leaked messages, WSJ reports

[sarisataka]

Hamas leader says ‘we have the Israelis right where we want them’ in leaked messages, WSJ reports

The military leader of Hamas, Yahya Sinwar, said that the Palestinian militant group has the upper hand over Israel in the war in Gaza, according to a report by the Wall Street Journal, citing leaked messages the newspaper said it had seen.

“We have the Israelis right where we want them,” Sinwar told Hamas’ political leadership in Qatar recently, according to one of the messages, the WSJ reported Monday. The date of the message isn’t clear but suggests that Sinwar is pressing for the war to continue.

The WSJ said it reviewed dozens of messages sent to ceasefire negotiators from Sinwar, who has been in hiding since the October 7 attack on Israel which sparked a devastating war on Gaza, killing more than 37,000 people in the enclave, according to Gaza health authorities, and leaving much of the strip destroyed.

The WSJ reported that in one message Sinwar said civilian deaths in previous conflicts were “necessary sacrifices,” citing past independence-related wars in places like Algeria.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11/middleeast/sinwar-hamas-israel-ceasefire-hostage-talks-intl/index.html

What is the over/under Hamas will find an excuse to reject the, now UNSC backed, ceasefire proposal?

[multigraincracker]

1. Not buying propaganda from either

side. Truth is always the first victim of war.

[PCIntern]

2. So you equate Hamas with Israel?

Terrifying.

[sboatcar]

3. I think neither are telling the full truth in this situation

[jimfields33]

5. Israel is the victim. I'd always take the side of the victim

Unless we find evidence they didn’t tell the truth on October 7th. I guarantee we will keep finding evidence that October 7th occurred. Israel is telling the truth!!!!!!!!! Everyone should stop questioning that or doubting it.

[obamanut2012]

7. Gaza is also a victim

[multigraincracker]

12. Exactly.

Living under occupation for 70 years with fewer rights and privileges as the others. Why? Because the religious fanatics, equally on both sides
Time to let the Secular Muslims and Jews make a deal that’s equal to both sides. Yes Gazans that are crazy and put all of their effort into their version, orthodox version. Just as many Jews fit there too.
I worked in a Dearborn factory and had many Friends form the Middle East. Most were the nicest people you will ever find. They were at odds with others from the same area that sucked. Nothing is black and white, the real world is gray. Just as the there are all kinds of Jews. Liberal Secular vs crazy Orthodox ones that fight for their version of the scriptures.
Just me but how I see it.

[NickB79]

19. Hamas has victimized the people of Gaza as much as anyone

Theocratic authoritarians always do.

[Cosmocat]

27. Bingo

Hamas did what it did knowing full well Gaza was going to get burnt.

[sboatcar]

32. And Israel played into it exactly as they saw

I think the Hamas leadership wanted to become martyrs, and Israel was happy to oblige, unfortunately they took thousands of civilians down with them.


I blame both sides for it.

[The Magistrate]

36. That's An Odd Statement

If Hamas leaders wanted to be martyrs, they could achieve it with a cell-phone call alone in a field.

Those they place between themselves and soldiers coming to make them martyrs are the measure of just how little these men seek martyrdom for themselves.

And it is a fact that these men view the deaths of thousands of Gaza residents as their chief weapon against Israel. Their dispositions for battle are such that Israel cannot assail them without harming non-combatants. They cannot protect the people of Gaza from Israel, they do nothing of material benefit to the people of Gaza (in fact they steal from them routinely), all they can do is do their best to goad Israel into killing some of them. Israeli forbearance would not matter, the goading would continue till forbearance fled.

[sboatcar]

38. I agree, and it was a mistake for the people of gaza to elect them in the first place

From what I estimate, the Hamas leadership is hoping to create a wider war by sacrificing a lot of their own people, because they knew Israel would immediately go to war after Oct 7th, and that it would diminish any goodwill Israel had it the first place. They were correct on the first count, but the fact that this many months into the war, no other muslim nations have risen up against Israel shows that it was all for nought, and they have sacrificed the lives of thousands of their civilians for nothing.
The part that really sucks is how happy Israel was to oblige them and destroy huge swaths of Gaza, and destroy schools and hospitals and kill civilians that may or may not have been used as human shields. Both sides have a lot to gain from manipulating the news that gets out of there, and I feel like neither side is telling the full truth about what's going on.
It just pains me because it seems like the majority of the people uprooted or killed in this conflict were just people who wanted to live their lives and didn't have a conflict. That's the real tragedy here, those who died on Oct 7th and then the tens of thousands who died in the subsequent conflict that it caused. I see people constantly dehumanizing the people of Gaza and calling the deaths of all of these civilians just a cost of war. These are HUMAN BEINGS, the majority of whom don't want anything to do with the war, we need to start treating them like people instead of like pawns (and I mean across the board, Hamas, Israel, people discussing here).
We seem to be forgetting that we're talking about mostly civilians here, that they're real people with real lives and real families, and a real desire to not be killing in any kind of war that they didn't start and want nothing to do with. When I saw the news about Oct 7th, I had a sinking feeling that the end result of this would be tens of thousands of gazans being killed, because they're civilians, not soldiers. The real tragedy of it is that neither side seems to care, except for the political points it gets them one way or the other.

[The Magistrate]

42. We Would Seem In Substantial Agreement, Sir

It is a human tragedy.

War is.

It's one good reason sensible leaders do the best they can to avoid it. It may at times prove necessary, but that does not change what war is, and whoever initiates open war shoulders all which eventuates in it.


"They say war is an art but it's not. It mostly consists in outwitting people, stealing from widows and orphans, and inflicting suffering on the helpless for one's own ends, and that's not art: That's business."

[sboatcar]

44. That's the real tragedy here

Just because someone wants to start a war with you doesn't mean that you should actually start the war.


What would be the correct response to Oct 7th? I don't know, but I also feel like the people of Gaza don't deserve to suffer because of it.

[The Magistrate]

46. Unfortunately, That Falls Short

Of course the people in Gaza do not deserve to be caught between two ruthless armed forces.

They are not being killed because they deserve it.

They are being killed because they are in the way.

We both know who wants them in the way of incoming fire.

I do not think it dehumanizes anyone to recognize this. It is fact, just as their humanity and their sufferings are.

[sboatcar]

49. No one is calling for it to stop though

At least not from what I'm seeing here. I guess I'm just against wars in general, and I think that there's always a solution that doesn't involve getting a bunch of people killed unnecessarily .

[TheKentuckian]

64. The attack started the war. What in the world are you speaking to?

[sboatcar]

50. I just wish the leaders in Gaza weren't so keen to sacrifice their people

and the leaders in Israel weren't so keen to oblige.

[brush]

79. Come on. There hasn't been an election inn15 years. The Gazans didn't elect Hamas to attack on Oct. 7

And Israel secular community sure didn't think the extreme right Netanyahu/Likud admin would not beef up border security after being warned by several sources that something big was coming...then when it came, Netanyahu/Likud didn't deploy the IDF for several hours, which allow the Oct. 7 attack to go on and on without being driven back.

And since then Gaza is just about flattened and 30 thousand plus are dead.

Blame goes on both Netanyahu/Likud and Hamas.

[SunSeeker]

87. Are you actually suggesting that just because there hasn't been an election in 15 years, Gazans don't support Hamas?

Because that would be dead wrong.

Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas was correct. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

According to a March 2024 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, 59% of Palestinians think Hamas should rule Gaza, and 70 percent were satisfied with the role Hamas has played during the war. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/#:~:text=Fifty%2Dnine%20percent%20of%20all,has%20played%20during%20the%20war.

Sadly, what those recent polls make clear is that 70% of Gazans approve of Hamas using them as human shields.

[brush]

88. Like the Gazans have a choice tothrow off Hamas rule. What about Israel, does it have a choice to throw off warmonger...

Last edited Thu Jun 13, 2024, 10:19 AM - Edit history (1)

netanyahu who failed to protect it...his so-called claim to fame?

[SunSeeker]

91. Do you really think Gazans don't support Hamas? Do you think the polls are wrong?

What is your evidentiary basis for that?

[brush]

92. I think the majority of Gazans just want to live in peace, like the majority of Isrealis.

Who wants to continually live in a war zone? No one. But protesting against Hamas in Gaza can sure get you killed.

No so protesting against the war in Israel, but warmonger Netanyahu stays in charge.

[SunSeeker]

93. Gazans were not asked to protest Hamas, they were anonymously asked if they support Hamas

If the majority preferred peace to fighting Israel, they wouldn't have voted for Hamas in the first place.

[brush]

94. My answer is the same. IMO you put too much faith in easily manipulated polls.

Gazans are not stupid. Anonymous or not, they're not going to go against Hamas in their answers in fear of being reported. Sorta like the East Germans before unification were afraid of the Stazi anonymous agents in their midst...could be their neighbor...reporting them to authorities.

Again, people just want to live in peace. Stop falling for the hype of polls.

[SunSeeker]

95. And yet they're willing to send their boys to die for Hamas and live among Hamas during war.

East Germans risked death to climb over barbed wire topped walls, and many died, to try to get away from the Stazi. The Palestinians are not doing that. They are not trying to climb walls to escape Hamas. They are not like East Germans.

The polls are one of many indications that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas, not the least of which is that they voted Hamas in to begin with. You offer absolutely no basis for claiming that the majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas.

[brush]

96. What are you talking about? There are 2.3 million Gazans. Hamas forces are maybe 30k.

You do the math...is that even a tenth of one percent? That's not what's called overwhelming support.

The uninformed disinformation coming from you is so obvious.

Just try being a bit impartial. You'll feel better and not so worked up into a ball of hate.

[SunSeeker]

98. WTF. We're talking about Hamas supporters, not Hamas forces.

You said in this subthread that the majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas. That is simply not true. I am not the one spreading "uninformed disinformation" here. I gave you the facts and cites that support my statement that the majority of Palestinians do support Hamas. You have yet to provide any for yours.

[brush]

101. Well math is certainly not your strong point. Like I said, 30k Hamas forces is maybe 1 percent...

Last edited Thu Jun 13, 2024, 10:28 PM - Edit history (1)

of the 2.3 million Palestinians.

Maybe 1 percent. A minimal amont. Got it?

At least get out your calculator before making inaccurate posts.

Stop the hate.

[SunSeeker]

103. My math is fine. Making a point is not your strong suit.

You do realize support comes in many forms other than as Hamas fighters, right? The doctor and "journalist" who held the Israeli hostages were not counted as part of Hamas forces, but they are obviously supporters of Hamas. Stop the hate indeed. And stop hiding from reality.

BTW, the United States 2023 population is estimated at 339,996,563 people. The US military has nearly 1.29 million active-duty troops. That's even less than half of the 1% you nonsensically claim is a gauge of support.

[brush]

105. Stop the hate. Most people want to live in peace...on both sides. Try it yourself.

[betsuni]

106. "Stop the hate. ... Try it yourself" What hate?

[brush]

107. Do you even recognize impartiality when it's right in your face?

Last edited Fri Jun 14, 2024, 08:12 AM - Edit history (1)

My posts to you have always expressed concern for innocents in Israel and Gaza.

Get a clue.

[ForgedCrank]

83. Israel is

not "playing" into anything, it's called defending your country and citizens. Hamas invaded their country and murdered and raped 1000 completely innocent people for the sole purpose of igniting hostilities and creating outrage. Israel will surely spin media to their advantage at times, but Hamas tells no truth, and they never have. Their most effective weapon is bullshit propaganda that they can count on certain people to fall for every damned time. Hiding behind school children and medical facilities no longer works.

[sboatcar]

31. So that justifies killing so many civilians?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[brush]

78. There are 30 some thousand dead in Gaza, 1200 in Israel. Way more victims in the collective punishment inGaza.

Netanyahu and Sinwar are both warmongers who want the war to go on...Netanyahu because he knows he'll be tried for corruption once the war is over.

[PCIntern]

8. I'll tell you something...you're right

Israel was not telling the full truth: they should have published the photos of the torture and mutilation of their citizens’ genitalia and the associated horrors. But they didn’t. They asked people to use their imagination because that is “civilized”. But that would have been telling the whole truth which you so cavalierly demand.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Well, you and I both know, it wouldn't have mattered.

There have been pics, documentation from the fucking Nazis, as well as Allied forces, and STILL people deny The Holocaust, when they aren't busy co-opting it to attack Israel or Jews.

[PCIntern]

23. Horrifyingly true.

[sboatcar]

33. I agree, and that was awful, but how many gazan civilians does that justify killing?

They're people too, and most of them had nothing to do with any of it. Why did they deserve to die?

[jimfields33]

51. Hamas uses Palestinians to shield them.

If not for that, no Palestinians would be killed. Hamas is evil and everyone should agree.

[enid602]

77. US

And Israel uses Uncle Sam as a shield. I can’t imagine them taking the approach they did in Gaza without having a shield.

[Beastly Boy]

84. What kind of shield does Uncle Sam make? Certainly not a human shield.

Your metaphor begs for quite a bit of explaining.

[enid602]

97. The best kind of shield

It would be naive to think Israel would have shown such a radical response to 10/7 without US backing. You have more options with the neighborhood bully backing you.

[The Magistrate]

100. And You Would Be Dead Wrong

The state of Israel was established so there would be at least one place on earth where Jews would not need to fear being killed because they were Jews. The state of Israel set out to vindicate its purpose after the atrocious spree of torture, rape, murder, and kidnapping by Hamas fanatics on October 7 last. It will wage war against Hamas in Gaza till Hamas can no longer function as a militant body in arms, or till a more powerful military force compels it to cease by force of arms. Whether you or I support this, or approve it or oppose it, won't mean a tinker's damn, and what diplomatic and economic pressures can be brought to bear will be just as futile.

[Beastly Boy]

102. Do you see no difference between an unwilling human shielding an agressor and a willing ally

arming an ally against aggression ?

Apples and pork bellies.

Imagine yourself playing both roles. Imagine a thug holding a knife to your neck and daring me to attack him vs you giving me a gun to defend myself against the thug's knife. In the first instance you are the unwilling victim and in the second instance you are a willing collaborator.

See the difference?

[enid602]

104. 'willing ally'

Willing ally? Captive one, more likely. We don’t act so much like allies. When is the last time Israel took our advice in this conflict? But then, we’re just paying the bill.

[Beastly Boy]

108. You must be joking.

How in the world can the US be considered a captive of Israel in any sense of the word?

Words have meanings. There is a reason people stick to them.

[enid602]

110. One word

One word. Albatross.

[Beastly Boy]

111. If this is the punchline, I prefer The Aristocrats jokes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aristocrats

[The Magistrate]

112. It's A Shame When A Good Python Fan Goes To The Bad, Eh?

The Dinsdale Bros is about my favorite of their sketches.

[enid602]

113. Albatross

From the "Rime of the Ancient Mariner,' as 99 of 100 people would recognize. Bye.

[Beastly Boy]

114. I know what an albatross refers to

And now you know what the Aristocrats refers to.

Have fun with that. Bye

[The Magistrate]

109. Oh, Do, Please, Go On About The U.S. Being Held Captive By Israel

I haven't read Buchan lately, and could do with a rousing tale of 'the hidden hand' of the Jew directing world affairs from the shadows....

[sboatcar]

40. So how many gazans does that justify killing?

I'm not justifying what Hamas did, but the entire reason for it was to make sure that Israel responded with such force that it would kill thousands of civilians and make them look bad on the world stage. Israel played right into their hands there, and from an outside perspective, it looks like Israel was happy to oblige them and level most of Gaza in response.
This endless spiral of escalation does nothing except score political points for the leaders on both sides, while average people suffer, on both sides. Violence begets violence until someone decides that enough is enough. Who is going to decide that enough is enough?

[Mosby]

70. Your question is a logical fallacy.

Called "false dilemma". That's why no one will bite.

[Mike Nelson]

4. Interesting...

... I wonder when the statement was made. If before the Biden/US-pressured deal presently possible, is the WSJ playing a part? Also, the statement could mean Hamas feels they have mo and will continue, or it could be a face-saving "we won."

[Beastly Boy]

6. The 36,000 civilian deaths reported by Hamas health agency will come back to bite Sinwar in the ass.

"These are necessary sacrifices". Sinwar is confessing his intent to commit genocide against the Palestinians.

[maxsolomon]

10. They probably won't.

I can't imagine a situation where Sinwar's held accountable beyond his inevitable assassination.

[Beastly Boy]

11. I am OK with posthumous condemnation. The sooner the better.

[FBaggins]

26. On the contrary

They are the victory that the headline refers to

If it could be twice as many, he would like that even better.

[Beastly Boy]

29. I am talking about international courts holding him responsible for the crime of genocide

against the Palestinians in Gaza.

He just confessed to his intent to do so and to causing the deaths. This, per ICC, is sufficient to bring charges against him.

[sboatcar]

34. Right? Who's more in the wrong here?

The ones who commit the genocide or the ones who made sure the genocide would be the end result?

[sboatcar]

43. If I'm not mistaken, Sinwar isn't the one killing thousands of civilians

And if Israel didn't want this to be a genocide, why were they so happy to oblige and kill so many Gazans?

There was no NEED to do it, but Sinwar knew that by conducting those attacks, Israel would respond with overwhelming force, with the goal (on Sinwar's part) of starting some kind of holy war. Again though, we're talking about killing tens of thousands of civilians as if they're not humans, as if every death of a noncombatant isn't a tragedy. When did we lose our humanity?

And yes, I know atrocities were committed on Oct 7th, and it was awful, but responding to violence with more violence just perpetuates the endless war there, and its mostly civilians who suffer because of it. Who is more guilty here, the ones who commit the the initial act, or the ones who respond with overwhelming force? We're forgetting the human cost of all this war, and both sides are more than willing to sacrifice the people of Gaza to further their own ends, and that's the really sad and upsetting part.

[Beastly Boy]

47. Sinwar confessed to his intent to cause all the civilian deaths and to cause them.

In the eyes of the law, this is what constitutes genocide. The fact that Sinwar figured out a way to make IDF an instrument for achieving his goal is immaterial, as far as the law is concerned, to Sinwar's culpability to commit the crime.

Think of a villain who throws a child in front of the speeding train and blames the conductor for the murder. I know, the parallels are not exactly identical, but the principle is.

[sboatcar]

48. Gotcha, if you ask someone to commit a crime, then the person who actually commits it isn't guilty?

I just can't get behind Israel being completely innocent here. No one forced them to bomb schools and hospitals.

[Beastly Boy]

55. No, you didn't get me.

It is the person who intends to commit a crime who is committing the crime, not the person who has no intention to commit the crime. The crime is indeed being committed, but the criminal responsibility falls on the person whose intention it was to commit it. This is the fundamental principle of law. This is the difference between premeditated murder and justifiable homicide.

[sboatcar]

57. I'm still not sure that killing civilians is justifiable homicide

I don't care which side they're on, using human lives as pawns is wrong. Wrong for Hamas, wrong for Israel. Everyone in the entire conflict is in the wrong.

[Beastly Boy]

58. Depends on the circumstances and the law, doesn't it?

That was my point. These things are not arbitrary, and when both the intent and the intended means to cause the deaths had been confessed to, it is difficult, if not impossible, to argue against the law.

[RandomNumbers]

75. Hamas has committed more than "the initial act".

Just to clear that up.

[TheKentuckian]

76. Your premise is an insane demand for impunity for

savage attacks.

Absorb heinous murders, mutilations, rapes, and hostage taking is at best a demand for suicide and at worst a brazen call for dead Jews on tap.

No nation has ever had any such expectation place upon it, it certainly is far afield from our own response to a proportionality far smaller attack from a much less proximate enemy who took no hostages nor performed heinous mutilations and rapes.

Suck it up and welcome more is the most sensationally over the top hypocritical absurdity ever that would never be even mentioned except in this specific case.

Get a clue, there isn't enough "stiff upper lip" on the planet to cover any such shit. It has never happened and never before been seriously hoped for much less somehow EXPECTED and then another wide gulf to this DEMAND.

Never ever is there any other serious or even magical security consideration (or even suggestion) for Israel other than just possibly placating the terrorists I guess up to and including mass suicide in order to come to terms.
The math seemingly is only acceptable if it ends up with more dead Jews, if even then considering the protests started before a single bomb was dropped.

If peace is the aim then don't start wars in savage fashion and if you do then it is your job to surrender not those you attacked.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

80. Wow!!!!!

GREAT POST.

[madaboutharry]

86. Thank you.

That was rather brilliant.

I very much like the point you made about dead Jews.. There seems to have arisen a cottage industry dedicated to bemoaning that not enough Israeli soldiers and civilians are dead. There is much consternation about the Iron Dome having shot down thousands of missiles, rockets, and drones rather than them landing on the heads of Jews making them dead!

[The Magistrate]

89. Hear Hear, Sir

[yardwork]

9. The Palestinians who agreed to coexist with Jewish people live in Israel.

The people living in Gaza today are the descendants of Muslim Arabs who sought to kill all Jewish people in the region and refused to live in peace with Jews.

Since 1948, they have had numerous opportunities to change their mind. They have not. Believe them when they say their goal is the extermination of all Jews. They mean it. Ignoring their words and actions and insisting that they mean something else is condescending.

[AloeVera]

13. Not so. They were expelled and "cleansed" or fled.

Largely due to violence/massacres, psychological warfare and collapse ofctheir society following attacks on their towns and villages by Zionist and then Israeli forces.

In the 1948 Palestine war more than 700000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – were expelled or fled from their homes, at first by Zionist paramilitaries,[a] and after the establishment of Israel, by its military.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The expulsion and flight was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba.[10][11][12] Dozens of massacres targeting Arabs were conducted by Israeli military forces and between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed. Village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning.[13][14] Other sites were subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names.[15]

The precise number of Palestinian refugees, many of whom settled in Palestinian refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute.[16] Around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of the Arab total population of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[17][18] About 250000–300000 Palestinians fled or were expelled during the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, before the termination of the British Mandate on May 14 1948. The desire to prevent the collapse of the Palestinians and to avoid more refugees were some of the reasons for the entry of the Arab League into the country, which began the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.[19][20]

The causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre,[21]: 239–240  which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the demoralizing impact of wealthier classes fleeing,[22] the typhoid epidemic in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning,[23] collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders,[24][25] and a disinclination to live under Jewish control.[26][27]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight

Lots more interesting stuff.

Avi Shlaim is the most "mainstream" of the New Historians, for those who want to delve into the perspective from the "other side" as presented by an Israeli historian.

The denial of the events of the Nakba is largely why the conflict has metastized in the region imo.

[yardwork]

15. Your source itself notes that there is disagreement about this.

This is an extraordinarily complex situation that doesn't lend itself to simplistic answers or accusations of "genocide" or "cleansing."

The fact is that Jews were already being exterminated in the Middle East in 1948, which was one of the reasons for establishing Israel in the first place.

The fact is that many Muslims live peacefully in Israel, citizens of a tiny nation that offers a democracy and human rights in a region that is otherwise noticeably devoid of either.

[AloeVera]

20. It's not that complex.

Yes, there are two sides. You presented one side and I the other, in response to your claim that the people in Gaza are descendants of those who just wanted to murder Jews.

The article is fairly balanced, that's why I used it.

The fact is that well over 200,000 Palestinians had already fled or were expelled prior to independence. Another 500,000 or so after. Violence and massacres instilling fear played a large part in that. Then they were not allowed to return and their lands and homes were confiscated by Israel. It's not that complex, really.

Yes, there were massacres by Arabs too. But they were the natives of the land defending against what they considered an invasion of people from Europe. As Ben-Gurion himself said,

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

“We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return.”
David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

Ben Gurion also said in 1948: “The old will die and the young will forget.”

He was rather optimistic on that last quote.

As for those who stayed and are now citizens of Israel, there is plenty of evidence they are second-class citizens who can be stripped of citizenship for "breach of loyalty" ( thus ensuring dissent is squashed), and suffer the knowledge that half of their fellow citizens want them to leave or be expelled.

[yardwork]

54. Tl;dr. You lost me at "natives of the region." Judaism predates Islam.

Jewish people have been living in the middle east for thousands of years, thousands of years before some of them converted to Islam.

"European invaders" is nonsense. It's an attempt to equate the history of the Middle East with American history. That is insulting, American-centric, and historically false.

And, there are many more than just two sides to this.

[AloeVera]

59. You see I knew that word might trigger you in that direction

Though I was hoping not. I don't understand why it's so hard to acknowledge that the people who were BORN in the land were the natives of the land in 1948. Not those who arrived mainly in the preceding 15 years.

The definition of native is belonging to a place by virtue of BIRTH. Not your ancestors 2000 years ago.

I don't have the right to claim the Ural Mountain region because my ancestors originated from there or that some of their descendants still live there.

Which religion came first should be irrelevant in any fair-minded conversation.

I won't be responding to you further. Your tldr said it all.

[yardwork]

61. What part of "there were lots of Jewish people born in Palestine in 1948" dint you understand?

Jewish people have been living in Palestine for thousands of years, continuously. They ARE "natives" of the region.

[AloeVera]

62. Where did you say that? You did not.

But let's pretend you did.

Over half a million Jews arrived from Europe between 1930 and 1948.

The last Ottoman census of 1915 showed 39,000 Jews and 600,000 Muslims and 80,000 Christians.

I would think that would seem like an invasion to the natives. Maybe even the Jewish natives, due to cultural differences.

I hope you made it this far.

[yardwork]

63. Why do you think 500,000 Jews felt an urgency to leave Europe between 1930-1948?

[Behind the Aegis]

65. Immigration? GOOD!

EXCEPT when it is JEWS! Then it is "colonialism".

[AloeVera]

66. Exactly.

And the Palestinians had nothing to do with it. But they are paying the price. As Ben-Gurion said:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Maybe think about that and the last 75 years. What have the Palestinians ever gotten but be robbed out of a country promised to them by the British, then the UN, and then to live as miserable refugees denied right of return, under occupation in ever-diminishing lands where they are killed, imprisoned and tortured by a nation now intent on killing, expelling or subjugating them?

[Mosby]

72. Selective quotes from an early leader proves nothing.

Selected quotes of one leader are not representative of an entire spectrum of parties and factions that equally saw themselves as “Zionist.”

What real evidence do have for the bolded part of this statement?

What have the Palestinians ever gotten but be robbed out of a country promised to them by the British, then the UN, and then to live as miserable refugees denied right of return, under occupation in ever-diminishing lands where they are killed, imprisoned and tortured by a nation now intent on killing, expelling or subjugating them?

You are doing nothing more than demonizing Israelis and Israel. It's wrong and illiberal.

[lapucelle]

82. It's not the whole quote.

The poster left something out. I'm sure it was just an oversight.

I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never [come to terms with] Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago. What is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?

https://archive.org/details/jewishparadox0000gold/mode/2up?view=theater

------------------------------------------------------

Caveat lector:

Of course there are other problems concerning the quote. The original conversion between Goldman and Ben-Gurion was in Hebrew. Goldman recounted his memory of it decades later to the interviewer, but in French.

The book was originally published in French, and then translated into English for the English speaking market. This is Goldman's account of a conversation that had taken place decades before. The original Hebrew was rendered in French and then translated into English.

-----------------------------------------------------

Below is the quote in French from the original publication. Here's the part of what the poster left out:

Nous sommes originaires d’Israël

We are natives of Israel

-----------------------------------

Je ne comprends pas ton optimisme », me déclara Ben Gourion. « Pourquoi les Arabes feraient-ils la paix? Si j’étais, moi, un leader arabe, jamais je ne signerais avec Israël. C’est normal : nous avons pris leur pays. Certes, Dieu nous l’a promis, mais en quoi cela peut-il les intéresser ? Notre Dieu n’est pas le leur. Nous sommes originaires d’Israël, c’est vrai, mais il y a de cela deux mille ans : en quoi cela les concerne-t-il ? Il y a eu l’antisémitisme, les nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, mais était-ce leur faute? Ils ne voient qu’une chose : nous sommes venus et nous avons volé leur pays.

https://www.babelio.com/livres/Goldmann-Le-Paradoxe-juif--Conversations-en-francais-avec-/638161/citations

----------------------------------

Oh, and the poster misspelled the originale title of the book. It's Le Paradoxe juif. French is not everyone's strong suit.

[lapucelle]

74. That's not the whole quote, is it?

[edhopper]

16. And approximately 600,000 Jews

were forced out of Muslim countries and settled in Israel.

[AloeVera]

21. Interesting you mention that.

A very diffent scenario. See One Million Plan, Magic Carpet, aliyah, Zionist national movement.

Of course there was also an element of punishment, or tit for tat. The departure, flight, emigration would not have happened otherwise. Jews had lived in those countries for milennia. In addition, after the Nakba and the creation of Israel, there was suspicion of Jews in Arab countries as a Fifth Column. There was lots of suffering there too, not denying that, especially in countries that confiscated assets. What a terrible thing, to have to leave everything behind and not be allowed to go back, no?

Further, I refer you to this:

The 1948 Palestinian exodus has also drawn comparisons with the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries, which involved the departure, flight, migration, and expulsion of 800000–1000000 Jews from Arab and Muslim countries between 1948 and the 1970s. In three resolutions between 2007 and 2012 (H.Res. 185, S.Res. 85, H.R. 6242), the US Congress called on the Barack Obama administration to "pair any explicit reference to Palestinian refugees with a similar reference to Jewish or other refugee populations".[136][137][138]

Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath has rejected the comparison, arguing that the ideological and historical significance of the two population movements are totally different and that any similarity is superficial. Porath says that the immigration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel, expelled or not, was from a Jewish-Zionist perspective the fulfilment of "a national dream" and of Israeli national policy in the form of the One Million Plan. He notes the efforts of Israeli agents working in Arab countries, including those of the Jewish Agency in various Arab countries since the 1930s, to assist a Jewish "aliyah". Porath contrasts this with what he calls the "national calamity" and "unending personal tragedies" suffered by the Palestinians that resulted in "the collapse of the Palestinian community, the fragmentation of a people, and the loss of a country that had in the past been mostly Arabic-speaking and Islamic".[139]

Israeli academic Yehouda Shenhav has written in an article entitled "Hitching A Ride on the Magic Carpet" published in the Israeli daily Haaretz regarding this issue. "Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: "I don't regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists."[full citation needed] In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee." He added: "I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee."[140]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight

[Goddessartist]

28. Thank you for this

Very enlightening, and of course has no response from those here that lump all Palestinians with terrorists.

Had to take a few days off after that one ugly thread.

[AloeVera]

30. You're welcome!

I know what you mean. I was called worse than a Nazi and an active and willing agent of Hamas and wished that Israel gives me everything I deserve.

I had to laugh at the Hamas agent part and replied I would be contacting my Hamas handler for further instructions. Now that I've been outed and all.

You have to laugh sometimes, there is so much to cry about.

Take care!

[BannonsLiver]

35. I'll take things that never happened for $500, Alex

[AloeVera]

39. It's real.

Sadly.

[AloeVera]

45. The post is still up.

I don't believe in the Mandela/freedom fighter type of calling out of individual members to try to shame or ridicule them. Though in this case, I was tempted to make an exception, it was so egregious. But nah.

[Goddessartist]

37. Anyone

that expresses any support of the Palestinians or points out Israel's war crimes is called that, as if it's a knee jerk reaction. The apparent hatred of the Palestinians as a whole is quite visible.

You take care too!

[BannonsLiver]

41. Every time?

[Beastly Boy]

69. Here is your long awaited response:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19030072

You're welcome, and thank you for your patience.

[Beastly Boy]

68. What in the world is your point? They were EXPELLED, for gawd's sake!

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2024, 07:36 PM - Edit history (1)

They left under duress from their respective Muslim countries' governments and nationals, their land and property confiscated, and they were never allowed to come back. All those thousand year old Jewish communities in diaspora never recovered to this day. What happened to them outside of the countries they were kicked out of is immaterial to the fact of their expulsion.



Very few of them desired to voluntarily leave their ancestral lands. They get no right of return. They can't claim their lands or properties back. They don't have the luxury to demand the status of a sovereign state in the UN. They don't cry ethnic cleansing.

AND, none of them claim past oppression entitles them to acts of "resistance"!

And you pretend that somehow this Nakba favorably compares to the Palestinian Nakba? The 2 million Israelis of Palestinian descent just might disagree with you.

[TheKentuckian]

81. The even by your own definition Jews in the middle east is

essentially on par with the Palestinians.

Where is that you think their descendants have to go?

Where are the generations born in Israel supposed to go?

The Arabs have all kinds of territory some in just as much or moreso "made up" nations none of which is their some demand of dissolution or similar, it is only the Jews it is ever fine and dandy to dispel over and over.

Hell no. Not a chance.

[AloeVera]

90. One thing we agree on.

We agree expulsion or dispelling of a people is wrong.

So why so readily advocate for "dispelling" of Palestinians to other nations, fake or not? Are the Palestinians a "lesser" people?

Hell no.

[Beastly Boy]

17. I am assuming the "not so" doesn't refer to "The Palestinians who agreed to coexist with Jewish people live in Israel."

That wouldn't make any sense - they cannot be both living in Israel and be expelled from Isrel.

If, on the other hand, the "not so" refers to inhabitants of Gaza, suggesting that "They were expelled and "cleansed" or fled" doesn't make sense either.

It is absurd to suggest that any Palestinians were expelled by Israel or Zionists from Gaza as a consequence of the war for independence or the armistice of 1949: Israel never had any control of the territory until 1967. When contesting the origins of Gazan Palestinians today, it is completely dishonest to suggest that any of the disputed 700000 Palestinians were expelled from Gaza. On the contrary, some of them SETTLED in Gaza, not expelled from it, just as the post you replied to suggests. And they remained subjects of Egypt for 17 years. If you are suggesting any collapse of their society, blame it on Egypt, not Israel.

[lapucelle]

18. There are 2,100,000 Arab citizens of Israel. They make up more than 20% of the Israeli population.

There are more than 400 mosques in Israel where Muslims worship.

There are currently 10 Muslim members of the Knesset, and there have been Muslim members since the first election in 1949.

In 2022, Judge Khaled Kabub became the first Muslim permanently appointed to Israel's Supreme Court.

[betsuni]

24. +1

[yardwork]

56. These facts simply don't compute for people who believe lies.

It's sad.

[Mosby]

73. Avi Shlaim is the most biased of the "new historians"

The most respected is Benny Morris, who eventually rejected the post modernist aspects of the "New Historians" and acknowledged the religious-jihadi rhetoric of the Arab campaign and Arab rejection of the UN partition resolution.

[AloeVera]

85. The most respected from the left is Ilan Pappe.

If anything, I thought he would be considered most "biased" by the Israrli side. That's why I chose Shlaim.

I knew Benny Morris had rejected some of Pappe's claims, but I did not know he had later gone further. Something to look into.

Post modernist, though?

[spanone]

14. The Wall Street Urinal is not to be believed.

[betsuni]

25. Are the quotes fake?

[Cha]

71. Good question ..

TY 🕯️🕊️💙🌊🇺🇸🌈

[marble falls]

52. And Netanyahu says the same thing regarding Hamas. Shame on both of them for their murdering goals.

[Omnipresent]

53. Hamas long game, is a stupid game.

[Deep State Witch]

60. Those of Us Who Said that Hamas Doesn't Give A Hoot

About ordinary Palestinians who are getting killed were right. They could end this anytime they wanted to by returning the hostages.

[Generic Brad]

99. Ah! The old "I meant to keep hitting myself" strategy