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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThat feminist poster and mixed messages
This is what I'm hearing:
1. It's offensive to imply that college men need to be educated about what constitutes rape; the vast majority of men would NEVER do that, we all know better than to rape someone under the influence, or coerce them into sex.
2. Education should come entirely in the form of self-defense for potential victims.
3. I would teach my daughter to avoid dangerous situations. For example, I would teach her not to get out-of-control drunk at a bar or frat party because it's reasonable to assume in our culture that a man there might rape her in that situation. Teach her to guard her drink at a bar because it's rational to assume the guy she's with - even if she trusts him - might drug it.
4. Don't teach her that all men are potential rapists. That's bigoted.
5. Teach her to be on her guard in situations where she's alone with men- even those she trusts - because she should treat them all as potential rapists.
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Who and what are we to teach?
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bettyellen
(47,209 posts)than your life is. And you can never guess which men is going to lecture you endlessly just because he has NO EXPERIENCE or KNOWLEDGE of the phenomenon. Make sure you allow them to go on and on about it and not listen one whit, otherwise you're just hurting their feelings.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)I just want to know what, if anything, they would include in the orientation education thing for women.
"It's okay to be drunk and alone in a bar, men are good people and won't take advantage of that. Don't worry about walking alone at night, if you see a man coming up behind you, don't cross the street - instead give him a friendly hello."
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)this subject- and funnily enough it's usually these same men who have little knowledge of men who rape or experience with misogyny.
But they apparently are experts, and we should wait for their instructions here before we dare insult any of these delicate flowers with talk of our own life experiences or strategies.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)better feminists to shut up about it and be one of the boys?
i take it we are talking about the ironies we have heard in the last couple days.
Last edited Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:51 AM - Edit history (2)
Which women said talking about rape out loud was being a delicate flower?
I guess this didn't happen either. Rape is deadly serious, when you make up shit to argue it, you're the one that's minimizing it.
I'm not sure why you never fail to purposefully twist what someone actually said into something really vile.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=171037
But, I guess once more you were able to demean other women who don't think just like you .... as well as the 'boys', so congrats.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:33 PM - Edit history (1)
women discuss rape?
No answer .... I guess that means it didn't happen. Again.
I'm all for fighting sexism, misogyny and and form of bigotry anywhere, but do we REALLY need to make things up to do it?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this is an interesting perspective. will have to see how this develops.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)That is what I taught my daughter. The moment your judgment is compromised, you could be at the mercy of people who do not have your well-being in mind. You have to be capable of removing yourself from an unsafe situation, including driving, running away, calling a friend or relative, or physically resisting someone.
That's on the one hand.
On the other hand:
Appropriate behavior: boy sees drunk girl at party. He helps her get safely home, calls her a taxi, drives her, walks with her, helps her with her keys, to the couch, gets her shoes off, brings the waste basket, whatever. His level of attraction to her is immaterial.
Inappropriate behavior: boy sees drunk girl at party. He lures her into a room or to his residence, removes her clothes, and has sex with her. He is an opportunistic rapist. There are many, many variations to this scenario, and I will not outline them here; they have been expressed very well by other DUers in other threads over the past few days.
Should the girl *not* get drunk in the first place? Of course not, but it happens with not very surprising frequency. However, that doesn't absolve males from the responsibility *not* to take advantage of a woman's judgmental lapse.
There is responsibility on both sides, but the greater burden should lie with men. To accomplish this, males must reject the cultural norms that promote the idea of women as "easy," "sluts," "asking for it," and the concept that "no means try harder."
As these threads have shown, even males who are otherwise progressive and sensitive to gender issues, can hold bias. The purpose of these threads, as I see it, is to expose that bias and educate.
ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)Being a nurse. Our parking situation is less than optimal. Those who get off work in the dark either take an awkward alternate route through a number of buildings, or call a security pick up provided.
My point? They are ALWAYS afraid. By the logic of the security provided and the nurses's fear, (and plain old asking them) every male IS a potential rapist. This is not 'taught' it is assumed. They go above and beyond to avoid potentially dangerous situations. Most of them don't think every man is a rapist, but women are 'taught' to act as if every male is.
This is reality. As your post points out, there are logical inconsistencies in the responses seen in these 'rape' threads.
As far as I'm concerned, men are more than welcome to get involved in rape prevention programs, including as others have pointed out, noticing and stopping what might be called 'pre-rape' behavior.
It's not hard to get a clue.
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
Men Can Stop Rape seeks to mobilize men to use their strength for creating cultures free from violence, especially men’s violence against women. Men Can Stop Rape is the leading national organization mobilizing boys and young men to prevent all forms of physical and sexual violence, especially violence against women. Since 1997, the organization has reached over 2 million boys and men with a message of “strength without violence.”
Oh, I work surrounded by a large University campus. The fear reaction of women extends much further than my place of work.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)"If you both want it the entire time then it's consensual. If at any point either party is unable to say no or does in fact want the contact to stop, proceeding would constitute rape - there are no exceptions to that rule." I'm not sure what "lesson" or "education" there is beyond that, at least not to those who'll heed its advice.
It's not offensive that some men, particularly students and the younger ones, should have some formal idea of what constitutes rape. It is, however, offensive to the point of bigotry to say that "men" need lessons, as that implies all men need to be told what most already know, and if they don't are almost universally the kind who don't know because they don't want to know - e.g. violators. "Men" are not universally ignorant or poorly educated vis-a-vis rape. Some groups of men might be less educated than others, and they should have means by which to be educated as to what rape is and what it means to stay quiet about it. For those groups it would not only not be offensive but would likely be a very good idea.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)I see a lot of things thrown around here, but not to much on the specifics.
Should we identify them by the section of town they live in?
Color of hair? Color of eyes? Family situation? Mine was pretty crappy, should I be a lecture?
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)that being students
Confusious
(8,317 posts)You started talking about students and children, and then went to men.
Then you started talking about educating groups of men.
Unless you left out a transition somewhere and switched back to talking about students and children, I got the impression you were talking about educating men, and groups of men.
Right here:
'"Men" are not universally ignorant or poorly educated vis-a-vis rape. Some groups of men might be less educated than others, and they should have means by which to be educated as to what rape is and what it means to stay quiet about it. For those groups it would not only not be offensive but would likely be a very good idea.,
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)noamnety
(20,234 posts)on how to stay safe?
Would it be offensive to have a mandatory freshmen orientation which includes, for instance, a statement about protecting your drink at a bar or party? Some women already know that, we aren't universally ignorant.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)saying everyone already knows or doesn't want to is pure unadulterated bullshit designed only to shut down the conversation.
Closed minds foster one thing- ignorance.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)and telling another group how to act to avoid criminals. One assumes ignorance of something the vast majority know, whereas the other does not make that assumption and instead gives people the benefit of the experience of others as to how to best avoid problem areas and behaviors which are far from as obvious as what's enshrined in every state's law.
Of course lessons to men and women should be voluntary given that - as you point out - some of a target group might already have the information in hand. It seems condescending and elitist to presume that everyone needs a lesson on how to not commit a felony given that the vast majority of folks don't, men or women.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)but don't give a lick of consideration that many women have heard the lecture before either.
That's the equality thing you're so find of in action, I guess.... God forbid someone explain something to a man twice, or clarify policy - LOL. That would be fucking awful!
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)I said both college men and women should have the information available to them, but for both groups it should be voluntary. Learn to read, friend. It's truly not that difficult.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)there's no logic or consistency in your arguments. At all.
Because of the nasty * direct personal* insults that are in every post to me, I'm going to ask you nicely to bug off, and stop trailing me. They are a violation, and I'm telling you nicely now to knock it off. Comprehend that.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)I didn't say there's a vast difference between educating men and women. I plainly said there's a vast difference between teaching people how to comport within the law and others on how to avoid becoming victims. Enough lying.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Sorry if you are confused and think you're the only man I ever conversed with on DU. Or that everything is about you.
Seems to be a theme of yours?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)redqueen's excellent OP and thread may give you some good answers to that question.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1905552
boston bean
(36,931 posts)I guess we're all just suppose to be quiet about it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that maybe there was a good reason women should fear him in particular. Very creepy, and purely about his own ego that nothing else mattered. That's never a good sign.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)For example I saw one woman here recently defending bigoted stereotypes of men! Yeah, here on a progressive board! It's crazy, I know.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)or a slur calling all men acquaintances of rapists... depending on which of his very upset posts you choose to believe.
I'm not buying the frat boy marine who never witnessed a single sexist or misogynistic comment or action in his long life.
That shit is funny.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)not really trust what is being said. hence my need for a link of whatever he is accusing some woman about.
yes. this poster has made it clear that he does not want women to think or discuss these issues. and dismisses them at hand.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)and you're acting ... well, rather unbalanced by plastering your disagreement with me ALL OVER DU instead of simply letting it go. You said you thought maybe women should fear me? Jesus, I'm not the one following them around the board with some petty grudge. That for reference would be you, ma'am.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that everything is about you. I posted about an old convo with a different man. I've been here a very long time, silly.
As I said from the beginning, you need to get over yourself.
You're not making any sense at all, arguing one way then the next. Seriously. This is nonsense-Stop the insults, and LEAVE ME ALONE.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)Leave me alone. I'll put you on ignore but don't mention me in other threads and stop chasing my comments down to post your snide insults.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)which is in fact you calling me out, not the other way around. Everyone has the right to respond, right?
The OP said in part "men need to learn" regarding rape. There's no misreading of that. That you're still ignoring it only shows how empty your values are, how hollow your progressivism is.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)without hearing a sexist comment?
Are they completely cut off from all people and have some magic skill where they can post on the internet but can't read it?
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)I said very specifically that I never heard a friend or an acquaintance of mine diminish a woman's humanity as relates to rape and women as sexual objects. That's what I said. I never said I didn't hear anything objectionable in my time. I simply said that in most circles rape jokes aren't made, that admissions of rape aren't common, and that diminishing a woman's humanity isn't a commonplace thing.
Keep lying as I know you will, you've got an unbroken streak of doing so. No point of expecting that to change.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)I haven't claimed that you said anything. I was replying to someone else.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Yeah, me neither.
A day later, he;s now posting his sister was a rape victim. Anything to try and get street cred, this one. Disgusting.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)and then declining to show proof of what you say I said, instead alleging that because I said x that y and z must be true, never pointing out where I said y or z. You're a petty little person who can't handle the fact that you got caught defending bigotry, and you're still attempting to paint the victim of the bigotry as the offender. Amazing stuff, found only on the internet. No one that crazy who vocalizes it in a non-internet area walks outside of an insane asylum.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)One would hope that the side chosen would be done with some moral clarity.
I (as a person of northwestern European ancestry) can easily engage in conversations r/t racial bigotry w/out finding it to be an attack on all people of my ancestry ... and certainly not a personal attack on me. I can and do acknowledge the issues of racism (and I do understand that is very real and unacceptable).
This is a similar issue. Acknowledging issues of sexism and gender inequality requires intelligence, observation and an open mind.
For some of us ... choosing a side in these issues is as easy as determining the difference between right and wrong.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Of course, many men already know this but there are obviously some who do not (Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Julian Assange spring to mind here).
And women need to be taught not to unnecessarily place themselves in risky situations. For example, all women should be well aware that date-rape drugs exist and can be easily dropped into unattended drinks.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)It's good to see that you specified that many men already know how to behave as human beings. We do. But sadly some don't. It's for those people that if there is a hell an especially warm spot is reserved, preferably with the big red guy's poker jabbing him.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Because I do think a lot of men's education should go beyond being informed of the letter of the law. And aside from a few OPs from those with stellar upbringings, many men do not learn this from family or friends. And sadly many women are taught to think (from crap chick flicks) that freakish persistence is only a sign of being super romantic:
"The fourth point: If you fail to respect what women say, you label yourself a problem.
There’s a man with whom I went out on a single date—afternoon coffee, for one hour by the clock—on July 25th. In the two days after the date, he sent me about fifteen e-mails, scolding me for non-responsiveness. I e-mailed him back, saying, “Look, this is a disproportionate response to a single date. You are making me uncomfortable. Do not contact me again.” It is now October 7th. Does he still e-mail?
Yeah. He does. About every two weeks.
(snip.) You see, Mr. E-mail has made it clear that he ignores what I say when he wants something from me. Now, I don’t know if he is an actual rapist, and I sincerely hope he’s not. But he is certainly Schrödinger’s Rapist, and this particular Schrödinger’s Rapist has a probability ratio greater than one in sixty. Because a man who ignores a woman’s NO in a non-sexual setting is more likely to ignore NO in a sexual setting, as well.
So if you speak to a woman who is otherwise occupied, you’re sending a subtle message. It is that your desire to interact trumps her right to be left alone. If you pursue a conversation when she’s tried to cut it off, you send a message. It is that your desire to speak trumps her right to be left alone.And each of those messages indicates that you believe your desires are a legitimate reason to override her rights.
For women, who are watching you very closely to determine how much of a threat you are, this is an important piece of data."
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger’s-rapist-or-a-guy’s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)I've never heard that before, and it's such an apt description.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)the controversial part being it didn't use the word "not all" when referring to men.
If you can get beyond the hair splitting and actually read with an open mind, there's some great food for thought...
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)That no matter what I say or what I do, that ALL men are supposed to feel gender guilt because of the actions of a minority.
I get it.
Enough.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)about men and staying safe.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
thucythucy
(9,103 posts)that?
Please, post some links so we all can see what you're talking about.
And what do you mean "no matter what I say or what I do"?
What do you say, and what do you do?
Do you speak out against rape and sexual violence? Do you contribute funds or time to a rape crisis center? Have you spent significant time trying to end rape and sexual violence?
If so, then obviously you shouldn't feel "gender guilt."
If not, well, maybe a little bit of guilt isn't such a bad thing, after all.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Because I think young men need to know a bit more than just the letter of the law, same as women do.
Too many young girls pick up messed up messages about very persistent, stalkery men being somehow romantic. (From Twighlight to The Shades of Grey series)
I have always found a great way to judge a guy is if he handles a no, or any disagreement without further pushing for a yes, or descending into nastiness. Some guys just can't do it.
"If you fail to respect what women say, you label yourself a problem.
"The fourth point: If you fail to respect what women say, you label yourself a problem.
There’s a man with whom I went out on a single date—afternoon coffee, for one hour by the clock—on July 25th. In the two days after the date, he sent me about fifteen e-mails, scolding me for non-responsiveness. I e-mailed him back, saying, “Look, this is a disproportionate response to a single date. You are making me uncomfortable. Do not contact me again.” It is now October 7th. Does he still e-mail?
Yeah. He does. About every two weeks.
(snip)
You see, Mr. E-mail has made it clear that he ignores what I say when he wants something from me. Now, I don’t know if he is an actual rapist, and I sincerely hope he’s not. But he is certainly Schrödinger’s Rapist, and this particular Schrödinger’s Rapist has a probability ratio greater than one in sixty. Because a man who ignores a woman’s NO in a non-sexual setting is more likely to ignore NO in a sexual setting, as well.
So if you speak to a woman who is otherwise occupied, you’re sending a subtle message. It is that your desire to interact trumps her right to be left alone. If you pursue a conversation when she’s tried to cut it off, you send a message. It is that your desire to speak trumps her right to be left alone.And each of those messages indicates that you believe your desires are a legitimate reason to override her rights.
For women, who are watching you very closely to determine how much of a threat you are, this is an important piece of data."
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger’s-rapist-or-a-guy’s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
peacebird
(14,195 posts)I mean, good grief.... I will be so glad when this is not the topic of the minute.