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[bigtree]

This message was self-deleted by its author (bigtree) on Sun Jul 21, 2024, 02:37 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[choie]

1. That was powerful, Bigtree

and I'm with you 100%

[gay texan]

2. Bingo.

All of this is damn disapointing. It appears some people in our party AND on DU dont realize what the hell is at stake here.

Im fighting like hell for biden. Ill be fucking damned if someone is going to force me back in the closet.

[Ferrets are Cool]

3. Thank you for posting. Roland Martin had a panel today that spoke for me AND landed a bombshell

I really need to make a stand alone post about it.

&t=1816s

[IzzaNuDay]

51. this is what folks don't understand

Forcing Biden to step down would be a significant upheaval all across the board. These democrat legislators aren’t thinking this through!

[Ferrets are Cool]

86. Precisely

[Hekate]

4. As a melanin-deficient old lady I say: thank you for speaking up, bigtree. ...

DU is in a horrible state right now — it’s not just that we are being swarmed (and we are) but that many DUers are being sucked into the vortex and agreeing with stuff I hope they will blush at when they regain their senses.

One question they should be asking themselves is: who will this community lose?

[MontanaMama]

7. +1.

[MontanaMama]

10. Bigtree isn't wrong.

[Mister Ed]

24. One thing I've tried to bear in mind throughout my adult life:

Any time the topic is race and the speaker is Black, it's time for me to shut up, sit up, and pay attention. That's because I know the speaker has a wealth of hard-won expertise. Expertise of a sort that I'll never possess.

I'd be a fool indeed if I were to respond to such a long, detailed, heartfelt and well-articulated statement as this OP by just flatly and condescendingly declaring, "You are wrong."

[wryter2000]

30. You said a mouthful

"You are very wrong" is a statement utterly without substance.

And I'm with you about shutting my mouth and opening my ears when a black person speaks about racism.

[GoreWon2000]

33. You don't think it's wrong to disenfranchise 14 million dem party primary voters?

Where were you in 2000 when 5 GOP SCOTUS judges disenfranchised our whole country? You think it's ok for a few elitists to think they can throw out millions of votes? Your view is called dictatorship, not democracy.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

67. Tried to make that point to the person you're responding to on another thread

Individual was asking us to be civil. I responded it's hard to be civil to someone who wants to cancel your vote.

[GoreWon2000]

69. Thank you. Well said.

[AllyCat]

61. Care to elaborate?

[BootinUp]

18. Here is one thing I notice and I don't know if this is helpful, but I am going to try.

I notice that the Black community has tighter relationships with our elected Reps. There is a trust there and when it is right, the politician gets it, and the community gets it. While the dynamic is not unique to the Black community, I do think it is more necessary in order to give them hope.

I don't think you can swap in another candidate that they have little knowledge of or history working with, at the last minute. That is a recipe for lost hope.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

23. What about Kamala?

[BootinUp]

25. Every day that goes by without

a unified party behind the candidates is bad. And the discord in the press is going to kill us. And who knows what will even happen if Joe steps down. This has never been done.

[Tweedy]

32. She is the vice president

and she is ready to be president if necessary.

What more do we need?

I burn at the sight of sun and I don’t like the notion that anyone but voters would pick our nominee.

I think we should let the GOP own their attempts to disenfranchise millions of us.
We should not join them in the effort.

[AllyCat]

62. She's great. She is well-positioned to succeed Biden should he be no longer able to serve.

They work well together.

[B.See]

84. Hey, the way I see it, we get a twofer - Biden AND Kamala. As opposed to

an addle-brained, two-bit grifter and convicted felon con-man who wants to be king.

[Solly Mack]

6. K&R

[jmbar2]

8. I can feel your exhaustion and disgust

Ironically, when I am feeling overwhelmed by all this shit, I think of the civil rights movement, and all they sacrificed to make us live up to the promises of democracy. I have a pic of John Lewis being beaten above my desk to remind myself to not surrender to hopelessness.

African Americans have contributed more to the realization of democracy and human dignity, and at greater cost, than most people can imagine. I am profoundly grateful, and inspired by that sacrifice.

We've still got a ways to go, but there are more folks on the path with you than you may realize.

Peace my friend.

[Eko]

9. Bam!

What was my vote for?

[ms liberty]

11. Yes. White and primarily male. I don't like to say it, there it is

I'm an old southern white chick now, and I notice these things. White tech bros, media pundits (Mark Halperin, you're on my list and I see you over there) and wealthy donors, apparently they think they should count more than the rest of us, meaning the primary voters..
Joe's had the backs of women and PoC, time for us to have his!

[Bettie]

39. Middle aged midwestern white chick here

and I agree completely.

[edisdead]

68. Middleagedwhitedudehere

Andyou and Big Tree are spot on

[hlthe2b]

12. Totally agree.and this is incredibly consequential...

They are letting down the full gamut of Biden voters as though none of us matters...

[DaBronx]

13. Nailed it

I feel like I just read a preview from a book that will be written on this grim chapter in our
History. You have spelled it out loud and clear.
Let’s hope we all can still rise up. The alternative isn’t so good.

[BootinUp]

14. The reps that are sticking their lovely noses in to the Presidential race, have no authority, no right.

If they are having donor problems I feel for them, I really do, AND for their constituents. Now how about working on that problem in a constructive way. They literally took a wrecking ball to our nominee at the bidding of some very misguided folks.

[Mister Ed]

15. Thank you. Thank you for laying that out.

Politicians and posters alike should read your words very carefully, and make sure they understand them.

[Sympthsical]

16. This feels very cynical

JMO. The Democratic Party's rules for nomination, delegates, and the convention are just like Tyranny, Jim Crow, and Reconstruction?

The Democratic Party. Just like the most racist eras of the South?

The Democratic Party?

It is definitely a swing. I almost admire that. It's probably best to get it out now.

I hope there's a cooling off period after the resolution of all this, whatever that may be.

[mopinko]

19. i completely agree. they want to cut the heart out of the party.

it’s not just the votes. it’s the door knocking, the petition passing, the phone banking, the voter registrars. hell, the election judges.
joe got 81m votes in 2020. he got 17m in the primaries. that’s the fucking CORE of the party.

these assholes piss on that at their peril. they’re imperiling their own races. our chance for a majority that can right this ship.
and for what? for money. dirty money that comes w strings. strings that get pulled, and fucking cowards dance. and stab a good man in the back.

i hope the anger i see growing doesnt change a vote THIS time. but i hope every 1 of those fuckers gets primaried next time. hopefully by a righteously pissed off sister.
and i hope every 1 of these fuckers get put on the committee to clean up the dog shit on the d.c. streets. cuz they sure cant b trusted on important committees.

i’m an old ww, but i’m irish, so i never back down from a fight. and fuckers, i’m fighting.
the rest of ya can sit home and clutch your pearls and day drink for all i care.

[mopinko]

20. ps- i must say, i dont see much of this fire on du these days.

which is y i spend more time in the xitter these days. cuz this fire is burning there.

[waterwatcher123]

21. You are spot on - they have no right to invalidate 14 million votes cast in the primary.

How is it possible to say this election is about the future of democracy while simultaneously trying to thwart the will of 14 million people who voted in the Democratic primary?

[BlueCheeseAgain]

22. I'm not anti Biden, but this is over the top.

Polls don't show any appreciable difference between white and black Democrats on this issue.

Are you really saying people like Pelosi, Schumer, and other Dem leaders are basically George Wallace?

People who agree with the actual majority opinion of Dem voters have been called corrupt, treasonous, and secret Trump supporters. I suppose we may as well call them racists too.

[GoreWon2000]

38. You think throwing out 14 million dem party primary votes is ok?

I guess you don't see the hypocrisy of claiming to be the party that supports voting rights at the same time they're trying to throw out the votes of 14 million dem party primary voters? You also need to understand that the media is pro tRump/maga GOP and that's clearly having an effect. Do you think there would've been a peep out of the maga crowd if it was tRump who had the bad debate? Not a chance. The maga crowd has their eye on the prize which is the ending of American democracy. The dem elites who want to throw out our votes are doing their dirty work for them. The maga crowd can just sit back with glee and watch the dem elites destroy our party.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

47. I'm not saying it's okay or not okay.

But I don't think it's racist.

[GoreWon2000]

53. The demographics of who's involved tell a different story

Most of the participants in this effort to take away the votes of 14 million dem party primary voters are wealthy, privileged white anglo saxon men. I think it's pretty stunning that you don't have a problem with 14 million votes being thrown out.

[littlemissmartypants]

56. The oligarchy is alive and well within the Democratic Party punditry.

Apparently.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

63. Schumer is a WASP?

Nancy Pelosi is a man?

Raul Grijalva is white?

Things I learned today.

[GoreWon2000]

66. You're ignoring the total group demographics which overall is white, male

In addition, Schumer and Pelosi haven't said publicly that they want Biden to step down like the rest of the mostly white, male group has. You seem to want to be in denial about where this anti democracy attack is coming from and you also think it's ok to throw out 14 million votes. No elections is called dictatorship..

[BlueCheeseAgain]

71. I can see this isn't going anywhere.

But I resent being called a racist. You can end a lot of arguments that way, but you're not going to convince anyone.

[GoreWon2000]

74. You're the one ignoring the facts

The fact is most of the anti democracy dem elites trying to throw out 14 million dem party primary votes are white men. You also ignore the fact that neither Schumer or Pelosi have said publicly that Biden should drop out.

[littlemissmartypants]

55. You aren't a white male are you?

[BlueCheeseAgain]

58. No, I'm not.

Not sure why you would make that assumption.

[littlemissmartypants]

72. I wasn't. I was just testing my own assumption. Because I didn't think you were.

Sorry. ❤️

[BlueCheeseAgain]

73. Well, I apologize for misunderstanding.

I guess I was too quick to assume your intention. I'm sorry about that.

[AllyCat]

64. Polls are not votes.

Also, they have been garbage for years.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

70. Correct

500 people polled vs 14 million votes.

[wryter2000]

26. This white woman

Is totally with you.

[ShazzieB]

44. This white woman

Is also with you.

[OAITW r.2.0]

27. They are letting us all down.

I am bothered, particularly, with Adam Schiff. I admired his chops during the Impeachments, supported him for CA senate....but this? I do not get. Seems like Adam has changed lanes and I don't understand why.

[littlemissmartypants]

57. I never got where he was coming from honestly. His reactions and visage

Always seemed contrived to me during the portions of the J6 proceedings that I watched.

If Granny was still alive she might have said that he looked like he had a corn cob up his....you know....

[PortTack]

28. Not me! My fingers tapped all day, making a donation, calling, and posting here! I'm with you..I'm with JRB!

[duncang]

29. White guy here.

I’m ticked off also. Back room deals after the voters have spoken sounds like something that would have happened years ago.

[greatauntoftriplets]

31. Terrific rant.

It was needed.

[liberalmuse]

34. Thank you.

I’m not a person of color but my heart is breaking. Being disenfranchised of something you consider precious is soul crushing. I truly believe women of color have saved our collective asses many times over just the past few years. We need everyone, but especially the passion and drive of black voters, black women who get things done.

I’ve typed a lot of words today but none hit like yours. We can’t allow them to do this. I’m contacting all my reps running in the primary and if they don’t vocalize support for Biden/Harris I will leave that mark blank by their names. Everyone who feels they’re being disenfranchised should do the same.

[PatSeg]

35. Thanks again Bigtree

You're on a roll today!

[valleyrogue]

36. He is not going to be replaced. He will be re-elected, and I say handily.

No way does Trump win this. He doesn't have the support he had four years ago, eight years ago.

As for DU, trash the whiny threads and put the worry warts on ignore. So far I have over 100 posters on ignore. After the election, most of them will be unignored.

To do it works like a charm.

[Hope22]

37. This!

I can’t believe what we are witnessing! Beyond words!

[blm]

40. Valid!

[Ellen Forradalom]

41. It is absolutely that serious

I’m livid. I’m a California voter and I left a strongly -worded message with Adam Schiff’s office reminding him what a primary is and how it works. How dare he propose to nullify my vote and every other vote cast in the primaries.

[Abolishinist]

42. "black Americans are not the wards of the Democratic party"

And as a white American, neither am I.

Glad we got that settled!

[onecaliberal]

43. I have felt the same from the beginning: so many willing to give it up.

[PatrickforB]

45. Nice post. And quite true. Plenty of voters on here (I'm white) voted for Biden/Harris in the primary.

Biden's our guy and we all need to get behind him.

He has been a transformational president. And Harris is fine. Honestly I never even thought of this as a panic move by some white politicians to block Harris, but it doesn't surprise me.

Harris will be fine in the Oval Office. Just like Biden is now.

[GoreWon2000]

46. Bravo! So eloquently well said!

I 100% agree with everything you've said. It looks to me that those who favor disenfranchisement have never had to fight for their right to vote. It's people of color and women who are particularly objecting to this disenfranchisement because we've had to fight long, hard battles for our right to vote so we value and take it much more seriously.
I can't help but notice that this 2024 disenfranchisement effort by dem elites is following directly in the footsteps of the GOP SCOTUS disenfranchisement of our entire country in 2000 when they stopped the legal Florida vote count in a raw power grab order to install their personally preferred candidate in the White House.. A post election analysis of the several hundred thousand still uncounted Florida votes done by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights found that most of those uncounted votes are the votes of low income, African-American women and they're located in the most heavily democratic voting counties in Florida. The 2000 disenfranchisement is still damaging our country today. SCOTUS judge Samuel Alito is exhibit A.
The dem party elites have a very mistaken view that they can do as they please and take the votes of the dem party base as in people of color, women, LGBTQ+ for granted. Big mistake on their part. They're not as politically smart as they think they are. The dem party base is so much smarter and more politically savvy.

[johnnyplankton]

48. I'm sorry bitree, but I'm not sure the Biden I voted for in the primary is the guy I'm seeing today

I think it has far more to do with what people who are close to Biden are seeing, rather than dissing black folks.

[diane in sf]

49. Letting my white community/all of us down.

[littlemissmartypants]

50. HEAR!! HEAR!! ❤️

[JohnSJ]

52. Not just African Americans.

[maxsolomon]

54. I'm not Anti-Biden - he's fully capable of doing the job.

But I can see what's coming.

My impression is that there are 2 types of DUers right now:
1. 100% keep Biden.
2. Biden has done a great job but since he is behind in the swing-state polls I don't know if he can beat that monster again, and if the Party leaders feel the same then let's throw a Hail Mary pass and salvage what we can.

I don't perceive malice here. I don't see a lot of "Anti-Biden" on DU. I see speculation, I see strategizing. I see this off DU too - everyone's trying to see a way forward on FB, in my texts, in my face-to-face discussions.

This is party politics - the only party we've got, the only way we have to fight the relentless, horrible Right and the literal monster who's conned their party into obeisance.

If it comes to an open Convention, Black delegates should (and can) impose their will on the nominations. If it puts Harris at the top of the ticket, I'm 100% in favor.

[C Moon]

59. Biden is being decisive, some of the Democratic Party leaders are being spineless and confused.

I'd rather go with the decisive person.
Plus, how in the hell will they convince people to know and vote for someone in 4 short months.
It's idiotic, and probably the most inane decision ever displayed before a major election.

[BaronChocula]

60. Same shit, different election

I recall back to when I could remember that it always seemed that white voters mattered more, not only to Republicans, but to white Democrats too. Even as late as 2020 there were PRIMARY candidates I respect today (Klobuchar, Buttigeig) boasting in debates their ability to appeal to trump (white) voters. It was so disheartening. These ordinarily keen people couldn't overcome their American DNA by trying to appeal first to white voters. I would say I was sickened, but I was used to it.

I used to put Joe Biden in that category but he proved to be a swift learner in 2020. In addition to keeping his hands to himself, he (with the help of the venerable James Clyburn) leaned into the base and now he can brag that he's placed more black women on the federal bench than anyone else. He also had the first black female elected vice president elected alongside him, who might be what's driving the fear among the Peter Welches and Adam Schiffs. I can't say what exactly is on their mind, but I know they have not presented any plan on how to move forward with a winning ticket should Biden/Harris step down.

To me (and Allan Lichtman) the data does not look as dire as the reaction. It's that the media is only concentrating on the negatives of one candidate and not the other's. It makes it look like only one candidate has negatives, even to people who have been around and should know better. One morning I'm just going roll out of bed and throw up if this continues.

[ananda]

65. i wonder how many are Putin/GOP trolls.

...

[Trust_Reality]

82. Me too.

There is some divisive stuff going around. I say beware.

[dchill]

75. This 72-year-old white guy agrees with you...

...100%. I, and 14 million others, voted for Joe Biden in the primary. He won the delegates. He is, once again, the nominee. As Democrats, we should be particularly dedicated to following the rules - as laid out by our party - that SOME of the party leadership are now advocating may not necessarily be needed. THEY ARE WEAKING THE CANDIDATE AND THE PARTY. The candidate who, by the way, is the best President in my lifetime. It is nothing but heresy.

[h2ebits]

76. YES!!

I'm not black but I am a woman. You are speaking the truth for all of us.

[Smackdown2019]

77. There are no Anti-Biden people here

There are no anti-biden people here, just people that feel we must stop Hitler from taking this country down again and some here feel that Biden lost his good years to stop Hitler. There are 150 million people that could run for President and yet we are doing 2020 race again.

[stage left]

78. I'm a white woman from South Carolina

and I'm with you, too. Righteous rant!

[wss2001]

79. Damn Right

Big wig Democrats are undermining small d democracy. We are the party of the means don’t justify the ends. Trump is a threat but selling our people out isn’t the solution. We need to get behind Biden. It’s too late for anything else.

[krawhitham]

80. K&R

[Trust_Reality]

81. I'm an old white guy. I voted for Biden and Harris.

Biden has done a fantastic job. Harris has been under the radar, but apparently doing a fine job. I love seeing her campaign stronger and more actively. She is good. I also remember well what a fantastic senator she was. My wife and I were sad to lose her from the Senate. Now, she needs to be in the White House. She is smart, skilled, and talented. She has been right in the middle of everything, at least that is my impression. Surely Biden has served as a mentor to her making her well prepared.

My view of reality is that if Biden does not win in November, it is a total disaster for our country, all of us! Seeing the Party in charge at this point in the process is definitely frustrating. At this point we no longer have much of a say. That is the reality. All I can do is take a deep breath and hope for the best. AND, be kind, understand and respectful toward all of my fellow Democrats. When defenders of Biden follow his lead to fight back, even showing anger or hostility, it is very very sad. We are all on the same side.

I have difficulty relating to the idea that if he needs to let someone else take the reigns in order to increase our chances of winning in November, then my primary vote is somehow being discounted. Ageing happens. I guarantee it. I'm 80. I'm healthy. I'm doing well. That does not keep me from being 80 and less functional that when I was 59 (Kamala's age).

I will admit one thing. If some white guy were to get the reigns, rather than Kamala, that would indeed make it an insult. Even so, if we can save democracy, then I can cope with a slap in the face.

I decided in 2020 that Black women know who to vote for. If Biden steps aside, I hope it is Kamala they pick. But who am I to say?

Let's be realistic. Let's be kind. One way or another, let's do this -- save democracy!

[JohnSJ]

83. They are letting everyone down who voted for President Biden in the primaries

[BumRushDaShow]

85. Big K&R and at least this was exposed

"Saving democracy" is not just a slogan but is a concept and series of actions that must be universally applied. I expect this is being generated by a mouthy and loud subset as this time of year, many elected officials and others are off on junkets and haven't chimed in if they even feel they need to. There are others who see the games being played and refuse to participate.

The delegates were elected by the people and many have come out to say they have no intention of changing what they were elected to do.

Thank you bigtree for speaking for many of us!

[Martin Eden]

87. We are all anti-Trump and pro- win this election

Another Trump presidency would be devasting to EVERY community -- even MAGATs and greedy rich "conservatives" in the long run.

I voted for Joe Biden in the primary and am NOT in favor of pressuring him to drop out of this race. I think the campaign to beat Trump would be in a much better place if Democrats had rallied around our president and gone after Trump, and the media for their unfair and unbalaced coverage of the "debate." Trump's cavalcade of egregious easily disprovable LIES should have been the bigger story.

Having said all that, I wish Joe had not decided to run for a 2nd term at the end of which he will be 86 years old. I think an open primary with all the rising stars in the Democratic Party would have generated a lot of enthusiasm and attracted more voters to the primary and to the general election.

We really didn't have much of a choice in the primary. Dean Phillips? RFK Jr? Not very diverse at all, except for the nutcase disgrace to the Kennedy legacy.

At this point I still think our best bet is to rally around our president, but politics is not my profession and I could be wrong.

Respectfully,
Martin

[Pacifist Patriot]

88. Enthusiastically K&R!!!

[Tom Rinaldo]

89. I suspect the vast majority of those who now question whether Biden should remain our nominee

voted for Biden in the primary themselves. Does that mean they are trying to disenfranchise themselves?

[bigtree]

90. you suspect?

...with that and a handful of beans you can buy Jack's old cow.

[Tom Rinaldo]

91. Do you suspect that they didn't?

I don't recall Dean Phillips winning many endorsements. Those who voted non committed mostly were protesting Biden's stance regarding Gaza. I don't remember seeing a single piece of reporting in either mainstream or movement press of anyone other than Dean Phillips or Marianne Williamson advocating for replacing Biden as our Presidential nominee during the primaries. Joe Biden won millions of votes from people like me who, prior to the Presidential debate, had little reason to even question whether he should be our nominee.

[bigtree]

92. I'm not playing this with you

...I'm not debating what you suspect.

I'll just take you at your word that you suspect this.

Maybe you should write an essay on that.

I do think it's interesting how much this suspicion thing tracks with the rumored and hyped narrative that Biden critics are using to spread doubt about his candidacy.

Neither come with proof of anything except the fact of the projections and who is making and spreading them around.

That's my last word on this.

[bigtree]

93. kick