General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsi know i'm pissing into the wind, even here on du, but i refuse to concede that biden even lost the debate.
the biggest cognitive issue of the night, imho, was donnie insisting that his 10% tariff plan would not lead to price increases.
he's saying that mandating a 10% price increase won't cause a price increase.
if an import used to cost $100, donnie's PLAN is to make it cost $110. he's trying to fight price increases by increasing prices.
stupidest plan ever.
one can pretend that the foreign seller might lower prices to $90.91, such that the 10% tariff (then $9.09) brings it back to $100, but that's pretty much just a theoretical possibility, because it's not even commercially viable if the seller's profit margin is less than 10%.
as a practical matter, most if not all of the cost will be paid by the american buyer (whether that's a direct consumer or an american business, which would then likely pass on the price hike to its own customers.
this is the kind of cognitive issue *that actually matters* when considering someone for the job of president, and this was *donnie's* pathetic little diseased brain in action.
biden had a few moments of cold/tired/jet lag that played into a long-running propaganda narrative, while donnie displayed massive incoherence and stupidity that didn't play into a media narrative because the media is not interested in narratives that don't further the interests of fascism these days.
democrats had reason to be disappointed that biden didn't bring his 'a' game, but *he still won* on the merits.
we, as much as the media, need to stop judging ourselves by the standard of perfection when that standard is irrelevant and certainly doesn't apply in politics when it's *always* a comparison among alternatives.
biden was vastly more knowledgeable, sensible, reasonable, responsive, coherent, and understandable than donnie.
how the hell anyone can claim biden lost is beyond me, and it's politically inexcusable for any democrat to be saying that.
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Easterncedar
(6,267 posts)onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)
BaronChocula
(4,555 posts)On that basis alone he won IMO.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Debates aren';t an exam where the most correct answers wins. They're an effort to convince undecided voters to support you.
B.See
(8,502 posts)an elder gentleman of good intent, and whose administration has done GOOD things for America,
is a better choice than a lying, fascist, pos who promises DICTATORSHIP, the dismantling of democracy, political purges, revenge, and retribution.?
Right. Imo, anyone who' still claims to be undecided about that, ISN'T really undecided.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)On a call just now.
orangecrush
(30,260 posts)
unblock
(56,198 posts)"My candidate's performance was disastrous" is a disastrous thing for a deputy campaign manager (or anyone else on the campaign staff) to say.
I would fire his sorry ass.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)If he had said "all is well, no problems to worry about, its just media bias" that would have been hugely damaging to the campaign.
Also, do you imagine he was just speaking off the cuff, and didn't have talking points approved by the campaign?
unblock
(56,198 posts)Calling it disastrous is inexcusable.
When life serves you lemons, don't serve up a glass of piss and call it lemonade.
thesquanderer
(13,006 posts)unblock
(56,198 posts)a key part of a campaign manager's job is to spin things to advantage for their candidate.
yes, honesty is appreciated among donors and other insiders. but this is public, or at least it is now that we're talking about it on du.
it is a disaster for a key part of the campaign to call the debate "disastrous" even if some people think it was.
maybe there's a more refined description, it's not my job to figure out the magic phrase to describe a disappointing performance while still pumping up the candidate and the campaign, it's the job of the person who went with "disastrous". i'm not saying i have the magic phrase, i'm just saying "disastrous" ain't it.
if i were on the campaign, i'd be attacking donnie's tariff idiocy and other lies and ranting and non-responsiveness and his violent, hate-filled, fascist rhetoric, ideas and plans, i'd be attacking his glitches and criminality and HIS utter lack of fitness for office.
i'd be pointing out the points Joe DID score, i'd be encouraging people to read the transcript. i'd be minimizing the criticism loudly and publicly.
*with that as backdrop* i'd have more candid discussions in *private*, not to where it gets leaked to the public, via du or otherwise. if i ever thought i needed to tell a donor the performance was "disastrous", i'd caution anyone within earshot to not go public with this description.
personally, i can't say biden's debate performance was disastrous, i don't believe that at all.
but the campaign's handling of the post-debate crap certainly *has* been disastrous.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)The response is to point at the scoreboard and a reminder that the game isn't played on paper.
I've been following races for decades and this is the only time I can recall any real discussion about reading the transcript in place of the performance on the stage.
The transcript is not the format for the contest and is never going to catch up to 50 million viewers and tens of millions more online.
unblock
(56,198 posts)I saw the debate. I understand he hesitated once or twice. I understand his voice was not as powerful.
I also understand I'm autistic and don't process information the same way as others, but I'm not clueless about it. I get that people were disappointed in biden's showing.
But lost? Wtaf? Biden was imperfect, but scored many hits and answered cogently and sensibly while Donnie was his usual stupidest hitler ever.
Why oh why are people turning a few moments of less than perfect optics into a disaster? This handwringing is vastly more of a disaster than the few moments of imperfection.
thesquanderer
(13,006 posts)People responded to what they saw and heard, not to the transcript.
Calling it disastrous may be an opinion, but not a lie.
How appropriate it was for someone associated with the campaign to say it would also depend in part on who it was he was addressing.
There are times when "I feel your pain" can be better than trying to minimize the issue.
unblock
(56,198 posts)Or even say I hear that you think it was disastrous.
But a campaign manager should never say that *they* think it was disastrous, certainly not where it might become publicly attributable to a key person on the campaign. In private, in strict confidence, fine. And the candidate certainly need to hear the tough feedback. But to go public with that sort of thing is a cardinal sin of campaign management.
Eliot Rosewater
(34,285 posts)the stuff he was trying to remember, stats, and all the trips he made before the debate.
They did not handle this well UNLESS they all said NO stats dont matter and you have to slow down and he refused, which I doubt entirely.
beaglelover
(4,466 posts)beaglelover
(4,466 posts)58Sunliner
(6,330 posts)
LonePirate
(14,367 posts)Fairly or unfairly, Biden is being judged on style, not substance.
h2ebits
(1,002 posts)Where is the transcript?? Why are we not producing it to declare Biden the winner of the debate?
Joe Biden is a true statesman and ranks in the top echelon of US Presidents. He has accomplished so many good things in his presidency.
I guess I just don't have thick enough skin. It breaks my heart to see him being abused in this manner and it truly is abuse.
The United States is in a dark place right now.
thesquanderer
(13,006 posts)
live love laugh
(16,383 posts)
marble falls
(71,926 posts)
MerrilyMerrily
(230 posts)I was sad Biden sometimes seemed to be at a loss (not lost) when confronted with the Gish Gallop of Garbage. But anybody would be! Of course I was hoping he would find a way to stop the pigeon from scattering the pieces and crapping all over the board, but man, you'd have to be a superhero with a freeze ray.
Joe did better than Rubio, Jeb, Christie, Graham, et al EVER did in those appalling 2016 primary debates, but he couldn't singlehandedly stop the poop coming out like a firehose (literally and figuratively) ten feet away. He could and did show that he was capable of listening to the questions, understanding the questions, and giving answers to the questions - even when run down and under the weather. His opponent showed he was a liar with no intention of even trying. IMO, undecideds are just as likely to have noticed that as I was.
marble falls
(71,926 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 12, 2024, 09:00 AM - Edit history (1)
... Joe Biden or Mango jebus. There aren't any undecideds. The dog and pony show was a blip.
ImNotGod
(1,194 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 11, 2024, 02:23 PM - Edit history (1)
GoCubsGo
(34,914 posts)Which is why those who listened to the debate on the radio, or via Univision translators, or read the transcripts all say that Joe won. And, the ones who heard his raspy voice were sent into a tither.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld: "you go to the election with the voters you have, not the voters you might wish to have"
NoveltySocks
(415 posts)Trump was just spewing lies that didn't relate to the questions.
pfitz59
(12,704 posts)There was no 'debate'. Biden tried, but the moderators let Trump rant unchallenged.
All a person has to do is to read the transcript.
K & R
kimbutgar
(27,248 posts)And drink a bottle of champagne that morning!
orangecrush
(30,260 posts)I the midst of a vicious propaganda assault.
I never realized what a tight grip the oligarchs have an the medias balls until now.
bucolic_frolic
(55,139 posts)I've not gained much traction on this line of reasoning, but here me out because I've lived it, studied it. Con men abuse people mentally. The easiest on road to controlling the minds of the public is to abuse logic. What you see, what you hear, is not true. It's illogical. A $10, 10% price increase that doesn't increase prices is right before your eyes! Presto! You're hooked. You no longer believe your mind, you believe the lies of the con man.
Once logic is gone, you're in an emotional state. Now you can made to believe total BS. Emotionally. You can be taught to hate libs, to be paranoid over brown people, to believe a Nazi is not a Nazi. You are fed the bait.
jmbar2
(7,989 posts)- He did not answer the questions. He mowed over them to launch nonsensical gishgallops of lies
- His logic was incoherent
- His style was abusive and belittling.
What he did do is exert dominance over Biden and the moderators. And to some people that is "winning".
David Pepper says a better way to frame it is that Trump is running against your freedoms. Everything he and Heritage advocate for takes away the freedoms of others.
https://davidpepper.substack.com/p/comeback-a-needed-pep-talk
That's not winning in my book .
Bitbit
(145 posts)
lees1975
(7,046 posts)then Biden won hands down.
LetMyPeopleVote
(179,868 posts)The content of President Biden's responses was accurate and actually made great points.
Link to tweet
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4745771-biden-lacked-oomph-but-the-transcript-tells-a-different-tale/
But, reading the cold transcript, we get a very different picture of Biden. Substantively, he ably and forcefully made the case that that Trump should not be allowed back in the Oval Office.
While the timbre of Biden’s voice was soft, and he occasionally lost his train of thought, he struck some hard and telling blows. Let’s review the transcript.
On his age: “I spent half my career being criticized being the youngest person in politics. I was the second-youngest person ever elected to the United States Senate. And now I’m the oldest. This guy’s three years younger and a lot less competent. I think that just look at the record. Look what I’ve done. Look how I’ve turned around the horrible situation he left me.”
On Trump’s character: Trump is legally and morally compromised. He is a convicted felon, and had sex with an adult movie actress while his wife was pregnant. He accosted E. Jean Carroll in a department store dressing room. It is no answer that Hunter Biden is also a convicted felon. Hunter Biden is not running for president.
On Trump’s place in history: Historians rate Trump the worst president in our 230-year history.
On NATO: Trump wants to get out of NATO. “You’re going to stay in NATO or you’re going to pull out of NATO?” “Our strength lies in our alliances.”......
It was Trump who demonstrably lied in the debate, lied with the utmost self-assurance, evaded questioning with irresponsive answers bristling with alternative facts and lame denials. Biden was on message. I only wish he had had more oomph.
My bottom line: Disaster may not be irretrievable. To put it starkly, here’s the deal: Vote for a convicted felon trying to lie his way back into power or vote for someone who has proven he can get the job done. I make no excuses for Biden, but as Adelaide lamented in “Guys and Dolls,” “A person can develop a bad, bad cold.”
elleng
(141,926 posts)
suegeo
(3,137 posts)His (Biden's) soft voice and bumbling manner played right into the MAGA narrative that he is past his use-by date.
When did the MAGA narrative start? Who started it?
What's Mike Flynn been up to?
Who amplified that narrative? Russian bot farms, months ago?
The GOP is still colluding with Putin.
Biden got shit done, showing he is not part his use-by date.
kentuck
(115,406 posts)Not to get in a tit-for-tat with Trump. Let him look foolish. Continue to be "presidential".
Do not respond to his lies and name-calling. Focus on your accomplishments.
I think that type of advice may have caused him to freeze up. There was no back-up strategy.
BlueTsunami2018
(4,989 posts)He just looked and sounded terrible while delivering the truth.
elleng
(141,926 posts)as confirmed by those who have actually read the transcript, he actually ANSWERED questions.
See # 19.
Response to unblock (Original post)
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SCantiGOP
(14,719 posts)even a majority of Democrats, say that he lost the debate and lost it badly.
Let's leave the unsubstantiated deflections and denials to the other side.
thenelm1
(912 posts)SCantiGOP
(14,719 posts)Everybody saw it as it happened. Denial doesn’t change fact.
JustAnotherGen
(38,054 posts)It's 10% in addition to ad valorem and potentially 301 Tariffs (China Tariffs outside of the Trade Community) -
So - you could have an Iron Casting which in 2017 was $100 @ 3.9%. With 301 Tariffs - now at 28.9%. With across the board - @ 10%. So now 38.9%.
Iron Castings are not mass consumer.
They are used by United States Manufacturers who hire Americans to work and build our economy.
Now - lets talk about how US Manufacturers won't be able to compete and we end up in an extremely dire financial situation.
Metaphorical
(2,634 posts)Biden won the debate, if you judge the debate solely on the merits of the transcript. He had a clear command of the facts, he made cogent arguments, he supported everything that he said. Bravo, a debate judge would have given him a 9/10.
This doesn't matter in the least.
Trump understands this instinctively. Trump is a salesman. Salesmen are highly extroverted, they usually are not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but they understand that so long as what they say is said in a convincing manner intended to excite or entertain (especially when directed to an audience), whether what they say has any relationship to the truth is irrelevant.
Biden is four years older than Trump. That usually makes no difference if you're in your 20s to your 60s, but once you get to your 80s, that four years of difference translates into different manifestations. Biden is, even given age differences, healthier than Trump, and I have no real doubt that Trump is facing the same cognitive issues that Fred Trump faced, but Biden is also naturally soft-spoken, likely does have less energy than he did even four years ago, and is facing natural physiological declines - stooped shoulders, trouble keeping weight on as muscle mass declines, and even the normal cognitive decline that comes from having an older brain, albeit a very healthy one. Trump will (assuming he lives that long, which I rather doubt) face the same issues four years from now.
Moreover, the media was primed to capitalize on this difference from the outset, and I do not believe that many of the technical issues that plagued Biden during the debate were accidental. If Biden had appeared more vital, the media would still have made the case that he's too old. I remember when John Dean made his infamous roar during was so insignificant (I worked for his campaign). The media was in the tank for Bush II at that point (January 2004), and the whisper campaign began almost immediately thereafter, that it was a sign that he was crazy, he couldn't be trusted, and so forth. It was enough to derail his campaign. The narrative was already set, and all it took was one stumble to enact it.
I think that Biden will get the nomination, though it will be tougher than before. I think people are beginning to wake up to the manipulation and dirty tricks, and I think that the September sentencing of Trump is going to be a big part of it. Still, if this didn't serve to highlight how desperate the stakes were before, the debate crystallized them.
ananda
(35,145 posts)All the way with Biden/Harris!
I thought all this would blow over but remain surprised every morning by all of it.
duncang
(3,767 posts)Tfg really didn’t answer the questions, babbled on about what he wanted to say, and continually lied. So yeah, to me a fair person should see tfg lost the debate.
Biden had an off day. TFG’s day was just the normalized lying bullshit he does every day. I can’t remember how many outright lies and how many half lies he told during it. But somehow that doesn’t count in the media’s eyes. To them it’s not news. In a way it isn’t new news. He’s been a lying self serving idiot from day one. So it’s not headline material.
Bev54
(13,431 posts)If you read the transcripts, he did pretty well, couple of slips but compared to Trump he most definitely won.
markbark
(1,631 posts)"he's trying to fight price increases by increasing prices."
It's been going on for decades -- remember when St. Ronnie insisted (with a straight face no less) that cutting taxes would increase revenue?
Raven123
(7,797 posts)
LisaL
(47,423 posts)And how can you lose if you tell the truth, but your opponent just lies?
Rocknation
(45,006 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 11, 2024, 03:47 PM - Edit history (1)
Biden didn't win because he lacked dynamism, DuhDonald didn't win because he lied every thirty seconds. But neither of them lost, either: CNN did because they didn't allow for fact checking.
If both candidates can be blamed for agreeing to debate without fact checking, CNN deserves blame for expecting them do do it.
Rocknation
thesquanderer
(13,006 posts)I think many of those who are panicking aren't saying he lost the debate... but they're not saying he won it, either.
As was heard constantly that night, it was a "missed opportunity." And in what always seemed to be a tight race, it was a rough opportunity to squander.
Warpy
(114,615 posts)and Biden is the only one who answered any of the questions.
TFG just blustered, lied and confabulated.
People out in TV land got that.
The media just tried to do a hatchet job. They didn't succeed. Biden's poll numbers didn't dive. The only people who listened to the pundit crowd are a few chickenshit Congressmen who didn't like Biden, anyway.
StarryNite
(12,116 posts)
ms liberty
(11,237 posts)The adjudicated rapist and convicted felon's administration when he put tariffs on imported gods.. i did the job for over 15 years.
WE, the importer of record, paid those tariffs because when the container hits the water overseas, the buyer is invouced and a deposit must be paid or the shipment has to be paid in full before it lands in a US port.
And because we owned those goods when they landed, we later got the bill from the US Teeadury for the tariffs.
I wrote the checks. I know.
obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)Joe had issues, but he actually debated. Well, as much as you can with Mr Gish Galloping Trump.
Evolve Dammit
(21,777 posts)
Turbineguy
(40,074 posts)
markodochartaigh
(5,545 posts)and the most accurate facts, President Biden clearly won. If you value substance over style, President Biden won. If you value style over substance and can't handle living in the real world of facts, maybe you think Trump won. Can the US handle the truth? Find out in November!
ArkansasDemocrat1
(3,213 posts)I live in a red state. I just want to be able to say I voted for Biden.
Sick of the human howler monkeys, and I used to live near actual howler monkeys and heard them every day. Much more intelligent.
Jean Genie
(544 posts)Convicted Sexual Predator Donald Trump is blameless, don't you know? Blameless! He's Never done anything wrong. He knows NOTHING about his hirelings, cronies, lackeys, and chums who bloviate endlessly about his innocence and persecution. He's the most perfect human being ever - Chosen by god. He is the smartest, most handsome, virile, learned, brilliant, adorable, desirable, and, sadly, most maligned little bunny rabbit to ever be attacked by the mean old Democrats.
Kaleva
(40,365 posts)In reality, they are beauty pageants where style and presentation beats out substance
LostOne4Ever
(9,752 posts)But we don't really have "debates" but rather large PR events and Trump won on Visuals. That is all that matters to the press/media.
By which I mean, debates are two people making arguments for or against a position. Trump lied constantly and refused to answer questions. Biden did answer and answered truthfull. So technically, Biden won the debate.
However, what the news calls a debate is really just a PR contest/event to show who looks the more appealing and Trump won that because Biden was feeling bad that day and looked like it. Biden or his handlers should never have let him on stage that night.
Lemon Lyman
(1,594 posts)Doesn't matter what a candidate says It only matters how s/he looks, apparently. I understand that optics matter. But what about substance? What about truth? Facts?
SMH at some of our side. You never see dissension on the reich. The don't start from a position of weakness. It's not:
"Our health care plan isn't perfect, but...."
"So the president had a bad debate."
Everything the reich does is perfect. They're all in behind their candidates all the time.
Why does our side fumble stuff like this? Instead of, "The President had a bad night, but..." Just do what the other side would do. Brag on President Biden's accomplishments. Hammer the reich for their awful plans. Hammer numnuts for his terrible ideas, chaos, & idiocy.
Yeah, the media sucks. But our message people and some of our voters need to step up too.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)He did win the debate. Don't believe the corporate hype like so many sunshine Dems of Congress do.
citizen blues
(608 posts)Why isn't anyone but a select few bringing up Trump's mental state. Trump's brain is mush! All you have to do is listen to one of his word-salad rallies to clearly see the difference!
I'm so angry over Biden being asked to step aside. And half of the Senators and House members that are doing so are 75+ years old themselves! How about calling on them to lead by example!
A lot of the job of president is to put the right people in the right places around you. With his decades of Washington experience, Biden has done that! And he's done it exceptionally well!
Finally, Alan Lichtman's "The Keys to the White House," has been a more accurate predictor than any others over the last 40 years. It's simple: losing Biden means losing 2 keys that we must have to win.
Staph
(6,467 posts)I had a meeting that evening. I was bumfuzzled to hear all the commentators talking about how horrible Biden was.
I could tell he had a cold, but he was coherent, concise and substantive. My only disappointment was with his closing statement. It was rather blah, where it should have been inspiring. I just assumed that the cold had tired him.
Hikerchick57
(177 posts)Riding with Biden!
BlueGreenLady
(2,887 posts)czarjak
(13,639 posts)LilyBelle
(60 posts)And I'm not going for a "mystery meat" candidate like voters don't matter. If Biden became infirm, Harris takes over. It's simple to me since that's what the Veep is for.
I believe Biden is the safer GE candidate because of name recognition, he is a successful incumbent, and the media that hates him, does Kamala even dirtier.
I hate them and have stopped watching.
Clooney is this years Sarandon imo. He got into a snit because Biden wouldn't do what he wants like some Hollywood A hole.
flashman13
(2,403 posts)You are missing the point. The list of reasons why Trump is unqualified to be president is endless. It doesn't matter. Right now, this minute, the whole election is all about President Biden and will remain so until Biden and the campaign makes it all about Trump. Trump should not be able to look up without seeing rolling advertisements bashing him and baby Trump balloons everywhere. Make him crazier than usual.
So far the campaign has thrown exactly one punch since the debate.
A dozen of these ads attacking Trump head on every day for the next 116 days is what it will take to make it about Trump. Use The Lincoln Project template. Biden needs to do well in his NATO press conference (pressers several times a week would be good) and then before the night is over he can stick that in Trump's face. Democrats need to quit trying to be polite and go to all out war mode.
Attack! Attack! Attack!
valleyrogue
(2,715 posts)
Martin Eden
(15,628 posts)And the Biden campaign would be in better shape if it never happened.
kerry-is-my-prez
(10,283 posts)There were no winners.
blm
(114,658 posts)Emile
(42,289 posts)still believe he won. Trump never answered one question, he just rambled on speaking lies until he ate up the clock. Joe answered every question!
Skittles
(171,710 posts)enough with the fucking excuses
Biden should have been able to EASILY wipe the floor with Donald Fucking Trump.....it DIDN'T HAPPEN
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)He was kind of low-key, not super energetic, but didn't make any big flubs that I remember. I could never figure out why people were so down on him for that.
Saoirse9
(3,954 posts)The other guy lied every time he opened his mouth. That should have been the story, period,
roamer65
(37,953 posts)So in my book, Biden won by default.
GoodRaisin
(10,922 posts)Joe answered a lot of the questions, Trump not a single one that I can recall.
Hermit-The-Prog
(36,631 posts)Biden won the debate.
Niagara
(11,850 posts)
wryter2000
(47,940 posts)Trump did not win the debate. No one but his idiotic MAGAts believed his lies.