The conspiracy theories make us look bad

[iemanja]

Why is it so hard to accept that someone tried to shoot Trump? Why do so many of you need to concoct convoluted theories to explain it away? WaPo has an article about it. The internet is awash with it. They are calling it BlueAnon. BlueAnon, like QAnon.

Minutes after Saturday’s shooting at a Trump rally in Butler, Pa., liberals began flooding social media platforms with conspiracy theories. They claimed the blood on former president Donald Trump’s ear was from a theatrical gel pack; that the shooting was a “false flag,” perhaps coordinated by the Secret Service in collaboration with the Trump campaign; that the scene of a bloodied Trump raising his fist under an American flag was “#staged.”

“When did the Secret Service start allowing the President under duress to tell them ‘to wait’, then stand up to be seen by the crowd fist-pumping?” one user posted on X. “Can you blame me for thinking this is fake?”

The shooting threw into overdrive a phenomenon dubbed “BlueAnon” — a play on the right-wing conspiracy theory QAnon — that refers to liberal conspiracy theories online. As more Americans lose trust in mainstream institutions and turn to partisan commentators and influencers for information, experts say they are seeing a big uptick in the manufacture and spread of BlueAnon conspiracy theories, a sign that the communal warping of reality is spreading well beyond the right.

“The good-versus-evil paradigm of QAnon has really taken hold of the anti-Trump movement and you’re seeing two sides that feel like they are fighting a battle between good and evil,” said Mike Rothschild, author of “The Storm Is Upon Us: How QAnon Became a Movement, Cult and Conspiracy Theory of Everything.” “It’s coming from major leftist and liberal ‘resistance’ influencers who believe that Trump is so devious that he’d fake his own assassination attempt in order to help his campaign.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/07/14/blueanon-conspiracy-theories-trump-rally-shooting/

All this stuff is an embarrassment. Do you really want to be equated to the QAnon followers? Please, don't be like them. Something bad happened. It's not that complicated. Other presidents have had assassination attempts before. It happens. Guns proliferate, and the killer was a conservative with lots of rounds of ammunition. It's a miracle that more politicians haven't been killed. Lord knows lots of school children have been.

[ZZenith]

1. What would you say is Trump's record on telling the truth?

Would you say he’s well-practiced in the art of stagecraft?

The material point is that he has such a history of dishonesty that his faking an assassination attempt is in no way inconceivable. It’s not on par with the notion of Hillary Clinton running a pedo ring in a pizza parlor basement.

[iemanja]

2. This has absolutely nothing to do with his truthfulness

The news caught the attempt live on camera. It's not like we're relying on Trump's word. There is lots of evidence.

[ZZenith]

4. I'm not justifying the continued belief in such a thing.

But to equate the knee jerk reaction of people whose minds, justifiably, immediately went “FAKE!” after he was injured, got a perfect photo op and his dramatic, “FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!” with the twisted and baseless beliefs of Qanon is a bit of a stretch, yes?

[robbob]

22. Knee jerk reactions are one thing...

but there are at least a half dozen threads treading in General Discussion promoting the idea that this was all some staged psy-op move by the Trump campaign.

[Wuddles440]

36. Sorry, but it's entirely too early in the investigation...

to conclude with any certainty or absolutism what the "evidence" to date proves or disproves.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. What-aboutism is the weakest excuse for CTs. "Conceivable" includes "realisticly almost impossible". . . . nt

[BeyondGeography]

3. The dead firefighter was in on it as were the severely wounded

And the Secret Service said, go ahead, make us look completely inept, anything for a Trump photo op. As long as we can point fingers at the local police and they keep quiet about the “plot”.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

11. Rest in Peace. Also, not even tRump would put himself in rifle sights of 20 yo troubled man. . . . nt

[Dorian Gray]

20. That's the biggest reason why you know it wasn't staged

bc trump is a coward and never would put himself in harms way.

[ArkansasDemocrat1]

52. Perhaps staged and he didn't know

Wouldn't put it past Republicreeps to try to kill him before the RNC. His sell-by date is expired.

[Blue Full Moon]

30. Trump does not care if people die

[yagotme]

39. Even himself? nt

[Blue Full Moon]

40. Nothing is going to happen to him, he's much to important.

The whole thing about that shooting smells. They always place snipers and that building that was indentified as a security breach wasn’t manned. I don’t think that the secret service is incompetent. At that range considered point blank with that gun.

[yagotme]

42. Headshot at 130 yards is easy for some, difficult for others.

How much experience did he have with that rifle? Not his rifle, got it from his dad (I heard), was it even sighted in for him? Bought 50 rds of ammo day before, the "good" stuff is sold in boxes of 20, the cheap "blasting" ammo (usually less accurate) is sometimes sold in boxes of 50. He was confronted by local LE immediately begore shooting, so was he in a hurried/stressful situation? He didn't have much of an exit plan, either. Got deaded by SS counter sniper. My guess is that Drumph is one luck SOB, and missed death by an inch or so. I wouldn't want to stand there, moving my head around, waiting for "my shooter" to "just miss" me, so I could play the victim. Too much room for error on the shooters part.

[iemanja]

46. So you think they deliberately allowed it to happen?

Why?

[iemanja]

53. Snipers were inside buildings

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/07/16/trump-rally-shooter-building-police-snipers/

[intheflow]

63. 😯 I hadn't seen that detail yet.

Article says SS and local sheriffs are blaming each other. My guess it’s the local cops who misunderstood their orders. I mean, it was a SHED. They didn’t hear anyone crawling around on the roof? Did they assume it was someone trying to get a better view, and/or that the SS covered the roof and they only thought they had to look out a window or doorway to secure the building? They were in there for the shade, lazy hicks figured it would be a cakewalk ‘cause the Feds were overseeing the whole event.

[iemanja]

65. It wasn't the brightest, to be sure.

[Sympthsical]

5. I just keep hearing that dialogue from Billy Madison in my head

The "I award you no points" one.

And it gets cloaked in "Just asking questions!" That makes it dumber. Because the Internet and media are saturated with information right now. Easily researched, highly visible, as thorough as it can be information. The "just asking questions!" stuff screams, "I have done no reading, have made no attempt to find answers, but I will still somehow form an opinion, make unfounded assertions, air out a lack of knowledge for some reason, and then get hostile if anyone points it out and rest on 'I have a right to an opinion!'."

Yeah, we have the right to remain silent, too. Wisdom is knowing how to choose between them.

Some of this stuff makes our side look terrible.

And I am honestly disheartened so much of it is being encouraged, allowed, or supported.

Remember when misinformation and disinformation were a bad thing? Reality-based community? Anyone? All done with that now?

This is just what the Internet and social media are doing to us now. When people close themselves off in a world where the concept of unacceptable facts exists, facts become unacceptable.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

13. "Just asking questions!" cloaks the real agenda: seeking confirmation, avoiding unconfirming info. . . . nt

[betsuni]

6. CT that DNC/Establishment/Hillary rigged the 2016 primary gave Trump the idea of rigging and used it

effectively for his Crooked Hillary thing. That was really embarrassing too (and all the non-right-wing CT lies about Hillary that Republicans used as well)!

[Rhiannon12866]

7. And he says the same thing about Joe Biden who has close to 50 years of honorable service

[Pompoy]

8. Really? Hadn't noticed those conspiracy theories. How deep did the Post have to dig to find them?

Then again, democraticunderground is the only liberal forum I get to read, and I ignore a lot of posts if they get like that.
I'm usually arguing with right wingers in right winger forums or just getting straight news from the NYT, the Boston Globe and WAPO.
And whatever pops up on the Google news page.
I get to see far, far more conspiracy talk from right wing nuts and media.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. There was one prominent on the DU Greatest page, so no digging needed

Over 50 recs. And there were several other threads too.

Yes, I'm sure there's even more right wing conspiracy talk. But there was plenty on DU.

[iemanja]

47. There are many such posts on this site

and Twitter is full of them. I don't think they had to look far at all.

[Lucky Luciano]

9. Big knr. Thanks

[musicblind]

14. we cannot be like them

we have to remain the party of facts. someone attempted to assassinate trump. that is a fact. if that fact leaves you with an uncomfortable feeling of cognitive dissonance, you should get over it quickly. there are few things worse than people who live in information silos while wallowing in confirmation biases.

[Deminpenn]

16. Well said

Could not agree more.

[hadEnuf]

26. We have spent so much time trying to not be like them

they are now goose stepping over our faces.

[Wuddles440]

34. So depressingly true!

[Scrivener7]

15. I remember being chastised here for saying Russia helped him get elected in 2016.

People said that was a conspiracy theory. Then the story of the Russian troll farms and Cambridge Analytica came out and it turned out to be worse than "the conspiracy theorists" imagined.

I put nothing past that man.

[Kaleva]

17. Can you provide links?

[edisdead]

37. As a reader I remember it.

I remember seeing people say that “No oir elections are secure and that type of speculation makes us look like CTs”

Even though the angle that Russia and CA took had nothing really to do with the actual election.

[Kaleva]

43. Should be easy enough to find using advanced search

I've gone back as far as 2012/2013 to provide links to posts I made back then

One also have to consider the possibility that the people who tried to pooh pooh the Russian efforts were themselves Russian bots or RW trolls.

Until we see actual examples of such posts, we can't dismiss that.

[betsuni]

24. Oh yes, Russian interference was a hoax because Russia was nice and Democrats bad; hacking Democrats'

emails was fine because Wikileaks was, like, the Left and nice like Russia; non-right-wing CTs and lies about Democrats were also fine.

[JI7]

18. Bush let 9-11 happen on purpose

There have always been conspiracy theories from the left leaning side.

But Republicans have them holding public office. It's not just fringe things on the internet with them.

[GreenWave]

19. After decades of them spraying shit all over reality, I will not defend Trump nor stamp out anti-Trump rumors.

Rumor volat. The Cunctator deserves it and much more!

[Scrivener7]

29. This. I'm really not going to worry if my distrust of the convicted felon "looks bad" to someone.

Jesus. Will we EVER learn? EVERYTHING he does should FIRST be assumed to be a scam. Do we really not understand that yet?

[Nixie]

35. Exactly. Everything is a scam, and after that the sarcasm

kicks in, which is a lot of what I read instead of so-called conspiracies.

[edisdead]

38. Right!

And then people will ask “Why are they so good at messaging and we are so bad?”

[hamsterjill]

50. Right there with you.

I don’t care how I “look” either. I get tired of morality posts and being told I need to behave a certain way. As long as I abide by the rules of DU, I figure I have a right to express myself freely.

No one is looking at a website and saying “they look bad”. It’s an arrogant assumption in my opinion to think anyone outside of DU would care.

[sunnybrook]

21. In the immediate aftermath

Little was known. Unlike Qanon, the idea that it was fake or staged has faded. It seems clear that it was real.

But in the moments after it happened, days before the convention, to our infamous lying con man former pres, who is running to grift and stay out of prison - the idea that he could have had something to do with it, the lying "reality" actor, was not at all far fetched. And when it was reported his injury was from shattering glass but the press said he said it was a bullet - he says alot of things, about 90% which are lies.

It is clear that this actually happened and appears to not be fake. This is the difference between us and Qanon. We have common sense. The question from journalists could be framed more as people jumped to conclusions due to a deep lack of trust and faith in a serial liar.

As far as us looking bad - there may be too much emphasis on that. Like pausing campaign ads. Because we are so "nice."

Most serious people have moved on from "was this fake?" But the initial reaction to that unprecedented, lying sack of shit is in line with what you could reasonably expect from him.

[Quixote1818]

23. It's totaly dumb but the right is pushing conspiracys on this 1000000 times more.

Youtube is flooded with rightwing conspiracy BS on this.

[Irish_Dem]

25. Asking questions about anything to do with Trump is NOT foolish.

It is a requirement for any rational person.

[ecstatic]

27. If blueanon helps us to win, I'm fine with it

Especially if the alternative is that we turn trump into some sort of hero who survived. trump is a liar and everything that happens with him needs to be questioned.

[Irish_Dem]

28. It is very naive not to question the motives of a ruthless sociopath.

Whose minder Putin is a ruthless and vicious psychopath.

The event may indeed be just what it appears to be.

But most of the time when it comes to trump that is not always the case.

[Blue Full Moon]

31. Try just conspriacy

[BlueTsunami2018]

32. It's funny how they can literally say or do anything with zero repercussions....

And yet, if anyone even questions the motives of an unabashed conman, we “look bad”. Nothing is out of bounds for them, nothing. And we’re constantly backpedaling and apologizing for doing things that don’t approach the outrageousness of their daily behavior.

Always bringing a banana to a knife fight.

[doc03]

33. I don't want to feed this ridiculous conspiracy stuff. But I saw an arial photo of the fair grounds

on the TV. There are several low, nearly flat roof buildings with bright white roofs. Behind them is a water tower
where if there was a lookout a person on any of them would show up like they were wearing a yellow safety vest.
I can't believe the SS didn't have someone stationed there. Even Barry Fife would have stationed Goober
on the water tower. Epic fail!

[Blue Full Moon]

41. Discounting everything you don't like as conspiracy is what makes us look bad

[iemanja]

48. If you're able to provide solid evidence, then it's not

Without evidence, it's groundless.

[tenderfoot]

44. Showing sympathy to a CONVICTED criminal/sex abuser that tried to overthrow the government is what's really BAD

eom

[iemanja]

49. Nothing else on the planet is bad?

That's quite a yard stick you have. It must help you get away with a lot.

[tenderfoot]

54. Your compassion for evil is heartwarming.

eom

[iemanja]

60. Nice strawman you have there

[DFW]

45. Not if they're presented as idle speculation

It’s different if they’re being presented as Fox style “many people are saying, and this is therefore fact.”

[iemanja]

51. Fox passes it off as a news channel

which obviously makes it worse. The idle speculation is bad. People should devote their attention to evidence, not what they wish were the case. The quest should always be for the truth or the mind is wasted.

[Torchlight]

55. I just don't really see informal, idle speculative discussion

moving anyone's needle.

I figure for a couple of days or a week, stories, narratives, and assertions will be all over the place, won't do a thing to change the taste of mustard, and will have no real consequence to measure.

And I guess I'm part of the speculative movement as well, as I've been speculating it was a weird little fella who's mind has become abnormal somewhere along the line he emotionally or mentally snapped. But that's all inference and idle speculation on my part.

[suegeo]

56. The gossip columnist who wrote this is a media whore online

From what little I know of her (Lorenz), taken from the link, is that she is a gossip. Making money for herself by getting clicks on her gossip mongering.

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/taylor-lorenz-extremely-online/

Qanon is a domestic terror organization, likely Mike Flynn's doing. American ISIS group egged on by disgraced traitor Mike Flynn.

The left is not a domestic terror organization. Why is this media whores online gossip columnist smearing most of the left with a whole lotta mud?

I didn't read the Washington post hit piece. Don't want this Lorenz media horse to make money off of smearing the left.

[iemanja]

59. Thanks for your sexist tropes

It makes it all so much better. Am I a whore too? What kind of whore am I? An evidence whore?

[senseandsensibility]

57. Of all the problems we face in this election

people who have ideas (some justified because of the lack of transparency) that they express on a discussion board is way, way down the list. It probably wouldn't make my top hundred. No group of people is perfect, but we need to stop holding ourselves to an impossible standard and criticizing each other. There's no time for this navel gazing. We should be going on offense.

[iemanja]

61. What's the lack of transparency?

It's an investigation in process, like all investigations.

No where did I say it was the worst problem we face in an election. What I said is the conspiracy theories are embarrassing to the party.

[senseandsensibility]

64. I guess we care about very different things

I am not embarrassed by anything coming from our side. I don't care what the right says about us. Their opinion is worthless. The lack of transparency has been documented here by many posters. No one is asking about the extent of his injuries. Not even asking. It is a forbidden topic. I don't care if he won't answer. Ask anyway. That's what journalism is.

[iemanja]

66. "Documented"?

What's the documentation? Speculation isn't documentation, and knowing the difference is crucial. It's a question of intellectual integrity, which is my priority for myself. I lack respect for those who don't care about it, but as you say, we have different priorities. If there is indeed evidence, that is another matter. Speculation, however, is not evidence.

[senseandsensibility]

67. Lack of coverage is a form of propaganda and slanting the news

Not asking questions of one side and asking the other is bias. If you won't acknowledge that or you don't care that's fine. Again, I am not embarrassed for pointing this out and I am not going to ignore it. If Dems objecting to the biased coverage embarrassed you, I have no advice to offer.

[iemanja]

69. Goalposts moved

You started with "documenting" issues about Trump's injuries, and now you move on to a completely separate issue of media bias, which is not the point of my OP, as you well know. So it is in fact a non-sequitur.

[bigtree]

58. it would help if the media was more comprehensive about the reports about his background

...making clear his republican-adjacent affiliations and contacts.

Also releasing Trump's full medical report would go a long way. Until then it;s just going to be open game for opinions about what happened.

And, as I've said before, this is a political season and exaggeration is the ammunition. We're not trying so much to make a pat case, as we are working to cause voters to imagine the worst about Trump's return to the WH.

We're in the middle of a political campaign and Joe Biden's being accused of shooting Trump - and that's the least of the republican's charges flying around.

Telling Democratic citizens to be careful about what they believe and relate is counterproductive. We're going to go into the voting booth in November using whatever IMPRESSIONS we have of these two candidates, not relying on an itemized sheet of facts.

Reporters need be careful with facts, but citizens are all about feels.

Democratic voters need to use our imaginations and envision what a dangerous and chaotic country we'll be facing if Trump gets into office again.

There's zero consequence for speaking your mind about Trump here. Take advantage of it. Don't parse yourself. The worst of Trump and republicans has yet to be fully revealed and the worst of what we may imagine about him is very likely true.

Be citizens. Make up your own mind about what you believe. Listen to your fellow Democrats who feel the same.

Don't get bullied into crossing 'I's and dotting our 'T's before expressing what we believe. We're not the press, and we have more of a chance of getting our speculation right than they do with actual facts right in front of them.

[Wingus Dingus]

62. We need to be 100% suspicious of MAGA, 100% of the time.

There is no bottom with them. That doesn't mean believing in implausible scenarios, but it DOES mean being skeptical and aware.

[WarGamer]

68. he first chyrons were laughable...

"Trump rushed off stage after loud noises"

bullshit like that.

good post