No matter what our opinions are, we have to be fact-based here.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

I took a break from posting a while ago due to too much infighting about Israel-Palestine. But I haven't stopped reading, and this latest sparring over whether President Biden should be the party's nominee feels even worse.

I'm personally undecided about this issue. In the end, only Biden himself can make the decision to step down-- it would be way too difficult to change the ticket against his will. I hope he and his advisors can make a clear, rational decision about what the best course of action is. Defeating Trump is the only objective in November, no matter who the Democratic candidate is.

Having said that, I'm very dismayed at what seems to be a developing orthodoxy at DU that is veering towards conspiracy theories and shutting out inconvenient facts. We all know today's GOP has turned itself into an alternate-reality echo chamber where fiction becomes fact and reality is ignored. We don't want to start down the same path.

If our view of the world requires believing that

* the NYT, CNN, WaPo, and basically every other mainstream news sources is out to get Trump elected,
* polls commissioned by these outlets and done by reputable pollsters are conspiracies designed in advance to attack Biden,
* editorials saying that Trump is a serious threat to our country and that Biden may not be the best person to run against him are in fact pro-Trump,
* the debate format was a trick and the CNN moderators in the bag,
* Democratic leaders such as Pelosi, Clyburn, Whitehouse, and various governors are stupid in being concerned,
* DU members who have been here for over a decade are trolls and saboteurs, or bedwetters or pearl-clutchers, and
* anything posted to the contrary of the above should be ignored or banned

it just might be that it's us whose viewpoint is clouded by bias and what we want to see. (Those aren't even the most fanciful things I've read. Some have suggested that Biden was deliberately drugged by Trump or a CNN staffer.)

Like I said, I don't know what the right path forward is. But I think the following is a pretty accurate description of the current situation:

* Biden was at best tied with Trump going into the debate, and quite possibly trailing slightly
* A large percentage of the population, including a sizable percentage of Democrats, were worried beforehand about Biden's age.
* Biden's performance at the debate was alarming in that respect.
* Post-debate polling by reputable firms is not yet conclusive, but is beginning to show a shift away from Biden. NYT, WSJ, internal Dem pollsters, etc.
* Many Democrats who love Joe Biden and desperately want to defeat Trump are worried that Biden may not be the right person to do it. This includes a lot of elected leaders. It is not the sole province of trolls and scaremongers.

I'm not going to try to explain what I personally think is the right choice-- I don't know. I don't think anybody does. But I do think we should at least agree on the same set of facts before we talk about what's next.

[NewHendoLib]

1. Well stated. I've posted very little since the Israel Palestine

Quagmire broke, and nothing since the debate. My wife and I are embedded in our gardening, hiking and kayaking. Nothing else makes any sense.

[snot]

2. Fwiw, Predictit currently places the odds re- the Presidential election as follows:

"Who will win the 2024 US presidential election?"

Trump 60
Biden 23
Harris 21
Gavin Newsom 5
RFK Jr. 3

https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election

(This is supposedly how people who like to place bets on things there are betting. Looking at some other betting sites, the numbers as I understand them look more less equally dismal.)

[Nimble_Idea]

8. I also go to predictit for all my financial decisions fwiw

[Lucky Luciano]

13. If these sites were more liquid, they would be valid ways to estimate odds.

[SoFlaBro]

16. Well if that shitstain predictitt said it, then it must be the fucking gospel.

[quakerboy]

25. While i think we have a serious problem

I also think that any site giving RFK any full digit % chance has to be considered less than serious. I dont think its exagerating to say that literally every other candidate and potential candidate would have to be removed from the ballot to give him a chance. And even if he was the only name on the ballot.. he'd likely still lose to a write in.

[Traurigkeit]

55. Easy Money on Biden

[FBaggins]

61. I think we're more likely to lose than win at this point

But I would be a big buyer of Biden contracts at those odds.

[Lucky Luciano]

67. Transaction costs are very high, so not clear if there is easy money

[radius777]

87. The 'Dem nomination' odds have moved to about

50:50 between Biden and Harris, which says that the market thinks that if Biden isn't the nominee, then it likely will be Harris.

https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7057/Who-will-win-the-2024-Democratic-presidential-nomination

[Xavier Breath]

3. K & R.

[Silent3]

4. Thank you.

You'll probably get a handful of recs for this smart, thoughtful post.

If, however, you had posted nothing more than "WE'RE WITH YOU JOE!!!!" or "FUCK THE NYT!!!!" you'd probably get hundreds of recs.

[Irish_Dem]

28. People like lots of exclamation points!!!!!! AND CAPS.

[Think. Again.]

41. GREAT POST!!!

[Irish_Dem]

43. I'd like to read your comment but you only have four exclamation points.

I have standards you know.

[japple]

51. My limit is 3 exclamation points. Except when someone forgets to use the sarcasm

smilie. Then I blast 'em and use 4 or 5.

[Irish_Dem]

52. Use all caps too. Fight fire with fire.

[Wingus Dingus]

5. Most people here are very loyal to the President, and believe that keeping the faith

will work out for us in the end. A lot of them really really love Joe Biden. Some of them do not believe Harris can win, which only increases their willingness to stick with Biden. I have no emotional investment or attachment to Biden/Harris, I just want a Democratic candidate who can kick Trump's ass, and I honestly don't feel that Biden has another full term left in him, especially with recent reports coming out about his lapses. So I feel a bit detached from the "ONLY JOE CAN WIN!!" crowd. It's really a shitty situation and I'm actually starting to feel some anger that we're in this mess.

[Think. Again.]

42. Um, it is not a possibility to successfully replace Biden on the ticket.

[Irish_Dem]

56. Well said WD.

I agree.

My goal is to defeat fascism and preserve our democracy.
The stakes could not be higher and we must find a way forward.

I have no agenda how we do it. I am not emotionally attached to any one idea
or person, even though I love Joe Biden. It is way bigger than any one man or woman.

Yes I am starting to feel some anger today as well that we are in this mess.
I am feeling we have been let down by one group and set up by another.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

70. We must support the nominee.

You said,

"I honestly don't feel that Biden has another full term left in him"

, which honestly seems like a negative thing to say against Biden.

Really, I don't know how we can have this discussion.

As EarlG said,

"Which is why the current talk on DU of replacing Biden seems to me like a purely academic exercise born out of panic (not to mention, ahem, a violation of DU rules, since we declared an official end to Primary Season months ago). "

[Nimble_Idea]

6. I know the right choice, pretty easy

It is Biden. Our Nominee.

[Goodheart]

7. He is not yet officially our candidate.

[Nimble_Idea]

9. so then we can continue the primary debates?

someone unblock all those other posts. mistakes have been made!

[blurplenurple]

10. Thank you!

I've been *so* disappointed by the reaction here. The following comments used to be limited to Republicans:

- The polls are lying [unless they affirm my choice in candidate].
- Only _____ can win.
- Support _____ or you're not a real ________.
- Don't believe what you saw or heard.
- [name-calling]

We've got a real problem if we don't make room for facts, and an even bigger one if we don't allow for diversity of opinion within our party.

[iemanja]

18. Then there is the charge that if you have any concerns about Biden's debate performance

or whether he is the best candidate, you want Trump to be president. That kind of lashing our reveals a profound insecurity about the election that the attacker can't tolerate within themselves.

[Irish_Dem]

34. I agree, we see a deep insecurity about the election or there would not be

so much intense anger and lashing out when discussing the debate.

You made an astute observation.

[Dem4life1234]

27. Because

We are concerned and we do not want the piece of shit back in the white house.

What facts? The media hates the POTUS because they find him boring. That's not his problem. Fuck the media.

[iemanja]

50. No one here wants Trump back in the White House

How is that difficult to comprehend?

[TheKentuckian]

36. What I cannot grok is Only X can win in combination with

it doesn't matter what X does or doesn't do.

How is X both indispensable and X's campaign is all but irrelevant and we can carry them both true?

If it is all on us to carry who ever then the who ever cannot make much difference.

I think it is on who ever and us and who ever has to do some heavy lifting for us to be in position to get them over the finish line.

[snot]

11. Another aspect:

Why are we now mired in argument and anxious uncertainty about Biden's ability to beat Trump? Isn't it partly because the DNC made the decision not to hold primaries, and Biden chose not to participate in those organized by other organizations? Primary participation would have tested Biden's acuity and given us a better chance sooner to ensure we had the best candidate to beat Trump. Why didn't Biden's backers want to put Biden to that test? There are probably a number of reasons, but it's hard to rule out that they included the fear that he would fail it.

[iemanja]

19. Well, technically there were primaries

but in reality, Biden wasn't challenged. I agree that was problematic.

[snot]

22. Correction: Biden did not participate in any primary debates.

The DNC chose not to hold them, so other organizations did, but Biden did not participate (and I expect the strongest other potential candidates also stayed out out of deference to Biden). Apologies for my confusion about that.

But in sum, we all deferred to the judgment of those in the "back room." And maybe that's not always the best way to arrive at the strongest candidate.

[confoosed]

68. Great idea and hadn't thought about it that way before

I prefer less surprises to more surprises.

[Spencer Martin]

79. Primaries against incumbent presidents tend to end disastrously.

Many here are old enough to remember

1980: Senator Ted Kennedy challenged incumbent President Jimmy Carter for the nomination. Carter emerged victorious but his candidacy was mortally wounded. Result: Reagan in a landslide.

1968: LBJ throws in the towel and announces he won't run for re-election. All of his pledged delegates go to VP Hubert Humphrey who didn't even compete in the primaries. Humphrey wins the nomination in what many viewed as a smoky backroom deal. Result: Nixon in a landslide.

[genxlib]

12. That might be the best take I have seen on this subject

Such logic and thoughtfulness will not be tolerated

Makes me think of one of my favorite scenes in My Cousin Vinny

[hueymahl]

14. Very well done

I don’t have the patience to create this kind of post. Thank you for doing so. Agree 100%

[iemanja]

15. I admire your fealty to reality

and wish you luck with it.

[ImNotGod]

17. Here is one irrefutable fact, President Biden said he is not quitting this race. He is the decider so all this arguing

about should he stay or should he go is moot. He is staying.

[tinrobot]

20. All I know is that I'm anxious beyond measure. Any path forward is a minefield.

I would happily crawl across broken glass to vote for ANY democrat this fall.

But I'm not the average voter, and I'm scared what those voters will/won't do this fall.

[harumph]

21. Look, it's a given that DU members will vote for whomever is the D candidate.

That's a given. I'd vote for a dead cat over Trump. That said, those of us that are "concerned" are worried about the
undecideds, swing voters, lite conservatives and others that we need to overcome the vast zombie army of know-nothings
and ultra-rich assholes that constitute the republican party. Joe has been absolutely brilliant - but in my honest opinion, there is no way he completes a second term. It's too stressful and he really is too old for a two-fer. You can hate on me for my opinion all you want.
I'm a die hard democrat who actually wanted Elizabeth Warren - but Biden has done a GREAT job and he deserves our enduring gratitude. I want to win this race. My family depends on this. Daughter in the military. Teenage son that will come of age
during a possible Trump admin., and I'm scared as shit and not afraid to say it. Biden's advisors need to stop blowing smoke up his ass.

[Ms. Toad]

23. Thank you.

I've been posting since the recent I/P infighting - but have largely stayed out of those threads.

I've also been calling out posts that substitute confirmation bias for facts. But it's a drop in the bucket - and largely just earns the ire of the confirmation bias crowd. It is pretty discouraging.

So thank you for adding your voice to those of us who prefer to live in reality, even if it goes against our political bias.

[Deek1935]

24. Biden is NOT getting out. He said it. End of story. We all need to support our nominee. Period.

[TexasDem69]

32. What does that mean to you?

Support Biden that is? Does it mean ignoring his debate performance and ignoring the polls?

[Deek1935]

48. Debates and polls are completely non-predictive of ultimate presidential election results. Plain and simple. ZERO.

It is GOVERNING that matters and not debates and polls. Polls go up and down and full of variables and are not predictive value. I can give you many examples of where presidential candidates were up or down in the polls and outcome was in contrast to what the polls said. Debates have never mattered. It is GOVERNING RECORD that matters, and Biden's is damn good.

[TexasDem69]

60. You keep saying that and you cite zero evidence

Polls have always been viewed as a relatively reliable predictor of results. And if the polls were more favorable everyone would excitedly post them, but because they aren’t currently favorable they are being characterized as flawed, and some even contend that news organizations are intentionally fixing polls.

If polls were irrelevant then campaigns wouldn’t pay for them and wouldn’t worry when they aren’t favorable. https://newrepublic.com/post/183411/bombshell-poll-swing-states-biden-debate

[dchill]

72. "...ignoring the polls..." would be a good idea.

[Dem4life1234]

37. I'm with you!

I'm with you, sticking by our president. If the GOP can stick by their lawless POS we sure can.

[Skittles]

29. THANK YOU

the way I see it, we are stuck

and there IS only one choice

[texasfiddler]

30. Trump SUX

This is what DU has turned into. Fuck this Shit I am out.

[Skittles]

31. IOW

the truth hurts

[delisen]

33. True. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. There's an Armenian saying that a person who tells hard truths is driven out of a dozen villages

[honest.abe]

38. Thank you.

Exactly how I feel.

[hadEnuf]

39. All this non-stop nonsense about Biden is simply writing Fox news and GOP talking points for them.

Joe Biden is fine.

But if one thinks Biden is an infirm moron walking into walls and Trump is a stable choice, then vote for frigging Trump.

Sheesh.

[Rstrstx]

40. I am trying to be as fact-based as possible, and my mind is made up. If Biden withdraws...

…we have already voted on a Plan B and that is Kamala Harris. She was on the ballot too, and I voted for the ticket knowing full well there are risks associated with voting for someone who would be 86 in January 2029. If Biden drops out Harris is the nominee. Period. And anyone else who voted for Biden voted for her too.

People say there are huge risks associated with it but I’m not among them. She’s been vetted, has the experience, and the age issue goes away immediately. Her poll numbers may not be the best (whose are?) but Americans would finally get what they’ve been telling pollsters all along what they’ve wanted: a race that’s not between two octogenarians. They’ve been telling the pollsters they want someone younger. The Democrats would be the only party offering them that.

Looking at Biden on stage last Thursday was the first time I questioned that he really might not have it in him for another 4 and a half years, before that I thought it was just a bunch of caricaturing from Fox. But it happened and we can’t unsee that, that was not the Biden I saw debating Trump in 2020. I strongly approve of the job he’s been doing as President but I know the job is extremely hard on anyone (who takes it seriously).

If Biden decides to continue on and the Dems think it’s a good idea too of course I’ll support him and eagerly vote for him, Trump simply cannot be re-elected. In the end I don’t know what is really going on behind the scenes but party leadership does and I think this will all be sorted out. But make no mistake, I also voted for Harris and would like my vote to count for something.

[ShazzieB]

74. You just described pretty much where I am at.

Your final paragraph sums things up nicely:

If Biden decides to continue on and the Dems think it’s a good idea too of course I’ll support him and eagerly vote for him, Trump simply cannot be re-elected. In the end I don’t know what is really going on behind the scenes but party leadership does and I think this will all be sorted out. But make no mistake, I also voted for Harris and would like my vote to count for something.

I definitely agree that we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. The main thing we need to do right now, imo, is NOT panic.

[AllaN01Bear]

44. hem. ive been here since 2000 so i take that as a slap in the face

[AllaN01Bear]

45. i also support jo biden, my opinions are just that and do not neccesarly reflects dus opinio

ps , i consider my self not a troll.

[Now is the Time]

46. I'm with Biden

Long time lurker here. Here’s the thing: If Republicans were sane, then sure, we’d have the luxury of our insecurities, worry and fret to our heart’s content. They, by contrast, will not worry about their cult leader but will stick with him like proverbial lemmings. As long as Democrats stay united behind Biden, there is a chance of victory, and even a landslide. When I saw the debate, I grew terrified for the first time, but not about Joe’s performance, but about the narrative that was sure to follow: one of “being reasonable” or “just looking at facts.” It is only unity that had a chance to win. Republicans are united. This is my argument, but signs are that it’s already a losing one. But what comes next? Is there a clear replacement everyone is ready to get behind with enthusiasm and energy? If Democrats can doubt Joe, they can doubt anyone. Or we take a long time to settle on someone after an awkward internecine party struggle.

Here’s the fact of the debate: President Biden only had to convince us, his voters. Debates rarely, and recently never, convince the uncommitted voter, whose status is now more or less fictional. I didn’t need to be convinced.

It was always going to be hard. Biden has been one of the most astoundingly effective presidents in my lifetime of 74 years. Too bad he stutters. Too bad he had a cold. My conclusion about those facts is not to toss out the best chance we have and let a vile, phony, despicable, traitorous liar take over—again. By the way, how did he get in the first time? There was lack of “voter enthusiasm” for Hilary Clinton.

Anyhow, my 2¢. Back to some serious lurking.

[Sessuch]

47. Nice opinions. No Facts

The facts are that we have to stop worrying about Joe Biden and go after Donald Trump. He is a liar. He is a traitor. He is an adulterer. He has build his business on fraud. He is a convicted felon. He is a racist-"black jobs". Through the Heritage Foundation, he has threatened "Revolution", and violence to achieve it. He is lawless. He has championed an army of Proud Boys and Oath Keepers. He has offered pardons to criminals who attacked the Capital.
He has actually pardon convicted criminals like Steve Bannon. He has bowed to Mitch McConnell for stopping Obama's appointment to the Supreme Court and threatened McConnell and Republican Senators to kill an immigration bill. He lies about immigration, then shows he doesn't really care about it. He only cares about himself. In fact, he doesn't care about MAGA people. He just wants their votes. It is about him, not them. Their only worth is their vote.
Donald Trump does not want to be Presidents. He wants to be the Government. The Republicans are falling all over themselves to give it to him. Then, they will use him to try to completely imbue the US with their agenda. Trump is a toadie of the GOP and his narcissism will bring him down.
Grover Norquist made the statement that he wanted to shrink the Government down small enough to drown it in a bathtub. With government Trump he will have the chance,

[Joinfortmill]

49. I hear you, but my take is:

Biden had a cold. He also had jet lag. His debate prep may or may not have been good.
The volume on Joe's mic, by all accounts of the experts, could have been and should have been adjusted. It wasn't.
The drop jaw thing, was actually Joe dropping his jaw at the volume of lies Trump was spouting. I'm 75 and from the side I look pretty much like that when my mouth is open. It's an aging jawline.
All that coupled with journalists who never questioned Trump when they knew or should have known he was lying made for a near impossible situation for Joe, or anyone, for that matter.
Even if none of this was true, which it is, not supporting a President, who by all accounts, is destined to be one of the greats, it's damn fickle of us, not to mention ungrateful, and just plain dumb.
I'm with Joe because, not only is it the smart thing to do, it's the right thing to do. Vote, people, for your country and for the world.

[H2O Man]

53. Thank you!

Recommended.

[dchill]

54. "...only Biden himself can make the decision..."

Pretty much says it all.

[Bobstandard]

57. You want a fact?

Hubert Humphrey.

Here’s another fact: Many of us do indeed have settled positions about what the right choice is. I, for one, see indecision as no virtue And I’m not waiting for ‘new facts’ to emerge before acting to get Biden elected.

[MontanaMama]

58. JFC. Joe had a bad debate.

He spoke in public twice the next day and was on fire. He was great. He had a cold. He felt like shit. He was jet lagged. If anyone is to blame, his schedulers and handlers should have seen that his travel schedule was too much leading up to the debate and being sick was the icing on what turned out to be a turd sandwich. The FACT is that Joe got better over the course of the debate and the Felon got worse. The CNN moderators sat like warts on the ass of humanity and didn’t moderate Jack squat. Meanwhile Dems including members of this forum are doing the work of the rethugs. It is mind boggling. It’s okay to have feelings about the debate performance but your feelings are not facts in terms of Joe Biden’s ability to govern.

[themaguffin]

62. FFS it's not us that need to be told that. Biden needs to get ahead of this. Period.

[MontanaMama]

63. Have you read the comments on this thread

and dozens of others? Clearly members of this forum absolutely need to be told that.

[themaguffin]

64. It doesn't change that good faith discussion can happen.

[dwking66]

59. Thank you for this excellent post and balanced response

I have been afraid to weigh in on this situation for many reasons. For one, in my nearly 70 years I have never seen such a frightening electoral mess as the one we face now. My respect for the president is immense. He has assuredly been the right person to lead us out of the Trump wilderness and his achievements will be viewed most favorably by history. I watched the debate expecting to see the Joe Biden that ate the GOP for lunch at the State of the Union. But sadly, that is not the man who appeared and I was truly alarmed at his obvious struggle to find his thoughts and words. Trump was Trump - lying, obnoxious and menacing. But Biden was NOT Biden. Not even remotely so. We do ourselves no favors by pretending otherwise. The question is whether or not he can continue to be Biden without further lapses. So far, we have only received empty reassurances and dismissive "bedwetting" remarks that are unworthy and do not meet this perilous moment. So tell me, is this old age, or a progressive disease that causes him to lose focus so severely and alarmingly? Which leads me to my second reason for hesitation - I don't want nor deserve people yelling at me or insulting me for supposed "disloyalty" to the president or the party. If that's your game, let me pre-emptively say - GFY! I have been a loyal Democrat and progressive all of my life. My parents took me to march with Cesar Chavez and the United Farm Workers when I could barely walk. Spare me your bullshit. There is way too much blind faith and cheerleading and too little substance going on at this usually smart and inspiring site. The post above is an excellent exception and I felt "safe" to second its clear intention. To help us face this with facts and honesty. The ONLY loyalty that matters right now is to our nation and our democracy. Whoever can kick Trump's evil ass back to the ring of hell from which it spawned is the right choice. After the debate, and the things that are coming out about Biden's other "lapses" in front of staffers etc., I honestly don't know who that is, or what is required to make it so. But whether it is salvaging Biden's campaign, or finding a new champion, we MUST have that discussion without destroying our party and our unity. And we must have it quickly. I am generally, if grudgingly, optimistic. But I believe with Trump surging in the polls, a hostile SCOTUS and Project 2025, we are now at the twilight's last gleaming. Our party leaders must choose wisely, and they must act upon it with speed and accuracy. Then we must support them and VOTE as if this is the last election we will ever have. I look forward to substantive facts and guidance from our party leaders post haste. Anything less is a disservice to us all.

[meadowlander]

65. K&R

[Abolishinist]

66. Very well thought out, and very well stated.

I recall reading this, and more.

Some have suggested that Biden was deliberately drugged by Trump or a CNN staffer.

K&R

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

69. I believe it is required that we support the nominee. Biden is the nominee.

Therefore, any talk that he should be replaced is not living up to the requirement.

Discussions about whether or not Biden should be replaced can go on at the white house. You can send them your opinion.
But here, on this forum, I believe we must support the nominee. And that IS Biden.

[Ms. Toad]

71. Remind me - when did we hold the convention?

I was under the impression that the convention was still in the future.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

73. Presumptive Nominee. I forego the "presumptive" for brevity and, in my opinion, clarity.

Per EarlG,

Which is why the current talk on DU of replacing Biden seems to me like a purely academic exercise born out of panic (not to mention, ahem, a violation of DU rules, since we declared an official end to Primary Season months ago).

[Ms. Toad]

76. Link, please. n/t

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

81. Of Course

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219077397

[Ms. Toad]

84. First - I don't recall a declaration that the primary season was over.

There is not an announcement posted in the Announcements section, as there was in 2020. None in the Democrats forum. There is no Primary forum any longer. And a quick search for EarlG and primary, primaries, or season didn't turn up any such announcement.

And, as EarlG also said at the end of that post, "At least, that's my opinion."

In my opinion, even if I missed a declaration that the Primary Season was over, I don't see a violation of the TOS:

Do not post support for Republicans or independent/third-party "spoiler" candidates.

Nope.

Do not state that you are not going to vote, or that you will write-in a candidate that is not on the ballot, or that you intend to vote for any candidate other than the official Democratic nominee in any general election where a Democrat is on the ballot.

Nope. Pretty much every post I've seen suggesting Biden should consider stepping down (or that Democrats should consider replacing him) includes a statement along the lines that "If Biden is on the ballot, I will vote for him.

Do not post anything that smears Democrats generally, or that is intended to dissuade people from supporting the Democratic Party or its candidates.

Raising concerns about Biden, specifically, is not smearing Democrats generally, and the discussions I've seen are focused on getting more people to support a Democratic Candidate because, in their view, replacing Biden would result in more support for the Democratic presidential candidate.

Don't argue there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats.

Not even close.

Personally, I think the time for changing candidates passed when Biden declared his candidacy. Do I wish he had made a different decision - yes. Although I didn't express it here at the time - I even wished at the time that he had made a different decision. I wish it even more after he decided to toss trans individuals under the bus in order to gain favor with people who don't believe trans people deserve autonomy over their own bodies.

I don't personally see any benefit in discussing changing candidates. But I won't hide any post suggesting it because we haven't yet nominated a candidate, and - as noted above - I see nothing in the TOS that prohibits it.

And, in case there's any doubt - as angry as I am right now, I'll still vote for whoever the Democratic presidential candidate is, because the alternative is exponentially worse. But I'm not going to be silent about LGBTQ+ people, yet again, being sacrificed by Democrats because we're inconvenient.

[Ms. Toad]

89. Biden is the presumptive candidate, but not yet the general election candidate.

That's kind of where we started - you said Biden was the nominee. I said the convention hadn't been held yet, then you posted EarlG's note about the TOS.

Despite what EarlG said, as I noted, I have not seen (nor could I find) any announcement that DU had declared the primary season over - and there have been such announcements in the past. From a party standpoint, it isn't over until either the convention (or an earlier electronic meeting of the delegates to declare him the candidate for purposes of complying with ballot deadlines).

I just don't think our party (and our ability to defeat Trump) is well-served by silencing realistic concerns that - for another month or so - can still be addressed. I don't think blind happy talk is a good thing. So until the convention (or such earlier time as the party declares its candidate for the general election) I won't vote (as a member of the jury) to silence the voices of others who believe that we have a better chance in the general election with a different candidate. From his comment - if EarlG was on the same jury he would vote to hide it. And, since he has superpowers as the site owner - if he felt like it, and the post wasn't hidden, I guess he could hide it on his own.

But, as you noted, this discussion is skating on thin ice. Is it OK to mention the TOS because EarlG did (the owner of the site)? Who knows. Technically, his own post violated the TOS. We're just tagging on. If you want to have a conversation with me about your points via DU mail, feel free to send me a note. I'm open to private conversations (whether we agree or not) as long as they're polite.

[iemanja]

82. Whether the talk is on DU or not is irrelevant

It’s everywhere else in the political landscape, and that is what matters.

[Music Man]

75. A smart, cogent post. Perhaps the best one I've seen on this topic.

And if even if one thinks considering different candidates is "against DU rules", it's not too much to ask for logical, fact-based reasons for dismissing any given poll or unflattering story about Biden. "I'm ridin' with Biden" and "You're a troll" are not analyses.

Thanks, BlueCheese. Incidentally, I love blue cheese.

[Bev54]

77. Please, everyone who is asking Biden to step down, please let us know how many presidential

campaigns have you run or been a candidate in, and how many other successful campaigns you and every other pundit have run. I trust Biden and his campaign advisors, like Ron Klain and others to know the right answer and will act accordingly. Biden is in his 4th presidential campaign and has won many many campaigns in congress. So until you have that kind of experience maybe sit down and let the experts make the decisions and plan for the win.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

83. Both sides need to let that discussion for those in the know

For those of you saying that you want to tell Biden and his team to stay the course, please let us know how many presidential campaigns have you run.

[iemanja]

88. Where did the OP ask Biden to step down?

It doesn't appear you read what the OP said.

[Turbineguy]

78. Like the Devil tries to make you think he doesn't exist,

propaganda seeks to look like well reasoned facts.

[NoMoreRepugs]

80. Baseball analogy - JoeB for 3+ years as opposed to the SlobFather has

been hitting at a Triple Crown level, one day (debate) he went 0 for 4 with 4 strikeouts. Bench him, let’s have a serious discussion about his performance - give me a fucking break.

[Blue Owl]

85. K&R

[Patton French]

90. Unfortunately, opinion and fact are all too often conflated.

You make good points.

[mopinko]

91. it's not a 'theory' that there is a wide spread rw conspiracy to end our democracy.

it’s a fact. i do not believe that everyone in the media has forgotten how to do their jobs.
let’s face it, in 16 they picked up the enquirer headlines, verbatim. headlines planted by the sick fuck himself.
it is a fact that putler has troll farms that flood social media w propaganda, and msm doesnt call that out.
it’s a fact the nyt runs 1 story about tsf’s mental decline to 10 about biden. just like they did w buttery males.
it’s a fact that no one in the media demanded the unredacted mueller report. or reported much about the charges and prosecutions that DID result from that investigation.

and it’s a fact that, as of now, the only paper that has picked up the epstein files story is the guardian.

[LeftInTX]

92. Keep in mind that polls are snapshots in time

Something will displace this in the news cycle.

We don't have much of an option besides Biden.

Although a poll(s) shows Kamala may have a better shot, it's only a hypothetical poll.

Being an actual nominee will expose more of her flaws and put her in the spotlight.
It's gonna be super rushed thing.

Heck, they're even putting Michelle Obama in polls.

She has the highest hypothetical chance.
But should we run her?
Even if Michelle agreed, would she even be a good candidate?

Seriously, she's super likeable, but she's never run for office.


Infighting at the convention will also hurt a new nominee.
A new nominee will likely not have a better chance of defeating Trump
Infighting could hurt down ballot candidates

There are legal issues with nominating a new candidate at the convention.

It's no longer 1968.
The party rules have changed.
State election codes have changed drastically.
A new nominee may not be able to be on all the state ballots.