I am so sick and tired of the anarchists who tack onto peaceful protests

[Peacetrain]

to do what I am not sure.. I do not know what they stand for.. To be honest with you they sound like the Bannon right wing.. The people I am talking about run around masked and threatening whole groups of people.. they destroy everything around them... They did the same thing during Black Lives Matter Protests.

[TBF]

1. Scary Anarchists -

Do you have some sort of citation or are you just watching MSM and falling for their crap? I don't mean to be harsh, but "oh the scary leftists" is not something I really love to read about on a supposedly liberal website.

[EllieBC]

2. I'm assuming they're talking about

The assholes who hopped onto a train yesterday in New York City and demanded people identify themselves if they were Zionists. Or perhaps the people that unfold the banner at Union Square that said long live October 7. Or perhaps the people that defaced Jewish homes in Brooklyn. Or maybe the African American guy who was screaming at a Jewish person, “I wish Hitler were still here.”

I do think it’s unfair to just assume that they are anarchists. I am more than willing to accept that there are antisemites on the left.

[TBF]

3. Perhaps the term "antisemitic" would suffice. nt

[wnylib]

37. They are extreme leftists who see Israelis as "White, capitalist, colonialist, imperialists."

I've encountered and argued with local people who spout the same lines and take the same positions.

[OneGrassRoot]

50. Same. Online and off. Former friends...

And they see the US as The Great Satan and want to burn it all down, acknowledging Trump will do that faster. Accelerationists. On the left.

Palestinians should be terrified of such allies.

[wnylib]

52. We ignore the fact that they are from the left at our own peril.

They are just as dangerous to liberal democracy as the far right Tea Party who morphed into MAGAs.

[OneGrassRoot]

53. Thank you. I feel I'm...

getting pummeled for trying to make that point.

[wnylib]

63. I can suport changes that seem radical at the time, and have done so,

when the changes are constructive for living up to the constitutional values of democracy. Voting rights, desegregation, full equality for all in education, jobs, health care, women's rights, labor rights and collective bargaining, etc. were once thought radical, but I've supported them for as far back as I can remember.

But I cannot and will not support a "tear it all down and start over" type of radicalism coming from anyone who glories in the taking down but doesn't have an ounce of wisdom about how to rebuild. The rebuilding ideas that I've heard so far sound like Utopian idealism without any foundation in practical reality.

And I certainly can't support any ideology or movement that claims to represent "the people" while spouting hate at targeted groups. That kind of movement does not support "the people" no matter what they call themselves any better than the People's Republic of China title describes a democratic government of human rights.

The farthest ends of extremism are totalitarian, authoritarian regimes whether they come from extreme far right or extreme far left. Both extreme ends serve ideology over people which requires absolute obedience to the ideology.

[OneGrassRoot]

66. 💯 n/t

[OutNow]

77. So, what is incorrect with this position?

Are Zionists mostly white? Yes. While the Zionist Labor Party was once quite anti-capitalist it's percentage of votes has been greatly reduced while the right wing capitalist parties hold complete power. Are Zionists colonists? Of course they are. There is no factual dispute. Vladimir Jabotinsky, the founder of Zionism said "Zionism is a colonization adventure." Are Zionists Imperialist, i.e. do they seek to expand their power and territory by military and economic means? Have you seen what has happened to the West Bank in the last 50 years? Over 500,000 Israelis now live in the West Bank and major new settlements are planned. There is no other word for this policy other than imperialism.

We can have a discussion about what to do with this situation and agree that Hamas, etc. are terrible people but to deny what is obvious is delusional.

[wnylib]

82. The British were the colonists in pre 1948 Palestine.

Israel gained its independence from the British colonists.

Prior to that, the imperialist rulers of "Palestine" were the Ottoman Turks. Many of the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians today are immigrants or descendants of immigrants from nearby Arabic nations who went to British Palestine for work. Many of today's citizens of Israel had been expelled from Muslim nations in the region. Then there are the 20% of Israeli citizens who are Arabic Muslims. Their loyalty to Israel is stronger than to terrorists who attack Israel.

It is a remarkable stretch of imagination to claim that people who have had a historical, cultural, and residential connection to the land for 3000 years are colonists there.

As for capitalism, I do not buy into the far left view that it is inherently evil. It must be regulated, as it was under FDR's programs, because financial dealings and transactions require laws, as do other facets of society. The right wing has been dismantling FDR era financial laws for decades. Raw, unregulated capitalism produces a near Medieval state of society in which robber baron oligarchs become today's equivalent of Medieval nobility and royalty, hoarding money and resources for their inner circle of descendants to inherit, making serfs and peasants of the rest of us. But with regulations to restrict corporate monopolies that can be (and was for many years) prevented.

Laws and social programs to assure basic rights and necessities are part of good governance in a nation, especially a democratic one. That includes public services like roads, police and fire departments, public libraries, public schools, and assurance of basic life necessities like health care and access to affordable food and housing. That is part of the role of governance without the need for a total switch to socialism and destruction of capitalism.

So I do not subscribe to anti capitalist rhetoric. I find it strangely hypocritical of people to denounce capitalism in Israel (or anywhere else) while supporting the "freedom" of Palestine under their current conditions of dominance by extremely wealthy terrorist leaders. I fully support an independent state of Palestine, but not under the rule and authority of terrorists who endanger the region and their own people.

[betsuni]

85. Thank you.

[OneGrassRoot]

88. I would LOVE to find a space to have rational discussion about this...

I've searched but as yet haven't found it. I've been doing a very deep dive over the last six months and come away with the solid impression that many of the recent Pro-Palestinian activists -- those who didn't have a clue where Gaza was until after 10/7 -- have an almost obscenely reductive belief about this conflict's history. I started my research hoping that I could indeed boil things down to it being all about white imperialistic exploitation but absolutely couldn't do that even with only more of a cursory understanding.

Focusing on events since 10/7 is one thing but, inevitably and understandably, past history comes into play and that's when rational discussion flies out the window.

Another impression is that the batshit crazy religious extremists - Jewish and Muslim - are equally or I think even more to blame than the imperialist focus which you clarified a bit. I realize I have much, much more to learn and need to return to what I've already read to process more, but it seemed to me that it wasn't so much of a typical British colonization effort after WWI and the Ottoman Empire lost -- though no doubt interests, resources and influence were part of the equation -- but instead it seemed like the Allies didn't really know what the fuck to do with that region and tried to leave it up to the residents. Of course the Balfour Declaration and Britain not adhering to promises to Palestinians (though some Jewish leaders felt Britain didn't really come through for them either) are the responsibility of Britain, but given the complexity of that region it seems they just wanted to GTFO and not have to deal with any of it most of the time.

So many of these recent Pro-Palestinian activists have this impression that one mass wave of white (that's key) Jews descended on the region in 1948 and tried to obliterate Palestinians and will NOT listen to anything contrary to their simplistic view. They pretty much start and end all conversation with "I stand with the innocent children," sanctimoniously insinuating that everyone else are blood-thirsty maniacs. WTF?! I expect a more overt accusation leaning toward blood libel to start being spewed, just like QAnon does.

While some of the original framers of the Israeli state and Zionism had views and intentions that were awful and exploitive, the vast majority of Jews who immigrated from Europe weren't even religious and just sought a safe haven and didn't want to displace anyone and wanted to work with the many Arab Palestinians -- Jews, Christians and Muslims -- living there. It's only in the last few months I learned of the nearly one million Arab Jews who were expelled from Muslim nations as you said. I'm not sure precisely when it changed but my understanding is that most people in that region didn't identify with nations and states or even ethnicities.

So this conflation of "all Jews are imperialist colonizers" isn't remotely accurate. And the more vicious protestors/activists absolutely mean All Jews when they say Israel. Yes, the antisemitic left. But many of the people I personally know who fall into this camp now truly weren't antisemitic before 10/7. That's why I say they have been radicalized with mis/disinformation, no different than QAnon. Granted, the fact that anyone can be influenced by such dis/misinformation means they already held views conducive to seeing certain groups as The Other.

And the conflation of so many isms by This Group of People Who Identify As Being On The Left But I Can't Use Any Specific Label Because Someone Takes Exception And Derails The Convo pretty much does boil down in their minds to The West Is Evil and the US and Israel ARE the West. Soooooo.....

Honestly, I don't even know what people mean when they say Zionism anymore. I don't think THEY know what they mean. That is a word that has morphed a great deal in the last 8 months.

Sorry for the hodge-podge of thoughts but I'm rather consumed by this and really wish I had people to discuss it with, calmly. lol

ETA: I've been reading about the history of this region going back thousands of years...lol...so that's why there is so very much to process.

[TBF]

94. This is an excellent post -

it's a very complex issue and I like how you break it down and go into the history. Maybe should be an OP on its own?

And I hear what you say about wanting to have a calm discussion. This is probably one of the most contentious topics out there right now, and I'm afraid I fell into that yesterday with my "oh sure - blame the anarchists". I knew what I meant, but I was too hostile/flippant in my approach. That's why I kept looking for good articles and finally found one where AOC was on a panel discussing current antisemitism on the left. And even discussing antisemitism is difficult these days, you almost have to define the term in the conversation, to make sure all are on the same page. It is very difficult.

[OneGrassRoot]

96. Yes!!!

I created an OP the other day to address a certain faction who identifies as being on the left and it devolved because 1) I said they identify as being on the left and 2) I used the term leftist, which is not derogatory in and of itself to me. Rarely can we agree on the meaning of descriptive words any longer, so it is very difficult to have meaningful discussions about the topic at hand. I couldn’t agree more.

The group of people I was referring to are those who loathe democrats, liberals (and even some progressives which I guess the AOC article I shall read discusses), and the US as a whole. They are often nihilistic, even accelerationist. “Burn it all down.”

I highly doubt such people are members of DU now, though I know a handful who used to be, because of their hatred of democrats. And I’m not talking dislike or criticism - I’m talking loathing, and see us as the enemy.

Some DUers took offense at that info which does puzzle me.

[LeftInTX]

97. Israelis are no longer mostly white, European Jews, They are Mizrahi Middle Eastern Jews. Deported from Arab, Iran.

Mizrahi Jews were deported from the ME.

The majority of Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews. Mizrahi Jews are from ME countries such as Iraq, Iran and Yemen. They look like their former countries citizens. A Yemenite Jew killed Begin. Ben Gvir is Kurdi/Iraqi Jewish. "Bibi" is nickname for Habibi. That is because Bibi's supporters speak Arabic.

The founders of Zionism are long dead.

Ashkenazi populations have been surpassed by Middle Eastern Jews. Middle Eastern Jews are very conservative and tend to have conservative politics like the countries that they came from.

What are the white, anti-colonialist protesters and white, Christian Zionists gonna say when a PM of Israel looks this?

[OneGrassRoot]

98. THIS n/t

[TBF]

86. Maybe not so extreme -

this is the crux of what I was trying to say yesterday. I wouldn't jump to conclusions about who is fomenting violence, and I wouldn't automatically point and yell "anarchists"! It may be a little closer to home than that.

I read a great article this morning about whether the left is engaging in antisemitism that I think is on-point and perhaps tackles the subject that some of you are touching on.

Gifted from Haretz - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haaretz-today/2024-06-13/ty-article/.highlight/aipac-aoc-and-the-american-lefts-antisemitism-problem/00000190-1280-d667-abf0-76cbd3740000?gift=22e2b3d418a94ae69494fc0159b07371

[OneGrassRoot]

87. Darn, that looks like a really good article

I know you listed it as gifted but I can't access it via that link, and it's not available at the Archive-NoPayWall site yet either. Not sure I want to pay $14 for the article...lol. Anyway, I've saved the link for future reference. Thanks.

[TBF]

92. ugh, tried to gift it (I subscribe to Haaretz) --

This is the title -- Israel News | Haaretz Today
Haaretz Today | AIPAC, AOC and the American Left's Antisemitism Problem
Accusing Democratic Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of being an AIPAC puppet is perhaps the most laughable example of how much some on the American left have lost the plot

"Ocasio-Cortez delivered a number of noteworthy quotes. "When it comes to the current conflict, it is possible to recognize Jewish pain, fear and grief in this moment. It does not take away from our grief and pain for families in Gaza," she said. "It's also important to educate ourselves about the line past which criticism of the Israeli government can slip into antisemitism."

She added that "doing so protects our Jewish neighbors, and protects the broader movement for a lasting peace from being discredited."

Her remarks underlining the harm of antisemitism, as well as cases where it occurs on the left, is noteworthy enough in its own right. But for Jewish establishment leaders to engage with Ocasio-Cortez – who has been a frequent lightning rod of criticism from many American Jews for her positions on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict – rather than dismissing her outright should serve as a model for future engagements."

Just a clip from it ... you get the gist. I'll do some searches and see if I can find a US (and hopefully free!!) source talking about this panel.

[TBF]

93. Here is one account from Forward -

I don't subscribe so this should come through. And then there are FOX, Jerusalem Times, etc - with different "takes" on it - "AOC Slams antisemitism on left" etc. I tend to like Haaretz and their left viewpoint, so that is where I get my Israel news. But in terms of antisemitism on the left, AOC acknowledging it and saying "we need to discuss this" is important.

https://forward.com/fast-forward/621313/aoc-antisemitism-progressives-israel-gaza-alexandria-ocasio-cortez/

[OneGrassRoot]

95. Thanks very much! n/t

[Cha]

74. Mahalo, EllieBC.. Excellent post.. they are

Anti Semitic Assholes.

[EllieBC]

83. Unreal how anyone

could try to paint them as anything more than antisemitic pieces of shit.

[wryter2000]

35. The OP did not say leftists

That's another issue on which you have point. The OP is talking about anarchists who ruin peaceful protests. Often they wear masks and don't have the spine to show their faces.

[TBF]

42. What do you think anarchists are?

I am well aware of the behavior the OP is describing, as we've also seen it on college campuses for months. There is a lot of disinformation out there, and I do think some of our college students have been duped by those supporting terrorists. Some of these folks are no doubt leftists, and some are no doubt nazis. To broad brush it and call them all "anarchists" is a step too far and I believe deliberate.

Why not do an OP on antisemitic behavior we are seeing in the protests & also in our neighborhoods? And why not label it as it is - antisemitic?

[happy feet]

48. Little reported, but yes,

there were anarchists among the BLM protestors (replete w/video) who started the fires and looting, including one who looked like a policeman who broke a storefront window while protestors told him not to do that.. So, yes.

[Think. Again.]

75. That guy who broke the windows...

...is connected to white supremacist groups.

it isn't only the anarchist fringe that disrupt and infiltrate protests, the rightwing uses that technique regularly.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/minneapolis-umbrella-man-white-supremacist-192129471.html

[stopdiggin]

4. the idea that these people are either 1) infiltrators

or 2) right wing - couldn't be any further from the truth. We delude ourselves with such fairytales. It's comforting to imagine that these people aren't really from the left - but also dead wrong.

[OneGrassRoot]

16. Thank you. Many here REALLY don't want to hear that it seems. n/t

[yardwork]

25. I agree.

[Think. Again.]

26. Yeah! the rightwing would NEVER do THAT!

(Also: kyle rittenhouse).

[XorXor]

32. Rittenhouse wasn't claiming to be part of the protests

In the videos his group stated they were there to protect businesses from destructive protesters. A better example would be that right-wing dude who was videoed randomly breaking windows. The difference is that he covered his face and was a lone idiot doing it. What we see now is not that. We can find many of these people on social media and see that they believe what they claim. A lot of these folks are counterproductive asshats who are mirror images of what they claim to be against

[stopdiggin]

36. the 'infiltrators' mythology is not a (plausible) explanation for

what happened either on Jan. 6th - or the 'Genocide Joe" anti-Israel protests. (both things clearly feeding into attitudes and impulses that were already locked and loaded)

We too can play our little Q-Anon conspiracy games ... But it doesn't profit us.

[Think. Again.]

64. Sorry, taking advantage of protests is an old practice...

...not a conspiracy theory.

[stopdiggin]

81. there was virtually no need for anyone to hijack the Palestinian protests

when they so obviously came front loaded with a powerful array of hatred and prejudice.

[Think. Again.]

84. Obviously there WAS a need to hijack the protests...

Last edited Fri Jun 14, 2024, 06:58 AM - Edit history (1)

...if they wanted their "array of hatred and prejudice" to come to the front.

Without hijackng the protests, the original protester's message would have remained in the forefront, and the hijackers wouldn't have been able to fool the public into thinking the protests were anything other than pro-Palestian.

[stopdiggin]

90. those 'peaceful protests' were full of virulant hate (and messaging)

from day one. The didn't have to be 'co-opted'.

[Think. Again.]

91. No, but it's interesting to see....

...how well you understand the infiltration method.

[Think. Again.]

76. "mythology"?

Minneapolis 'umbrella man' is white supremacist who smashed windows to 'incite violence,' police say

https://www.yahoo.com/news/minneapolis-umbrella-man-white-supremacist-192129471.html

[Happy Hoosier]

34. Because many Islamic people in the US have been victimized by the right....

.... and many on the American left have staunchly opposed Islamophobia, many on the American left have naturally assumed they are allied with Muslims in America.

That's true for some muslim people, of course, but many muslim immigrants are quite conservative and not our natural allies. Beyond wanting to oppose Islamophobes, many Islamic Immigrants oppose LGBTQ+ rights, many oppose women's rights. They are often very socially conservative. And often STAUNCHLY anti-Israel to the point of open Antisemitism.

[TheKentuckian]

70. Our version of Antifa being the insurrectionists

There is very little need for the right to hijack any of this.

They were showing their asses on Day #0 already and have done nothing but ratchet up since.

[BannonsLiver]

5. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

[Beastly Boy]

6. They don't just tack onto peaceful protest.

They co-opt the protests and take them over.

There is no room among the haters for anyone who considers themselves to be peaceful protesters. No affiliation with the violent thugs is excusable under these circumstances.Those who don't vocally and unambiguously break ties with the violent protesting haters are complicit in their hate.

[stopdiggin]

22. good point. as soon as someone starts vandalizing property

tossing around paint - engaging in physical confrontation ... (or talking/encouraging any of these things)

That's your cue to start heading for the exits, son.

[Qutzupalotl]

7. I've seen them at protests out here

around Eugene. They take things to extremes. Their chants are rehearsed and seem to go a lot farther than the purpose of the protest. I think they were hoping we'd join them. We mostly stared them down with an expression of “Huh? What did you say?” and they backed off.

[Bad Thoughts]

19. Nursery Rhymes of hate and violence

Their repetition is meant to make people ok with all sorts of hate.

[stopdiggin]

23. yeah. but that is NOT what is happening

in this current crop of protests.

[JI7]

8. The so called peaceful protestors can speak up

and condemn them if they are peaceful.

During some of the black lives matter protests this happened a few times.

[The Magistrate]

9. Demonstrations Are Run And Orchestrated By The People Who Show Up For Committee Meetings

Every single time there is one, every time there's a vote taken, every time there's stuff to paste up or pass out. It doesn't take many to take control, and set a tone for the enterprise.

[Hekate]

38. THIS -- Be part of the planning, get to know the people involved, know your cohort

Thank you

[bigtree]

99. 'run and orchestrated'

...still doesn't make demonstrators calling for ceasefires and a cessation of violence advocates of Hamas.

Conversely, protestors advocating for peace in Israel-supporting demonstrations aren't necessarily calling for genocide of Palestinians by collateral attacks on civilian populations as they advocate for the elimination of the terrorist group.

This is America, not Israel, and most American advocates bring a decidedly U.S. perspective to their protests, having to do more with limiting weapons and support for wanton militarism on either side than with support for what combatants are doing in Gaza.

[Wednesdays]

10. I can't prove it, but I'd bet they're usually "false flag" agents provocetuer

Else why all the face masks?

[sarisataka]

20. Within Our Lifetime- a well-known Pro-Palestinian, antiZionist(*) group

who has helped organize many of the protests has on their "Resources" page:

We Keep Us Safe: Security Recommendations
Protect Everyone:

Scope out your rally location ahead of time and make sure your route is free of obstructions being mindful of street directions, locations of police precincts, etc.
Develop a security team and have a briefing shortly before the rally to go over the timeline of the day and any security threats
Move as one, stay behind front banners to keep the rally cohesive and protected.
Keep route direction closely guarded, do not tell random people who ask.
Journalists and photographers should check in with organizers before publishing any material
Do Not Talk to The Police! Have an assigned police negotiator who is the sole person talking to the police.
Do not record, post, or talk freely about anything that could get anyone in legal trouble.

Protect Yourself:

Cover your face if you do not want to be identified.
Find your local National Lawyer’s Guild chapter and write their phone number down on your arm in case you’re arrested.
Travel to and leave the action with friends and comrades.

Note their advice under Protect Yourself, the first line.

[yardwork]

29. I doubt many are false flag infiltrators.

Believe what they say. They mean it.

[Richard D]

60. Yes!

100%. They say what they want. When the say "Death to Jews" that is exactly what they mean.

[wnylib]

39. Face masks to avoid being identified for their vandalism by witnesses, employers, and LE.

[TheKentuckian]

11. Oh please. They have been showing their ass since Day #0

and have only become more emboldened and unhinged by the day.

The Hamas/Hezbollah rallies may have been largely free of overt violence but have never been peaceful.

You can't chalk harrassment of Jewish people and calls for genocide as peaceful no matter how much you squint, spin up excuses, finger point at squirrels, or rationalize.

[GreenWave]

12. Glittering generalities and one size fits all.

Unless you research and admit to human variance.

[Coventina]

13. Don't smear the anarchists with this anti-Semitic crap. These people want Sharia law. n/t

[TBF]

17. Yup. But I've gotten used to it on this site -

it is why I generally take breaks from time to time. Every so often the "kill all the leftists" posts come out & are widely applauded by the centrists.

Now we're blaming antisemitism on anarchists, when there are antisemites all over the political quadrant. We realized that when we were talking about Nazis in Charlottesville, but now apparently it's time to kick the leftists to the curb again.

[Coventina]

21. "No gods, no masters" is the anarchist creed

Clearly that is not a principle these folks are promoting.

[Hekate]

40. I've never seen a call to "kill all the leftists" at DU, nor have I seen such "widely applauded by centrists"

Your second paragraph was fine — but wrecked by your first, which is simply slanderous to this site.

[TBF]

51. I think then that you are not paying attention

which I'm sure you'll bristle at. I would've happily agreed with the OP had they simply spoken out against antisemitism. Instead, the theme is that the "awful anarchists (leftists)" are behind all the violence.

We don't know that to be the case at all. As I commented in another post, we saw plenty of Nazis in Charlottesville, and we certainly saw the masks when they congregated Jan 6th to attempt their coup d'état. Did anyone think those groups were the scary "anarchists"? No, we recognized these were MAGA and other right-wing extremists.

Not that there aren't some that are capable of violence on the left, but I'd posit that they are a lot less organized (and many fewer after the purge in the 50s) ... so why a large brush swipe at anarchists?

[Hekate]

55. "Kill all the leftists"? Don't deflect. You said that.

[TBF]

57. Ignore all the words you don't want to read -

that's fine. And yes when I see the broad brush painting I will call it what it is. I'm sorry that you don't like that. :

[Hekate]

61. What you said about this site was about the broadest brush I've ever seen. I'll fight at your side ...

…against the antisemitism that has reared its ugly head here.

But the other thing you said? Oh, please.

[wnylib]

43. When they call Israelis capitalist colonial imperialists

they do not sound like right wingers to me.

Those are views held by the far left.

[OneGrassRoot]

45. Can we just kick...

the accelerationist/nihilistic ones who identify as leftist to the curb?

To me nothing wrong with being leftist (though what that or other labels really mean anymore is becoming a mystery). But when people who identify as being leftist promote actions to “burn everything down” and accelerate the complete crumbling of civilization, with violence or at minimum violent rhetoric, that’s a problem.

Acting like such people don’t exist on the left isn’t helpful. It’s a shame many here are sensitive to any critique of such nihilists as critiquing all leftists and then get defensive. If the types of behaviors being called out such as in OPs like this don’t apply to you, why take it personally?



I understand Maga. I don’t understand a good chunk of people on the left any more. Not since 2016.

[haele]

54. Nihilists attach themselves to any cause that has an urgent or emotional basis.

Because they like spinning well meaning groups up and around and watching the chaos.
They wallow in the destruction and pain. They're sad, cynical wannabe social warriors, trying to prove anyone who acts or cares to improve situations or promotes compassion is just as hypocritical as the politicians and wealthy people who feed off those less powerful for their own benefit.
Burn it all down either to just end it all or to start all over. That's what nihilists want. That, or to get laid and scan money while they burn it down.
And yeah, they infiltrate leftist causes as well as join right wing groups. Because that's where the fuel for their cynical entertainment is.

Haele

[OneGrassRoot]

62. No doubt some have made a profession...

out of their nihilism, in various ways now that I think about it.

I’m most confused by former friends who never exhibited such traits yet since 2016, in conjunction with the most current crisis, has joined the nihilists. Never more so than since 10/7.

FWIW, I don’t believe such people are on DU because the former friends in question now loathe anything associated with liberals/progressives and democrats even though they used to be both.

[haele]

67. COVID Isolation and the constant bombardment of "bothisidersm"

It was just as bad before COVID, but the initial panic due to the mortality - and the long COVID - and stress of lockdown - and almost complete year of isolation made a lot of people lose their minds.
Solitary confinement, lack of just normal interaction and the constant fear you had because you didn't know who or what was safe turned a lot of people clinically depressed or semi-feral, just as it has proven to do to people in prison. One becomes stripped down. Politeness and the social contract tend to go away.
I noticed my temper became shorter and I will get longer periods of hopelessness when stressed instead of being able to shake it off and start looking for positive solutions. I began putting off the slightest non-normal tasks because I started feeling extremely stressed out if I had to step out of a regular routine ("What, I have to call and make an appointment to tune up the HVAC or call pest control? And I have to stand by when they come because I'm working from home?Jeeze, why can't someone else do it and tell me later?" )
It took about a year to realize I had a problem and start turning it around.

It didn't help most people that once it started becoming unprofitable for the big companies to practice protection once there was a vaccine, there was pretty much a universal shrug and attitude of "You're on your own" implied that if you didn't go back to normal, there was something wrong-weak about you.

Yah, people lost their damn minds and reverted back to the emotional equivalent of adolescence. And there's still too many who haven't managed to re-navigate themselves back to emotional adulthood. Maybe because they're still experiencing lockdown PTSD, maybe because they gave up.

Sorry about your friend going conservative.

Haele

[OneGrassRoot]

68. Excellent points.

As an introvert I just stayed in the pandemic isolation for the most part rather than constantly doing things I didn’t want to for others. Or that may be me just relaxing into my later years. lol

But your point is well taken. COVID fundamentally shifted many things at a societal level.

[yardwork]

72. Good points, and also I've thought about the impact on college students.

Students graduating from college this spring didn't experience a lot of in-person college. They missed out on the everyday protests, gatherings, and general conviviality of students living together on campus.

They may be a little starved for a collective activity - and then October 7 happened and bang, all their social media and a bunch of their professors urged them to do something. And here we are. Keffiyehs and watermelons and all.

[TheKentuckian]

79. Happily, somehow Covid had the opposite effect on an old friend

and he is recovering from a Libertarian phase quite nicely.

Now my worry is over correcting his way to a whiplash in the other direction and still ending up reactionary and anti-democratic but so far so good!

[Silent3]

47. Anarchists and anti-semites are definitely two different things

Nevertheless, anarchists are nucking futs.

[EarthFirst]

14. Sounds like a re-branded Antifa meme...

Any indication that these were in fact the anarchists you’re doxxing?

[OneGrassRoot]

18. Doxxing? Yet another word that has morphed to mean something different.

I didn't see any personally identifiable info provided by the OP.

[stopdiggin]

24. yep. apparently doesn't know what the word means

because it sure doesn't have anything to do with THIS post.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

69. There's no mentions of Palestine, Israel or antisemites in the OP

That didn't stop people from getting offended at being called antisemites either...

[TheKentuckian]

80. That is their conscience messing with them.

They know what they sew but will fight like the devil to avoid admitting it.

[Hekate]

46. Doxxing has a specific meaning. In order to doxx you, I'd need to ferret out your name, address, SSN...

…email, phone number, employer, and that of your spouse and children — and then publish them so as to do the most harm.

That is not done at DU, and any attempt to do so would result in a swift ban for life.

[SWBTATTReg]

15. Yes, in STLMO, when we had the riots/demonstrations, most of the people that were arrested were from out of town.

It got to the point that city residents were keeping an eye on the protests, which were by far, mostly peaceful, and the ones that were, were where these fakers came in from rural MO or other states to 'stir' up or cause damage themselves, blaming the demonstrators for the damages. When someone was spotted acted weird, some of us would follow them while others called the police. So at least we caught some of the idiots. One was even caught throwing a brick or stone that they had bought w/ them through a store window.

Idiots. Don't piss off the city residents of STLMO w/ your foul deeds, otherwise, you more than likely will be on film/recorded and in jail before long. Parking is very hard to find in these neighborhoods of ours, so when these idiots had to park, they had to park a long ways off, thus making it easy for neighbors and police to catch up w/ these perps.

[Hekate]

31. THIS is exactly what needs to be done if you don't want to be co-opted by thugs

[SWBTATTReg]

71. Yes. And we took back our neighborhoods. Scumbags need to stay away. The protests were all peaceful too.

[Think. Again.]

27. Disrupting and infiltrating protests...

...has a long history, the problem is that protest organizers never seem to expect or prepare for it.

[wnylib]

49. Campus protest leaders (not infiltrators) were shouting in unison

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." Protest leaders, not infiltrators, led the move indoors to take over buildings.

[Think. Again.]

65. Palestine SHOULD be free.

(No, I am not an antisemite, no, I am not pro-hamas, yes I oppose rightwing netanyahu's murders.)

[Ex Lurker]

73. Palestine can be free any time it wants.

It could have been free years ago. It's entirely up to them.

[EX500rider]

78. But the "From the River to the Sea" means after they eradicate Israel

[yardwork]

28. I disagree that these are anarchists.

I know some anarchists and (1) actual anarchists are rare, (2) they've been around for a very long time doing their own thing, (3) they deliberately stay under the radar, and (4) they wouldn't be caught dead wearing a keffiyeh or carrying a watermelon poster.

The people in NYC and elsewhere who are smearing red paint on museums, yelling at Jewish people in their homes and on the subway, and screeching about "Genocide Joe" are not anarchists. They are led by known public figures such as Nerdeen Kiswani and her little organization.

[ms liberty]

30. They co opt the protest to sow chaos and division and

Then any and all of those with an opposing view point at those agitators and smear everyone who supports the issue or crisis being protested. Ultimately, they serve chaos and anarchy; and they don't actually adhere to any of the beliefs, probably of either side.

[wryter2000]

33. I am so with you

They need to grow up.

[stopdiggin]

41. the 'agents provocateur' is (mostly) an urban myth

largely promoted by the right wing media shills.

Has it never happened? Of course not - rat-f*cking is an age old and storied political tradition. Is it an even remotely plausible explanation for what is taking place on our TV screens today? Very clearly it is not !

[bluedigger]

44. They ought to follow the rules.

[scardycat]

58. These people that go around trashing.....

property and causing trouble are not helping but hurting. Stop the hate. Seeing these protests isnt helping President Biden win his relection either. In fact it is hurting.

[barbtries]

59. they sound like republicans to me.

in that it's very important to them to overcome the message of a peaceful, effective protest against war, or inequality, or for immigrants' or womens' rights by making it ugly than it is to make any point at all, other than maybe that liberal is a dirty word.

i know a libertarian, used to work with him. every time we interact and the subject comes up i call him what he is, a republican.

i hate republicans

[bigtree]

89. every one of our anti-Iraq war protests had a contingent of these people

...they'd try and start up chants about Palestine and most demonstrators moved away from them.

People claiming Hamas organized the rallies aren't accounting for the way Americans come to the cities like D.C. to participate in what they believe are protests along the lines of their own advocacy or opposition.

A lot of people are smeared by the association with the more organized protestors, but myriad folks come to these things without a clue about what they'll find.

It's clear that many young folks are latching onto these protests because of their revulsion at the collateral killings in retaliation for the attacks in Israel, not out of any affinity or association with radical advocates like Hamas.

Most young folks are protesting for ceasefires and a cessation of violence and militarism, not 'death to Israel.'

It's concerning that their advocacy is being exploited by both sides, with US defenders of Israel determined to portray them as accomplices to Hamas because of their opposition to the collateral retaliation.

There's a dishonest effort to portray advocates against violence on either side as complicit in the violence. For instance, some Israeli advocates portrayed calls for ceasefires as aiding Hamas.

Israel claims they're just shielding Hamas, and Palestinian advocates see Israelis protesting against Hamas bombing their country as supporting Israeli military bombing of civilians.

Truth is, they all just pawns in extremists' cynical strategies. Doesn't make them advocates for violence, though.