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[NashvilleLefty]

This message was self-deleted by its author (NashvilleLefty) on Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:52 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[trumad]

1. Rapist? Maybe... Douchebag...

Hell yeah!

Oh and by the way...you may want to delete the slut comment or risk having your ass handed to you in this thread.

[NashvilleLefty]

9. that's not how I perceive them now

but how I perceived them at the time.


I was a fool.

[Control-Z]

53. How you perceive them?

Who is them? Women?

[NashvilleLefty]

144. Yes. Are you surprised that my perceptions can evolve?

[arthritisR_US]

323. There are many a chap who haven't evolved, I applaud your evolution and honesty!

[Bonobo]

61. Odd that you feel so ambiguous about it.

Fucking a girl who is passed out is unambiguously rape.

[Common Sense Party]

156. I asked downthread, and I'd really like to know, what if he'd been the rapee?

I'm not asking this to judge. But I am curious to know, because I have to think that every rapist KNOWS what he is doing is WRONG.

But I asked:

When you were a teen, if YOU had passed out at a party, and some guy used your anus the way you used unconscious girls' vaginas, if you found out about it later, would YOU have thought that it was wrong, and that you had been raped?

I'm not talking about now. I mean back then. Would you have been cool with it, because, you know, seriously, that guy would have gone crazy if he didn't screw something.

I'd like to know what this person would have thought if the tables were turned and he's been the victim.

[renate]

169. what a profound and important question

I would really like to know the honest answer to this question--not just from the OP, who seems repentant about what he did, but from young men in this age group/demographic right now.

I think an ad campaign with your question would be very powerful, because I also think that a lot of people unconsciously feel that drunk women at parties are asking for it in a way that drunk men at parties would not be, but your question would make them think.

I know as a mother that I would be equally... oh, there aren't words for the horror I would feel... if either my son or my daughter was used in this way. The violation is horrific.

[Ken Burch]

167. True Dat.

I'm really not sure what to think of this OP.

Is this an attempt(albeit a weirdly passive aggressive one) to take responsibility for his past choices...or is it this posters twisted idea of a joke?

I hope he's not expecting group hugs for it.

[kestrel91316]

389. My vote is on the latter.

[Ohio Joe]

2. This will end well...

[Turborama]

20. Do you reckon this is going to be enough, or do I need to get another one?

[seabeyond]

23. really? this is that entertaining. something so painful for so many.

You are ready to be entertained at the op and others sad experience?

[Turborama]

25. No. It means I and many others will be reading with interest and not taking part.

Something wrong with that?

[seabeyond]

29. ya. that's it.

[Turborama]

40. It is.

That's what happens on internet discussion boards.

Especially when a flame war has just been initiated.

A lot will be learnt by many in this thread.

[Marrah_G]

3. Thank you for saying this!

[Common Sense Party]

4. That is a question which, if one has to ask, one has already answered.

Considered "Acceptable Behavior" by whom????

[NashvilleLefty]

11. By Progressives at the time!

Don't be so surprised. It was a different time.

[former-republican]

16. I'm 50 years old how old are you?

When I was young a drunk passed out woman was rape in the 70's still.
Where did you grow up?

[Gormy Cuss]

35. Yep.

Last edited Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:00 PM - Edit history (1)

The only difference is that then more people were willing to assign blame to the woman for getting drunk.

[former-republican]

43. Agree but the law was still the same as it is now. Nothing has really changed in the wording

of the charge of rape .

But I agree it was usually the women that was torn apart on a witness stand.

[pnwmom]

157. Maybe not in the legal wording, but in the prosecution, much has changed.

When the poster was a young man, the fact that a woman had previous sexual partners could be used against her.

[arthritisR_US]

332. Actually, where I live the wording to the law has changed. It used to be that verbal refusal of sex

was required, now it is verbal consent that has to be given. An unconscious victim cannot give verbal assent, ergo it is rape if sex occurs.

[NashvilleLefty]

59. I am 55. A passed put "chick" was considered

"fair game". In fact, if you didn't take advantage of her, then you were accused of sexual deviance or being inadequate.

It's really easy to say "I wouldn't do that" when they have never been put in that position.

[seabeyond]

63. was it the griup of boys? cause that would be 70's. was it the kids you hung out with?

Cause that really was not the norm for a lot of boys

[NashvilleLefty]

72. Yes, it was the mid-70's.

But it was the norm from what i remember. If you can supply info to the contrary I would appreciate it!

But I do think that we should all be proud that we are better informed today than we were in the 70"s

[MineralMan]

233. No, it wasn't the norm then, either.

Unless you were a self-centered frat boy or jock. Then, it just may seem to members of that group like it was the norm. I remember the 60's and 70s very well. When someone drank too much and passed out, the crowd I ran around with would put a blanket over them and let them sleep it off, unmolested. You appear to have run with some different group. Too bad for the victims, eh?

[catbyte]

292. It definitely was NOT the norm in northern MI, NashvilleLefty. I was born in 1955.

A guy did that at a party to one of my passed out classmates. Witnesses told and he ended up spending 4 years in juvenile dentetion, completely ruining a promising football career and most likely his life. The young woman was so devastated her family anded up moving out of state. It was a crime in 1972 Michigan. Don't know Tennessee law, though.

[kestrel91316]

392. It might have been the norm for RWers, but on the left we leaned feminist even then.

You're a liar.

[former-republican]

74. I did my share of drinking and can say I never did that to a passed out woman.

I'm still married to the same girl I dated in high school. Married 29 years now.

Maybe I just wasn't cool back then.

[Beacool]

119. You may not have been "cool",

but you were a better person. Raping an unconscious girl is not cool, it's predatory and criminal. I'm surprised none of these girls accused him and his friends of rape.

[seabeyond]

124. in the 70's it was almost unheard of. nt

[Beacool]

135. Well, that's more the shame of society.

[seabeyond]

140. ya. i do not even know if we talked about date rape until like the later 70's, 80's.

we thought it was stranger in the bushes.

[TeeYiYi]

152. Bullshit.

You're making excuses for yourself.

And what's with all the quotes?

"chick" - meaning not necessarily a chick?

"fair game" - meaning not really fair game except when drunk and passed out?

"I wouldn't do that" - meaning what exactly?...

Yours is one of the worst OPs I've ever seen on DU.

TYY

[Tsiyu]

354. +10000

I hung out in the seventies, and yes, guys tried to do that shit in our group.

The decent guys beat the crap out of them.

IMO, the OP knew it was wrong, knew he was taking advantage, knew it was bad behavior, but let his own criminal leanings convince him it was AOK.

YES, NashvilleLefty: YOU WERE A RAPIST.

[GeorgeGist]

175. Sober up and delete this s hit stir.

[rateyes]

182. Do you read what you write?

the fact that you knew you were "taking advantage of her" reveals the fact you knew it was wrong at the time. The only people who would have considered you a deviant for not "taking" advantage of her" were your fellow deviants.

[trumad]

200. This 55 year old says you are full of shit,

[seabeyond]

258. how do you know. so someone carried them to the room. swept thru the party drunk so and so in

that room passed out. a couple guys gigglin and sneak into the room

do you have any concept the reality of this still happening across the nation? no. you didnt do it. you didnt see it. so it didnt happen.

THAT is what this post is pointing out. while you continued to party, someone elese felt entitled. still happneing today.

gonna pretend otherwise?

[seabeyond]

287. then the opportunity was not there because people took care of the girl. why pretend it doesnt

happen. that was the point. your group took care of friends.

that does not negate my point.

[seabeyond]

298. i am fine with all that. nt

[cali]

294. because YOU hung out with freaks and thugs, sweetiepie. l

your justifications for your criminal acts are disgusting.

[myrna minx]

300. For those curious as to how your fellow Duer jurors view women:

At Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:39 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I am 55. A passed put "chick" was considered
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1904784

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This poster is admitting to rape and defending it! Never have I read anything more inappropriate or offensive.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:58 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The poster is referring to his understanding of past attitudes. As for admitting to rape, people admit to crimes all the time and the admission is generally seen as a positive thing.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Misinformation and ignorance may be offensive, but not over-the-top as the alerter seems to feel.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: sounds more like a "I was a product of my era" rationalization. Maybe he is trying to atone.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: This makes me physically ill.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Poster is admitting to actions which were not considered by society to be rape at the time they were committed.

If I leave belongings on the bus and later return to retrieve them, and they are gone, who's fault is it? The person who took them, of course, is a thief. I've been careless, however, and will not get a lot of sympathy. This is how women who got drunk and passed out at parties were viewed. You may be offended, but that's the historical context.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Utterly offensive to offer a defense of this behaviour simply because it is in the past. The behaviour is absolutely indefensible.

[geardaddy]

319. Wow, juror #5 is blaming the victim

"If I leave belongings on the bus and later return to retrieve them, and they are gone, who's fault is it? The person who took them, of course, is a thief. I've been careless, however, and will not get a lot of sympathy. This is how women who got drunk and passed out at parties were viewed. You may be offended, but that's the historical context. "

[seabeyond]

336. yippers. i wonder if he too... (yes, may be a she, we do that)... has a past

that needs justifying.

[Chemisse]

337. It is true that women didn't get a lot of sympathy decades ago.

They were believed to have been "asking for it" if they so much as wore a short skirt.

[geardaddy]

339. So, that makes it ok then.

Got it.

[hrmjustin]

375. Juror number 5

[Gormy Cuss]

349. Now that you've made clear what era it was, you were a rapist.

It was not acceptable in American society in the 1970s to have sex with a woman who was passed out. It was rape then just as now. I had classmates and family members violated that way. They knew it was rape. They just had differing opinions about whether the courts would back them up or blame them for the assault. Most never sought charges against the perpetrator(s.) I knew a couple of victims who figured they'd deserved it for letting themselves being in the situation.

I realize that your point in the OP is about social pressure and youth playing a part in your perception at the time, but it was called rape even then.

[Luminous Animal]

88. I think you are wrong. I did rape awareness on the U of Delaware in the late 70s...

If a young woman was passed out drunk, she had zero case. The University did nothing. The police did nothing.

[NashvilleLefty]

90. Seriosously? LOL!

It seems that some wanted to avoid paperwork.

[LadyHawkAZ]

115. There was a book printed in the late 70s I think

called "Are You In The House Alone?".

It was a very frightening fictional look at how attitudes toward girls who were raped used to be, and how hard they were to get prosecuted. If you can find a copy of the original work (apparently there's an updated version), you should read it. Try the local library.

[Luminous Animal]

141. Are you kidding me? In the late 70s, an underaged woman was raped & killed after leaving a local bar

Last edited Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:21 AM - Edit history (1)

the focus was NOT that there was a woman who had been raped and killed, the focus was on tightening up checking IDs at the bars door. As if underaged women getting into bars was the problem and not the rapist/murderer.

[adigal]

249. I went to bars starting at age 16, and it was the norm

The drinking age was 18, no one checked IDs, people regulary drove drunk. Funny, all of the people who don't remember the 70s. I can definitely see a group of guys taking advantage of one of the "bad" girls, who got drunk and passed out. It was totally different back then. And I went to, and hung out with, kids from Catholic schools. Supposedly, "moral" kids.

[Marcia Brady]

228. I'm 56 and I knew several girls in college that this happened to

Every single one of them accepted the blame, thought the guys were low-life scum, but never prosecuted, and never even accused them of rape. It was a very different time.

Sad that women had to be saddled with that. The feelings of violation that every rape victim has, plus the guilt of feeling that they were responsible.

[seabeyond]

232. yup. and there is much in our culture today, that is pushing us back for the girl to stfu. nt

[patrice]

42. People call themselves all kinds of things they aren't. Progressive or Liberal, you weren't.

Just because that label was what you thought of as acceptable cover for exploitation, doesn't mean that you were/are progressive.

[NashvilleLefty]

148. Perhaps I wasn't. But I THOUGHT I was.

And that's the point of this post. many people THINK they are something that they really are not.

Also, I wanted to point our how much influence that "peer pressure" has upon our perceptions on the Universe.

I was wrong. I wish that I could take back what I have done. But I can't.

[onpatrol98]

390. Not that it would help the situation...

You've broadcast this on DU, have you (as a reformed rapist) attempted to apologize or given restitution to any of your victims. It can't erase the crime, but seeing how you've given the impression that you've repented, have you approached the victims?

[seabeyond]

393. people have suggest this. i wouldnt want to hear back from a rapist, decades later. i wonder how

others feel

[kestrel91316]

394. You were a sexist pig, and ANYTHING but progressive for it.

[Bonobo]

62. No one I know ever considered it acceptable that wasn't also a piece of shit. nt

[MineralMan]

231. Yah, well, I'm 67 years old.

As long as I have lived having sex with a passed-out person has been rape. Nobody ever condoned such a thing. Ever. It has always been rape, both in the law and morally.

Guys who had sex with women who had passed out from drinking too much are and were rapists. It is that simple. Trying to excuse your past actions won't fly. There is no excuse.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

310. I'm an almost 65-year-old

woman and if I had $10. for every time I had to fight like a hellcat, I'd be rich.

I was blessed with a father who taught me how to drink and when to drink and a mother who took crap from no one. And while you and your friends may have recognized that taking advantage of a passed out woman was rape, there were, and still are, plenty of men being raised under the old double standard.

I grew up in Brooklyn, NY and I well remember being at a party where the liquor flowed freely and one of the guys wasn't taking no for an answer from one of the girls. I came upon the struggle, couldn't get him to stop on my own and went running to get help from the other guys. They thought it was hysterically funny and said "Oh, it's only (girl's name), who cares?" I grabbed a lamp from a table and said, "I'm going to break this lamp over his head if you don't go in there to stop it" Two did just that, but I was never sure if it was for the sake of the girl or the lamp.

Needless to say I never partied with that crowd again, but I was always grateful for a lesson learned early in life.

[seabeyond]

311. yup. nt

[Democrat 4 Ever]

347. I don't find your rationalization that you were young and needed to stick it somewhere as a

sign of your age or the era remotely understandable. Its the same excuse that men have been using since the beginning of time to condone their behavior. THEY need sex and supposedly can't control themselves? Puhleeze. Sorry but your need to stick it somewhere due to your age, hormones or whatever is not a "pass go, collect $200 and become more evolved years later" rationalization. If the young women did not give implicit consent (and yes, even women are allowed to be young, dumb and make mistakes and still be afforded protection not to be violated no matter how bad their party companions needs) you are a rapist. Period. You can try to sugarcoat it anyway you want but you took it upon yourself to use another person for your own pleasure without her consent. Her attending a party where raging hormones are on a seek and destroy mission is not consent.

Do you teach your sons that young, horny and opportunity makes it okay when "sluts" are available? Do you teach your daughters to stay home away from such creatures or they are fair game? It does make good message board fodder as long as the youthful, out-of-control stud muffin of long ago "evolves" decades later. Blech.

[kestrel91316]

391. You're a liar. I'm 55 and that sort of thing was as horrifyingly criminal then as it is now.

[former-republican]

5. .

Just here for the pop corn

[Odin2005]

6. K&R

[NashvilleLefty]

12. TY, I will admit that it was hard posting it.

It's not easy being honest with yourself.

[JI7]

18. what's brave about it ?

[yardwork]

27. The poster admits on a message board that he was a rapist.

In so doing, he's ripping the lid off a secret that a lot of people work hard to maintain. Check out the threads about rape on GD right now - lots of people insisting that everybody knows not to rape. Fact is, a lot of people are confused on this subject. Just like the OP used to be.

It's a public service announcement that is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable in their complacency, make a lot of people rethink some of their assumptions, and - maybe most importantly - make a lot of rape survivors feel that somebody finally told the truth.

[JI7]

33. i don't see confusion , thank god for the sluts, would he have thought it was ok if it was his

sister , mother, or other female in his life who was being treated that way ? after all the guy is confused and doesn't see it's wrong. he doesn't see it as wrong so he wouldn't have thought it wrong if it happened to someone he knew.

[yardwork]

45. Obviously he thinks it's wrong now.

[rateyes]

176. He knew it was wrong at the time he did it..

otherwise, he would have had no need for his victims to pass out to the point they couldnt resist. He was a predator, and the girls were the prey.

Its sad, yes, that people then, and now, make themselves easy prey...but, its even sadder that people have to worry about becoming prey to people like that.

[yardwork]

237. I agree with you. That's why it's important to talk about this.

All these threads involve an argument that "there is no need to teach people that rape is wrong" and we're seeing the evidence that some people don't understand that. It's horrible, but it's better to know the truth than to pretend that everything is fine (and go on blaming the victims).

[kestrel91316]

395. He's playing all of us. He only made the OP to get in a jab about how liberals,

in his mind, were sluts and rapists.

[NashvilleLefty]

69. No, you obviously don't understand anything.

I appreciate that you are trying to apply my experiences to your own, but the fact is that you can't because you haven't experienced what I have.

In case you missed the reference, it means that you are clueless.

I would like to offer you the chance to walk a mile in my moccasins, but I fear that you don't really want the opportunity ans feel so much better standing in judgement of others without bothering to try to understand their point of view.

But I'm just guessing.

[WCLinolVir]

86. Really??? No, REALLY??????

Experienced what YOU experienced??? WTF?????? REALLY??? Do you really think those women don't know that they were assaulted??? WOW. You are one continuously clueless PO*. How about the women you raped? How do they feel?? I'm 53, I don't know how you ever thought what you were doing is marginally ok. You were a douche in denial then and you still are. Go cleanse your filth elsewhere.

[NashvilleLefty]

118. and that is my point!

I was ENCOURAGED to be, as you put it, a "douche".

That is what I am talking about. I considered myself a "decent guy" but now, with honest reflection, I was not.

That is why I posted this - there are actions that many of us guys are encouraged to do, that may not "ok". That may, in effect, be considered Rapist.

I did wrong, I will not deny that. I didn't consider it wrong at the time. THAT is what I want to convey to the younger generation.

[Common Sense Party]

161. You say you were peer presured into it, and encouraged to do these things...

By whom?

It what way?

What words were used to pressure you?

If you really want to help the younger generation, be more specific. Because some of us are having a very hard time imagining a circle of friends who would encourage such sociopathic behavior, and we cannot fathom how one could be enticed into thinking it was okay.

[obamanut2012]

238. You CHOSE to do what you did, you weren't "encouraged"

Take responsibility for your self-admitted rapes.

It was no one's fault but your own.

You still don't get it.

[adigal]

246. I understand what you were saying...I am 51, and the "bad" girls were known to all

And the "good" girls didn't do it. And that was in the late 70s!! Times were so different, younger people cannot imagine. It was also OK to drink and drive. Cops would drive you home if they caught you.

It is easy for others to be judgmental, but you made very good points, and I also applaud that you were honest, and that people who want to understand cultural mores and how they change will find your post very thought-provoking.

[Egnever]

367. My bet is you did the same things

Cause I am just 4 years younger than you and It has never been OK in my lifetime. I think you did the same things in your past and are trying still to justify it to yourself.

[cali]

296. Like none of us experienced peer pressure.

You did more than wrong and you deserve punishment for what you did.

[obamanut2012]

236. You want a poster to have "walked a mile in your shoes"?!

Whatthefucketyfuck.

[kestrel91316]

396. You POOR, POOR, man.

[raccoon]

199. The vast majority of men, IME, have that mindset. It's OK for them to treat some woman

this way, but if it happened to their sister, mother, daughter (oh my!) it's a WHOLE DIFFERENT THING.


THen they think the guy involved is an unredeemable POS and they want to kill him.

This double standard makes me want to puke.

[Egnever]

370. Sorry not buying that bullshit either

The vast majority of men do not have that mindset.

[Smarmie Doofus]

198. +1...... n/t

[countryjake]

213. I'm so sorry for what you've suffered thru, darkangel.

If you wouldn't mind me being so bold as to ask you a personal question, but was the man who attacked you caught and prosecuted?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. In the 1939 movie "The Philadelphia Story," it is strongly implied

(only implied, due to that era's censorship rules), that Katherine Hepburn's character thinks that Jimmy Stewart's character had sex with her while she was passed out after an evening of heavy drinking.

"No," he says, "you were drunk, and there are rules about that sort of thing."

In other words, even in 1939 it was considered wrong to take advantage of a woman just because she was drunk.

[FarCenter]

17. Among Philadelphia bourgeois socialites at least.

The Philadelphia waterfront was probably different.

[yardwork]

28. Do you really think that the wealthy behave better than the poor?

In my experience the opposite is likelier to be true.

[FarCenter]

54. Socioeconomic status, ethnicity, religion, family structure, etc all play a role in sexual attitudes

[yardwork]

252. Yes, and as I stated, I've found that the very wealthy are more likely to behave badly.

[Smarmie Doofus]

280. Hmmm... I always assumed that in super wealthy families women typically had more "clout".

That is... more clout than working class women in their marriages.

It he case of the 1%., wives had wealthy and powerful families of their own to back-them-up; arranged marriage between super-wealthy clans.

It's hard to see how that wouldn't translate down to the power dynamics of the marital relationship. Resulting in a relatively egalitarian relationship between social and fiscal anti-egalitarians.

[seabeyond]

285. assholes and timid comes in all social classes. nt

[yardwork]

357. I'm not wealthy but I've been around wealthy people most of my life.

I grew up on the campus, more or less, of a small liberal arts college. I attended a small private university. I don't know how many of the students were actually the 1% - probably quite a few of them were. I saw a lot of bad behavior. A lot of sexism. A lot of gender stereotyping. Domestic violence. Date rape. Women with eating disorders who felt that they had very little power. Etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

266. Mine, too

I spent a number of years at two Ivy League universities. Believe me, the wealthy often behave in ways that middle class people think only slum dwellers behave.

[gollygee]

267. I agree

what fuels rape is a sense of entitlement, and, in general, the rich have that more than anyone else.

[NashvilleLefty]

22. Well, we didn't have that rule

although we should have.

I'm not talking about "should've" here, but how peer pressure can justify wrong actions in your mind. The actions are still wrong and should not be excused, but they can still happen. We should remove that pressure, and better understand those pressures.

I hope that my example can help us all to understand the problem and eradicate it.

[JI7]

24. so you were peer pressured into raping women ?

[NashvilleLefty]

150. well, in a way.

I cannot deny that I wanted to, nor can I deny that peer pressure affected my decision. It's much more complicated than you try to portray it.

[Tsiyu]

358. Would it have been less complicated

if YOU had passsed out and some "gotta have mah sex" rapist stuck his penis in YOU?

Would that help uncomplicate your behavior? Or would you have felt yourself a "drunk slut" who "deserved it?"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

275. There's this concept called a "gentleman"

Maybe it's old-fashioned and a bit class-ridden, but it includes being honest, trustworthy, respectful of other people, and masculine without being mean, crude, or dumb.

According to what I've seen in older books and movies, it didn't necessarily have anything to do with social class. A rich man could be insulted with, "You, sir, are no gentleman!" if he broke the social codes by lying, cheating, taking advantage of unwilling women, or getting nasty drunk.

Similarly, a poor man could be praised in words something like, "Despite his humble station, he is a true gentleman."

Much of contemporary American pop culture seems to have confused masculinity with being mean, crude, and dumb.

[seabeyond]

279. exactly. and another post that is right on the mark. nt

[ieoeja]

372. I am no gentlemen. But I sure as hell am not a rapist either. n/t

[Bonobo]

66. +1

A rapist is a rapist. I am tired of reading all the insinuations that most men engage in this.

The line is not the blurry to most people.

A rapist is a rapist. An abuser is an abuser. Man or woman.

Stop blanket insinuations of guilt for all men, I say.

[MADem]

116. In the MOVIES under the new(ish) Hayes Code in 1939, there were rules about that sort of thing.

In the movies, the women who were not "virtuous" wore clothes that were too tight and too low cut and too flashy with a bit too much makeup. That way you could see 'em coming a mile away! The "rough" men who were not gentlemen didn't take off their hats in front of ladies, smoked without asking permission, and didn't stand up when a lady came in the room.

Also, in the films, there were no "shotgun weddings" in 1939, because there were only pecks on the cheek at the door, with "Paw" looking out the window or flicking the porch light on and off.

There were no adoptions from shamed teen mothers in the 1939 movies (except where the parents "died in a car crash&quot and the first baby never came anytime, while the rest took nine months.

I don't think, though, that gentlemen were always gentlemanly in real life--the movies sanitized everything back then. At least from 1930 to 1968, that is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code

[Lydia Leftcoast]

286. The Motion Picture Production Code allowed all sorts of implications and in-jokes

that the censors didn't catch.

In The Philadelphia Story, Katherine Hepburn's character doesn't come out and say that she's worried about having been raped while drunk, but it's clearly implied.

Think of another 1939 movie, Gone With the Wind. When Rhett Butler carries Scarlett O'Hara up the stairs, does any adult think he's doing so just to practice weightlifting?

The filmmakers had many sneaky ways of implying that characters had had sex with each other (cf. The African Queen), had been raped (cf. Johnny Belinda), were gay (cf. The Third Man, All About Eve), or had otherwise done things that the Hays Office disapproved of.

Of course, not all men were gentlemanly in real life, but the IDEAL was still prevalent in society.

[MADem]

315. The point of the Motion Picture Code, though, was that "bad things" did not happen, because the

characters were "good" and the ones that were not would get their comeuppance in the end.

Scarlett and Rhett were MARRIED in that scene--and back then, the Droit de Seigneur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur rights extended to the prevailing views about marriages--heck, the Hayes Code saw nothing wrong with men "getting a little rough" with women, so long as they didn't leave a mark and the two parties were married. How many scenes passed Hayes muster where some yokel forcefully kisses a woman who doesn't want to be kissed, only, since the guy is SUCH a good kisser, and "The Right Guy" for that unreasonably tempestuous woman, she changes her mind and stops whaling on the clown? That's a standard scene in more films than we can count.

The issue isn't "s-e-x" in those scenes; sex was ALWAYS implied (blowing curtains, panning to the fireplace where the flames LEAP up; panning out the window to angry weather, or down to the sea where the waves crash dramatically...those were cues for "s-e-x" just as surely as flowers were cues for love and affection in silent films.

When the Hayes Code films dealt with "unsavory" topics (not marital sex, but premarital sex or rape, for example), they were only allowed to so do if the "bad guy" got his comeuppance. You could vaguely refer to some poor woman being "interfered with" so long as the "interferer" died a horrible death.

Nothing went on the screen to encourage any sort of turpitude, either. Bedrooms always had either two twin beds, or one foot on the floor. Kisses were timed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayes_code

Resolved, That those things which are included in the following list shall not appear in pictures produced by the members of this Association, irrespective of the manner in which they are treated:

Pointed profanity – by either title or lip – this includes the words "God," "Lord," "Jesus," "Christ" (unless they be used reverently in connection with proper religious ceremonies), "hell," "damn," "Gawd," and every other profane and vulgar expression however it may be spelled;
Any licentious or suggestive nudity-in fact or in silhouette; and any lecherous or licentious notice thereof by other characters in the picture;
The illegal traffic in drugs;
Any inference of sex perversion;
White slavery;
Miscegenation (sex relationships between the white and black races);
Sex hygiene and venereal diseases;
Scenes of actual childbirth – in fact or in silhouette;
Children's sex organs;
Ridicule of the clergy;
Willful offense to any nation, race or creed;

And be it further resolved, That special care be exercised in the manner in which the following subjects are treated, to the end that vulgarity and suggestiveness may be eliminated and that good taste may be emphasized:

The use of the flag;
International relations (avoiding picturizing in an unfavorable light another country's religion, history, institutions, prominent people, and citizenry);
Arson;
The use of firearms;
Theft, robbery, safe-cracking, and dynamiting of trains, mines, buildings, etc. (having in mind the effect which a too-detailed description of these may have upon the moron);
Brutality and possible gruesomeness;
Technique of committing murder by whatever method;
Methods of smuggling;
Third-degree methods;
Actual hangings or electrocutions as legal punishment for crime;
Sympathy for criminals;
Attitude toward public characters and institutions;
Sedition;
Apparent cruelty to children and animals;
Branding of people or animals;
The sale of women, or of a woman selling her virtue;
Rape or attempted rape;
First-night scenes;
Man and woman in bed together;
Deliberate seduction of girls;
The institution of marriage;
Surgical operations;
The use of drugs;
Titles or scenes having to do with law enforcement or law-enforcing officers;
Excessive or lustful kissing, particularly when one character or the other is a "heavy."[16]

If you look at a lot of the "pre-Code" films, aka the "Forbidden Hollywood" era, you can actually see things like NIPPLES under dresses or silks, and other licentious and ooh-la-la naughty things, like infidelity and prostitution, displayed with no small degree of vigor. Barbara Stanwyck, the prim and tough matriarch of The Big Valley, got her start as a very "hot" actress in pre-code Hollywood.

It took a "hell" of a lot of convincing to allow the "damn" in "Frankly my dear, I don't give a ....." The censors were originally reticent, and the studio had to lean on them hard to get that through, on the basis that the story would be too diluted otherwise.

Once the sixties hit, the Motion Picture code was on the ropes, and was replaced with the rating system, where everything is "allowed" but the producer may pay a price with the rating the film receives.

[dchill]

143. "you were drunk, and there are rules about that sort of thing."

True in 1939, '49, '59, '69, '79, '89, '99... True then, true now - always true. It's rape, and it's ugly. Jimmy Stewart's character was right. Not corny, not naive - right.

"Took advantage..." = rape.

[pnwmom]

158. Those rules applied only to men with a strong sense of ethics.

The fact that Hepburn's character thought something had happened shows that it was a common occurrence, or believed to be, anyway.

[deutsey]

218. The first movie that came to mind when I read this was "Animal House" in '78

The scene where Pinto (I think that was his frat name) was with the drunk girl (the one who turned out to be underage, too) at the toga party.

She passes out in the middle of them making out and then a little devil appears on the guy's shoulder telling him to "fuck her." An angel appears on the other shoulder saying it wouldn't be right to do so.

It's been a while since I've seen the movie, but I think Pinto chooses not to rape her and is called something derogatory by the devil on his shoulder that challenges his manhood.

The whole scene is played for laughs.

[seabeyond]

221. exactly. i was feeling that reading it also. and yes, that scene was one people were suppose to

laugh at and i sat there .... not feeling so comfortable or amused or entertained.

[arcane1]

320. He gives a sly look to the camera and leans toward the woman as the scene fades out

He did it, and we were supposed to laugh. That movie was my first thought after reading the OP too

[deutsey]

322. There's no doubt he has sex with her later after he learns she's 13

[Lasher]

10. Well

[seabeyond]

13. the girls were passed out and that was cool for you? and people are thanking you

For being honest, sharing, posting this?

You did not know tucking a girl passed out was wrong?

Edit. This upsets my stomach. Posters are eating popcorn as if it is entertainment. You know, rape porn entertainment. And I am feeling sick. This is surreal. But, I read how hard this is for you to post. I get why you posted this. Sad. Incredibly sad. But... ok. Popcorn eaters, what is your excuse

[NashvilleLefty]

30. No, it was totally wrong.

But at the time I justified it to be right. I felt justified at the time because it was socially justified.

Thank you for your support. As for the popcorn eaters, they are perpetual observers, unable to take a stand one way or the other.

Again, thank you for your support! It was hard to admit this to myself, more than anyone else.

[rateyes]

191. it was not socially justified. It was illegal.

[Bonobo]

68. In my college says, lots of frat boys were famous for it.

One reason I despised them as I did.

[seabeyond]

73. sigh... you and i are gonna bond on this one, arent we.

lol. teasin. i needed a little lite. this is a heavy OP.

there is so much in it.

yes, particular groups. the boys would encourage each other. justify and validate it for each other. would only take one to be brave enough to say no fuckin way, that is rape,.... yet they didnt. they stayed quiet. and they raped.

and yes, i believe they know... but, they tell themselves not. cause, they will DIE if they dont.

i know. MOST boys did not do this and knew different.

frat boys would be the ones able to play the masculinity, you do it or you are a "girl" scenario.

[Bonobo]

78. It is crowd psychology as has no morality.

Anyone in a crowd more easily derives their sense of what is acceptable behavior from the crowd and loses their own personal moral compass, as you know. It has been shown time and time again in experiments.

It is shameful and yes, it IS rape culture among those horrible little enclaves.

[seabeyond]

80. yes. exactly. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

79. I never encountered any frat boys

but I can say for certain that the idea wasn't limited to fraternities.

[Bonobo]

82. Yeah, I know that. But it thrives more easily in a tight-knit group. nt

[white_wolf]

147. I do rather loath frat boys.

Of course I'm not a fan of sorority girls either. I'm sure I'm sterotyping here, but I always view the frat boys as the jocks who picked on me in school and the sorority girls as the girls who though they were too good to talk to me when I said hi. The rape culture is just one more reason on my long list of reasons I can't stand them.

[seabeyond]

149. you made me laugh.

Of course I'm not a fan of sorority girls either.

i am not much of a group person myself. but, ya.

[gollygee]

227. At my college (in the late 80s)

SOME frats were known for this, and SOME sports teams, but not all. Different groups had different standards or something. But you'd hear from other students about which frat parties to avoid because of sexually aggressive behavior in general - potentially rape but also crude really aggressive sexual teasing, and just an overall atmosphere of groping and unwanted sexual attention.

[ieoeja]

374. Because frat rats were immune from prosecution.

And apparently it was different depending on the college. Occasionally some dormie's friend who was in a fraternity in another college would come to visit Indiana University where we were. They would always want to pop by the IU house for their frat. Then return to our dorm shaken up by the things they had witnessed.

For that matter we had a frat dropout move into our dorm who said he dropped out because he could not stop the raping.

But there was no point calling the police. My dad talked to the Chief of Police about it once. He told my dad it was infuriating and the thing that most ate away at his men. But the few times prosecution was tried, the fraternity would send in the troops. With billions of dollars for a defense team, the prosecution didn't stand a chance.

I graduated in 1984 which was one year too early. I went back to visit once and found a lot of people walking around with black arm bands while most people were mocking them. A few days before my visit, somebody's boyfriend burnt down the frat house where his girlfriend was gang raped. A couple of frat rats died.

And the non-frat students were celebrating!

Sounds evil, but I wish I'd been around for the full celebration.

[cilla4progress]

14. Wow, I appreciate your humble

and candid admission.

I come from an era where I know what you are talking about. I was "loose" in college. It was the time of the "Zipless Fuck," Erica Jong's book, Fear of Flying, and it inspired and freed young women to explore and expand their sexuality. Do I regret any of it? No. Did I feel taken advantaged of? No. Did I feel more used than a user? No. It was an age of the "one night stand." What is now called hooking up. Was the sex good? No! It takes more than one night to get in sync. This was just barely before AIDS, and after syphilis, gonorrhea, and the pill. There were also diaphragms and IUDs. A little shot of penicillin, and possibly a D&C, and you were on your way.

Just telling it like it was ... for me (in the 70s).

[seabeyond]

37. true all that. that was my time. early 80's. but passed out girls?

No. That was clearly raps. Didn't mean it didn't happen.

[cilla4progress]

60. Y'know I was not aware of date rape drugs

at the time. Pot. Hashish. A little booze. Maybe it was cultural. Maybe I was lucky. For me it was consensual, though I wouldn't recommend it. Meaningless and baseless. Just made me feel free and empowered at the time - in charge of my sexuality. I recognize this is a different dynamic than that of which you speak, although I was aware (more in high school, than college) of the stereotype of the "slut" you are discussing. Big change between high school and college.

Reminds me of "Splendor in the Grass." Fabulous 60s era film on this topic.

[seabeyond]

75. again, i was right in the time where date rape drug comes out and gals werent informed. aids and we

didnt know.

i am not talking about "sluts", lol.

in the early 80's one night stands were the thing.... meh. i feel kinda exactly the same as you.

[WCLinolVir]

96. Well it's a bit different when you actually give consent.

[cilla4progress]

288. Yes, I agree,

ENTIRELY different.

Maybe OP thought he had consent, given the circumstances, expectations, predictability of the situation?

[LeftyMom]

15. You needed education to know not to fuck people who were in no condition to consent?

It never occurred to you that a woman in no condition to say yes or no was in no condition to enjoy it? That using a passed out woman as a warm fleshlight is wrong?

You needed a class to tell you to keep your dick out of passed out drunks? Really?

You're a rapist. You raped people. Repeatedly, by your own admission.

A serial rapist.

You should be in prison.

[NashvilleLefty]

49. When you put it that way

yes. I can't argue. But that is not the way it was back then.

Yes, by today's standards I would be considered a rapist. By the standards that I grew up by I was just considered a Red-Bloodied American Male. I was raised to be a rapist. I was expected to be a rapist.

[Common Sense Party]

120. I think that is the most screwed-up definition of "Red Blooded American Male" I've ever heard.

And I don't think it was shared by most men.

Maybe in your small, perverted group of "friends" it was considered "normal."

But most people definitely would have considered that immoral, wrong, rape, plain and simple.

[UtahLib]

138. You were raised to be a rapist?

That statement seems to verify my opinion while reading your comments and assertions. Are you actually saying that you raped women because your parents never mentioned to you that the act of having sex with a woman who is unable to accept or refuse is rape? Are you putting the blame on them? It's very hard for me to believe that you didn't know you were doing something wrong. By saying "hey, I considered any girl who was stupid enough to pass out fair game or a slut", you are letting yourself off pretty easy. Is this OP intended to clear your conscience or to convince yourself and others that you've finally seen the light? I'm not sure which.

[rateyes]

179. I grew up at the same time as you, and

that was not the standard. You may have been considered a red-blooded American male by your fellow rapists. You were considered a predatory asshole by the rest of us.

[MineralMan]

241. No. A "red-blooded American Male" would have pulled

you off that passed-out girl and beaten the crap out of you. That girl might have been his sister. Screw that as an excuse.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

276. See my post #275

I am aware that some men raise their sons to be "studs."

There were cases a few years back in which groups of "respectable" suburban lads vied with one another to see who could screw the most girls, or, in one case, there was a gang rape of a mentally handicapped girl. Many of the men in those communities tended to think that it was just "red-blooded American males" having fun.

But GENTLEMEN have never done so.

[Orrex]

303. Forgive me, but that's a load of crap

You and I are of similar age, and at no time in my life have I thought it ok to rape unconscious women. Even decades ago I knew that there were peer groups that enabled this sort of thinking, but auch attitudes struck me as so self-evidently vile that I wouldn't associate with such groups. Nor can I now excuse such associations simply on the basis of "that's how it was." "How it was" was wrong, and I have no sympathy for a person unable to comprehend this basic truth.

I suppose that there is some bravery in admitting to this disgusting and criminal behavior years after the fact. You should contact the women you raped and ask them how they feel about it. They're the ones who can grant you absolution, and not some anonymous internet forum.

[seabeyond]

305. I knew that there were peer groups that enabled this sort of thinking

but, that is the point. it wasnt you. it wasnt the majority of the guys in that day. i know. i grew up with the guys like you. BUT

I knew that there were peer groups that enabled this sort of thinking

it was there. you and i know it was there.

[obamanut2012]

51. I agree 100%

I texted my father, and he said even guys back in his day knew that was rape.

[geardaddy]

328. +1000 n/t

[Incitatus]

19. yes nt

[seabeyond]

41. huge mistake on my part. using fire in bed. heavy OP. thinking as i was reading.... my bad.

Last edited Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:33 AM - Edit history (1)

[LadyHawkAZ]

48. I think they were answering the question in the thread title n/t

[seabeyond]

56. oh lordy. thank you. i totally forget the op. i will have to see what the? is.

Oh... I feel better for that anyway. Thanks

[LadyHawkAZ]

122. Tablets...

can't live with 'em, can't smash 'em with a big rock.

I wake up every morning with at least 1 thread in the trash can that wasn't supposed to be, from scrolling on the touchscreen.

[seabeyond]

130. yes. lol. but, for a quick peek

before bed, it works well. just hate really typing much of any reply on them. i am going ot be sorry in the morning. i get up early.

[Incitatus]

52. Ladyhawk is correct.

I was answering the OP's question.

[seabeyond]

58. i see. was i a rapist... sigh.

My bad. I am going to have to get out of bed and get on lap top to fix all this. Sorry

[libdem4life]

21. And underage drinking and driving when drunk and partying when one should be studying and not

wasting parent's money and not hazing (assuming this is the history of a male college student) ...the list goes on. Rape and Sluts?...Really? Seems a bit of baiting and/or self-flagellation going on here.

Part of growing up is learning to be responsible for one's own actions...men and women alike...as you have.

[seabeyond]

44. sex with passed out girls is just among the list of yours. nt

[libdem4life]

94. or with passed out boys. Both genders are responsible for their behavior.

If either drove drunk and injured someone, there would be no gender excuse nor should there be. Bad judgment has consequences and if the parents have not been able to make that distinction, then it will likely be a social learning experience. Alcohol is not a free pass for bad behavior.

[WilliamPitt]

26. It has come to this.

Durr Hurr Kabuki Theater Maybe It Was Rape Hurr Durr...

Enjoy what's coming to you, hoss.

It's coming.

Ugh.

[seabeyond]

47. are you serious.

Seems like it was a norm....

Read thru thread to this point.

[TorchTheWitch]

190. it absolutely was NOT a norm

And the OP still takes no full responsibility for his actions by blaming peer pressure from the sicko creeps he hung out with and society and he and his sicko buddies chose to see it. He also claims he was not a rapist according to the law back then when he bloody well was. I can't for the life of me think why you are defending this rapist who after all this time STILL can't figure out that no, it was NOT normal in society outside his group of sicko buddies and other similar cretins with that disgusting mind set, that NO, he STILL can't manage to figure out that yes indeed he raped those women both morally and legally, and that he CHOSE to treat women like pieces of meat to be used to essentially jerk off in.

[raccoon]

201. IME it was a norm back then. Yes, it was rape and no it wasn't OK.

But again, IME, many people thought that way at the time.

[TorchTheWitch]

208. It was only normal for rapists

For fuck's sake, NO, it was not considered socially acceptable to rape someone back then. That's why they chose to do it when the woman was in a condition where she was unable to consent. They KNEW it was not socially acceptable and KNEW it was illegal and chose to do it anyway under those conditions because it would be unlikely she would remember what happened to her and who it was so that they could most likely get away with it. What planet are you on that it was considered normal at that time for men to treat women as nothing but something to jerk off into?

Yes, many men thought that way at the time just as they do now and just as they always have. Because society has always had its share of rapists that make excuses as to why they don't believe they are and blame society for their criminal violent actions. Claiming that it was considered normal for men to rape women in the 70's is crock of unmitigated BULLSHIT just as much as it is today.

[obamanut2012]

239. No, they didn't

Unless they were sociopaths.

[obamanut2012]

211. It was NOT the norm

It was considered wrong then, too, even if they some didn't call it rape. The OP's own words show this wasn't the norm, it predator behavior.

Talk to older men you know -- my father read the OP (I copied it and sent it to him after texting about it), and he said it was BS, and he's considerable older than the OP.

[seabeyond]

219. i was in bed, reading a little fire, and kinda blown away from the OP. reading down the thread, i

saw two more, htat i thought they were saying. yup, been there done that. that is why i said, appears to be a norm. at least one, i made a mistake with his "yes" answer. i did not remember there was a question in the OP and that is what he was responding to. it was the start of the thread, and i didnt even know if the OP was serious. but, yuk was descending on me rapidly, reading other posts that i thought they were agreeing they did the same.

[rainin]

290. Unless you are a sociologist, how can you say what the norm was?

I find it incredulous that someone asks their father to confirm what the normal is for a time period. Wow! That's just ignorance. Norms vary from one neighborhood to another, from one town to another, from one college to another. If the OP says it was the norm where he lived, you have to accept his assertion at face value without evidence to the contrary. Perhaps you are a sociologist and you studied the people in his peer group during that time period. Then you should tell us about the results of your studies. Otherwise, you simply can't say it wasn't the norm where he lived, at the time he experienced it, just because it was different for someone else. Come on people. Stick to the arguments that you can make, like values and virtue. You can always argue that he should have known and that he could have stood up to his peers. He was wrong to do what he did. Course, I think he already said that, so even that would be redundant. You could argue he should be in jail. That's an argument that makes sense. Can we talk about this intelligently?

[limpyhobbler]

31. Thanks for your honesty. How many people have you raped?

[Blue_In_AK]

32. Listen, I understand perfectly what you're saying

having been on the other end of that equation and not considering myself raped even though I "went along to get along" on more than one occasion when I really didn't want to. Assuming you're talking about late '60s, early '70s, it was a much different time.

Also if sexual harassment in the workplace had been illegal back then, I'd be a rich woman today for all the lawsuits I could have won.

As long as you know the difference now, don't beat yourself up about it.

[Mojorabbit]

318. yes it was a much different time.

There was a cultural shift and boundaries were perhaps not as clear as they were before and after. I am happy I grew up then but there were some painful lessons along the way. I also would be a wealthy woman if there had been sexual harassment laws especly when I started working as a young nurse.

[LiberalAndProud]

34. Yes, but I do get what you're saying here.

Does anyone remember the movie Kids (1995). I watched it with my then teen daughters. When I expressed disgust at the rape of a girl passed out at a party, my daughters said, "It happens. That's reality."

This isn't a fun conversation, but we need to have it.

[NashvilleLefty]

55. "This isn't a fun conversation, but we need to have it."

yes, we do.

the conversations that aren't "fun" are the ones we need to have the most.

[liberal_at_heart]

57. exactly

[LiberalAndProud]

70. I think I was more shocked

at my daughters' matter-of-fact attitude about the episode. It was as if they were saying "get with the times, mom." There I was, thinking I was raising strong, self-aware women. It was a WTF moment. The attitude that you confess to is a testament to our culture of rape, and an indictment.

[seabeyond]

85. i think it is more that they have to be numb to it, and that is the matter of fact you hear. so

they do not have to think too deeply about it. what it is saying. as adults we can process it better than the kids.

[LiberalAndProud]

105. Maybe.

Around that same time one of the tv magazines (60 Minutes or 20-20, I really don't remember) produced a piece on a town where VD was running rampant because every teen was having sex with every other teen in town. Young girls talked candidly on camera about 'sandwiching' and other various sexual escapades. That was the cool thing to be doing, according to the children (and they were children) who agreed to be interviewed. It seemed the parents had no clue at all that this was going on. The piece aired close on the heels of conversation described above. It was a time of frightening revelation for me.

[seabeyond]

117. ya. but, how many parents had conversation with the kids

i had heard about where the guys line up, they convince a 12, 13 yr old girl to go down the row giving blow jobs.

you can bet i had a conversation with my boys. the total disrespect for the girl. i dont give a shit if she acts like she is ok. she wants to be liked. she doesnt get it will do the opposite. the boys are using horribly and i expect the boys to say no. dont do this. go home. and if not, walk out the door....

point is we talked about it at an earlier age they would have experienced. they had time to think about what i said if they ever came into a situation like that, they had already processed it in their mind. they were not going to be left to try to figure it out, in a short time.

all these kids are, just kids.

they need to be aware, prepared, and have thought it thru before they experience this stuff.

[LiberalAndProud]

126. Exactly, seabeyond.

That is exactly it! We have come full circle to NL's final sentence. "Therefore, I support education about Rape."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

302. When I read an article about that going on among 12- and 13-year-olds,

I thought back to myself at that age and wondered why such young adolescents were being left unsupervised.

When I was that age, the parents didn't hover around like chaperones, but they would come in at unpredictable intervals "to see if you need any more popcorn" or to say "the music's a bit too loud."

[seabeyond]

304. an empty house was another conversation i had with my boys. not gonna happen

we are lucky, i was able to stay home.

but, ya.

[NashvilleLefty]

87. Yes, it doesn't matter what we think about it

it is a fact of life.

It's how we react to it that's important.

And that is what we need to discuss, without all the other distractions. Which means we have to be honest about our motivations.

[flvegan]

36. So it's all about you, then?

I love a justification of "at the time, no" and the many etc, but then reality checks in.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

"Fair game" and "sluts" oh baby, good luck with this one.

[WCLinolVir]

93. Sure is all about him, cause if I didn't know any better,

I'd have to say the douche feels sorry FOR HIMSELF!!!! Notice any sympathy for the devastating effects of rape to the women he raped? No.

[hrmjustin]

38. I hope you and anyone that you were with can heal from this.

[liberal_at_heart]

39. I dated a drunk who verbally abused me

He would call me names and would manipulate and coerse me into having sex when I was a teenager. He would fondle me and try to have sex with me every single time we ever saw each other. Although the act was voluntary I always felt like I had been violated.

NashvilleLefty,
There is a saying. We do the best we can, when we know better we do better. There is nothing you can do about what you did in the past. What you can do is what you are doing now which is realize the mistake and try to make it better. Talking about it and educating others is a great first step. Make sure you treat women with respect from now on and try to educate young men that they need to treat young women with respect.

[G_j]

46. acknowleding your candor, you have a lot further to go

in saying instead "I am a rapist"", of course that is very difficult! Or you could say "I was".
For having sex with an unconsenting person is rape. I believe you that some may have considered that acceptable behavior. That reflects how extremely sick our culture is. Perhaps you could help teach others, but you would have to be very clear with yourself first.

[Berserker]

50. Passed out girls?

Dude WTF? We were all young and horny but christ never passed out girls what kind of man were you? I would have kicked your ass even back then and it was NEVER considered Acceptable Behavior.

[downandoutnow]

64. Confused and shocked like a lot of others --

When was fucking PASSED OUT girls EVER not rape?

If I understand you correctly, that's what you're talking about. Drunk and sloppy girls, girls who may be conscious but, unbeknownst to you, in an alcoholic blackout -- those scenarios are up for debate. But I certainly don't buy this "oh, it was a different time" hooey. What time?
The 1200s? Riding with the Mongol Hordes?

And by the way, I'm male, born 1968. I don't rape with YOU!

[FightForMichigan]

65. I can't congratulate you

I don't find your admission here very brave, even though it is honest. I don't think you're to be lauded for finally accepting the correct word for what you did.

I can't, because as a volunteer, I go to the hospital to be an advocate for people who have just been sexually assaulted. You don't want to know how many times I have heard stories just like yours, but from the other side. Stories from people who are weeping, or disoriented from the trauma, or humiliated and blaming themselves, or just plan hurt and angry. I have been a counselor to several of them, and what might have been a night of amusement for someone like you is often years of pain and healing for someone like them.

You've placed the right word to what you've done, but do you really know what it means? Do you have any idea how you have hurt people? Can you comprehend it?

In an ideal world, I'd like you to do more than just post about this anonymously on a board. I'd want you to get involved. Reach out to your local rape crisis center and ask what you can do. Talk to teenage boys and educate fraternity members.

Do something real.

Please.

[agracie]

133. A dose of reality in just the right amount,

and I thank you for identifying the true victim(s) of this sad mess.

[Odin2005]

261. + Infinity!

[Solly Mack]

71. Damn. Double damn.

Wow.

[FightForMichigan]

76. Also, let's be clear

You were a rapist at the time, just like someone who does it now is.

You were not raised to rape or expected to, you chose to.

Until you take full accountability, your confession is meaningless.

[TorchTheWitch]

162. ^This!^

No one considered that acceptable behavior other than rapist cretins even back then. Just as now the same type of rapist cretins think it's acceptable behavior. No male in my family would ever God damn dream of doing such a disgusting thing and never hang out with anyone that did and would very likely clobber whatever cretin was in their midst trying to do it and calling the police.

What was different is how much the judicial system DESPITE the law was willing to apportion enough blame on the female victim for her "bad female" behavior whether it was how she dressed, where she went, what time she was there, whether or not she drank or did drugs, whether or now she was considered "loose" sexually, etc. so that the rapists weren't often punished for it. Why? Because it was still so much of a male dominated society where there were plenty of male police, male lawyers, male judges and male and "good female" jurors that were willing to let off a rapist because they DID believe that "bad females" were always somewhat responsible for being raped because of their "bad female" actions.

And those people still exist. There just isn't so many of them anymore through education over time and women becoming part of the judicial system from police officers, judges, lawyers, etc. that those excuses just don't cut it anymore though it sure doesn't stop the cretins that believe "bad female" behavior makes such a female somewhat responsible for being raped that they seek out other excuses to try letting a rapist off like the "maybe she likes rough sex" excuse or the "maybe she wasn't really passed out but just really drunk" excuse or the "impossible to rape someone when they're asleep" excuse, etc.... the latter I might add was all over DU when the Assange rape story first came out completely conveniently forgetting that it's rape upon the very moment of penetration, not when the rapist has completed the rape.

I absolutely agree that until taking full responsibility for his actions instead of blaming it on the rapist cretins he hung out with at the time and their pressuring him the confession is not only totally meaningless but an affront. As a victim of rape I'm sickened that any quasi-admitted rapist is allowed to be here when they still haven't taken that full responsibility for their actions.

[KatyMan]

245. +1

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. This makes me SOOOO sad that anyone even debates when it's "OK" to have sex and when it's not...

Guys... here's a clue...

When she's taking HER OWN clothes off, totally coherent, RACING you to nudity, breathless and almost giggling... You're (almost) "In Like Flint" (EVEN then, maybe she just wants to roll in the sheets naked, and NOT have sex).

In ANY other situation? You might be a rapist.

There BETTER BE AN UNQUALIFIED "Let's do it NOW" before you proceed.

Otherwise? Consider yourself lucky she's even making out with you.

Beyond that... you're quite possibly forcing yourself on someone who wants to "make out" and nothing more.

As a Father, I'd kill you without a second thought for crossing that line, and gladly suffer the consequences.

[AlexSatan]

254. Even drunk girls can do what you described here (nt)

[Warpy]

81. Obviously, no one ever taught you that beating off into another

human being's body is wrong.

That's really the big problem. Teenaged boys are not taught not to rape. They have to pick that up when they get older, especially if they produce daughters.

[Bonobo]

83. You do not have to be taught not to rape if all other things are equal.

Raise your kids to respect others and they will get it whether you explicitly teach THAT or not.

It goes with being a good human being and I reject the idea that being a rapist is the default.

In fact, I reject it strenuously.

[liberal_at_heart]

91. I've seen young boys who were never taught to respect girls

when those boys turn into teenagers all they see is a pair of boobs, a butt, and a vagina. They don't see them as a person with feelings. Seeing the opposite sex as more than just boobs and a vagina is something that has to be taught.

[Bonobo]

98. Not if they are taught to respect other people. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

99. that's the point

They do need to be taught.

[Bonobo]

106. Yes, to respect people.

On the other hand, if they never learned that to begin with and, furthermore, if they don't see women as people, then only threats will work. Threats, law enforcement and perhaps a good beating.

My point is that rapists are people that have not learned to respect people and have not learned that women are people.

Maybe we are saying the same thing in two different ways.

[seabeyond]

102. true. but this is taught to respect because you have all the other social factors that teach

otherwise.

i have been saying for years, i talk to my boys about all this stuff and so much more. respect is the bottom line in our house with so many things. that includes political, religious, parents, lol, and respecting the kids so they can feel it, see it, know it. and self respect is a big one. dont respect self, cant respect others.

but... as a parent that is very time consuming. lots of parents, too many dont do that.

what if you have a father that has taught his son that this is who his rightful role is. what if he has a mother that has said.... meh, boys will be boys and promoted this.

that is why i have never been one to create monsters, out of these situations. wrong, hell ya. but... it is why i so advocate that boys need to be taught what rape is, because if they are not being taught at home, they are picking up what society teaches them. i dont think they are throw away.

[Bonobo]

112. Okay, agreed.

It is terribly hard for me to imagine that there are boys who think rape is okay but who are not fucked up in other ways too.

For example, here is a paradox: Killing people on the order of the government is okay. You must see them as less than human, BUT rape is not okay. Treating humans as humans DEMANDS ethically that rape cannot happen, but teaching that murder is okay creates a paradox in which, it seems to me, ANY treatment of another human could be rationalized.

[seabeyond]

123. absolutely.

that is why chain of command is so important and they must always have a solid line that can never be crossed. and that is why our military is failing now. it is the chain of command that has failed our women in the military. but, our men too. those men need the chain of command to keep that line strong. when one harassment is allowed to stand then the line gets blurry until you have 1 of 3 women in army raped.

chain of command take it seriously and have a clear line on harassment, the rape would not be nearly as large.

same with police department.

same with religion.

you are stripping these people to their basis and then creating. huge responsibility. and one of the things done is making them dependent on that chain of command, or preacher. the dont do their job, they fail the person.

[Beacool]

110. Popular culture doesn't help either.

Even toddlers are sexualized. Kids are no longer allowed to keep their innocence.

[Warpy]

111. And that's why so many of us get raped.

Thanks a LOT.

Face it, what you're doing is NOT WORKING.

[Bonobo]

131. I can only speak for my role as father of two boys and yes, it is working.

Others are not raising their children right and, that being said, it is going to take a lot of work to straighten them out once they are grown.

[Lars39]

114. Part of being an adult is realizing that not every place has the same

societal norms. Not every one was raised the same, with parents who thought the same as yourn own,who had the same anything. What can be normal behavior in one city won't be the same even in a neighboring town. And yes, when some boys are raised without repeated explicit info, bad things can happen. Or even with multiple repeated info, 'cause maturity has not occurred. The 70s were a different time for sure, still very much a man's world in so many ways.

[MineralMan]

248. This teenaged boy was taught not to rape.

My father taught me that. We didn't have a talk about reproduction; we had a talk about how a man should behave in sexual situations. My father is a very honorable person, and he raised his children to do the right thing in any situation. We had lots of talks about lots of situations. I graduated from high school in 1963. It was very, very clear to me that forcing myself on someone else when they could not give eager, willing consent was rape.

I can't speak for other teenagers of the day, but I was sure taught not to rape. Rape is simply wrong. Period.

[hrmjustin]

84. I was raped by an ex-boyfriend in HS after I told him I never wanted to see him again.

I took me years to get over it. I still have issues with men to this day because of it. It took time and good friends to get through this point in my life. I was 17 at the time. When I was 28 he called me to say how sorry he was for what he did, and needed to make it right. The fact was he contracted HIV in his early 20's, and by the time of his late 20's he developed cancer and could not be saved. I saw him several times before he died, and I gave him my full forgiveness and love in the hope that he would meet his maker with a clean heart.
I tell you this to let you know that people can forgive. I wish you and the people you were talking about peace and healing. God bless.

[LadyHawkAZ]

89. hrmjustin...

you probably have more kindness and courage than any three people in this thread put together.



I could not have done what you did, but I commend you for doing it.

[hrmjustin]

92. Thank you! It was tough, but I needed to let the pain go.

[LadyHawkAZ]

103. I am very glad you were able to heal

to you.

[liberal_at_heart]

95. your post says it all

I'm sorry you had to go through that and I am glad you were able to heal and forgive.

[hrmjustin]

97. Thank you!

[Beacool]

101. I'm so sorry.

You have a forgiving heart. I don't know that I could have forgiven him.

[hrmjustin]

107. It was not easy, but I wanted healing. But to this day I still have issues trusting men.

[Beacool]

128. I understand.

I have an older friend (she's 60) who was raped when she was in her late teens. To this day she suffers fom bouts of depression, even though she has a loving husband. I don't think that many men realize the psychological damage that rape causes. The anger, the guilt, the lack of self esteem and self worth that is hard to overcome. I've been fortunate that I haven't been in that situation, but I have seen the devastation it has caused on others.

[Berserker]

109. Im sorry

for what you went through. But you don't have issues with men you have issues with assholes. Real men have never done this sort of thing. I am happy you can forgive because I can't. Real men never rape anyone ever.

[hrmjustin]

113. The pain is hard to deal with. But when I let go I really did let go.

[rDigital]

139. That was very big of you. I hope it helped heal your pain as well. nt

[hrmjustin]

340. Thank you.

[stevenleser]

163. Ver sorry to hear that this happened to you.

You are much more forgiving about something like that than I could ever be.

[hrmjustin]

341. Thank you.

[countryjake]

223. Hugs to you, hrmjustin.

I am so sorry.

[hrmjustin]

342. Thank you.

[Beacool]

100. You must be the type of guy my mother always warned me about.

Lucky for me I never got so drunk that I didn't know what I was doing.

You're fortunate that you and your buddies didn't end up in jail. And yes, sexually assaulting an unconscious woman IS rape since she never gave consent.

At least you recognize the errors of your past behavior.

[Zoeisright]

104. Yes. You were.

I hope you aren't now.

[cherokeeprogressive]

108. YOU are the guy Fathers tell their Daughters about. You were THEN, and probably are NOW.

"Thank god for "sluts"...

My blood boils...

"... I took advantage of many women..."

I blame the people who raised you... and the people who raised them...

Fuck ME I gotta long off before I say something that will get me banned from DU.

[vaberella]

121. Although I agree with the last line. The rest of your statement disgusts me...

Because of your treatment of women. If this was to be taken as satire...it is still crude and offensive.

[Oilwellian]

125. I'm surprised

you're still alive. I was a teenager in the late 60's, early 70's, and didn't know anyone who thought it was OK to do what you have done. In fact, I call bullshit on your excuse that it was the norm at the time. That may be the excuse you've come up with to justify your crimes, but implying it was the norm is absurd. One more thing, if you had taken advantage of me the way you so grotesquely described in your OP, you sir, would be a Dickless Wonder today.

[seabeyond]

127. Only Psychos Think Rape is OK...Right?

Societal Attitudes Supporting Rape

- A survey of 6,159 college students enrolled at 32 institutions in the U.S. found the following: (ref 4)

· 54% of the women surveyed had been the victims of some form of sexual abuse; more than one in four college-aged women had been the victim of rape or attempted rape;

· 57% of the assaults occurred on dates;

· 73% of the assailants and 55% of the victims had used alcohol or other drugs prior to the assault;

· 25% of the men surveyed admitted some degree of sexually aggressive behavior;

· 42% of the victims told no one.

- In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances. (ref 5)

- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found ref 5)

· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;

· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;

· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;

· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

- In a survey of male college students:

· 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).

· One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)

- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)

· 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

· 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.

- Women with a history of rape or attempted rape during adolescence were almost twice as likely to experience a sexual assault during college, and were three times as likely to be victimized by a husband. (ref 9)

- Sexual assault is reported by 33% to 46% of women who are being physically assaulted by their husbands.(ref 10)


http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

[Beacool]

134. I took a Human Sexuality class in college.

It was a summer course for an easy credit. The only thing that I remember from that class was the results of a survey done among male students of diverse universities. One of the questions was whether they would force themselves on a woman if they knew that they could get away with it. The researches had made it clear that it would be against the woman's will. I found the response astounding; 48% of the men said that they would take advantage of a woman if they knew that they wouldn't suffer any consequences.

I was shocked at the time. These were our future doctors, lawyers, politicians, the type of men that would become pillars of their communities and almost half of them thought that rape was OK. I never forgot that study.

[seabeyond]

146. yes. i found that study over a year ago. i have recently gone back looking for it

and i swear it has been taken off the net.

yes

yes.....

[Beacool]

259. I don't remember who conducted the study.

It would be interesting to know if a similar study done now would offer the same results.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

196. It seems clear that the great majority of posters in this thread are denying the facts these survey

results supply. I've been reading DU for years, but this sort of thing is one of the reasons I hadn't joined until recently. It's very hard to have discussions of some of the things which very much need to be discussed because a mob mentality seems to develop and facts are dismissed. Admissions of any failure to hold strictly progressive views on every aspect of every issue, even when one is admitting a developing realization that the unenlightened views a just that, or when one is asking for help in understanding the problem with those old views, are almost guaranteed to make the person wish they'd never brought up the subject.

I am in no way defending the OPs attitude nor, most certainly not his past actions, but he seems to be describing the reprehensible views he had toward women and sexual conduct back in his youth in stark, offensive terms for the sake of honesty and admission of past ignorance, not for shock value or to champion that ignorance. But since, thankfully, most here never held such views nor knew people who did, they cannot accept the fact that these view were not uncommon in certain circles.

Again, the results of the survey reported above support the OPs claims that such horribly misguided attitudes could easily have been part of his micro-culture. Also, I happen to have had the misfortune to have encountered teens/men who held such beliefs. I'd rather not go into details about my dreadful experiences resulting from having fallen in with such people.

As revolting as it is to see a child dressed in Ku Klux Klan robes, I don't see that we can blame the child. As long as their family and friends are Klan members and racists, at what point is the child expected to break free from the brainwashing?

And, if that child was fortunate to have fallen in with non-bigoted people has begun to see their past beliefs as wrong, can we not do better to educate and encourage that development rather than to send that person back to the old familiar territory?

It's very late. Maybe I'm not expressing my self coherently, but I'm trying.

[seabeyond]

214. point on. if we are not really honest, then it will continue and no resolutions to be had. it is a

culture, society and media that create this rape culture for our boys and our girls. boys, thinking this is to be a man. and girls thinking this is something they have to live with. in ways, i see the media pushing it harder today than ever before

in the past it was the john wayne putting her over the knee

today, it is rape media as entertainment and titillation

but, reality, these are just two small factors.

parents that are aware and implement the lessons as kid grow up what see this world, hopefully. but, it is not the reality for too many.

and yes... people do not want to let the cold hard numbers sink in.

[loudsue]

379. That kind of supports what the OP was saying about what his attitude was back then

These are horrifying statistics. Something needs to be done to educate people starting at a young age. All over the world.

It's time this planet's relationship with its women was healed NOW.

[seabeyond]

382. especially as that is today, as opposed to 3, 4 decades ago. agreed. nt

[HiPointDem]

129. and if someone had told you it was bad, you wouldn't have done it? after all, you were a

'testosterone-laden teen looking to stick it somewhere' & would have 'died" otherwise...

you say you thought it was ok & the girls were consenting by being there. ok, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. maybe you really believed there was nothing wrong with it...

uh.

[Egnever]

132. Did you live in bumfukistan Tennessee then?

Cause that's some fucked up thinking.

Never in my entire life have I ever thought it was ok to touch someone without their permission. I am not a whole lot younger than you.

Yes you were a rapist.

Kudos I guess for your honesty about it...

[white_wolf]

137. I'm from TN. Please don't compare us with the OP.

I was born and raised here (God help me), and I find what he did disgusting.

[rateyes]

192. Hey, Im from Tennessee...

dont you dare lump me in with this shit.

[Egnever]

366. I am not the one lumping you in with it

Its the OP cause apparently according to him in Tennessee it was encouraged back in the day.

[Tsiyu]

361. Bumfukistan TN here, in the backwoods

Last time I passed out drunk was in 2001, on moonshine, because my kid was going to Afghanistan and I had no way to contact him before he left, a male bandmate and friend sat and watched me all night, washing my face with a rag and laughing a little at me ( from what I can remember of waking up sporadically ) but never laid a hand on me otherwise.

So take your TN bashing somewhere else.....

[white_wolf]

136. "Seriously, if I didn't get to fuck something I would have gone crazy!"

That line is a bullshit excuse. I really have no sympathy for this line of reasoning. I'm 23 so I was a testosterone laden teen much more recently than you and I would never have considered doing what you did, no matter how much I may have felt like I needed sex. I'm sorry, but if you can't control yourself enough not take advantage of someone then you really have problems and should seriously seek professional help. I don't know I was a loser in high school, though, so maybe I just wasn't "cool" enough to be part of the rape crowd. Disgusting.

[Common Sense Party]

142. Please answer this as honestly as you can: When you were a teen, if YOU had passed out

at a party, and some guy used your anus the way you used unconscious girls' vaginas, if you found out about it later, would YOU have thought that it was wrong, and that you had been raped?

I'm not talking about now. I mean back then. Would you have been cool with it, because, you know, seriously, that guy would have gone crazy if he didn't screw something.

[Tsiyu]

368. NashvilleLefty appears to be too cowardly to answer this question

He has been asked it repeatedly and refuses to answer.

Once again, his refusal to answer indicates that he truly believes HE is human and women are not...he can't even imagine being on the other side, because as a male HE is a Special Snowflake.

I believe his behavior is that same as that held by very severe male homophobes. The reason they are SOOOOO afraid of homosexuality is that they have behaved just like the OP, and they are secretly afraid that a gay male may treat THEM in the inhumane way that they have treated women. IMO of course.

[Arugula Latte]

145. I wish you'd have stuck "it" in a light socket.

[Helen Reddy]

262. Hah! n/t

[flvegan]

151. I'll say it...please, can someone bounce this asshole?

Your "fair game" and your "sluts' rape apology ignorance diminishes this site. "Oh, I didn't know" and "I was just like everyone else" acceptable behaviour, and your very admission that you may have raped women in their eyes.

Good luck with that, vermin.

And with that, a ban from the thread.

[TorchTheWitch]

164. Amen to that

However, according to what he's said he DID rape women - no "may have" and not just according to his victims but according to the law at the time and any decent thinking person at the time. Let's just get that point utterly clear.

[obamanut2012]

212. thank you

[agent46]

153. You were not a rapist.

You were misinformed and lied to by authority figures about the actual nature of sexuality and gender.

[Common Sense Party]

154. Wrong. BZZZZZT! Thanks for playing.

The OP, by his own admission, was a rapist. No misinformation, no authority figure dodge changes that.

Good hell.

[LadyHawkAZ]

159. W T F?

[TorchTheWitch]

165. He bloody well was a rapist

And anyone on this board that doesn't believe it has no fucking business being here.

[rateyes]

174. Give me a damned break. He knew what he was doing and

that it was wrong when he did it. And you do, too. Otherwise, he wouldnt have had to wait for the girls to pass out to the point they couldnt resist.

I am the same age as the poster, and this argument that "it was a different time" is utter bullshit. It was just easier to get away with it back then...thats why he did it.

Even so, it still happens today, and the rapists today are using the same damn defenses he used back then.

Nothing ever changes.

Sad.

[rateyes]

180. Did you forget the sarcasm smilie, or

are you just that damned stupid?

[obamanut2012]

215. No, he was a rapist

He was considered one back then, too. We are talking about the very late 70s and very early 1980s, not the 1880s.

[pnwmom]

155. Thank you for doing your bit to educate.

I assume you've spoken to younger male relatives about this, too. All young men need to hear this.

[brokechris]

160. you had sex with someone who was passed out?

in my mind--that is rape. And no--you are not a mind reader--you do not know that she came to the party expecting that to happen.

No one wants to be used while they are out of it.

[rateyes]

172. There is no doubt about it...

No need to qualify it by saying "in my mind." It was rape. Period.

[defacto7]

166. I don't suppose you realize that you are using the same excuses

that priests and the Pope used when their acts against innocent children, mostly boys came into the spotlight. The number one excuse was that the 70's were a different time, and that sexual immorality in society was to blame. They were drawn along by a wicked society which made them fuck little boys.

Bull Shit!

I'm glad you feel you have changed, But you will never rid yourself of the responsibility for raping human beings who were not able to defend themselves. That you will always carry. And if you don't see it that way, you haven't changed. You are still the same. Just new words and a hope of finding relief and acceptance which you will only find in other sociopathic humans or... possibly in reaching out to your victims and taking the consequences of their choice.

These are different days for sure. These are days when the secrets are coming out and victims are seeking their rightful revenge. There are thousands of people who have spent the last 40 years thinking their acts would never catch up to them. They are in prison or have lost everything and everyone in their lives. I wouldn't be too confident that you will be able to whisk this away under the rug of decades, and find your absolution there. It just may catch up with you.

[countryjake]

168. I have a question and you needn't answer if it's too personal...

or you'd rather not divulge, but I am wondering if you have a family now?

If so, have you made sure that your own children grew up aware of the similar dangers that exist in their everyday world, savvy to the powers of peer pressure, and impressed upon them the need to respect another's body, feelings, and space?

[rateyes]

171. I am the same age you are, and

I knew better.

It is sad that girls and guys drink themselves into oblivion...but, even so, getting smashed is NOT, and NEVER HAS BEEN, at any time, in any decade, an invitation for sex.

You need explicit permission. Otherwise, its rape. She doesnt have to say no for it to be rape. If she doesnt say yes, or cannot say yes or no, its rape.

I knew that in the 70s when I was in college and sexually active. Its hard for me to believe you were that clueless. You REALLY had no idea?

To answer your question: yes, you were a rapist. And, I have to believe that on SOME level you knew at the time that you were a rapist.

Im glad you feel bad about what you did. I wish you had felt bad about it then. I will tell you this: had you done that to my sister and I found out about it, I would have beaten the hell out of you.

[nomorenomore08]

173. I don't knee-jerk "hate" you, but it's not my place to forgive (or not).

But Christ what a brutal world we live in. I would *never* want to bring a child into it, regardless of gender.

[JustJoe]

177. How MANY women did you rape?

"...I took advantage of many women that could be considered Rape."

How many is "many"?

How many women did you rape?

[Qanisqineq]

178. No? Probably? Could be considered?

I think you still could use more education about rape if you are using these terms. Fuck yes you were a rapist. I was only a toddler back then but if my mother had been on the receiving end of your "release" she would say she had been raped.

I know you are describing your idiocy back then, but to hear that you ever thought women were "fair game" in that way disgusts me.

[obamanut2012]

217. this

[darkangel218]

181. If you feel that bad about it, you should go and confess to law enforcement

And give the victims some closure.

[darkangel218]

184. You honestly think the OP didnt know what he was doing was wrong?

Please!

[LAGC]

187. He was horny.

He had to "stick it in something," or he would have "gone crazy," by his own admission.

What would young boys ever do with all those pent up hormones wreaking havoc on their systems if they never got a chance to release?

..
..

[darkangel218]

197. Well, he should go explain that to the cops.

But of course he ain't gonna do it. He confesses on DU to make himself feel better, while his victims live with the pain and consequences of what happened. Do you think trauma from rape ever goes away? It doesn't!

[LAGC]

204. It is pretty sad.

He comes here to use DU as his little Online Therapy Session(tm) to relieve his guilt, almost bragging about it, dehumanizing the women he raped by calling them "sluts", knowing he'll never be prosecuted for his crimes...

[darkangel218]

206. If he goes and confesses to the police, dont be so sure he wont get prosecuted.

There is plenty of cold files, if they find just one rape accusation/victim they can tie him to, he can still go to jail.

[rateyes]

186. He didnt make a mistake. A mistake is unintentional.

He committed a crime. Glad he learned from it, but he doesnt get a pass, either.

[TorchTheWitch]

194. rape is not a fucking "mistake"

And anyone old enough to have a working penis for sex knows damn well that using a woman as an object to jerk off in is not only wrong but rape - EVEN back then. The ONLY reason to rape a woman in a condition where she is unable to consent is because you KNOW that were she able to give consent she'd say NO. The simple fact that anyone would commit such a crime is being they know their chances of a) being able to do it without much fuss, and b) because their chances of getting caught are minimal because the woman who is that drunk may very likely not even remember what happened to her nor who it was.

This is no fucking minor mistake that just any person could make for fuck's sake! DAMN!

[rateyes]

185. "At the time, NO? But, in reality, PROBABLY???"

At the time, YES. In reality, YES.

Im glad you admit you were wrong. But, I think you need to really look deep inside yourself and see and admit you knew it was wrong at the time, and that "everyone else" was not like that. You were in the minority...thank god.

[LAGC]

188. By your own admission, you are a sex offender.

You should be on the Sex Offender Registry, if you aren't already...

[BainsBane]

189. Yes, you are a rapist.

You and your Neanderthal friends might have considered it acceptable, but I can assure you that your victims did not. Nor does the law.

[TeamsterDem]

193. That's disgusting and it's a shame you weren't prosecuted for it. Appalling. nt

[WinkyDink]

195. Creepy and vulgar OP post to no purpose.

[obamanut2012]

220. It diminishes rape victims

It mocks them.

This OP bothers me even more now than it did when I read it last night.

[union_maid]

202. Noteverybody did it

There were always some who knew better, even way, way back. And that's just talking about the girls whose emotional problems led them to allow themselves to be used while conscious. If a girl is unconscious it's hard to see how it ever could be construed as anything other than rape. I'm glad you realize it was wrong. Also count your lucky stars you're not doing life right now.

[MadHound]

203. Unless you're in your eighties, it certainly wasn't considered acceptable behavior at the time.

Taking advantage wasn't considered acceptable, it was considered rape, and you weren't like everyone else.

Back in the day, at least among us civilized folks, if a girl was passed out you got her home and put her to bed, hopefully without her parents finding out. You didn't stay there, you didn't take advantage of her.

And who are these "sluts" you're talking about? The girls who came to party and pass out, or the boys who did the very same thing?

Your post is nothing more than after the fact rationalizing, made worse by the fact that you're trying to pass your bad behavior off as being a product of your times. Sorry, but it wasn't, and there are plenty of people who were alive at the time who can still call you on your pathetic bullshit.

Frankly, I'm surprised you made it out of your teenage years alive. Guys who did what you did would have that girl's brothers, friends and boyfriend lining up to kick your ass. Yeah, the cops probably wouldn't be involved because with them, the pigs, the "drunk slut" defense still flew. But the rest of us knew the score and you wouldn't be healthy for a long, long while.

Face the fact, you were/are a rapist. Perhaps you should think about making amends.

[The Link]

205. You should have been put in prison then.

And you should still be there. Just my opinion.

[adigal]

251. Do you understand the times?? Or are you just another judgmental jerk?

Try to understand what he is saying. Many, many young men thought this was OK in the 70s. Many of the guys I grew up with, mostly Catholic school boys, would be in jail for this.

[FightForMichigan]

264. They should have been.

I don't give a damn about "different times." To the one who was traumatized, the hurt then is like the hurt now. The damage is the same. To hell with "different times." Wrong is wrong.

[Egnever]

365. Oh horseshit

The times my ass. Rape is rape and the fact that someone is passed out never made it ok to anyone other than dickheads who tried to justify it to themselves.

As others have said in this thread if this was done to my sister or any of my female friends at the "time" no matter what "time" it was you can be damned sure one of us would be in jail now.

[gollygee]

207. Well you display the sense of entitlement behind rape

Outside of that, women were "fair game". I mean, I was a testosterone-laden teen who needed to stick it in somewhere! Seriously, if I didn't get to fuck something I would have gone crazy!

You didn't need and you were not entitled to stick it anywhere, particularly not in another person. And you wouldn't have gone crazy. What's crazy is thinking you're entitled to a woman's body because "you need to stick it in somewhere."

But that sense of entitlement is still out there, and that sense of entitlement is why there still needs to be education.

[MadrasT]

210. At the time, "yes", and in reality, "yes".

There is no probably about it. Yes.

"Everybody was doing it" is not an excuse.

Glad to see you support education about rape. There are still far too many people who don't get it.

When I was young and going to parties and stuff, I would often fall asleep off in a corner or side room somewhere after 2 drinks. Alcohol makes me very sleepy, so I never drank to the point of actually passing out, I would just get really tired and go snooze. I can't tell you how many times I woke up to find somebody groping me or trying to take my clothes off. Since I was only sleeping (not drunk or passed out from drinking), I would wake up immediately and put a stop to it. I shudder to think what would have happened had I actually been drunk and unconscious.

[obamanut2012]

216. This OP is just horrible

And, teh OP still doesn't seem to "get it." He is talking about the late 70s and early 80s, not the 1880s. My dad is much older than him, and he rad the OP and said it is BS. Guys knew it was rape when my Dad was a young man.

This OP mocks rape victims, even if the OP didn't intend it that way.

[pintobean]

222. We took them home and made sure they were safe.

They might get in trouble with their parents, but they were safe. I'm also in my mid 50s, and I didn't know anyone who thought like you. Your actions were morally, socially and legally unacceptable. Yes, you were/are a rapist.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

281. Yes, that's what GENTLEMEN did

One of my roommates once woke up with no memory of how she had gotten home. I assured her that two of our male friends had helped her home from the previous night's party. And no, neither they nor any of the other guys at the party raped her.

[Iggo]

225. Yes. Absolutely.

You are a rapist and a rape apologist.

See ya!

[Sheldon Cooper]

226. I appreciate that you are willing to honestly examine your behavior and thought processes.

I understand that you are trying to explain your attitudes about sex at that stage in your life. It's not easy to take a hard look at yourself and own up to your behavior. I gather that you don't now consider those women to be sluts, and you now understand that you won't die if you don't get to stick your penis into a woman. You are taking a lot of crap in this thread for your comments, and they really are quite vile, but I recognize that you are not the same person today that you were then.

I went to school in the 70s as well. While I don't think your behavior was the norm, it was certainly there. The attitude held by many was that women really were consenting to sex simply by showing up at the party. I can still remember the poor woman who got drunk and ended up pulling a train at the frat house. The men thought she was a great sport, the women knew better. She left school shortly after and never returned. I'm quite certain that none of those fraternity 'men' considered themselves a rapist, certainly not then or probably not now.

I appreciate that you are willing to discuss your behavior and call for more education of today's young men. As you may tell from my screen name, I am a fan of The Big Bang Theory television show. One of the characters, Howard, is a pathetic geek who is constantly trying to score with the ladies. He mentions to his friend and fellow geek Raj that when going to the bar, they have to wait until the jocks and lawyers snap up all the pretty girls, and then they will be able to ply the leftover ugly girls with enough booze to allow them to get in their pants. Luckily he was unsuccessful in his approach, so this type of behavior wasn't rewarded. As much as I love this show, that scene makes me cringe because it propogates the rape culture that is so prevalent in our society.

Education for young men on what rape is should be happening on college campuses and really anyplace where young men congregate. We'll probably never stop the psychopaths that lurk in the bushes, but we can possibly stop the men who believe as you once did.

Again, thanks for starting the discussion.

[seabeyond]

257. you are point on thru out your post. nt

[gollygee]

235. When I was in college

(late 80s) it really varied wildly based on what crowd it was. Some frats and sports teams and other groups were respectful and I felt very safe at parties thrown by them. But some had an air of sexual aggressiveness, and there would be groping and inappropriate suggestions and jokes about rape. It happens but I can see how some are saying they weren't aware of it as it really did seem to be, at least when I was in college, very dependent upon the group. It's like there was a mob mentality in some where no one would call anyone out, where in the nicer groups if someone had made a rape "joke" to a woman or teased her in a sexually aggressive way, the other guys in the group would have said something.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

307. That's bringing back a bad memory: freshman year, rugby party.

The house was pulsing, thick with smoke, alcohol flowing. I felt that "sexual aggressiveness" and my friends and I, despite being bombed out of our minds, made the decision to leave. Later, we learned that a passed-out "Rugby Queen" was repeatedly raped in one of the bedrooms -- "crowned" as it was referred to. That poor girl dropped out of school, and I don't remember hearing anything about what happened to the sick fucks who raped her.

To any young-uns reading this, what the OP describes WAS NOT THE NORM. And attributing it to "the '70s" is a weak excuse for his despicable behavior. Drugs and alcohol were abundant throughout my high school and university years (with non-stop partying at beach houses). When someone passed out, they were carried to a spare bed, or tucked away in a corner with a blanket or jacket over them. They were not raped. Jesus, after reading this OP, I thank GOD for the decent guys who hung out with us -- from "strangers" to close friends.

The OP's little swipe at "Progressives" in post #11 speaks volumes. It's all bullshit, other than "yes to rape education."

[seabeyond]

312. the moral to this story is we hear the SAME stories today. things are not different.

there are still decent men, plenty of them. the vast majority. and we still have men that feel entitled, that the woman matters not, and do not see it as rape or wrong.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

317. "Rape is rape."

I don't know what else to say.

[seabeyond]

325. i do. the whole point of all this is when you tell a guy rape is rape, he will probably agree. say

get a girl drunk to fuck her is rape....

he will probably say

huh, what? whatchu talkin' bout.

hence, educating, defining rape and what being a man is about. i t isnt rape. or entitled sex. which often ends up being rape.

[BlueToTheBone]

230. I hope that if any attack was in the past 7 years

that the women/woman will come forward and charge you with your crime.

[Starry Messenger]

234. This post is like a slap in the face.

[tjwash]

240. you are a creepy weirdo

Go ahead and alert this. You sound like a criminal that gets his jollies by sending taunting letters to people bragging about what he did.

Some posts make me want to take a shower after I read them...this one makes me want to be blasted off with clorox and scrubbed with a wire brush.

Yuck.

[99Forever]

243. This one..

.. pegs my BS meter.

[polly7]

244. Wtf are you even still here?

You literally make my stomach sick.

[lunatica]

247. the concept of consensual sex needs to be understood and included in the education.

It's the only kind of sex that's acceptable. Period.

[WI_DEM]

250. sorry but your post is completely creepy

[adigal]

253. This is similar to how I lost my virginity at college

I was 18, dating a guy for a few months. I drank too much, and he ignored me when I protested. I was a good girl, a Catholic school girl. But I didn't blame him, I wasn't even mad at him. I realized that perhaps I shouldn't have drank so much, and put myself in a position to not be able to take care of myself.

I never made that mistake again, but I took the blame. Not him. It was a different time then. If you didn't live then as a teen, I don't think you would get it, because we are so much more enlightened now. Thank the Goddess.

[FightForMichigan]

271. This makes me so sad

It wasn't your fault. It was never your fault. But you, like so many other women, took the blame upon yourself. Nothing you did gave anyone a right to do that to you. He chose to take your clothes off. He chose to rape you. It was all on him, not on you. If you had gotten drunk and passed out around a decent person instead of him, it never would have happened. It is all on him.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

255. You are like "everyone else". It's called RAPE culture.

And it's called RAPE, no matter when you did it or what your alleged testosterone levels ie: "needs" were. And no woman, at any time in any place under any circumstance is there by the grace of some male-preferring God especially for you to fuck at your sophomoric whim just to satisfy your own "needs". Not then. Not now.

You, sir, STILL need to grow up and face the fact that women are HUMAN, not some walking hole for you to stick your dick in whenever you feel like it.

Seriously.


EDIT: to answer your frankly hideously ignorant question: YES. You were and ARE a rapist.

[DiverDave]

256. You have to ask?

what a, well better not, someone is watching...

[Smarmie Doofus]

260. It's hard for me to psychologically enter into that milieu, but...

>>>In our eyes, they very fact that they appeared at these parties meant that they agreed to pass out and be used. >>>

... was that actually the case? Did a least SOME girls "agree" or at least *assume* that that would be the case if they went to the party?

(It's hard for me 'cause I'm gay and unfamiliar w. the ways of the "natives" in this regard. I attended no parties like this... that I can remember, anyway... though I do remember a long stretch of the seventies wherein ...even for heteros... there were damned few "rules".)

[mercuryblues]

263. Wow

I better title would have been, how I realized I was a rapist.

You beleived that is was your RIGHT to fuck someone, even if they were passed out and did not know? Who the fuck are you to decide whether or not a girl is a slut? Oh, she showed up to a party, therefore she agreed to passing out and getting RAPED. The more she was raped, the sluttier she became and deserved to be raped some more? Is that it?

People like you are the reason men need to be told what they consider their right to fuck someone who is passed out is indeed RAPE, not a right.

You knew you were wrong then and are now trying to justify being a rapist because you thought you were like everybody else.

[Mnemosyne]

265. As someone that lost my virginity to rape in 1972, was raped by my husband and as the mother of a

young woman that was gang raped, you belong in prison.

Since you are obviously not in prison, you should make serious amends.

Oh, and fuck you asshole. You are making excuses for your vile behavior; THERE IS NO FUCKING EXCUSE!!!!!!

[Mnemosyne]

268. My great-grandfather had a unique punishment for rapists- nail their dick to a stump and give them a

butter knife.

[Maine-ah]

269. tough topic.

and interesting insight into the mind of a rapist.

The best part of your post:

"I was WRONG. But I didn't know that I was wrong. I thought that I was just like "everyone else".

Therefore, I support education about Rape. "

******

I think that if you know any of the names of the women that you raped, you should find a way to apologize - and if the statute of limitations has not passed, to have charges brought against you to pay for your crime. If that is not possible, you should be voluntarily participating in programs that help bring awareness about rape.

[Generic Other]

270. I remember the girl

She was a cheerleader and we had been friends in junior high, but had drifted into different circles. She the popular one, me the hippie. But one night under the bleachers on the field after a game, three girls smoking cigarettes and drinking beer. She suddenly opened up to us. "They call me bang bang. They made up a song. Lightbulb Jane," she told us. I had heard the nickname before but did not know the origin. And then she confessed to what happened to her after a party. Jocks and cool guys. She had too much to drink. Half conscious. Too many guys to count. Student body officers, football players, National merit scholars...good boys all of them. And not just raped her, but used a lightbulb on her.

She cried as she told us her story. At the time, I was horrified that I was the only one she felt close enough to share this pain with because we were in fact not close at all. But she told her story, and we two who were there tried to let her know it wasn't her fault and that it didn't make her a bad person. Not once did we suggest she get any adults involved. The idea never occurred to us.

Instead, we kept her secret. I have kept it until today.

The only action I took was to beat the crap out of one of the participants when he hit on me later and bragged about it to others. And I became an advocate for rape victims. I helped women file reports including third person ones when they were unwilling to press charges but wanted the crime documented. I went to hospitals, police stations, courtrooms. Held women's hands when mostly male authorities brushed off the crimes against them.

I heard their stories. Their pain. The painful baggage they carried that they couldn't get rid of.

And now, you are an old man ready to be absolved, perhaps congratulated for your courage in admitting your youthful crime. Yet it was me who looked in that young woman's eyes, something you never did because she was unconscious. It was me who felt powerless and guilty for not doing more to help her that day under the bleachers. All I could offer was the lame comment that she was not a "slut," and that she had not done anything that justified what had happened to her.

And now you come here to DU to try to explain, to justify that long ago action on your part.

My feeling is that it is not me that you need to confess to. I cannot absolve you. No one can. And you never even had to look into those haunted eyes. I have no idea what happened to "Jane." She really never spoke to me again. The shame was too great. She left town after graduation, and I hope never looked back.

The guys who committed this act all grew up to be upstanding citizens with wives and daughters and permanently stained souls. I have zero sympathy for them.

[seabeyond]

273. this. everything about it is right.

you have me in fuckin tears.

this.....

[polly7]

274. Thank you for being there for Jane.

Some of us have never had anyone like that, and have had to watch "The guys who committed this act all grew up to be upstanding citizens with wives and daughters and permanently stained souls." go on to live happy, unbothered lives while we try to deal with the feelings of worthlessness and shame over and over and over. There is no way those girls in the OP didn't suffer afterwards, and I wonder what their lives have been like. The OP talks about rape as a youthful indiscretion, he has no idea how much damage he's caused.

[FightForMichigan]

277. Thank you so much.

There's so much I'd like to say to you but I don't know the words. None of your kindness is wasted. I wonder if you know the enormity of the good you've done.

[gollygee]

278. My heart goes out to Jane

I've heard too many stories like this.

[geardaddy]

321. Excellent post

and spot on.

[closeupready]

272. I remember in college, a gang rape accusation at a frat

was essentially swept under the rug, even though the student paper reported it.

Then I was reading the other day about a high school in Illinois where a freshman football player was "hazed"/raped anally by seniors, and allegedly the victims families don't want to pursue charges. And I'm just like, is that child neglect or what?

If your child told you he was raped by, I don't know, a priest, a teacher or another student, wouldn't you pursue charges?

Anyway, to answer your question, if you are being honest about what happened, then I tend to think that yes, you were raping her.

[Jumping John]

282. Yes NashvilleLefty you are a serial rapist. And of course you are unable

to be honest with yourself.

And you raped many women. You must have enjoyed your acts of rape. You did it to many women. I bet you even did not care what their names were. Unless you needed to use it to tell your other peer pressure serial rapists how you scored with your cunning criminal act. I bet you remained sober at these drinking parties so that you could get the most satisfaction from your crimes.

Tell me how enjoyable your acts of rape were for you, please. I bet you bragged about your acts later because that would have been Acceptable Behavior. Notice the capitol letters used by NashvilleLefty - for emphasis I suppose.

I notice also that you admit you are not even registered as a Democratic voter. Why is that?

Oh but go ahead and ignore my rant. I was so foolish as a teen that I actually thought that a woman should be protected from rapists like you. And one time I think I may have done just that.

Peer pressure is a good reason to commit crimes , I guess. Or just doing a criminal act just because doing what others were doing makes it OK. That sounds more like excuses to me though. And raping because you enjoy the act seems more like the reason.

Wake up. Smell the coffee. Open your eyes. I bet you cannot even remember your victims names. I am sure that you do not see them as fellow human beings.

Be brave enough to tell your mother what you did and I am sure that she will agree that it was OK because everyone else was OK with the rape of many passed out drunk teenage girls.

I have an opinion of you and your crimes but I will refrain from sharing that with you. Not that it would matter to you.

How about telling us how you would feel if you woke up from a drunken stupor to find out that someone had raped you in the ass to keep from going crazy from his extreme state of needing to ejaculate?

[morningfog]

283. Yes, you were a rapist.

[wendylaroux]

289. If you would have taken her wallet instead,

would you have been a thief?

[leftstreet]

306. Oh wow. Welcome to DU

Excellent question...but I don't think you'll get an answer

LOL this would make an interesting OP:

Was I a Thief?

I didn't think so at the time, but maybe in reality I was

I thought a thief was a bank robber in a mask with guns. But I was broke as a teen and never had any money, so I took whatever I could get my hands on. If I couldn't get cash I'd go crazy.

Thank God for Bums and the Homeless. They were usually too drunk to stow their money well, and they showed up on the streets drunk so obviously they agreed to getting robbed.

I was wrong but I didn't know I was wrong until I got taught what robbery really is

Today I fully support robbery education

[white_wolf]

351. This post is actually more complicated than the OP.

The OP clearly committed rape, but the person in your scenario is more complicated. He actually never did commit robbery, only theft. Robbery requires the use of force, theft does not.

[LynneSin]

295. I also support teaching people how to prevent rape....

but mainly as Self-Defense. Everyone woman should know the key areas to attack a rapist including the groins, kneecaps, in-step and poking the eyes.

[CoffeeCat]

299. As a victim of rape and child molestation...

I would just like to say "thank you" for actually admitting that you were wrong.

I have been in therapy for nearly 15 years due to the kind of sexual abuse that you admit to have perpetrated. The damage is real and it just never ends. I have PTSD, an eating disorder and I go in and out of depressions. I have sat in support groups and listened to other women's stories--how they passed out or how passing out and being raped was one of a series of traumas that happened in their lives.

Because you can look back and realize that what you did was wrong--maybe you are open to understanding what happens to girls and women who are victims of sexual abuse. Remember those "sluts" or those drunk girls at the parties? Chances are, those girls were victims of sexual abuse or other kinds of abuse--beatings, physical abuse--at home. Those girls were desperately disconnected and damaged. They didn't care about themselves, because their humanity was wadded up and thrown in the trash--by their fathers and mothers--the very people who were supposed to love and protect them, but didn't. So, these girls go to parties and they treat themselves as they are treated as home---recklessly and without any thought to their humanity. So they get drunk to numb the pain, do drugs and put themselves in vulnerable situations--because they're in an emotional stupor and they don't care about themselves anymore.

The girls who were raised by loving parents were studying, preparing for college, and spending time with family members who respected them and protected them. Those "sluts"--as you call them--were acting out pain--that you inevitably capitalized on.

So really, when you committed these acts--you were just one chapter in some very difficult personal stories. I was one of these girls. For a couple of years, I behaved like this. However, it wasn't about sex. I wasn't getting anything out of it. I had disassociated from myself. I had become the trash that I was treated like at home.

When I was in seventh grade, a bunch of popular sophomore guys thought it would be funny to give me vodka. I was staying overnight with at my 7th grade girlfriend's house--and her older brothers and their friends did this. I passed out and the rest is history.

But these guys and their vodka came along--during the height of major trauma and sexual abuse that was happening in my own home. I remember going along with the vodka because I didn't feel that I had the right to say no. I didn't feel like a person. I felt like a powerless object. I could barely sense that I was in danger because I was so disassociated from my own feelings and needs. I had none. I wasn't supposed to have any.

And boy did these sophomore boys talk about what happened. They blamed me. They laughed about it. They labeled me with a horrible reputation that still follows me today--some forty years later. Lovely huh?

Because I've got you here--a perpetrator who understands that what he did was wrong--maybe you could apologize to your victims? As a victim, I can tell you that it would be healing and helpful. It won't be a cure, but it will go a long way.

If you truly are sorry and if you truly realize that what you did was wrong--then you will try to make this right. There is a difference between realizing that what you did was wrong--as you have admitted--and actually having remorse. Do you have remorse? Do you care that you capitalized on the sexual trauma of young girls who were so broken that they lacked the capacity to grow up normally?

These girls were derailed, likely by their caregivers, but you played a part in keeping them derailed. You need to own that, understand that and consider apologizing to them. Chances are, there are many perpetrators in their history. If just one apologized and told them that it wasn't their fault--it would make a huge difference.

I bet most of these "sluts" as you say, are still suffering greatly--similar to my own healing journey. You will never know what it is like to feel emotional pain like this. It is lifelong torture. I'm sure the thought of apologizing leaves you uncomfortable, but please remember that the emotional pain of sexual abuse--incurred during childhood, the teen years and early adulthood is emotionally draining and exhaustive. It's also expensive--I've spent tens of thousands in therapy. It also affects your health.

Think about it. I strongly urge you to apologize. Your "realizations" mean nothing if they are just words on a messageboard. Put them to action.

[coalition_unwilling]

330. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - Well put and definitely

needed saying. Glad you made it through and are here on DU now.

[Gormy Cuss]

353. I wish that I could rec this post. Thank you CoffeeCat n/t

[Mnemosyne]

362. ...

[noamnety]

301. Two suggestions.

First, I would edit your title to "Was I a Rapist - Trigger Warning."

It's considered common courtesy to do that, so that people who know they might relive something if they read your post are making a more conscious decision to deal, or not deal with it.

The second suggestion is to do what you can to help with education about men's attitudes. I'm assuming this grew out of the post of the feminist holding the sign about education on her campus. Some people here have pointed to statistics saying that many most men in college say "I would never rape" but when the question is phrased differently, to a situation like you describe, a significant percentage say "yeah, I might do that." It suggests that they in fact - as you are pointing out - don't consider that rape, or haven't internalized it as rape.

So although you are getting hammered here for stating what you did, I think it's important for people to realize this is someone confirming exactly what many of us have been claiming - that it's not uncommon to see rape redefined as "taking advantage of" or some other euphemism that distinguishes "date" rape from "forcible" rape, in a way that allows men to think of themselves as not rapists, because they didn't have to hold a woman down while she fought back. We've been seeing one republican after another try to redefine rape in ways that categorize it as "legitimate rape" or not.

And I have had conversations with male friends who did not get it, so I know that not every guy - even today - gets it.

So, back to the suggestion - contact a women's center on a campus in your area and ask if they have a program where men talk to new students at orientation about this. Volunteer to be a speaker.

[TorchTheWitch]

308. It's HIM that needs education

And he's the very last person to be trying to educate others about this. Or did you somehow miss the part where he still doesn't acknowledge that he was a rapist even back then when he claims it was "normal"? And where he blames peer pressure and the "everybody did it then" disgusting excuse which is fucking bullshit? Or where he claims that at the time he had no idea what he was doing was wrong or that it was rape when he absolutely DID know because he only preyed on women who were incapacitated and unable to consent, therefore weren't likely to remember they were raped or know who did it? Because that's the ONLY reason any guy - then or now - would prey on a woman who was in a physical condition to be unable to consent... because it was likely he'd get away with raping her.

[deutsey]

329. +1

[jollyreaper2112]

309. When you are raised in a culture where x is acceptable, how are you to know otherwise?

I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Men want to fuck women. Primal, hardwired urge. Fuck, steal, kill, the exercise of power. There are lots of things we want to do and those impulses have to be curbed by society to have any kind of civilization worthy of the name. But when society does not condemn the behavior but condones it, when you are either praised or excused for it, how exactly are you supposed to come by another way of thinking? It's easy to come by the right way of thinking when you're raised with it. When you aren't, it can take a lifetime to unlearn the bad lessons. How do you tell a Muslim kid martyrdom is a mug's game when the Palestinians take to it like Texans to football?

Quit thinking about how the behavior is wrong, start asking how someone can convince himself its not right when everyone is telling him otherwise. Because to pretend like these people are something inhuman and other and not like you means to miss how the cultures arise in the first place. Culture of corruption. The norms everyone else follows. Being one of the boys. If you want it you can have it. Consequences are for schmucks. Think of the ego boost of getting away with whatever you want to do. It's seductive as hell and completely intoxicating.

Why do you think good lads from good homes end up involved in war crimes? Working at stock brokerages? Becoming Republicans? Why do the regretful stories only come later? For some of these guys they have to burn out on the high-flying connected lifestyle and hit bottom before they can sober up and recognize what they were doing, come face to face with truth. Others maintain their success and are never bothered by a conscience. Some people have the moral strength to never succumb. They usually pay a hell of a price for it.

A little something that struck me my mom told me. She was the fat girl in school and had never gotten any attention from the boys. She got her first serious suitor in college, a really nice guy who did not stand up for himself, was groveling and completely subservient. She'd lost weight, grown her hair out and was getting attention. Only with the perspective of hindsight could she appreciate what she did to him in that relationship. She was a bitch and walked over him mercilessly, was as awful as any of the queen bitches from back in high school. He finally broke up with her and she realized he was damn right. The lesson she learned: because she had never had power, she had never learned restraint.

How socially aware would any of us be with different life experiences, if we were in a bubble of privilege and power?

When the wrong lessons are taught, how can we expect anything other than the wrong lessons getting taken to heart? When someone genuinely wants to come in from the cold and join the civilized people, what should our response be? "HI. I used to be a neo-nazi and have seen the error of my ways." You horrible racist! "Yeah, I was that. I'm trying to make amends." Racist! "So I realize stealing is wrong, I worked on Wall Street and did many terrible things." Thief! "Yeah, I'm admitting that." Brigand! "Is this really constructive?"

[seabeyond]

313. geezus ... get off the fuckin evo psych... hard wired bullshit. so fuckin tired of that garbage. nt

[jollyreaper2112]

327. thank you for your nuanced and thoughtful response

Oh wait, there wasn't one. Could you try again, please? What's your take?

[seabeyond]

335. no. there was not. whne you give men that they are hard wired, i stop reading. it is bullshit in

all ways. and you fell for the story, for whatever reason. my quess, is it is about continued dominance. and on a thread of men raping, but not getting it is rape, i could stomach no more.

[jollyreaper2112]

348. Let me see if I have this striaght

You didn't read what I wrote but had to condemn me for what you think I said?

Anything posted on the internet has to be taken with a grain of salt but his story does not ring untrue. If we do not understand how people fall into mindsets and behaviors, we'll never have any hope of changing the outcomes. Does this not seem reasonable?

[one_voice]

314. I am shocked by this OP..

I have no words...which is rare for me.

As someone that was raped let me answer your question, YES you were a rapist. Sex with anyone without their consent IS RAPE, no if ands or buts. No qualifiers no exceptions no excuses.

I can't breath reading this.

I'm done.

[Barack_America]

316. This OP is revolting. It WAS rape -and- you ARE a rapist.

And I seriously suspect that you knew so even at the time.

[coalition_unwilling]

324. If this OP isn't pure bullshit and flameware, then I would think it would be

incumbent upon you to spend every waking instant of what remains of your life trying to contact your victims to apologize to them, try to make amends and seek their forgiveness. Rather than spend time in 'faux-flagellant' mode posting on DU.

[JustJoe]

331. He was so stricken by his confession and 3 hours of rough responses

that he had to go post on the fiscal cliff to gather himself:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1905207

[coalition_unwilling]

334. CoffeeCat upthread (post #299) cuts right through the bullshit

and cuts right to the chase. She said it far better than I ever could:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021904579#post299

[JustJoe]

338. Yes. Thank you. Assuming his story is true...

he has only barely begun by admitting he was wrong, but.... I see in his posts no real sign of understanding what he has done or the pain he has caused. He still sounds like a teenager. If the story is NOT true...

By the way, this is from his sig:

"Guilty of PUI (Posting Under the Influence), so please take my comments with a grain of salt."

[wendylaroux]

343. No shit,he was really broken up about this wasn't he?

[woo me with science]

352. Trying to validate the "fiscal cliff," no less.

That was my reading, too, that this is pure flamebait.

This is the same guy who posted that the original Grand Bargain "had great success for the liberals."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1892552

[NCTraveler]

326. You are a rapist.

Not were, but are. You and your little band of merry men are sick.

[NCTraveler]

333. It's all about you. I hope the girls you victimized were able to move on.

It was well known back then that it was rape. What was rare was the girls ability to go to the authority's. So much due to society they had to let you, a rapist, walk. You are a monster to them.

[LittleBlue]

344. What if she's drunk but not unconscious?

First of all, I've never had sex with anyone who was unconscious (to my knowledge), and find it revolting. That is unquestionably rape.

What if we are both drunk? It's happened quite a few times. Not planned or anything.

What if just she is drunk but isn't unconscious? Seems like once women get really drunk it's practically a sure thing that they'll consent. And by consent, I mean implied, such as responding in certain... reciprocating ways, even if you know their intent that night was originally not to have sex.

If she were unconscious this would be clear cut, but what if she's fully conscious of what she's doing but will consent to practically anything you know otherwise she would think twice about? Of course in the heat of the moment it's damned near impossible to have a dispassionate analysis of such things.

Since rape is being brought up I just wanted to know where people stand on this as I've never gotten a consensus on it.

[jollyreaper2112]

355. I've never been popular enough to have those problems

But I think that would leave you clearly vulnerable to a case of retroactive withdrawal of consent. Human beings can be assholes, goes for both genders. I accept what people say at face value and no means no except I can recount many a conversation where a no meant "try harder." Mind games. I'm thinking of several friends and relatives, happily married, where the man mounted a dogged pursuit and won her over. Huh? In these situations I can't tell the difference between courtship and stalking, it all amounts to whether or not she says "I do" in the end.

I have a low capacity for alcohol and so have never experienced loss of impulse control, blackouts, etc. I'd get sick long before I ever reached such a point. But I know other people can take a lot more than me and it seems incredibly vulnerable to be in a position where you might not even clearly remember what you did and it's your drunken word against her drunken word. How much do you remember? If she changed her mind partway through, would you have even noticed at the time? Once consent is withdrawn it's nonconsensual and it can be withdrawn at any time during.

Personally, I hate ambiguity. Yes means yes, no means no, I don't read minds and I take everything at face value. And if I think I'd be the kind of person she'd regret waking up next to, I wouldn't want any part in that kind of drama. To get the "Did I sleep with you?" eww and shudder face would just feel awful.

[cyberswede]

356. The hell...?

Seems like once women get really drunk it's practically a sure thing that they'll consent.

And how could you not know if you were having sex with someone who was unconscious?

[seabeyond]

359. ya. right there with you, lol

[LittleBlue]

369. let me explain

There have been times when both of us must have blacked out some time before or during the act. Neither of us remembered if the other consented because neither of us could remember what happened.

[FightForMichigan]

363. Implied consent = no consent

If you're drunk to the point where your thinking is impaired, you can't give consent. Full stop. How do I know? When a woman comes to a hospital following a rape and needs an exam done, the nurse will not do it until she is sober enough to give her consent. If a nurse won't do an exam on someone following a rape because she can't give consent, she damn well couldn't have given consent to have sex an hour earlier.

[Gormy Cuss]

378. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

345. Yes

And I hope aw enforcement reads your spontaneous confession, congrats, this s admissible in court...a victim comes forward and you know the rest.

[Festivito]

346. You need to heal as much as does your victim.

And, posting this is a good step.

I'll suggest that you knew that you listened to voices that you knew better than to believe. Now, that long ago fault haunts you to this day that you didn't stand up to that jock, that loud mouth, that person in authority, that sly speaker, whoever it was or they were. There was a small voice inside you and you let one or more of these other people to lead you, yourself, to crush it so you could trade it for some greed.

That voice is still there beaten and bruised yet still trying to reach you. I hope you find it again, hear it, strengthen it, ...

and heal.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

350. Your OP should have started off with

"I'm a scumbag who should have gone to jail." Anything less is bullshit.

[KatyMan]

360. The OP is a rapist and a coward.

Assuming this isn't a troll post just looking for reaction. If it is, well, the OP is a prick.

But if it's a true post, why don't you post your real name and where you live so women everywhere know to avoid you? How about going to the local police station and naming the names of the others in your rape club? That would be coming clean and educating about rape.
Otherwise, you know what? Your post reads like you're bragging about it.

[Tallulah]

364. Did you

fuck any disabled, mentally challenged girls too ?

You should be in prison you piece of shit. You were and are a rapist.

[Rex]

371. I cannot believe anyone is listening to this crap

and talking this 'person' seriously. You had sex with passed out women? What the fuck is wrong with you? That is not socially accepted behavior and you know this...every sane person knows this, (your blaming of the hormones is very trollish) I find this to be in very bad taste - but you wanted to go there.

I don't believe the sincerity of this poster for even one second.

I hope this little 'story' of yours comes back to bite you in the ass.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

373. Were you a rapist?

At the time? Yes.

In reality? Yes.

For the rest of your life? Yes!

[lunasun]

376. Peer pressure and horny?? I predicted the "God's will " jerk offs would come out of the woodwork

after Akin/Murdock for past redemptors but since you are so "progressive" I guess peer pressure and too horny to know better fits your sorry ass brain

I am not from the south but this is not acceptable behavior and surprised no one's daddy or brother didnt have a shotgun up your ass for any of your rapes and it sounds like there were plenty of them.

Back then you had a girlfriend and there were prostitutes for those who didn't and then there has always been assholes with lame excuses for their actions and that is what you are doing making an excuse for what you did so YOU do not feel bad now

Wise up - you do not care about any of the women & you make many excuses for why it was acceptable -grow a real pair

Yeah all my friends wanted to beat up that gay so it was peer pressure that is why I joined in

My pedophile friend told me children are fun and they seemed "fair game" and I had to stick it somewhere so I tried it because he said so but now I want to redeem

All BS like sorry I raped you -God's will /legitimate rape crap
just a different twist

I also predicted that loud music /party rockin could get you killed in some areas after Trayvon case (Zimmerman said he had remorse afterwards too ...)
and that is out there today too at some gas station....killer dude is probably sorry now though so in his head it is OK since he is sorry.

your comment >Thank god for the "sluts". tells where you head is at and your heart too so many years later.
If you ever really grow up you need to stop fooling your self

[mahina]

377. Bye now.

Sick.

[Whisp]

380. Hey everyone. This guy is just yanking your chains

or he is a criminal.Neither one is acceptable.

This post is sick beyond the immediate reason why it is sick.

Don't give criminals sympathy or understanding, please.

Skinner should shut this guy down and report to the police.

This is an admission of a crime, just as if he was admitting here that he killed people in the past - but according to him he really believed it was self defense so it's alright. It's still a crime whatever the hell the voices in his head were telling him.

[morningfog]

381. I was considering writing a copycat OP:

Was I a murderer?

At the time, no. But in reality, probably.

At the time, I thought a "murderer" was some guy who hid out in the shadows and grabbed some girl and did physical violence to her in the shadows.

Outside of that, women were "fair game". I mean, I was a testosterone-laden teen who needed to get my aggression out somewhere! Seriously, if I didn't get to fuck something up I would have gone crazy!

Thank god for the "sluts". These were the girls who came to the parties hoping just to party. In our eyes, they very fact that they appeared at these parties meant that they agreed to pass out and be killed.

I will admit that I got the better of many women that could be considered Mureder. Except that at the time it was considered Acceptable Behavior.

I was WRONG. But I didn't know that I was wrong. I thought that I was just like "everyone else".

Therefore, I support education about Murder.

______________________________________________

I can't believe the OP still is standing. Sick sign of the state of DU.

[Whisp]

385. jury voted 1-5 to keep.

the sickness at DU is getting viral.

jesus.

[forestpath]

387. That literally made me feel ill. DU is now OFFICIALLY enabling rapists.

I agree with you that this guy should be in jail!

[Rider3]

383. Yes, I'd consider you a rapist

Glad you grew up and realized your actions were terribly wrong.

[Whisp]

384. he should pay.

if he's telling the truth he should turn himself in and pay like all rapists should pay.

this buddy buddy talkies with the freak is making me sick.

Skinner, do something for fucks sake.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

386. You were a rapist.

I was a pretty fucking horny dude in my teens, but the thought never, ever crossed my mind to fuck a girl who was passed out. What gratification did you get from doing that?

Sorry, no pity here.

[kestrel91316]

388. The only DUers that have labeled themselves various forms of "lefty"

have turned out to be, well, NOT. So your youthful douchbaggery is not surprising. Nor is your claim to have changed.

Translation: I have my suspicions about you.