General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYa think? The days of labeling something Christian and having people think that is good, honest and
trustworthy are over. Done! Too bad for these good Christians we've always been told about but they had since the 50s to push back against this fundamentalist crap and didn't want to. I'm seeing a little bit now but too little too late I'm afraid.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/most-christians-think-christians-are-becoming-less-popular-in-the-u-s/ar-BB1oTHGW?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=2f39b98e762f4a39a7138a6f3e82ae17&ei=17
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niyad
(132,440 posts)"christian" is on my to-be-avoided list. Their yellow pages really help in this regard, as does the cross in their ads, or words like "christian values". The same with politicians.
AZ8theist
(7,377 posts)...plus any organization with the word "Family" in it I will avoid like the plague.
Bullshit hypocrites. I don't think any of them ever actually read the BuyBull.
I have, and all it does is reinforce my militant atheism.
Oopsie Daisy
(6,670 posts)* when I see it on business doors, or their vans/trucks, or any type of printed ad or flyer.
brewens
(15,359 posts)I was stupid and sometimes drove drunk. I thought if some cop was gullible enough, that might help me out. Who knows? Maybe it saved me a speeding ticket or something. 
Oopsie Daisy
(6,670 posts)* and/or a sticker indicating membership in the Police Benevolent Association/Foundation, or a donor to the Fraternal Order of Police.
brewens
(15,359 posts)supporter.
niyad
(132,440 posts)
magicarpet
(18,511 posts)The heavans look down upon us and ask,...
"What would Satan do" - because they did exactly that.
Historic NY
(40,037 posts)Perhaps they should ponder those that have hijacked the moniker
overleft
(404 posts)There is nothing 'christlike' about their behavior and actions.
EYESORE 9001
(29,732 posts)my hand metaphorically covers my wallet.
lonely bird
(2,941 posts)Same applies to anyone who calls themselves a man/woman of god.
ArkansasDemocrat1
(3,213 posts)
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)brewens
(15,359 posts)operation. It sucks if they get screwed but that's how they learn.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #5)
Mariana This message was self-deleted by its author.
brewens
(15,359 posts)found. He bragged about his family of three being covered for under $600 bucks a month. I went to school with the guy, so no, he hadn't just fallen off a turnip truck.
He posted that crap and had a bunch of his Jesus MAGAt buddies excited about it but for some reason shut off comments on the post. I think I know why.
It was a scam! LOL They even used the haul to start a pot farm! LOL
https://www.propublica.org/article/liberty-healthshare-healthcare-sharing-ministries-obamacare
Abolishinist
(2,956 posts)Talk about an unregulated industry and the crime family it produced. This would make for an interesting documentary film as well.
How Obamacare Enabled a Multibillion-Dollar Christian Health Care Cash Grab
"An even bigger coup came in 2010 with the passage of the Affordable Care Act. The act required that all Americans carry health insurance — a provision called the individual mandate — or face a fine. But with help from Republican Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, a conservative lobbyist working for the Alliance managed to slip in an exemption, which gave anyone who belonged to a health care sharing ministry a pass on the mandate.
The exemption — 200 words in a 900-page bill — didn’t just save the industry. It propelled it. Health care sharing ministries now offered a legal and financially attractive alternative for consumers. They drew thousands of members who were opposed to President Barack Obama’s hallmark legislation, but they also appealed to many more who wanted a better deal than what they could find on the new insurance marketplace. Before Obamacare, maybe 40,000 people belonged to health care sharing ministries. Four years later, the Alliance boasted that the number of people enrolled in ministries had jumped to a million."
------------------------------
"Liberty spent more than $200,000 a year between 2017 and 2021 to be a top sponsor at CPAC, vaulting the sharing ministry and its chief executive to the main stage of the high profile conservative political event. Bellis was given a prime speaking slot in 2018, following Fox News host Laura Ingraham. At the next year’s conference, then-President Donald Trump famously hugged a U.S. flag as he took the stage for his keynote address, with a large Liberty logo to his right."
twodogsbarking
(18,781 posts)sop
(18,619 posts)"Non-Christians living among us (are) not entitled to political equality, nor (should they) deny the people of God their right to order civil institutions to God. The Christian’s posture toward the earth ought to be that it is ours, not theirs, for we are co-heirs in Christ."
Most Americans, and rightly so, are fed up with this sort of militant fundamentalist christianity. As James Madison wrote: "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
Response to sop (Reply #11)
ancianita This message was self-deleted by its author.
sop
(18,619 posts)ancianita
(43,307 posts)
Wednesdays
(22,602 posts)ancianita
(43,307 posts)
2naSalit
(102,793 posts)They, too, seek power over the masses and it been so since the beginning.
I have seen them as a group to avoid since my childhood when I had to deal with several zealots in my immediate family. Their prescription for how my life should be lived was not agreeable to me in any way so I got TF away from them asap.
I see any religious group inserting itself into the political environment as a threat to democracy.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)Churches are given blanket tax exemptions for no other reason than they are a church. The expectation is that if an organization is a church, they automatically provide a benefit to the community and thereby deserve a tax exemption. Think about that for a moment. Even if a church is allowing it's employees to molest children and are legally allowed to cover up those crimes from law enforcement, they still get a tax deduction! Meanwhile other charitable organizations that actually do provide a benefit to society must prove that benefit before being granted a tax exemption.
brewens
(15,359 posts)like everyone else. Political or not. We don't need the government wasting time and money deciding who is violating separation of church and state. Shitcan the tax exemptions for churches and clergy and let the chips fall where they may.
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)The state won't tax the churches but the churches have to keep their damned noses out of state business, like who can marry whom & who gets emergency healthcare without having to stop at the courthouse first. I thought that was why we didn't tax churches & maybe we should remind them of that.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)The church tax exception is contained in 501(c)(3) of the tax code which allows for a blanket exemption for qualified religious organizations, but also includes many other types of organizations which must meet specific qualifications identifying a public benefit. The prohibition on political activities applies to any 501(c)(3) organization, not just churches.
Congress decided churches deserved a complete tax exemption simply because they were religious in nature. They could revoke this at any time by changing 501(c)(3) and require churches to identify public enrichment as their primary function. The shitstain Westboro Baptist Church gets a complete tax exemption regardless of how much hate speech fuckery it produces.
DBoon
(24,983 posts)Set up the religion of scientology so he wouldn't have to pay taxes on the royalties from Dianetics.
Johnny2X2X
(24,207 posts)We will know them by their works. So what is a real Christian these days? Or in the past? Were the Nazis "Real Christians"?
In America today, when someone pronouncers that they're a Christian, you're usually going to hear hatred, bogotry, and cruelty in the next breath. So that's what Real Christianity is for me right now. Hatred and violence towards the poor, towards the sick, towards immigrants, and towards LGTBQ people. Those are the most visible works of modern US Christians.
And it's a shame too as there are other works being done, but they are being done by less vocal Christians. Ministries to care for the sick, homeless, drug addicted, and poor are overwhelmingly religious based. Christian groups are also at the forefront of adoption of disabled children, many of who have good lives because families are willing to take them in.
Catholic hospitals are often the only not for profit hospitals in many cities and they're usually the ones catering to the poor and underserved. In my city, it could not be more obvious, the for profit Hilton like hopsitals are like resorts and are in nicer areas. The Catholic non profit hospital is right smack dab in the inner city in what is the area with the most homeless people, the most drug addicts, and the most crime.
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)I have a good friend who I didn't know was Christian for three years! He never mentioned church, God, Jesus, or praying until one day when we met for coffee & he was really upset & it was over some rude people at his church & he said, "I'm rethinking if this is the right church for me & I've been going there for years." This was back in 2010-11 when the tea party, the precursor to Maga, was ramping up.
niyad
(132,440 posts)care in an area, and women are screwed, especially with reproductive care.
dalton99a
(94,115 posts)dembotoz
(16,922 posts)the local catholic church runs and staffs the food pantry
meals for the homeless done by my church
In theory you should be able to see a christian for what they do for others.
The church i attend is all about that.
It is not to enforce you code down others throats.
I do not have time for them or that.
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)One day I was riding the bus & heard a couple of young women talking & they were headed to the thrift shop where they had been given coupons to purchase a job interview outfit. A few months later I checked out the store & they had really nice stuff & it was well organized & if I had been shopping for clothes for work I would have easily found something. When I retired I gave all my shoes & work clothes to them.
Mariana
(15,626 posts)Of course there would be more of them doing good works, because there are more of them to do it.
Dr. T
(647 posts)selling rapture insurance. My pitch line? "After you are raptured up into the clouds, we will take care of your sinful loved ones left behind."
I see no downside.
Celerity
(54,407 posts)
https://aftertherapturepetcare.com/
The After The Rapture Pet Care Story
The idea came from seeing someone else’s joke. An atheist created a site in England that said she’d take care of Christian-owned pets after the Rapture, and asked for 70 pounds as a “donation.” She promoted it as a joke, and it virally made the rounds amongs non-believers who enjoy making fun of Christians. My husband saw it (he’s an Internet geek) and told me about it. Admittedly, it seemed funny.
I told my friend, Karen, who is not a Christian, and she brought up a question: “Hey, if you get raptured, what happens to Petey?” It was an excellent question, and I didn’t have an answer. A couple weeks later Karen came back and suggested we start After The Rapture Pet Care together. She said she had asked several Christian friends the same question she’d asked me, and every one of them would pay for a service to ensure the care of their pets after the Rapture. I had also asked some fellow Christians their thoughts.
In every case they wished there was a way to prepare for their pets’ survival. While planning our system, we thought about the stories of pet rescues in New Orleans after Katrina. Imagine how many more pets would have been saved if there had been a database of pets and volunteers activated immediately. This is something we could do for Christian owned pets. Karen began recruiting other non-Christian animal lovers nationwide to volunteer to take care of left-behind pets if the Rapture occurs.
As a Christian, my role has been to put together a program that is Biblically appropriate and provides true value to Christians. I believe we’ve come up with a plan that is affordable, unique, Biblical and practical. We have created a database structure that is stored on multiple secure servers, with multi-location online and offline password-protected backups. While I don’t intend to be here when the Rapture occurs, we are building a network of non-Christians who have agreed to rescue and care for our members’ pets if we all disappear. Yes, it seems funny at first. But, if you believe there is a coming Rapture, and you love your pets, it becomes serious. And that’s what we are – serious about the safety and care of your pets, as well as your peace of mind.
snip
Dr. T
(647 posts)I was just going to fleece the flock and pad my retirement income. As Faux News has proven, they are easy marks.
Celerity
(54,407 posts)
keithbvadu2
(40,915 posts)
ashredux
(2,928 posts)Is Christianity, as we now see it in politics today, following Christ’s teachings?
Jesus' teachings emphasized the importance of love, compassion, forgiveness, and service to others. He taught his followers to love their enemies, to treat others as they would like to be treated, and to put the needs of others before their own.
What we see today in politics, what many call Christianity, is not Christianity.
The far right in politics has perverted the teachings of Christ.
Romans 16:18
“For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”
King James Version (KJV)
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)since the late 4th century when it became the state religion of the Roman Empire. And before that Christians were busy killing each other over the true nature of christ, and their heretical wars continued on and off up to modern times. Our christo-fascists are very much aligned with the history of this religion.
ashredux
(2,928 posts)CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)Christianity Today Editor: Evangelicals Call Jesus “Liberal” and “Weak”
A former evangelical leader is sounding the alarm about the direction his religion is headed in.
Tori Otten
August 10, 2023/10:34 a.m. ET
https://newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak
snip...
The editor in chief of Christianity Today is warning that evangelical Christianity is moving too far to the right, to the point that even Jesus’s teachings are considered “weak” now.
more...
Moore told NPR in an interview released Tuesday that multiple pastors had told him they would quote the Sermon on the Mount, specifically the part that says to “turn the other cheek,” when preaching. Someone would come up after the service and ask, “Where did you get those liberal talking points?”
“What was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, ‘I’m literally quoting Jesus Christ,’ the response would not be, ‘I apologize.’ The response would be, ‘Yes, but that doesn’t work anymore. That’s weak,’” Moore said. “When we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we’re in a crisis.”
Metaphorical
(2,634 posts)If you take a look at the evolution of televangelism over the last Century, Trump's "ascension" was pretty much inevitable. A good televangelist understands that there are really three types of parishioners in his flock - the gullible, who usually gravitate towards the loudest, gaudiest voice out there seeking to do "good" because they believe others will like them better, the self-righteous, who want validation of their own bigoted beliefs,, and the brown-shirt, who perceive themselves as predators who want to be like bigger, more successful predators. The televangelist cons the gullible by telling them of the good works that they can be doing by donating to him. The self-righteous are easy - he gives them enemies to despise and look down upon, while validating their own beliefs. Trump has added the brown shirts, which is more along the lines of a rw politician - those people who are themselves psychopaths and want to be given the authority to beat people up.
Trump recognized that he was not going to win over the ones who believed in Christ's teachings as a model for behavior, and never really even tried. Instead, he went after those who went to Church because it stoked their fires of self-importance and righteousness, and it legitimized what had been seen as undesirable traits - greed, avarice, lust, violence, lying, etc. He told them "Believe in me, and you can become like me."
Finally, there are the people who see Trump exactly for what he is, but also see him as the agent to tear down the establishment (by which they usually mean the democratic government but also entrenched corporate structure) in favor of an authoritarian state where they have all the power. This is just another form of aristocracy, ultimately with a despotic king in the center of it. I'm afraid to say it, but within the tech sector, where I work, there is very definitely a quasi-religious movement at the upper echelons, and they are drawn to Trump to a disturbing degree.
Fortunately, I think Trump is losing (maybe has lost) the more positive Christian values folk, but he's insanely adept a manipulating himself as an idol.
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)Now it’s fascistic and creepy.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)voters, are Christians who, in fact, fought against fundamentalism (that adheres to Old Testament rules) because they've known that fundamental beliefs of the OT were literally superseded by the literal, exact words that Jesus (as in the "Christ" of Christianity -- the whole point of Christianity) -- meaning what what Jesus actually said.
Jesus was the original woke. Our Christian President Biden talks of forces of light and dark, and so did Jesus. Christian Democrats make up at least half our party. Who do you think voted against right wing evangelism of the Republican Party all these election cycles?
Before you declare "gone are the days," do some homework before you make some divisive attack on fellow Democrats.
For example, Christians house the majority of the homeless in this country.
They also own 20% of the 6,120 hospitals in the U.S.
Christians run hundreds of food banks through churches, and Christian churches also coordinate with secular food banks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_bank
"Faith based" is what they're called. They feed between 46 to 53 million people in this country.
https://www.chn.org/voices/fact-week-1-7-americans-rely-food-pantries/#:~:text=More%20than%2046%20million%20Americans,last%20week%20by%20Feeding%20America.
https://localfoodbank.org/how-many-people-use-food-banks/#:~:text=And%20just%20last%20year%2C%20it,height%20of%20the%20health%20crisis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951938/
First Amendment rights are technically fine for opinionated arguments without source links, but they are also a poor framing for general discussion. This thread doesn't advance understanding of a demographic in our party, just some group validation of a broad brush overgeneralization of an entire religion, as if any religion (or race, or gender, or party) can be judged by its worst members.
Seriously?
This OP is divisive. You might as well be saying, "I don't trust Democratic Christians from Biden on down, because they have failed to fight fundamentalism..."
B.See
(8,502 posts) brewens
(15,359 posts)believe despite never having seen a shred of evidence of any kind of God. It's mostly that so many other people believe, and it was the same going back to the Sumerians. That's all they've got, ever had or ever will have.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)Of the thousands of religions on the planet, Christianity exists EXACTLY because of evidence.
TEN non-Christian writers -- who range from neutral to decidedly anti-Christian — wrote about Jesus within 150 years of his life, death and resurrection. They were witnesses of Jesus showing himself as God; they were among the over 500 witnesses of what Jesus said about his mission, who he said he was before his death and after his witnessed resurrection which before and after, he said what humans should do to live "on Earth as it is in heaven."
While archaeology has been catastrophic in verifying claims of other religions, over 20,000 archaeological digs continue to corroborate the evidence presented by the writers of the New Testament and the OT.
"Good" science is disproven all the time. That doesn't mean science is a hoax or a "religion" that people believe in. Along with bad laws, even good laws (like Roe v Wade) have been overturned. One of the great points MLK made in his Letter (to fellow pastors) from the Birmingham Jail is that laws can be unjust.
"Good" knowledge, older than science, that established Laws, judges, statutes, eyewitness testimony, rules of evidence -- drawn from a thousand years prior -- are still used as the basis of Common Law and International Law to this day. Instead of being disproven as a hoax or a religion, the ancient biblical record and as a history of their practice, has some to benefit all of the West, from "we the people" rule of law and democracy to international courts.
Biblical principles listed above were recorded over 2 millennia by some 40+ writers (most of whom didn't live at the same time or know each other) across 3 continents.
Atheists and agnostics should know that these ancient texts stand as foundational to Western modern law and order, the same law and order that today’s systems of science, politics, and business -- and all non-believers -- benefit from.
50+% of Democrats, including presidents Carter, Obama and Biden, know that over 5,000 documents -- parchments, scrolls, Qumran scrolls, epistles, archaeological records etc. -- ground the veracity and historicity of the Christian Bible (e.g., Biden swore his oath of office on this family's 100 yr old Bible ) more than any other ancient text on Earth -- dating from the 2nd Century BCE.
Even our modern technologists and scientists hold to these fact based beliefs, including the inventor and project head of the Voyager I, the farthest satellite humans have ever sent into the cosmos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology
The reasons 41% of scientists give are that their studies further deepen their spiritual beliefs. Awe in research of the micro/macro universes is only a human reaction to the beyond-all-universes kind of consciousness that, for the always-was/always-will be eternity of the universes, and for lack of other words, and/or for shorthand, they still call God.
The God of the Bible and humankind's sciences are entirely compatible.
Quotes from two (of many) scientists:
Francis S. Collins, PhD Yale; MD, UNC, Chapel Hill:
"The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. He can be worshipped in the cathedral or in the laboratory. His creation is majestic, awesome, intricate...and it [creation] cannot be at war with itself. Only we imperfect humans can start such battles. And only we can end them."
Ian Hutchinson, PhD, Engineering Physics, Nuclear Engineer and Physicist at MIT:
I take the Bible very seriously... and would affirm the notion that it is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, reproof and correction....But that doesn't mean that when we come to it, our particular interpretations are always affirmed by God."
Quotes from our presidents:
Teddy Roosevelt: "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
Harry Truman: "The fundamental basis of this nation's laws was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul...If we don't have a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody but the State!"
Jimmy Carter: "Homosexuality was well known in the ancient world, well before Christ was born, and Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. In all of his teachings about multiple things, he never said that gay people should be condemned."
Joe Biden: "“Faith sees best in the dark ...Like so many people, my faith has been the bedrock foundation of my life: it’s provided me comfort in moments of loss and tragedy, it’s kept me grounded and humbled in times of triumph and joy...
And in this moment of darkness for our country — of pain, of division, and of sickness for so many Americans — my faith has been a guiding light for me and a constant reminder of the fundamental dignity and humanity that God has bestowed upon all of us.”
Donald Trump: "I don't bring God into that picture. I don't."
brewens
(15,359 posts)any of that up.
I'm not on here to waste my time arguing with apologists though.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)If that makes me, 51+ percent of Democrats, and all our past presidents but one (trump) "apologists," then the rest of your 210 million fellow Americans are, as well.
Glad you won't waste your time "arguing," since a) you've got no argument, and b) you're not the only audience here anyway.
keithbvadu2
(40,915 posts)One of our customers came into the volunteer office to complain about one of the volunteers. Every third statement was: "I'm a Christian." Over and over. His neighbor told us that he got fired from the government for stealing.
Mariana
(15,626 posts)that Christians in general are better people than non-Christians. History shows us very clearly that they are not.
hunter
(40,690 posts)I don't think I ever had any warm fuzzy feelings about "Christianity."
Our official Wild West family religion was "Not Mormon." Seriously, that's what brought my grandparents together, what they had in common.
But during the Christmas season and other important religious holidays all the adults in my life would go insane, none of them agreeing how, when, or if these "holy days" should be celebrated. Sometimes these wars were cold, sometimes hot.
I had only one grandmother who celebrated the Hallmark Television U.S.A. style "Christian" Christmas.
I can imagine homogeneous communities where the Christian label implied goodness, honesty, and trustworthiness, but that's never been my experience.
Dave Bowman
(7,159 posts)
dawg
(10,777 posts)that are demonstrated by Jesus Christ in the four Gospels of the New Testament. It's a message of love, mercy, and forgiveness (although there will always be people who will try to twist the words to make it seem otherwise).
i did try to fight intolerance, harshness, legalism, and hate from within the church. But life events eventually overwhelmed me, and I just couldn't do it anymore. I stopped going to church, although my faith hasn't changed.
I think a thousand brilliant and eloquent sermons cannot do what the ordinary Christian could do in one day just by treating others in a kind manner. Followers of my faith are commanded to love our neighbors as our selves. I would never want to be treated the way these fundamentalists treat some of my brothers and sisters. To me, these hypocritical people calling themselves Christians, but ignoring the teachings of Christ, are heretics. They are driving people away from God. They need to be lovingly corrected, but for the most part they are not even open to the possibility that they might be in the wrong.
onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)DBoon
(24,983 posts)As long as you say the right things and use the right symbols, you will have the trust of many naive people and the ability to run off with their money.
Fortunately, atheists tend to be honest.
brewens
(15,359 posts)Remember Ralph Reed? You don't see him so much any more but he put on the look. Had to shave five times a day to do it! LOL
If I remember right Reed was thrown out of his first college for plagiarism and had to go to Jesus school if he wanted to get anywhere.
Skittles
(171,710 posts)you can make them believe anything 