Hw many of you had as your first, or nearly first thought, "Reichstag Fire" last night?

[Jilly_in_VA]

Be honest. And how many of you younger DUers know what "Reichstag Fire" means, or what it was?

[CousinIT]

1. YES. Immediately. n/t

[Bobstandard]

34. Me too!

I got a phone call with the news, turned to my wife and said, “looks like our Reichatag moment is here.” Then I told her what happened and had to explain all about the Reichstag fire.

You know that if this happened with Trump in the White House he’d declare a state of emergency immediately. Then he’d start rounding up suspects’.

[kimbutgar]

2. Yeah I did for a split second but didn't want to feel conspiratorial unless I learned the facts

[Metaphorical]

3. Me

Trump loves the classics. There are times that I keep expecting to grow a Hitleresque mustache.

[viva la]

4. I said it out loud.

With Trump, I am always led to suspect the most nefarious.

[rsdsharp]

5. Initially, yes, before I knew of the other casualties.

The fact of the matter is that someone was shooting real bullets, which don’t always hit their intended target, for any number of reasons, and Trump was in the target area when it happened. Trump is not constitutionally (no pun intended) capable of willingly putting his ass in any kind of danger, no matter how slight.

[sop]

11. Trump wouldn't be part of a Reichstag Fire plot, but I could see sinister forces within the GOP involved in it.

Trump had better start looking over his shoulder.

[Jilly_in_VA]

17. Kid was not a good shot

That's a fact. He just thought he was and maybe so did whoever plotted this. Other casualties are just "incidental" to them, after all.

[rsdsharp]

32. Hitler wasn't in the Reichstag when they set it on fire.

Trump was standing in the target area when the shots were fired by a kid with an AR without optics. Trump’s not very bright, and he’s as dishonest as anyone I’ve ever seen, but he’s a coward. Even a good shot with a very accurate rifle and great optics can miss, or a bullet be deflected, and hit something, or someone he didn’t intend to hit.

[GiqueCee]

48. Well, he got pretty damned close...

... 150 yards without a proper bench rest isn't too bad. The AR-15 is chambered for the .223 round. Roughly speaking, a LONG .22 slug with a shitload of powder behind it that is designed to tumble when it makes contact, causing maximum damage.

[B.See]

53. Just heard a news report moments ago that revealed

the shooter was once kicked out of a gun club for being a bad shot.

File under, things that make you go hmmmm

[Scruffy1]

123. That could have been an excuse for someone who is not socially accepted,

If they were in competition maybe low scores. Besides one hundred fifty yards is close to the standard sighting for on hundred yards.

[Orrex]

110. He was a fucking amazing shot

Assuming that, you know, he actually managed to nick Trump's ear so very slightly.

[Jilly_in_VA]

116. Still not absolutely sure that was a gunshot wound

although the Slobfather will claim to the end of his days that it was. If it was, it was accidental. The kid was kicked out of a firing range for being such a bad shot, and didn't even make the cut for his high school rifle club.

[Orrex]

117. I've seen it asserted on DU that the bullet is visible in a photo after hitting shithead's ear

But I've also heard that it was glass from the teleprompter.

[krkaufman]

61. "Other"

*Other* people being hurt or killed isn’t a metric I’d consider as being listed in the “CON’s” column by Trump or anyone associated with his campaign.

I’m also curious how a bullet fired from an AR-15 wouldn’t rip off an ear.

[rsdsharp]

74. Perhaps not, but putting Trump in the target zone would not be a wise, or safe, decision

Your question is why wouldn’t an intermediate powered round that nicked an ear not tear it off? Those stories of an .223 being able to turn a cow inside out are, how shall I put this — overstated.

[Orrex]

118. Right? That's some Crocodile Dundee-level marksmanship.

[Jilly_in_VA]

6. I still think it was

and will continue to believe so until or unless proven otherwise. It's just too freaking convenient.

[wnylib]

24. The word Reichstag never crossed my mind

because I see no parallels. Hitler was already in office when the fire occurred. He used it to consolidate power against political opponents.

Trump is only running for office, not in office yet. He has no power right now to arrest his opponents en masse.

But that does not mean that I have written off the possibility that the shooting could have been arranged. I am not saying that it was, only that it could have been because it is in keeping with Trump's style of playing heroic victim. It also fits his willingness to go to any absurd lengths to win. He gains a lot from this attempt. It changes the narrative of the reality that he is a promoter if violence. It draws attention away from Project 2025 and the Epstein papers. It draws attention away from Biden's strong comeback.

I think it is possible that the shooter was hired to "do some shooting" at the rally. Trump's puppet masters could arrange something like that without ever telling Trump in advance. Or, Trump could have been aware of a shooting plan carried out by one of his own, a registered Republican.

Not saying that it did happen that way, only that it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

[maynard]

38. No more talk about Project 2025

[GoreWon2000]

51. The Biden-Harris campaign will make a big issue out of Project 2025

It's also everyone's job to get the word out about Project 2025 and the dictatorship our country will become if tRump gets back into the White House.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

45. It is foolish to transpose speculation into belief without facts. There are NO facts pointing to a conspiracy

There is only idle speculation and unfounded conjecture and a lot of open questions.

The fact that a cop climbed up the ladder to the roof and retreated when threatened with a gun is almost as odd as the roof being available to the shooter.

If you are going to assert anything more than incompetence in securing obvious points outside of the security perimeter, then you have to provide some shred of evidence. Evidence of incompetence is not automatically evidence of malice.

To believe in a conspiracy without specific evidence of conspirators and conspiratorial transactions / communications, then it is to believe in unicorns and kraken.

[niyad]

57. The OP asked what our immediate first thoughts were, before any facts

were known, so your scolding is unnecessary.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

65. I wasn't scolding the OP for that (their OP). I was scolding post #6 which clings to a fact-free myth after time passed

Post 6 states a factless belief that has been converted from simple conjecture and then demands that everybody else prove a negative.

Better to keep a skeptical open mind but based on facts that exclude some avenues while open questions don't yet close other avenues of conjecture. But conjecture must remain conjecture when facts don't pertain, which is my point of post #45, my reply.

My post #39 was not scolding the OP, but rather it was approving of DU members who withhold posting on wild conjecture until facts start coming in.

[niyad]

70. . . . .

[Bernardo de La Paz]

73. . . . .

[rsdsharp]

93. That a cop retreated when he saw a man with a rifle is not odd.

Law enforcement is trained that nothing is more important than officer safety.

[poozwah]

7. yep

certainly did. the maga movement has been using the nazi playbook since it began.

[BlueYonder]

8. I didn't immediately think about this

when I first heard about it.

It was, however, one of my first thoughts when I actually saw the footage of what took place. How slowly Trump was removed from the scene (why did the Secret Service just assume there were no more shooters waiting to open fire?) and Trump being allowed to perform for the crowd like he did. First time I saw the footage, something just felt strange about it all.

It still does.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

42. Removed slowly bc tRump resisted SS so he could get his fist bump photo op. 3 times to ensure it

Secret Service did NOT assume only one shooter. That's why they swarmed to cover him from all sides, all angles.

[GiqueCee]

59. AND...

... the fuckin' idiot was screaming about his goddam shoes! Why were his shoes off in the first place? What an imbecile. Everything's about ratings with him. What a relief it will be when he's planted in the rough next to Ivana.
And why were those SS agents grinning at the camera in one shot? Someone suggested that they were laughing at a joke he made. Trump has no sense of humor, and NEVER made a joke unless it was at someone else's expense.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

66. We also have the evidence from Jan 6 that tRump will fight agents protecting him in the SUV. . . .nt

[crickets]

95. The smiling version of that photo is photoshopped.

I did an angry doubletake too when I saw it. They aren't smiling in the real photo.

tfg wears lifts, likely putting his feet so high in the shoes that they easily came off as he was being pressed to the ground by Secret Service. He might have been worried about the lifts falling out for everyone to see. 😏

[GiqueCee]

96. SERIOUSLY?!!?

How pitifully vain can you be and still qualify for Leader of the Free World? We are SO[/i fucked.

[BlueYonder]

121. It took the Secret Service

almost two minutes to get Trump to his vehicle after the shots were fired. That is definitely not protocol and I don't care what anyone tries to claim. They were even slow in moving the motorcade out.

If the Secret Service wanted Trump out of there quickly, they would have gotten him out of there quickly. You don't "resist" the Secret Service when they are moving you out of a dangerous situation.

[SocialDemocrat61]

9. No I was thinking Operation Valkyrie

on July 20, 1944. Almost 80 years ago to the day.

[unblock]

10. When I saw the pic with the two streaks of blood on his face, I immediately thought of "the sting"

Robert Redford with similar streaks of blood.

[krkaufman]

56. Bullet from an AR-15 hits his ear

If there’s anything left of the top of his ear, I’ll remain suspicious.

[TommyT139]

63. He's lying

It was a glass shard, per a named reporter who spoke to a Secret Service agent. To me, that explains the absence of any SS involvement in pressers, and helps explain why Trump's campaign threatened "termination" for anyone who spoke with press. As usual, Trump is lying.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219148847#post57

[brush]

103. NO. Teleprompters, all intact afterwards btw, where IN FRONT of the podium.

Who ever started that misinformation needs to retract it. A bullet grazed trump's ear, kept going intto the audience and struck a man in the head squarely, not a graze, and killed him.

[DFW]

107. So far, it appears you are correct about this. I was in error in my earlier post about this.

My apologies!

[TommyT139]

120. Await the investigation

I'll wait to hear testimony from the Secret Service agent who said that to the reporter. Joe Biden has said he'd release that info.

The medical report would help too -- but we all know that Trump hates to admit any basic facts about his body.

[Traurigkeit]

69. cut himself on the floor. fat head crushed ear tip on foor

[Bernardo de La Paz]

77. No. Vid/pic evidence contradicts your allegation. It was bleeding before he was taken down. . . . . nt

[Traurigkeit]

71. cut ear on floor. fat head crushed ear tip when it hit floor

[Bernardo de La Paz]

78. No. Vid/pic evidence contradicts your allegation. . . . nt

[Traurigkeit]

80. Lump fell to floor

[Bernardo de La Paz]

83. He didn't fall. He ducked after touching his injured ear. Please don't make stuff up. . . . . nt

[Traurigkeit]

86. that fat lump didn't fall to floor ?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

89. The fat lump did not fall to the floor. The video is clear about that. . . . . nt

[Traurigkeit]

90. dont do MSM since 2000. catch "news" from places

disappointed with end result

[Bernardo de La Paz]

91. If the video is from a smart phone but is clear and uninterrupted, use that

Golly, there is video out there.

Or use RSBN or RAV or ONAN or lots of others that are not MSM even if they are reich wing -- as long as the video is clear and uninterrupted.

Personally, I do not have a TV but will watch clips when necessary, as in this case to refute the nonsensical claims.

[unblock]

12. While I immediately considered this among many explanations,

I quickly dismissed the false flag theories.

Among other tells, if they were going to do a false flag like this, they would have saved it for a few days before the election, same way they saved the Weiner laptop duplicate email nonsense for just before the election.

[Jilly_in_VA]

18. Nah

Right before the coronation...er, convention...that's close enough for them.

[unblock]

25. this will fade. four months is a long time.

unless they try to stage a repeat a few days before the election.

[MOMFUDSKI]

30. He may be worried about a rift at the

Convention. There may be some with other plans for the nomination

[bucolic_frolic]

13. Yes.

And it's not ruled out yet.

[debm55]

14. I agree with you Jilly_in_VA, I can't get that screaming toothless maga out of headgiving the finger and screaming FY

[Marthe48]

15. I looked for assassination attempts on hitler before he ruled Gremany

Since traitor's playbook seems to mimic one fascist's rise to power, makes sense to check history. Refresh my memory.

[ucralum]

16. Spent yesterday in Berlin...

…then saw the news in the middle of the night, so yep, that was where my mind immediately went.

[Fiendish Thingy]

19. I don't see the comparison

It certainly wasn’t staged, but the aftermath has definitely been politicized.

Doesn’t mean the comparison fits.

[ecstatic]

21. My first thought was fake or staged.

And then I immediately wondered how this would affect the 13 keys to the White House.

[gopiscrap]

22. Me immediately and I still do

[Bernardo de La Paz]

40. What? You think tRump put himself in sights of 20 yo w rifle who promised to just nick him?

[NoveltySocks]

23. That was my first thought.

And yep, I know what it was and what it means.

[Blue Owl]

26. Everything he does is always about his stupid "optics"

And his past would lend itself to suspicion about the lengths he’d go with his ‘theatrics’….

[oldsoftie]

27. ZERO thought.

[Ocelot II]

28. Nope.

Occam's Razor. So far it's turning out to be pretty much what I thought it might be: Young white guy, sorry loner with an assault weapon, wanted to be famous for something.

[GenThePerservering]

29. Not all youth is stupid and uneducated

You were doing fine until that snippy remark.

[brush]

104. That one was though. And sure seems to me he was set up, and IMO the...

Secret Service if complicit as somehow let a 20-year-old get a high vantage point of the podium with a clear sight line to the speaker, and then their smiper took him out immediately after he shot at trump.

No ID on the body but the sure IDed him fast somehow.

Very suspicious.

[Vogon_Glory]

31. Neither. I thought of Fanny Kaplan and Squeaky Fromme

Last edited Mon Jul 15, 2024, 06:01 AM - Edit history (1)

Would-be assassins who used firearms and failed.

For those who don’t know of Fanny Kaplan, she was a left-wing Russian revolutionary who tried and failed to assassinate VI Lenin in 1918.

[no_hypocrisy]

62. And Sara Jane Moore. Tried to assassinate Gerald Ford.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Jane_Moore

[Xolodno]

33. Not at all.

Trump has pissed off so many people, not just politically, but financially, sexually, etc. I'm more surprised it hasn't happened sooner.

[onethatcares]

35. why limit to "younger DUers"?

asking for a friend

[ChicagoRonin]

36. I thought of "Bob Roberts"

1992 political satire written and directed by and starring Tim Robbins as a repellant Republican Senate candidate.

Suffers an attempted assassination (that appears faked) and cruises to election victory.

[gibraltar72]

37. Count me in.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

39. That's why smart DU members don't go off half-cocked and post half-baked speculation right after an event. . . . nt

[dobleremolque]

41. I'm chagrined by my first reaction and

probably should keep it to myself, but since you asked... It was: "Why do these Em-effers who keep calling for Civil War 2.0 think they'll be the ones to fire the first shots?"
I mean like they just expect us to mill around helplessly until they get sighted in and calibrated??
Ashamed but honest answer here...
(And yeah I understand the Reichstag analogy.)

[chowder66]

43. Nope. We have plenty of daily examples of how this happens.

[Kaleva]

44. What news was reported that suggested that could have been a possibility?

[CitizenZero]

46. Yep

First thing that I thought. Regardless, Trump and his MAGA Fascists will use this as an excuse to militarize Law Enforcement and establish a Police State. If Trump gets re-elected we will be living under a Dictator and a MAGA Fascist Regime. We need a Resistance! We need a Counter Operation.

[niyad]

47. Me. And most of my friends out here in the physical world. We are old and VERY

cynical.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

75. Cynicism is not a replacement for facts. . . . . nt

[niyad]

81. Once again, dear heart, the OP's question was, what was our FIRST thought when

we FIRST heard about it. FIRST THOUGHT. Your apparent determination to scold and chastise us for things we did not say is somewhat puzzling.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

84. Once again, dear heart, my reply was not to the OP. In this case it was to you and your post

The tree structure of the thread makes that clear.

[niyad]

87. Your responses are more interesting and amusing by the minute.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

88. This is good. . . . nt

[Wicked Blue]

49. Me!

[AntiFascist]

50. Here's the latest gossip I've heard from the internets...

Last edited Sun Jul 14, 2024, 09:20 PM - Edit history (1)

"The Secret Service sniper who shot the gunman had his rifle trained on the shooter for a while BEFORE the shots were fired (according to a post he made on 4chan?) but was never given the go-ahead to kill him until after the initial shots."

I don't know how true this is, but perhaps it is why Biden is calling for an independent investigation. One conspiracy theory is that high-level Republicans convinced Crooks (a gun fetishist, registered Republican) to take out the orange menace.

I don't necessarily believe any of these conspiracy theories myself, I'm just putting it out there.

On edit: watching the latest news on NBC, the counter-snipers (stationed on the top of buildings) who took out the gunman may have been local police? The Secret Service is stretched thin having to prepare for the Republican Convention in Milwaukee and they often rely on local police to cover areas outside of their designated perimeter.

[bucolic_frolic]

60. Others think him a patsy delivering sympathy event.

It sure is a strange thing to do even for an abused 20 year old with his hobbies. And HOW did this unstable character have the ingenuity to find a hole in the security blanket? It is pretty unbelievable. He almost had to have help. That's why I think they should explore the staged angle. It's just too slick by half.

[Kaleva]

52. For that to work, wouldn't tfg have to be President?

The Reichstag fire took place 4 weeks after Hitler was sworn in

[obamanut2012]

54. Immediately

[Kali]

55. my first thought went to

lack of skills. sorry not sorry.

[virgdem]

58. I did, almost immediately.

I'm a history buff.

[TexLaProgressive]

64. Not me

I am not prone to jumping to conclusions.When ever stuff like this happens there is a blizzard of misinformation doing its best to cover the facts.

The fact that tRump was hit, even though minor, is enough for me to discount any thoughts of a wag the dog scenario.2cm to the right and the orange one would be done. I don’t think he would be party to putting his exalted self at risk.

[CitizenZero]

67. Also

MAGA will use this to paint Trump as a Strongman and a Fascist Hero. Watch them do this at the Republican Convention. This is not a good situation.

[Omnipresent]

68. I didn't think it was a political stunt, to change the dynamics of the race...

If anything, President Biden is lucky.
There really isn’t a shittier candidate to run against than convict.
Convict surviving that shooting, is the ultimate doom of the Republican party in Nov.

[not fooled]

72. Yep, immediately.

Not saying that's my last thought, but it was my first.

[Codifer]

76. Yes.

Because of the fact that however this action was planned or not planned or was or was not a conspiracy or if it was just the ubiquitous lone nut with an AR.... does not matter.... it will be treated as that.

It will be played as a Reichstag Fire event. We could see that it was played IMMEDIATELY by trump. Very convenient political gold photo showing his "red badge of courage" and his defiant fist in the air. Are trump's instincts that perfect? Find the camera and pose. The loop will play 24/7 for days to come and his entrance to the treason convention will be a triumphant march.

There will be retribution for this, whatever it is, from the right wing nuts .... official or not. That stage has been set.

It will be a very long time to election day. These sick bastards are all in. They either win it all or they will be ruined and have to plan for another few decades to chip away at democracy until they again feel that the time is right to try again to destroy democracy.

PUT NOTHING PAST THEM!!! They will do whatever they can do to win.

[TheKentuckian]

79. No. My first thought was in Maxwell Smart's voice.

[regnaD kciN]

82. Not me...

Because, if there’s one thing I know, it’s that Trump would never put himself in the line of fire.

I’ll grant that, when I first heard the news, it was already being reported that one attendee has been killed, so it was obvious the shooting was real. If no one had been struck, I’d be open to the notion that it was a false-flag using blanks, but that was already out of the picture when I first found out.

[Kid Berwyn]

85. Goes with the territory.

Turd Reich.

Wouldn’t be surprised to find it was more house-cleaning than martyrdom on-demand.

Either way, the money behind the Feudalist Society and Heretic Flounders know Drumpf is toast. They think long term.

[FakeNoose]

92. Yes - I posted that it almost seem like the shooter tried to miss Chump

Like it was never the kid's intention to kill him or even severely wound him. At the time I said it, we didn't know who the shooter was.

BUT the SS guys took him down almost immediately. Now it seems like the kid was committing "suicide by cop" because he had no escape route planned.

[Deep State Witch]

94. Yep

Not the first thing that I thought of, but similar. "Staged to inflame the MAGATs into violence."

[valleyrogue]

97. Not me.

Having lived through several of these assassinations/assassination attempts, I know the shooter had to be a lone nut, like all the rest of them.

[orangecrush]

98. Yup

[returnee]

99. I admit I did.

I also have to admit I’m not completely over it.

[brooklynite]

100. I'll be honest: I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories.

Nor do I start my thinking with "we know they'll....."

[SomedayKindaLove]

105. So back in the day

You would have believed and argued that the Tuskegee experiments and NKUltra didn’t exist?

I believe most conspiracy theories are bunk, but every once in a while it is discovered that some are true.

As far as the Trump assassination attempt, the iconic NYT photo beneath an upside down flag seems almost too perfect a MAGA image to be true as far as capturing the moment. That may not be enough to build an entire conspiracy around, but it seems ominous to me.

[brooklynite]

106. "I believe most conspiracy theories are bunk"

In which case, not a good place to start your thought process.

[SomedayKindaLove]

109. My point is not all conspiracies are true

Nor are all of them false. You seem to be indicating you don’t “prescribe” to the existence of the Tuskegee experiments, which was indeed a conspiracy.

[samnsara]

101. i didnt..does that make me young?

[Scruffy1]

122. Me too.

Don't waste time with BS conspiracy theories.

[claudette]

102. Not me

[RobinA]

108. It Took Me

until Sunday morning to go, "Holy crap, Reichstag Fire!" I will say in my defense that I ignored the situation until I got up Sunday morning. I knew the rough details (he wasn't hurt), so I just refused to process it.

[kwolf68]

111. Absolutely

"The Left" shot Trump (even if they didn't, same as Communist started that fire, even though they didn't). So we have to "get control" of "the left".

Why should anyone be shocked, for years these people have been calling Liberals every name in the book, they CALLED BILL CLINTON a communist for crying out loud. It doesn't matter if it's accurate, just keep saying it. They have repeated the same lies over and over and over. They have done everything they can to brainwash people that people (Liberals) who want to provide health care to kids, have good schools and safe streets are "enemies of America", dangerous even.

Ergo, an "enemy" of America is someone you will wage war with. That's what is starting to happen. See how they approach progressive protestors these days? Didn't Dolt 45 want to actually shoot protestors? Enemy of America. And when someone drives his car through a bunch of these people, a collective yawn is heard and we even have some Republicans promoting laws that would decriminalize such acts. Enemy of America.

If Trump wins in November, that's it, game is over. Then we really WILL be enemy of America.

[maxsolomon]

112. Not only did I think it, I said it, and texted it.

We are well and truly fucked by the actions of that little incel POS Zoomer.

[Codifer]

113. That

"little pos zoomer" might be a patsy.

Perhaps this situation is less Reichstag Fire and more "Wag the Dog".

Serendipity is not sufficient to have this so very convenient outcome for trump.

Now we will see a "New Epiphanized trump" who will preach "unity" at the convention.

The "old trump", the one that was losing so badly vrs decency and common sense, is no more. That trump is dead. The "new trump" has been reborn, purged of sin and anointed by gawd.

Even though he has not changed one whit.

[maxsolomon]

114. I don't buy CTs in general.

Was the Reichstag fire deliberate arson? Or was it just exploited by the Nazis?

[Codifer]

115. That is the question.

But the answer is.... It does not matter.

It will be treated as sufficient cause to control.

and erase.

[Orrex]

119. My first thought was "holy shit I hope the shooter is Republican."