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gab13by13

(32,321 posts)
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 09:41 AM Jul 2024

The Motive Behind The Assassination Attempt

The motive of the shooter may or may not be extremely important.

If the motive is damaging to TSF, will Chris Wray allow it to be released?

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The Motive Behind The Assassination Attempt (Original Post) gab13by13 Jul 2024 OP
The motive could simply be a mentally disturbed suicidal young man angry at the world as is often in these situations. Deek1935 Jul 2024 #1
I agree. Unfortunately, we've seen this pattern many times. Buckeyeblue Jul 2024 #4
Evidence atreides1 Jul 2024 #5
That could just be because nearly ""nothing's been shown." Igel Jul 2024 #22
Most likely - this poor soul wanted his name to live on forever underpants Jul 2024 #2
His mother is a democrat, his father is a libertarian- AkFemDem Jul 2024 #3
Both parents were in the Trump campaign's donor database. Fiendish Thingy Jul 2024 #6
It was the voter database, which is every registered voter in the US. LeftInTX Jul 2024 #25
While true ITAL Jul 2024 #12
I thought it was Odie underpants Jul 2024 #17
I live in Los Angeles ITAL Jul 2024 #19
When was that rally scheduled? I wonder if the kid was planning an attack somewhere and the rally came up brewens Jul 2024 #16
He had just bought enough ammo for a mass shooting. Walleye Jul 2024 #28
He bought 50 rounds. Straw Man Jul 2024 #54
I think you're right, he wanted to go down in history, what he didn't think of was this has become so commonplace nobody Walleye Jul 2024 #27
I've been very curious so I've done some digging AkFemDem Jul 2024 #7
Also- random little odd fact AkFemDem Jul 2024 #8
I have a lot of relatives I never contact misanthrope Jul 2024 #41
I take it from this he had no siblings? Walleye Jul 2024 #29
Shooter Thomas Crooks has a sister age 22 wishstar Jul 2024 #32
Wow, that's sad Walleye Jul 2024 #37
Thanks for the info! Kaleva Jul 2024 #34
Another classmate said entirely different stuff about him womanofthehills Jul 2024 #53
The majority who have been interviewed have said he was bullied and weird and quiet- AkFemDem Jul 2024 #55
It's a crazy situation. usonian Jul 2024 #9
I personally don't think you're going to find any kind of stopdiggin Jul 2024 #10
Seems he wanted to kick start Civil War USA 2.0 Kid Berwyn Jul 2024 #11
While that might very well be Putin's "ultimate goal" TheProle Jul 2024 #20
From what I can tell, DUers are good at detecting BS. Kid Berwyn Jul 2024 #24
I read interviews from Crook's classmates, gab13by13 Jul 2024 #13
The local news station noted a cell phone and transmitter WhiteTara Jul 2024 #14
Yes but it is 2024. Tommy Carcetti Jul 2024 #15
My understanding is that the transmitter was related to the explosives. n/t Ms. Toad Jul 2024 #52
I'm surprised it has taken this long for someone to take a shot at the guy. Ron Green Jul 2024 #18
I heard far more hatred toward Obama misanthrope Jul 2024 #42
I think we were hanging out with different groups of people. Ron Green Jul 2024 #49
I didn't say I was drinking with them misanthrope Jul 2024 #50
Yeah, Ive heard people say it too and when I have responded to them I said Captain Zero Jul 2024 #51
This article has some good info Mosby Jul 2024 #21
I hope so, I hope he left a note of some sort. NT Tickle Jul 2024 #23
Motive is always mental illness MOMFUDSKI Jul 2024 #26
I feel the need to repeat this, gab13by13 Jul 2024 #30
This kind of reminds me of the song by Peter Gabriel-Family Snapshot. ArnoldLayne Jul 2024 #31
Here you go. keep_left Jul 2024 #35
Thank you for posting that very chilling but wonderful song by the musical genius of Peter Gabriel. ArnoldLayne Jul 2024 #39
You're welcome. It's a fan favorite. keep_left Jul 2024 #44
If Trump had RAPED the shooter it might be MORE damaging Model35mech Jul 2024 #33
Why aren't Dems all over this in the media?? AntiFascist Jul 2024 #36
BECAUSE Skittles Jul 2024 #45
HUH?? AntiFascist Jul 2024 #46
HUH?? Skittles Jul 2024 #47
That explains the Republican point of view... AntiFascist Jul 2024 #48
Motive: Photo Op tenderfoot Jul 2024 #38
Aren't various congressional committees going to investigate all aspects of the incident? n/t OneGrassRoot Jul 2024 #40
He sounds mentally ill. Also searched for the royal family. LeftInTX Jul 2024 #43
 

Deek1935

(1,055 posts)
1. The motive could simply be a mentally disturbed suicidal young man angry at the world as is often in these situations.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 09:44 AM
Jul 2024

Buckeyeblue

(6,352 posts)
4. I agree. Unfortunately, we've seen this pattern many times.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 09:56 AM
Jul 2024

His target was more famous than most. That's all.

atreides1

(16,799 posts)
5. Evidence
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 09:59 AM
Jul 2024

Nothing so far has shown him to be mentally disturbed. Was he different, a little strange, perhaps...but none of that indicates mental illness!



Igel

(37,535 posts)
22. That could just be because nearly ""nothing's been shown."
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 01:59 PM
Jul 2024

We know he registered (R), his parents are (D) (but one was formerly, apparently, (L)). He voted in the '22 general election, but we don't know *how* he voted (and if you're (R) you can easily vote (D) in a general election--it only matters for closed primaries, the elections folk in Butler county said he only voted just that one time).

Apparently he donated $10 to a progressive group that was anti-Trump (that's a bit redundant), but was that a pro-Biden donation on inauguration day in response to an email campaign that was "inauguration-themed". Note two things: It went to Crooks' e-mail address (which he probably didn't share with his father). Also note that "the email address associated with the contribution only made the one contribution and was unsubscribed from our lists 2 years ago.” ( https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/fact-check-yes-trump-rally-shooter-once-donated-money-to-a-democratic-cause/ar-BB1q2iDT )

What else do we know? Trivia, like his high school, an award for math.

I don't see how any of that, with the most recent data point pushing 2 years in age, means much of anything. I guess you can get two points saying he went from (R) the month he turned 18 to at least (D)-leaning by 1/20/21, with his actual party preference in 11/22 being maybe (R), maybe (D), and now maybe he's just entirely alienated so in the absence of information from records or friends/family it's really unknowable.

underpants

(196,495 posts)
2. Most likely - this poor soul wanted his name to live on forever
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 09:48 AM
Jul 2024

I mean everyone knows who Lee Harvey Oswald and John Wilkes Booth are.

He’s just another lost kid sadly. He could do a school or public shooting and try to up the count or be more malicious than past ones or he gets one big one. He went with the latter.

The parents could also be a key. I’m not blaming them because we just don’t know. This kid had access to an AR-15. He didn’t have to use a credit card knowing full well he’d never have to pay it off. Apparently his folks were big Trump supporters so a side note may be him getting back at his parents.

 

AkFemDem

(2,508 posts)
3. His mother is a democrat, his father is a libertarian-
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 09:52 AM
Jul 2024

that doesn't necessarily mean they don't support Trump, of course, but I'm curious about the source they were Trump supporters.

Fiendish Thingy

(23,236 posts)
6. Both parents were in the Trump campaign's donor database.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:02 AM
Jul 2024

Thus is a distraction from the goal of defeating Trump in November.

LeftInTX

(34,295 posts)
25. It was the voter database, which is every registered voter in the US.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 02:35 PM
Jul 2024

Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2024, 03:26 PM - Edit history (1)

They purchase voter databases from the states. Every voter is in. The parties contract with marketing research firms who do scores and profiles. Most of the scoring is done via algorithms. They profile millions of voters. Much of it is BS too. I profile as Hispanic because of my husband's name. Many people get education level profiles based on their address. A professor in a low income area, got a "college graduate" score of 7.00.

Their local GOP precinct chair said they are not in her list and that says everything.

Neighbor says Trump shooter's family had no political signs in yard as parents' affiliations surface

Amy, who spoke to reporters alongside Holly – a local GOP captain – attested that the media would be hard-pressed to find a neighbor who could vouch for any signs having been seen in the Crooks' yard.

"I give out the signs, and I've never given to that house, I'll tell you that," said Holly, who alluded to the fact Crooks was a registered Republican.

The shooting suspect also donated $15 to a progressive political action committee on the day of President Biden's inauguration.

"I walk by here all the time, other neighbors do," Amy added. "You will not find one neighbor that will confirm or ever say they saw those signs in the yard."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/neighbor-says-trump-shooters-family-had-no-political-signs-in-yard-as-parents-affiliations-surface/ar-BB1q7SBg

__

If they were Trump donors, she would have been at that house. I'm the Democratic precinct chair and I know who the Dem supporters are. I have access to all the voters, not just Democrats.

The Democrats used to have hot button issues in their scores, (Reproductive rights, gun control etc) but we currently do not. Probably thought it wasn't cost effective.
We do have aggregate scores however.
My MAGAT neighbor has a DNC support score of 8.20.
Also their precinct is much smaller than mine, so their precinct chair would be quite familiar with who has signs up. If she doesn't visit the house regularly and sees a sign, she would contact them.

Random neighbors seeing Trump signs could have seen them at another house. The precinct chair notices these particular things however. They also have everyone's name and address. Random neighbors my not know the occupants etc.
When I see a house that doesn't have known Democrats with a Democratic sign, I knock on the door. I then log who lives there. Sometimes the person isn't even a registered voter or is registered elsewhere etc.

ITAL

(1,323 posts)
12. While true
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:32 AM
Jul 2024

Not many recognize the names Guiteau or Czolgosz (and even I as one of the few who do know the names of Garfield and McKinley's assassins, had to look up how to spell them).

underpants

(196,495 posts)
17. I thought it was Odie
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 11:19 AM
Jul 2024

Stupid joke I know.

Few people even know about those men being killed which is sad.

ITAL

(1,323 posts)
19. I live in Los Angeles
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 11:53 AM
Jul 2024

And a couple of years ago I found the text of a couple of Woodrow Wilson speeches when he visited here as president. In both of them he referenced President McKinley, which initially I thought was a bit odd since they came from different parties. But then I thought about it and since it had been less than twenty years since McKinley had been assassinated, it made sense that he would/could be used by both parties speaking about common American beliefs, etc.. I would never have really thought about it that way before. Time is strange like that, in my lifetime 18-20 years is nothing, but if you throw that same time period a century earlier I don't always necessarily correlate that 1901-1919 is the same difference in time as 2006-2024.

 

brewens

(15,359 posts)
16. When was that rally scheduled? I wonder if the kid was planning an attack somewhere and the rally came up
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:49 AM
Jul 2024

and was a tempting target.

Why would a Trumper want to kill trump? You can't expect the shooter to be behaving rationally. It doesn't have to make sense. If it's a specific beef with Trump I hope we find out what it was.

The bomb making is interesting. Hard to tell with no details but with mom being a democrat? It would have been pretty hard to have hidden building bombs from my mom, I know that much.

Straw Man

(6,947 posts)
54. He bought 50 rounds.
Thu Jul 18, 2024, 03:33 AM
Jul 2024

Rifle ammo generally comes in 20-round packages, but 50 and 100 are also commonly available. Bulk packs of 500 or 1000 are less common. But 50 rounds isn't even two full magazines, assuming the standard 30-round AR magazine. In contrast, the Uvalde shooter brought over 1500 rounds to the school, and fired more than 150 rounds.

It's more likely that he planned to do exactly what he attempted to do: a sniper-style assassination.

Walleye

(44,806 posts)
27. I think you're right, he wanted to go down in history, what he didn't think of was this has become so commonplace nobody
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 02:38 PM
Jul 2024

Remembers who the shooter was as soon as the next mass shooting happens

 

AkFemDem

(2,508 posts)
7. I've been very curious so I've done some digging
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:05 AM
Jul 2024

Nothing super illuminative here but paints a general picture:

And from multiple media sources this is what I see-

Crooks was bullied throughout childhood.
He was a loner, without a social support network.
He excelled at history in HS.
Never in trouble at HS, quiet loner who got good grades.
He was a terrible shot in HS, tried out for the rifle team and was rejected because he couldn't hit the target.
Mom and Dad are behavioral therapists.
Dad is a libertarian and big gun nut.
Trump campaign targeted Crooks father in their area profiling efforts as a potential likely vote.
Mom is a democrat.
Crooks registered republican.
Crooks once donated a whole $15 to Act Blue as a 17 yr old kid.
Crooks got an associates in engineering science but worked as a nursing aid.
Still lived with parents.
Neighbors describe family as normal and nice.
Dad called police after shooting because he was worried his son and gun were both missing.
No posted political sign at family home.

 

AkFemDem

(2,508 posts)
8. Also- random little odd fact
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:10 AM
Jul 2024

An uncle who was interviewed said “I haven’t seen the kid since he was little,” Mark Crooks said. “He never wanted to bother [with maintaining a relationship], so we don’t see him.”

It just struck me as odd that he hadn't spoken to his nephew since he was little because he didn't seem to bother with maintaining a relationship- most children don't "bother" with that, their adult relatives do the outreach and maintenance and then it carries on mutually as adults. It just strikes me as one more nail in the no social support network coffin, which I think is critical with many of these mass shooters. The lack of social support is a major thing in a person being alienated and disconnected.

misanthrope

(9,495 posts)
41. I have a lot of relatives I never contact
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 06:40 PM
Jul 2024

Cousins, aunts, uncles, etc. We just don't have much in common and the things that interest me are of no interest to them. We're also on opposite sides of a cultural gulf, with them being evangelical Southern Christians and all the perspectives you would associate with that.

I don't feel like that separation detracts from my life. My in-laws aren't much different, just replace the evangelical Christianity with traditional, conservative Roman Catholicism. Although my Catholic in-laws kind of look down their noses at my Protestant relatives, seeing them as regressive near-Neanderthals, I don't see much difference in them. They all stand on the same side of the culture wars and all vote the same way.

womanofthehills

(10,988 posts)
53. Another classmate said entirely different stuff about him
Thu Jul 18, 2024, 03:26 AM
Jul 2024

Said he hated all politicians- was an arrogant know it all. Had a group of weird friends & he & friends got in trouble Freshman yr for talk of shooting up school. This classmate said he never saw him bullied.

Latest from FBI (supposedly) - might have wanted to kill Biden next. Had dates of where both candidates would be.

 

AkFemDem

(2,508 posts)
55. The majority who have been interviewed have said he was bullied and weird and quiet-
Thu Jul 18, 2024, 07:59 AM
Jul 2024

Personally, as someone who was bullied pretty badly in HS after moving to a new state, I believe that version. In my experience some people choose to either not notice or just deny whats right before their eyes. Some of the people who have spoken up seemed to actually be admitting to being participatory or at least passive observers of the abuse. Their stories rang pretty true. I'm 100% sure there will be some who deny it because to admit it, means admitting they were part of the problem.

usonian

(25,324 posts)
9. It's a crazy situation.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:10 AM
Jul 2024

While nobody can blame authorities from taking out a shooter, there goes the motive.

OTOH, (IMO) someone who acts out their fantasies in violent acts often announces them in advance via antisocial media.

I liken it to an army that has scads of surveillance data and can't apply it on the scene.

That sentence also explains why collecting too much data (ahem) is not the answer, and don't tell me "AI".

stopdiggin

(15,463 posts)
10. I personally don't think you're going to find any kind of
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:24 AM
Jul 2024

deep (or articulate) pool of motivation here. And that despite all the 'hay' that the spin meisters will attempt to make over it. Also don't think that this incident necessarily means anything - either profound or mundane - in terms of politics.

This kid doesn't look like anyone's idea of a useful ... Anything. And thus the idea of recruitment or grooming seems - specious ... I'm sure we'll pick apart this guy's social media and internet history. Looking for threads and connections ... But, really - the larger truth is, the guy's a punk 20 year old kid - and maybe not a real bright one at that. The deeper irony here is that the 'stochastic' argument (meaning totally random - which probably best fits here) has largely been attributed to the side to which it here rebounds. A bit like, "the hand that feeds you .."

Kid Berwyn

(24,395 posts)
11. Seems he wanted to kick start Civil War USA 2.0
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:28 AM
Jul 2024

That's the ultimate goal of putin. He doesn't care if trump or vd pants is pee-resident.

TheProle

(3,980 posts)
20. While that might very well be Putin's "ultimate goal"
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 11:57 AM
Jul 2024

we know for a fact that distraction, division and chasing conspiracies is right up there for him.

So.... well done, DU!

Kid Berwyn

(24,395 posts)
24. From what I can tell, DUers are good at detecting BS.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 02:20 PM
Jul 2024

Official Experts, however, are another matter. Case in point: the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. When the critics of the Warren Commission's "no conspiracy" conclusion began to get traction in the national press, CIA called out their team in the media to label such doubters of the official story line as "conspiracy theorists." The label has stuck and is today used to smear critics and stop discussion of many subjects.



TO: Chiefs, Certain Stations and Bases
INFO: Document Number 1035-960
FROM: Chief, WOVIEW for FOOIA Review on SEP 1976
SUBJECT: Countering Criticism of the Warren Report


4 January 1967

PSYCH

1. Our Concern. From the day of President Kennedy's assassination on, there has been speculation about the responsibility for his murder. Although this was stemmed for a time by the Warren Commission report, (which appeared at the end of September 1964), various writers have now had time to scan the Commission's published report and documents for new pretexts for questioning, and there has been a new wave of books and articles criticizing the Commission's findings. In most cases the critics have speculated as to the existence of some kind of conspiracy, and often they have implied that the Commission itself was involved. Presumably as a result of the increasing challenge to the Warren Commission's report, a public opinion poll recently indicated that 46% of the American public did not think that Oswald acted alone, while more than half of those polled thought that the Commission had left some questions unresolved. Doubtless polls abroad would show similar, or possibly more adverse results.

"Western European critics" see Kennedy's assassination as part of a subtle conspiracy attributable to "perhaps even (in rumors I have heard) Kennedy's successor [Johnson]." One Barbara Garson has made the same point in another way by her parody of Shakespeare's "Macbeth" entitled "MacBird," with what was obviously President Kennedy (Ken O Dune) in the role of Duncan, and President Johnson (MacBird) in the role of Macbeth.

2. This trend of opinion is a matter of concern to the U.S. government, including our organization. The members of the Warren Commission were naturally chosen for their integrity, experience and prominence. They represented both major parties, and they and their staff were deliberately drawn from all sections of the country. Just because of the standing of the Commissioners, efforts to impugn their rectitude and wisdom tend to cast doubt on the whole leadership of American society. Moreover, there seems to be an increasing tendency to hint that President Johnson himself, as the one person who might be said to have benefited, was in some way responsible for the assassination. Innuendo of such seriousness affects not only the individual concerned, but also the whole reputation of the American government. Our organization itself is directly involved: among other facts, we contributed information to the investigation. Conspiracy theories have frequently thrown suspicion on our organization, for example by falsely alleging that Lee Harvey Oswald worked for us. The aim of this dispatch is to provide material countering and discrediting the claims of the conspiracy theorists, so as to inhibit the circulation of such claims in other countries. Background information is supplied in a classified section and in a number of unclassified attachments.

3. Action. We do not recommend that discussion of the assassination question be initiated where it is not already taking place. Where discussion is active [business] addresses are requested:

a. To discuss the publicity problem with [?] and friendly elite contacts (especially politicians and editors), pointing out that the Warren Commission made as thorough an investigation as humanly possible, that the charges of the critics are without serious foundation, and that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition. Point out also that parts of the conspiracy talk appear to be deliberately generated by Communist propagandists. Urge them to use their influence to discourage unfounded and irresponsible speculation.
b. To employ propaganda assets to [negate] and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are

(I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in,
(II) politically interested,
(III) financially interested,
(IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or
(V) infatuated with their own theories
.


In the course of discussions of the whole phenomenon of criticism, a useful strategy may be to single out Epstein's theory for attack, using the attached Fletcher [?] article and Spectator piece for background. (Although Mark Lane's book is much less convincing that Epstein's and comes off badly where confronted by knowledgeable critics, it is also much more difficult to answer as a whole, as one becomes lost in a morass of unrelated details.

4. In private to media discussions not directed at any particular writer, or in attacking publications which may be yet forthcoming, the following arguments should be useful:

a. No significant new evidence has emerged which the Commission did not consider. The assassination is sometimes compared (e.g., by Joachim Joesten and Bertrand Russell) with the Dreyfus case; however, unlike that case, the attacks on the Warren Commission have produced no new evidence, no new culprits have been convincingly identified, and there is no agreement among the critics. (A better parallel, though an imperfect one, might be with the Reichstag fire of 1933, which some competent historians (Fritz Tobias, A. J. P. Taylor, D. C. Watt) now believe was set by Van der Lubbe on his own initiative, without acting for either Nazis or Communists; the Nazis tried to pin the blame on the Communists, but the latter have been more successful in convincing the world that the Nazis were to blame.)
b. Critics usually overvalue particular items and ignore others. They tend to place more emphasis on the recollections of individual witnesses (which are less reliable and more divergent Q and hence offer more hand-holds for criticism) and less on ballistics, autopsy, and photographic evidence. A close examination of the Commission's records will usually show that the conflicting eyewitness accounts are quoted out of context, or were discarded by the Commission for good and sufficient reason.
c. Conspiracy on the large scale often suggested would be impossible to conceal in the United States, esp. since informants could expect to receive large royalties, etc. Note that Robert Kennedy, Attorney General at the time and John F. Kennedy's brother, would be the last man to overlook or conceal any conspiracy. And as one reviewer pointed out, Congressman Gerald R. Ford would hardly have held his tongue for the sake of the Democratic administration, and Senator Russell would have had every political interest in exposing any misdeeds on the part of Chief Justice Warren. A conspirator moreover would hardly choose a location for a shooting where so much depended on conditions beyond his control: the route, the speed of the cars, the moving target, the risk that the assassin would be discovered. A group of wealthy conspirators could have arranged much more secure conditions.
d. Critics have often been enticed by a form of intellectual pride: they light on some theory and fall in love with it; they also scoff at the Commission because it did not always answer every question with a flat decision one way or the other. Actually, the make-up of the Commission and its staff was an excellent safeguard against over-commitment to any one theory, or against the illicit transformation of probabilities into certainties.
e. Oswald would not have been any sensible person's choice for a co-conspirator. He was a "loner," mixed up, of questionable reliability and an unknown quantity to any professional intelligence service.
f. As to charges that the Commission's report was a rush job, it emerged three months after the deadline originally set. But to the degree that the Commission tried to speed up its reporting, this was largely due to the pressure of irresponsible speculation already appearing, in some cases coming from the same critics who, refusing to admit their errors, are now putting out new criticism.
g. Such vague accusations as that "more than ten people have died mysteriously" can always be explained in some natural way e.g.: the individuals concerned have for the most part died of natural causes; the Commission staff questioned 418 witnesses (the FBI interviewed far more people, conduction 25,000 interviews and reinterviews), and in such a large group, a certain number of deaths are to be expected. (When Penn Jones, one of the originators of the "ten mysterious deaths" line, appeared on television, it emerged that two of the deaths on his list were from heart attacks, one from cancer, one was from a head-on collision on a bridge, and one occurred when a driver drifted into a bridge abutment.)


5. Where possible, counter speculation by encouraging reference to the Commission's Report itself. Open-minded foreign readers should still be impressed by the care, thoroughness, objectivity and speed with which the Commission worked. Reviewers of other books might be encouraged to add to their account the idea that, checking back with the report itself, they found it far superior to the work of its critics.

Attachment 1

4 January 1967

Background Survey of Books Concerning the Assassination of President Kennedy

1. (Except where otherwise indicated, the factual data given in paragraphs 1-9 is unclassified.)
Some of the authors of recent books on the assassination of President Kennedy (e.g., Joachim Joesten, Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy; Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment [sic]; Leo Sauvage, The Oswald Affair: An Examination of the Contradictions and Omissions of the Warren Report) had publicly asserted that a conspiracy existed before the Warren Commission finished its investigation. Not surprisingly, they immediately bestirred themselves to show that they were right and that the Commission was wrong. Thanks to the mountain of material published by the Commission, some of it conflicting or misleading when read out of context, they have had little difficulty in uncovering items to substantiate their own theories. They have also in some cases obtained new and divergent testimony from witnesses. And they have usually failed to discuss the refutations of their early claims in the Commission's Report, Appendix XII ("Speculations and Rumors&quot . This Appendix is still a good place to look for material countering the theorists.

2. Some writers appear to have been predisposed to criticism by anti-American, far-left, or Communist sympathies. The British "Who Killed Kennedy Committee" includes some of the most persistent and vocal English critics of the United States, e.g., Michael Foot, Kingsley Martin, Kenneth Tynan, and Bertrand Russell. Joachim Joesten has been publicly revealed as a onetime member of the German Communist Party (KDP); a Gestapo document of 8 November 1937 among the German Foreign Ministry files microfilmed in England and now returned to West German custody shows that his party book was numbered 532315 and dated 12 May 1932. (The originals of these files are now available at the West German Foreign Ministry in Bonn; the copy in the U.S. National Archives may be found under the reference T-120, Serial 4918, frames E2564824. The British Public Records Office should also have a copy.) Joesten's American publisher, Carl Marzani, was once sentence to jail by a federal jury for concealing his Communist Party (CPUSA) membership in order to hold a government job. Available information indicates that Mark Lane was elected Vice Chairman of the New York Council to Abolish the House Un-American Activities Committee on 28 May 1963; he also attended the 8th Congress of the International Association of Democratic Lawyers (an international Communist front organization) in Budapest from 31 March to 5 April 1964, where he expounded his (pre-Report) views on the Kennedy assassination. In his acknowledgments in his book, Lane expresses special thanks to Ralph Schoenman of London "who participated in and supported the work"; Schoenman is of course the expatriate American who has been influencing the aged Bertrand Russell in recent years. (See also para. 10 below on Communist efforts to replay speculation on the assassination.)

3. Another factor has been the financial reward obtainable for sensational books. Mark Lane's Rush to Judgment, published on 13 August 1966, had sold 85,000 copies by early November and the publishers had printed 140,000 copies by that date, in anticipation of sales to come. The 1 January 1967 New York Times Book Review reported the book as at the top of the General category of the best seller list, having been in top position for seven weeks and on the list for 17 weeks. Lane has reportedly appeared on about 175 television and radio programs, and has also given numerous public lectures, all of which serves for advertisement. He has also put together a TV film, and is peddling it to European telecasters; the BBC has purchased rights for a record $45,000. While neither Abraham Zapruder nor William Manchester should be classed with the critics of the Commission we are discussing here, sums paid for the Zapruder film of the assassination ($25,000) and for magazine rights to Manchester's Death of a President ($665,000) indicate the money available for material related to the assassination. Some newspapermen (e.g., Sylvan Fox, The Unanswered Questions About President Kennedy's Assassination; Leo Sauvage, The Oswald Affair) have published accounts cashing in on their journalistic expertise.

4. Aside from political and financial motives, some people have apparently published accounts simply because they were burning to give the world their theory, e.g., Harold Weisberg, in his Whitewash II, Penn Jones, Jr., in Forgive My Grief, and George C. Thomson in The Quest for Truth. Weisberg's book was first published privately, though it is now finally attaining the dignity of commercial publication. Jones' volume was published by the small-town Texas newspaper of which he is the editor, and Thomson's booklet by his own engineering firm. The impact of these books will probably be relatively slight, since their writers will appear to readers to be hysterical or paranoid.

5. A common technique among many of the writers is to raise as many questions as possible, while not bothering to work out all the consequences. Herbert Mitgang has written a parody of this approach (his questions actually refer to Lincoln's assassination) in "A New Inquiry is Needed," New York Times Magazine, 25 December 1966. Mark Lane in particular (who represents himself as Oswald's lawyer) adopts the classic defense attorney's approach of throwing in unrelated details so as to create in the jury's mind a sum of "reasonable doubt." His tendency to wander off into minor details led one observer to comment that whereas a good trial lawyer should have a sure instinct for the jugular vein, Lane's instinct was for the capillaries. His tactics and also his nerve were typified on the occasion when, after getting the Commission to pay his travel expenses back from England, he recounted to that body a sensational (and incredible) story of a Ruby plot, while refusing to name his source. Chief Justice Warren told Lane, "We have every reason to doubt the truthfulness of what you have heretofore told us" Q by the standards of legal etiquette, a very stiff rebuke for an attorney.

6. It should be recognized, however, that another kind of criticism has recently emerged, represented by Edward Jay Epstein's Inquest. Epstein adopts a scholarly tone, and to the casual reader, he presents what appears to be a more coherent, reasoned case than the writers described above. Epstein has caused people like Richard Rovere and Lord Devlin, previously backers of the Commission's Report, to change their minds. The New York Times' daily book reviewer has said that Epstein's work is a "watershed book" which has made it respectable to doubt the Commission's findings. This respectability effect has been enhanced by Life magazine's 25 November 1966 issue, which contains an assertion that there is a "reasonable doubt," as well as a republication of frames from the Zapruder film (owned by Life), and an interview with Governor Connally, who repeats his belief that he was not struck by the same bullet that struck President Kennedy. (Connally does not, however, agree that there should be another investigation.) Epstein himself has published a new article in the December 1966 issue of Esquire, in which he explains away objections to his book. A copy of an early critique of Epstein's views by Fletcher Knebel, published in Look, 12 July 1966, and an unclassified, unofficial analysis (by "Spectator&quot are attached to this dispatch, dealing with specific questions raised by Epstein.

7. Here it should be pointed out that Epstein's competence in research has been greatly exaggerated. Some illustrations are given in the Fletcher Knebel article. As a further specimen, Epstein's book refers (pp. 93-5) to a cropped-down picture of a heavy-set man taken in Mexico City, saying that the Central Intelligence Agency gave it to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on 18 November 1963, and that the Bureau in turn forwarded it to its Dallas office. Actually, affidavits in the published Warren material (vol. XI, pp. 468-70) show that CIA turned the picture over to the FBI on 22 November 1963. (As a matter of interest, Mark Lane's Rush to Judgment claims that the photo was furnished by CIA on the morning of 22 November; the fact is that the FBI flew the photo directly from Mexico City to Dallas immediately after Oswald's arrest, before Oswald's picture had been published, on the chance it might be Oswald. The reason the photo was cropped was that the background revealed the place where it was taken.) Another example: where Epstein reports (p. 41) that a Secret Service interview report was even withheld from the National Archives, this is untrue: an Archives staff member told one of our officers that Epstein came there and asked for the memorandum. He was told that it was there, but was classified. Indeed, the Archives then notified the Secret Service that there had been a request for the document, and the Secret Service declassified it. But by that time, Epstein (whose preface gives the impression of prolonged archival research) had chosen to finish his searches in the Archives, which had only lasted two days, and had left town. Yet Epstein charges that the Commission was over-hasty in its work.

The New York Times daily book reviewer has said that Epstein's work is a "watershed book" which has made it respectable to doubt the Commission's findings. This respectability effect has been enhanced by Life magazines 25 November 1966 issue, which contains an assertion that there is a "reasonable doubt," as well as a republication of frames from the Zapruder film (owned by Life), and an interview with Governor Connally, who repeats his belief that he was not struck by the same bullet that struck President Kennedy.

8. Aside from such failures in research, Epstein and other intellectual critics show symptoms of some of the love of theorizing and lack of common sense and experience displayed by Richard H. Popkin, the author of The Second Oswald. Because Oswald was reported to have been seen in different places at the same time, a phenomenon not surprising in a sensational case where thousands of real or alleged witnesses were interviewed, Popkin, a professor of philosophy, theorizes that there actually were two Oswalds. At this point, theorizing becomes sort of logico-mathematical game; an exercise in permutations and combinations; as Commission attorney Arlen Specter remarked, "Why not make it three Oswalds? Why stop at two?" Nevertheless, aside from his book, Popkin has been able to publish a summary of his views in The New York Review of Books, and there has been replay in the French Nouvel Observateur, in Moscow's New Times, and in Baku's Vyshka. Popkin makes a sensational accusation indirectly, saying that "Western European critics" see Kennedy's assassination as part of a subtle conspiracy attributable to "perhaps even (in rumors I have heard) Kennedy's successor." One Barbara Garson has made the same point in another way by her parody of Shakespeare's "Macbeth" entitled "MacBird," with what was obviously President Kennedy (Ken O Dune) in the role of Duncan, and President Johnson (MacBird) in the role of Macbeth. Miss Garson makes no effort to prove her point; she merely insinuates it. Probably the indirect form of accusation is due to fear of a libel suit.

9. Other books are yet to appear. William Manchester's not-yet-published The Death of a President is at this writing being purged of material personally objectionable to Mrs. Kennedy. There are hopeful signs: Jacob Cohen is writing a book which will appear in 1967 under the title Honest Verdict, defending the Commission report, and one of the Commission attorneys, Wesley J. Liebeler, is also reportedly writing a book, setting forth both sides. But further criticism will no doubt appear; as the Washington Post has pointed out editorially, the recent death of Jack Ruby will probably lead to speculation that he was "silenced" by a conspiracy.

10. The likelihood of further criticism is enhanced by the circumstance that Communist propagandists seem recently to have stepped up their own campaign to discredit the Warren Commission. As already noted, Moscow's New Times reprinted parts of an article by Richard Popkin (21 and 28 September 1966 issues), and it also gave the Swiss edition of Joesten's latest work an extended, laudatory review in its number for 26 October. Izvestiya has also publicized Joesten's book in articles of 18 and 21 October. (In view of this publicity and the Communist background of Joesten and his American publisher, together with Joesten's insistence on pinning the blame on such favorite Communist targets as H.L. Hunt, the FBI and CIA, there seems reason to suspect that Joesten's book and its exploitation are part of a planned Soviet propaganda operation.) Tass, reporting on 5 November on the deposit of autopsy photographs in the National Archives, said that the refusal to give wide public access to them, the disappearance of a number of documents, and the mysterious death of more than 10 people, all make many Americans believe Kennedy was killed as the result of a conspiracy. The radio transmitters of Prague and Warsaw used the anniversary of the assassination to attack the Warren report. The Bulgarian press conducted a campaign on the subject in the second half of October; a Greek Communist newspaper, Avgi, placed the blame on CIA on 20 November. Significantly, the start of this stepped-up campaign coincided with a Soviet demand that the U.S. Embassy in Moscow stop distributing the Russian-language edition of the Warren report; Newsweek commented (12 September) that the Soviets apparently "did not want mere facts to get in their way."

Attachment 2

The Theories of Mr. Epstein by Spectator

A recent critic of the Warren Commission Report, Edward Jay Epstein, has attracted widespread attention by contesting the Report's conclusion that, "although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission," President Kennedy and Governor Connally were probably hit successively by the same bullet, the second of three shots fired. In his book, Inquest, Epstein maintains (1) that if the two men were not hit by the same bullet, there must have been two assassins, and (2) that there is evidence which strongly suggests that the two men were not hit by the same bullet. He suggests that the Commission's conclusions must be viewed as "expressions of political truth," implying that they are not in fact true, but are only a sort of Pablum for the public, Epstein's argument that the two men must either have been shot by one bullet or by two assassins rests on a comparison of the minimum time required to operate the bolt on Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle Q 2.3 seconds Q with the timing of the shots as deduced from a movie of the shooting taken by an amateur photographer, Abraham Zapruder. The frames of the movie serve to time the events in the shooting. The film (along with a slow-motion re-enactment of the shooting made on 24 May 1964 on the basis of the film and other pictures and evidence) tends to show that the President was probably not shot before frame 207, when he came out from beneath the cover of an oak tree, and that the Governor was hit not later than frame 240. If this is correct, then the two men would not have been hit longer than 1.8 seconds apart, since Zapruder's film was taken at a speed of 18.3 frames per second. Since Oswald's rifle could not have fired a second shot within 1.8 seconds, Epstein concludes that the victims must have been shot by separate weapons Q and hence presumably by separate assassins Q unless they were hit by the same bullet. Epstein then argues that there is evidence which contradicts the possibility of a shooting by a single bullet. In his book he refers to Federal Bureau of Investigation reports stemming from FBI men present at the Bethesda autopsy on President Kennedy, according to which there was a wound in the back with no point of exit; this means that the bullet which entered Kennedy's back could not later have hit Connally. This information, Epstein notes, flatly contradicts the official autopsy report accepted by the Commission, according to which the bullet presumably entered Kennedy's body just below the neck and exited through the throat. Epstein also publishes photographs of the backs of Kennedy's shirt and coat, showing bullet holes about six inches below the top of the collar, as well as a rough sketch made at the time of the autopsy; these pictures suggest that the entrance wound in the back was too low to be linked to an exit wound in the throat. In his book, Epstein says that if the FBI statements are correct Q and he indicates his belief that they are Q then the "autopsy findings must have been changed after January 13 [January 13, 1964: the date of the last FBI report stating that the bullet penetrated Kennedy's back for less than a finger-length .] ." In short, he implies that the Commission warped and even forged evidence so as to conceal the fact of a conspiracy. Following the appearance of Epstein's Inquest, it was pointed out that on the morning (November 23rd) after the Bethesda autopsy attended by FBI and Secret Service men, the autopsy doctors learned that a neck wound, obliterated by an emergency tracheostomy performed in Dallas, had been seen by the Dallas doctors. (The tracheostomy had been part of the effort to save Kennedy's life.) The FBI men who had only attended the autopsy on the evening of November 22 naturally did not know about this information from Dallas, which led the autopsy doctors to change their conclusions, finally signed by them on November 24. Also, the Treasury Department (which runs the Secret Service) reported that the autopsy report was only forwarded by the Secret Service to the FBI on December 23, 1963. But in a recent article in Esquire, Epstein notes that the final FBI report was still issued after the Secret Service had sent the FBI the official autopsy, and he claims that the explanation that the FBI was uninformed "begs the question of how a wound below the shoulder became a wound in the back of the neck." He presses for making the autopsy pictures available, a step which the late President's brother has so far steadfastly resisted on the grounds of taste, though they have been made available to qualified official investigators. Let us consider Epstein's arguments in the light of information now available:

1. Epstein's thesis that if the President and the Governor were not hit by the same bullet, there must have been two assassins:

a. Feeling in the Commission was that the two men were probably hit by the same bullet; however, some members evidently felt that the evidence was not conclusive enough to exclude completely the Governor's belief that he and the President were hit separately.
After all, Connally was one of the most important living witnesses. While not likely, it was possible that President Kennedy could have been hit more than 2.3 seconds before Connally. As Arlen Specter, a Commission attorney and a principal adherent of the "one-bullet theory," says, the Zapruder film is two-dimensional and one cannot say exactly when Connally, let alone the President, was hit. The film does not show the President during a crucial period (from about frames 204 to 225) when a sign blocked the view from Zapruder's camera, and before that the figures are distant and rather indistinct. (When Life magazine first published frames from the Zapruder film in its special 1963 Assassination Issue, it believed that the pictures showed Kennedy first hit 74 frames before Governor Connally was struck.) The "earliest possible time" used by Epstein is based on the belief that, for an interval before that time, the view of the car from the Book Depository window was probably blocked by the foliage of an oak tree (from frame 166 to frame 207, with a brief glimpse through the leaves at frame 186). In the words of the Commission's Report, "it is unlikely that the assassin would deliberately have shot [at President Kennedy] with a view obstructed by the oak tree when he was about to have a clear opportunity"; unlikely, but not impossible. Since Epstein is fond of logical terminology, it might be pointed out that he made an illicit transition from probability to certainty in at least one of his premises.

b. Although Governor Connally believed that he and the President were hit separately, he did not testify that he saw the President hit before he was hit himself; he testified that he heard a first shot and started to turn to see what had happened. His testimony (as the Commission's report says) can therefore be reconciled with the supposition that the first shot missed and the second shot hit both men. However, the Commission did not pretend that the two men could not possibly have been hit separately.

c. The Commission also concluded that all the shots were fired from the sixth floor window of the Depository. The location of the wounds is one major basis for this conclusion. In the room behind the Depository window, Oswald's rifle and three cartridge cases were found, and all of the cartridge cases were identified by experts as having been fired by that rifle; no other weapon or cartridge cases were found, and the consensus of the witnesses from the plaza was that there were three shots. If there were other assassins, what happened to their weapons and cartridge cases? How did they escape? Epstein points out that one woman, a Mrs. Walther, not an expert on weapons, thought she saw two men, one with a machine gun, in the window, and that one other witness thought he saw someone else on the sixth floor; this does not sound very convincing, especially when compared with photographs and other witnesses who saw nothing of the kind.

d. The very fact that the Commission did not absolutely rule out the possibility that the victims were shot separately shows that its conclusions were not determined by a preconceived theory. Now, Epstein's thesis is not just his own discovery; he relates that one of the Commission lawyers volunteered to him: "To say that they were hit by separate bullets is synonymous with saying that there were two assassins." This thesis was evidently considered by the Commission. If the thesis were completely valid, and if the Commissioners Q as Epstein charges Q had only been interested in finding "political truth," then the Commission should have flatly adopted the "one-bullet theory," completely rejecting any possibility that the men were hit separately. But while Epstein and the others have a weakness for theorizing, the seven experienced lawyers on the Commission were not committed beforehand to finding either a conspiracy or the absence of one, and they wisely refused to erect a whole logical structure on the slender foundation of a few debatable pieces of evidence.

2. Epstein's thesis that either the FBI's reports (that the bullet entering the President's back did not exit) were wrong, or the official autopsy report was falsified. a. Epstein prefers to believe that the FBI reports are accurate (otherwise, he says, "doubt is cast on the accuracy of the FBI's entire investigation&quot and that the official autopsy report was falsified. Now, as noted above, it has emerged since Inquest was written that the FBI witnesses to the autopsy did not know about the information of a throat wound, obtained from Dallas, and that the doctors' autopsy report was not forwarded to the FBI until December 23, 1963. True, this date preceded the date of the FBI's Supplemental Report, January 13, 1964, and that Supplemental Report did not refer to the doctors' report, following instead the version of the earlier FBI reports. But on November 25, 1966, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover explained that when the FBI submitted its January 13 report, it knew that the Commission would weigh its evidence together with that of other agencies, and it was not incumbent on the FBI to argue the merits of its own version as opposed to that of the doctors. When writing reports for outside use, experienced officials are always cautious about criticizing or even discussing the products of other agencies. (If one is skeptical about this explanation, it would still be much easier to believe that the author(s) of the Supplemental Report had somehow overlooked or not received the autopsy report than to suppose that that report was falsified months after the event. Epstein thinks the Commission staff overlooked Mrs. Walther's report mentioned above, yet he does not consider the possibility that the doctors' autopsy report did not actually reach the desk of the individuals who prepared the Supplemental Report until after they had written Q perhaps well before January 13 Q the draft of page 2 of that report. Such an occurrence would by no means justify a general distrust of the FBI's "entire investigation.&quot b. With regard to the holes in the shirt and coat, their location can be readily explained by supposing that the President was waving to the crowd, an act which would automatically raise the back of his clothing. And in fact, photographs show the President was waving just before he was shot. c. As to the location of the hole in the President's back or shoulder, the autopsy films have recently been placed in the National Archives, and were viewed in November 1966 by two of the autopsy directors, who... [The last page released ends here.]

Dispatch To: Chiefs, Certain Stations and Bases From: Chief, Subject:

Warren Commission Report: Article on the Investigation Conducted by District Attorney Garrison

Date: 19 July 1968

1. We are forwarding herewith a reprint of the article "A Reporter At Large: Garrison", published in THE NEW YORKER, 13 July, 1968. It was written by Edward Jay Epstein, himself author of a book ("Inquest&quot , critical of the Warren Commission Report.

2. The wide-spread campaign of adverse criticism of the U.S., most recently again provoked by the assassination of Senator Robert Kennedy, appears to have revived foreign interest in the assassination of his brother, the late President Kennedy, too. The forthcoming trial of Sirhan, accused of the murder of Senator Kennedy, can be expected to cause a new wave of criticism and suspicion against the United States, claiming once more the existence of a sinister "political murder conspiracy". We are sending you the attached article Q based either on first-hand observation by the author or on other, identified sources Q since it deals with the continuing investigation, conducted by District Attorney Garrison of New Orleans, La. That investigation tends to keep alive speculations about the death of President Kennedy, an alleged "conspiracy", and about the possible involvement of Federal agencies, notably the FBI and CIA.

3. The article is not meant for reprinting in any media. It is forwarded primarily for your information and for the information of all Station personnel concerned. If the Garrison investigation should be cited in your area in the context of renewed anti-U.S. attacks, you may use the article to brief interested contacts, especially government and other political leaders, and to demonstrate to assets (which you may assign to counter such attacks) that there is no hard evidence of any such conspiracy. In this context, assets may have to explain to their audiences certain basic facts about the U.S. judicial system, its separation of state and federal courts and the fact that judges and district attorneys in the states are usually elected, not appointed: consequently, D.A. Garrison can continue in office as long as his constituents re-elect him. Even if your assets have to discuss this in order to refute Q or at least weaken Q anti-U.S. propaganda of sufficiently serious impact, any personal attacks upon Garrison (or any other public personality in the U.S.) must be strictly avoided.

Source (via Internet Archive): chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://ia800705.us.archive.org/30/items/COUNTERINGCRITICISMOFTHEWARRENREPORT/COUNTERING%20CRITICISM%20OF%20THE%20WARREN%20REPORT.pdf

NYT coverage: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/cable-sought-to-discredit-critics-of-warren-report.html



“No one reads anymore.” -- Allen Dulles, dismissing the possibility the public would actually examine and analyze the Warren Report

gab13by13

(32,321 posts)
13. I read interviews from Crook's classmates,
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:38 AM
Jul 2024

Some said he was bullied, but some said he was not. So I do not assume he was bullied or wasn't.

Why is everyone dismissing a political motive?

I am not speculating anything, my question was if a motive was found that hurt TSF's election chances would Chris Wray release it?

Saying there was no clear cut motive also doesn't cut it, because I don't believe the kid was mentally ill. but I could be wrong.

WhiteTara

(31,260 posts)
14. The local news station noted a cell phone and transmitter
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:39 AM
Jul 2024

next to the body of the shooter. They got pictures which I have not seen. But I'm not sure this was a lone wolf type thing.

Tommy Carcetti

(44,498 posts)
15. Yes but it is 2024.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:46 AM
Jul 2024

The majority of people have a phone on them when they are out in public.

Ron Green

(9,870 posts)
18. I'm surprised it has taken this long for someone to take a shot at the guy.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 11:19 AM
Jul 2024

In all my rather long life, I’ve never heard so many people express thoughts about killing a public figure as I have about Trump. Ordinary people, mostly good liberals, the kind of people most of us have as friends who, when the political realities of the 21st Century are pressing upon an otherwise pleasant round of beers, finally assert that they might actually trade their life for that of this supremely evil person.

So here comes a kid who’s been bullied, sees these same political realities but without many decades of perspective. He does, however, have easy access to a rifle. And the guy’s coming to his neighborhood.

And people are still mystified by a motive?

Ron Green

(9,870 posts)
49. I think we were hanging out with different groups of people.
Thu Jul 18, 2024, 01:06 AM
Jul 2024

I never drank with anybody wishing violence on Obama.

misanthrope

(9,495 posts)
50. I didn't say I was drinking with them
Thu Jul 18, 2024, 01:17 AM
Jul 2024

I was responding to your opening sentence: "In all my rather long life, I’ve never heard so many people express thoughts about killing a public figure as I have about Trump."

I am in Alabama. The white-hot hatred for Obama was abundant down here. In the asides I heard from acquaintances who assumed because i was white that I was a conservative. On the protest signs at the Tea Party rallies I covered. The longer he remained in office, the worse it grew.

I have often wondered how many plots were brewing out there in that era but we just never heard about them.

Captain Zero

(8,905 posts)
51. Yeah, Ive heard people say it too and when I have responded to them I said
Thu Jul 18, 2024, 02:24 AM
Jul 2024

It will be one of his own followers. He has them so riled up one will turn on him.
I liken him some to the guy who shot John Lennon. Chapman was a FAN of Lennon,
but also crazy and obsessed. It may not have shown with this guy but he was a trump fan and probably grew increasingly obsessed and crazy to the point like with Chapman he thought if he killed trump he would assume all of trumps celebrity and notoriety. Chapman thought he would garner Lennons fame and fans adulation. It's weird, psycho, not a logical motive, but his mind was warped by the maga movement and all the violent rhetoric. This was his best effort to fit in after all the bullying. After all the bullying he suffered from maga, he may have come to see that it originated with trump, because trump is a bully.
--------------------
So, what I see for this guy is bullied and ignored. over and over again.
No one would let him into any group and his most likely fit was maga but even the gun club said no.

So, he thinks, I'll show them, and he did. Almost.

gab13by13

(32,321 posts)
30. I feel the need to repeat this,
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 03:15 PM
Jul 2024

I read an article where Crook's classmates were interviewed, and it was not clear to me that he was in fact bullied.

It is starting to become common knowledge that he was bullied, why? Will that be the motive?

What about that gun group shirt he was wearing. When I go to sporting events I wear a shirt that shows why I am there. Was it just a coincidence that Crooks chose to wear that shirt to the shooting? My guess is no.

ArnoldLayne

(2,263 posts)
31. This kind of reminds me of the song by Peter Gabriel-Family Snapshot.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 03:16 PM
Jul 2024

If someone could post a link to that song with lyrics from YouTube I would appreciate it.

ArnoldLayne

(2,263 posts)
39. Thank you for posting that very chilling but wonderful song by the musical genius of Peter Gabriel.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 06:25 PM
Jul 2024

keep_left

(3,210 posts)
44. You're welcome. It's a fan favorite.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 08:52 PM
Jul 2024

A few years ago, Gabriel went out on tour without an album to promote, and he had fans vote on what he should play. "Family Snapshot" was either #1 or #2 as I recall.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Snapshot

AntiFascist

(13,751 posts)
36. Why aren't Dems all over this in the media??
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 03:59 PM
Jul 2024

Not so much his direct motive, but what we already know:

He was using his father's AR-15 in an open carry state. He was wearing a t-shirt provided by a Youtube channel fetishizing gun ownership, teaching people how to execute the most damage possible on human beings, and how to blow things up. This is exactly what the gunman was attempting to do! To make things worse (for Trump lovers) he was a registered Republican. Even if he was a closet progressive, Republican leadership is no less a victim of their own gun rights policies and hubris.

AntiFascist

(13,751 posts)
46. HUH??
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 09:52 PM
Jul 2024

Dems should be pushing the anti-AR15 legislation that the GOP is countering because of 2nd Amendment (revolution against the deep state) concerns. Instead we are being distracted by all the other GOP BS. Should AR-15s be allowed to use against the immigrant violent crime threat?

Skittles

(171,714 posts)
47. HUH??
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:00 PM
Jul 2024

I'm just saying if the shooter was an immigrant the reaction from repukes would be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

AntiFascist

(13,751 posts)
48. That explains the Republican point of view...
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 10:47 PM
Jul 2024

what I'm saying is that Democrats could be running with this and saying that the assassination attempt is the result of loose regulations over ASSAULT WEAPONS that are only intended to inflict fatal harm on human beings.

OneGrassRoot

(23,953 posts)
40. Aren't various congressional committees going to investigate all aspects of the incident? n/t
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 06:37 PM
Jul 2024

LeftInTX

(34,295 posts)
43. He sounds mentally ill. Also searched for the royal family.
Wed Jul 17, 2024, 06:55 PM
Jul 2024
Gunman’s Phone Had Details About Both Trump and Biden, F.B.I. Officials Say

F.B.I. officials told members of Congress on Wednesday that the gunman who tried to kill former President Donald J. Trump used his cellphone to search for images of Mr. Trump and President Biden, along with a wide array of public figures.

According to a person on conference calls with lawmakers, the gunman, Matthew Crooks, also searched for dates of Mr. Trump’s appearances and the Democratic National Convention.

The disclosures, during private briefings to lawmakers in the House and Senate, offered more detail about a gunman with no criminal history.

The F.B.I., which has been sifting through Mr. Crooks’s possessions for clues about his motive, including two phones, has not found any indication that Mr. Crooks had strong partisan political views, or co-conspirators or connections to foreign actors.

https://archive.ph/9KF3J
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