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This message was self-deleted by its author (BrentWil) on Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:40 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.
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Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)
mercuryblues
(16,413 posts)and rape are not on equal ground, not even close. In the role playing scenerio, the woman chooses the partner.
I am willing to bet that there is also a safe word she can use If she feels the partner is going to far. Those things don't happen in rape. The rape victims that I know didn't have a choice at all on who, when or where the rapist raped her. The rapist didn't even listen to them at all when they begged him not to and screamed NO.
Nice try to for the OP minimizing rape into women fantasize about it, so some rapes are legit! NOT. I wish he would do the right thing and self-delete the OP. We'll see how sensitive he is towards women being brutalized. We'll see if he has an Aha moment and realizes that OP's like this one are not even helpful in a serious discussion of rape. We'll see if is sensitive enough to realize that there are women on this board that have been raped and this type of title and OP are incredibly hurtful. Or we'll see if he is just another rape apologist and jerk.
I suspect the latter, but I would like to be proven wrong.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)To me it is simply a means to talk about underlying human nature and the complexity of human sexuality and psychology. That said, multiple people have said this was hurtful to them, do I will self delect.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)When something becomes so common, it happens to a quarter million women a year..
Dunno, a society that tolerates that is probably going to have some 'issues'.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)"rape fantasy" isn't about wanting to be raped. It's about being the object of uncontrollable desire, and freed from the moral strictures governing sexual behaviour by lack of agency. As to whether it's okay for a couple to role play, the answer is "yes", what consenting adults do is their own business (the keyword being "consenting"
, but it should follow the "safe, sane and consensual" guidelines (safe word, etc).
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Loss of control and power can be part of it also.
But yes, "safe,sane and consensual"
tama
(9,137 posts)can be both very frightening and rewarding, it is central issue in many spiritual practices ("leap of faith" etc.) and of course manifests in various ways in sexuality.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)What the hell do rape fantasies have to do with rape? How grotesque that with all the threads about rape it's rape fantasies that you find interesting.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)Thanks to MRAs and the manosphere in general, pretty much any conversation about rape will attract this kind of shit.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Do you just put "man" in front of something anytime you want to turn it into a negative?
What does that say about the way you think? (rhetorical question, don't bother answering)
BTW, please get back to me when you can back up your claim about two types of rape in Japan. Sad that you threw it out there and then can't back it up, won't apologize for making shit up and, in the case that there IS something to it, you won't share and educate.
None of those reflect well on you.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)is hardly surprising at this point.
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/09/03/the-manosphere/
What is sad is that you apparently have no problem demonstrating your lack of awareness over and over and over again.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)A simple yes or no would suffice.
Maybe you could "mainsplain" to me what you mean.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)dunno if you didn't bother reading it or didn't understand it, and I sincerely do not care which it is.
Good luck with your derailing.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)There are not two types of rape in Japan as you suggest. You conflated what one academic dreamed up as a concept into an entire legal division.
Absolutely made up, absolutely.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)This is very entertaining, but I gotta sleep.
It's true what they say, denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You made it up. There are not two types of rape in Japan.
You got confused and won't admit it. The reason you probably got confused is because they use two Japanese words and you mistakenly thought they were actual legal terms or something instead of just normal Japanese words.
tsuujo or 通常 means "normal" and fushizen or 不自然 means "unnatural". They are apparently terms that one academic decided to adopt in order to illustrate how the academic thought that people divide in their minds the types of rape that exist, much like in America, people have the term "date rape" but that doesn't have any affect on the legal definition of rape.
You are wrong and are just too stubborn to admit it. I would be embarrassed at this point if I was caught trying to smear an entire country and then was caught by someone who lives there. Shame shame shame on you.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I am familiar with the two made up terms. They demonstrate a profound disgust for men and are sexist crap. What else do I need to know about them?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)when the rest of the world doesn't use them. Have fun with that.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)1. Mansplain
To explain in a patronizing manner, assuming total ignorance on the part of those listening. The mansplainer is often shocked and hurt when their mansplanation is not taken as absolute fact, criticized or even rejected altogether.
--Yeah, that's not sexist or insulting in the least.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)appearing to notice that they're doing it at all. Often it's the same men who will use diminutive or overly familiar terms for women in situations where it's not appropriate.
I get it a lot because I have some interests that aren't stereotypically female and there's nothing like sports or car talk with women to bring out the condescending asshole in some men. If you ever want to see what I'm talking about in action, I'd suggest watching the counter staff talk to female customers the next time you're at an auto parts store.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)What I don't get is why if I invented a term like "Femdrive" and said that it was meant to describe how women drive poorly, for example, it would be jumped all over as sexist.
You can't take a negative quality and stick a "man" in front of it and then pretend you are not making a sexist comment. It is that kind of lack of consistency that destroys any argument you may have about gender insults.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)You're comparing it to a stupid gender stereotype that is not borne out in the data.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)There is no data to show that men overly explain things.
Is there data to show that women can't parallel park? Could I make up a term? She's "femparking" to describe how bad women are at parallel parking?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)And not being able to parallel park is relatively trivial, compared to someone routinely behaving in a condescending, (in some sense) diminishing manner.
As you've probably gathered, if you've read more than one or two of my posts, I myself am a man - hell, I keep reiterating it often enough. But for whatever reason, most of the stuff that drives guys like you up the wall, just doesn't trouble me much. No offense, I'm not trying to tell you what to think - other than maybe RE: picking your battles a little better - I just feel that there are better things in life to worry about. Like, say, severe personal trauma.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)mercuryblues
(16,413 posts)Fantasies and rape are not on equal ground, not even close. In the role playing scenerio, the woman chooses the partner.
I am willing to bet that there is also a safe word she can use If she feels the partner is going to far. Those things don't happen in rape. The rape victims that I know didn't have a choice at all on who, when or where the rapist raped her. The rapist didn't even listen to them at all when they begged him not to and screamed NO.
Nice try to for the OP minimizing rape into women fantasize about it, so some rapes are legit! NOT. I wish he would do the right thing and self-delete the OP. We'll see how sensitive he is towards women being brutalized. We'll see if he has an Aha moment and realizes that OP's like this one are not even helpful in a serious discussion of rape. We'll see if is sensitive enough to realize that there are women on this board that have been raped and this type of title and OP are incredibly hurtful and painful. Because no rapist ever said that the woman agreed to being raped. Or we'll see if he is just another rape apologist and jerk. I suspect the latter, but I would like to be proven wrong.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)threads be sequstered in a 'Rape Forum' or maybe a 'Human Sexuality' forum.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240176761
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)And yes, it is rather interesting.
Are certain conversations off limits?
UtahLib
(3,182 posts)If you merely wanted to encourage conversation concerning the variations of human sexuality you consider to be interesting, you would not have included the word "rape"to draw attention to your post.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)redqueen
(115,186 posts)Rape has been romanticized in Hollywood for decades.
End that and I wager rape fantasies will disappear within a generation after it becomes more obvious how sickening and horrendous that romanticization really is.
As of now rape culture is still so prevalent, hardly anyone even notices it.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)I think one will find(and it has been studied) that this goes well beyond the culture here.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)is accompanied by a look at the societal narrative with respect to romance and rape.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)This is really unnecessary.
WheelWalker
(9,402 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)WheelWalker
(9,402 posts)Rape is an unwelcome action. A sexual fantasy is a welcome mentation. An "aspect" is a prominent attribute - a distinguishing quality. Your premise is that a welcome thought is a prominent characteristic of an unwelcome action. I find that premise to be internally inconsistent and a false equivalency.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Don't think you're fooling anybody.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)that a woman may fantasize something sure as shit doesn't mean she wants it translated into reality. duh.
you appear dangerously unaware or that. Maybe YOU need help.
dchill
(42,660 posts)I have fantasized about things I'd never do or want done. That's why there's such a thing as fantasy.
Therefore, this thread is logically baseless.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)A real rape and fantasizing about rough sex are very, very different things.
Some people invoke power play into their sexual activities. That gets into the BDSM realm too. Some people get off on the idea that their sex partner is in control and enforces that control. But even in such situations, it's still remains 100% consensual.
A real rape is an act of violence and forced sex against a person that does not want it.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)And BDSM is: safe, sane and consentual. None of which rape is. Huge difference.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)the ones written in works of fiction by male writers. Then the woman falls in love with her rapist who for some reason or other is handsome and dashing other than his forcing himself on the woman. Who is actually having the fantasy?
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)I don't care if you are talking about a male or female. If someone is fanticizing about these scenarios, that means they wants them to happen. And in that case, they don't want raped, they want to role play. Rape implies that one party did not consent or was in a disadvantaged situation where they couldn't make a clear, adult choice to consent. You shouldn't diminish the severity of TRUE rape by drawing these kinds of ludicrous false equivalencies.
WheelWalker
(9,402 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)elaborating on its themes. (At the risk of yet another thread about sexual violence.)
At any rate, you have my compliments for engaging an OP who clearly is not operating in good faith.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:12 AM - Edit history (1)
However, I agree somewhat on role playing. However, for some that may be too much.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)yeah, we totally needed to establish this in a seperate thread.
people were right about this OP from the start
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Is that like "rape rape" or "legitimate rape" or "forcible rape"?
This is so fucking transparent. Not to mention creepy as hell.
LiberalLoner
(11,467 posts)Is it just me or is there an element of "let's beat up on the womenfolk" at play here?
Not really feeling like being part of DU these days.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)It's the old argument that because some women have rape FANTASIES that women secretly want to be actually raped in reality, so "gee wiz, how's a guy to know whether a woman has consented or not" rubbish. It's an argument one would have thought that in this day and age was finally recognized as the bullshit excuse making of rapists no different from the "no can mean yes" bullshit argument. There is simply no other purpose to have brought up rape fantasies of some women particularly during a time when there has been a lot of discussion of rape. One has to seriously wonder about a man that would do that. It's utterly transparent what type of conversation the OP was trying to open up here, and it's disgusting.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)i''ll let people make their own conclusions about why Brentwil felt the need to make share this "interesting" factoid with us.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Or have any sort if dialogue .
Is the fact that females have rape fantasies off limits, somehow?
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)what is it about rape that makes you all defensive? wanna share something?
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)look at the other replies, they see it too.
Brentwil - are you saying that after 3 full days of rape threads you felt it absolutely necessary to bring this up? that sonehow our discussion of rape was incomplete without this aspect? come on -you wanted to take a piss, you did, man up to it.
If this is what you've got to add to the discussion... well... yeah...
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)all 3 lost on you, but not on the others who read this thread.
Telling that your curiosity about rape fantasies just came up this weekend, huh? Synchromysticism?
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)And I knew there had been studies on this. Seems logical to me.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Rape fantasies have about as much to do with rape as children playing indians and cowboys is indicative of their wish to participate in war when they are adults.
What's your point, Brentwil? That women actually want to be raped?
You're such a lousy human being. Couldn't resist pissing all over the open discussion of rape that DU had?
Why is Brentwil so upset about our discussion of rape? One wonders, one speculates... guilt? something darker?
That's another one of those "interesting" things. Some do wonder.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)That's exactly what this argument is... excuse making for men to claim they just had no idea that she didn't consent and that coercion and even physical pressure is just fine and all part of the game of coming on to a woman a man wants to have sex with. It's no different than the "no can mean yes" bullshit argument. The OP having brought this up really gets my hinky meter going which utter revolts me.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Why?
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)false equivilancy -rape fantasies are not the same as rape. any victim knows.
Disgusting.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)And when did I suggest something like that. Of course it isn't.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)you're really disgusting.
Ms. Toad
(38,638 posts)Google is your friend. Plenty of answers exist without opening a thread here.
This thread, stating that rape fantasies are "an aspect of rape" when is offensive. "Rape" fantasies, which are entirely under the control of the person having fantasies, are not an aspect of rape because rape by definition its very definition is completely devoid of control by the person being raped. Sexual role playing (and fantasies about sexual role playing - including being completely devoid of control) can be an aspect of human sexuality - but it is NOT an aspect of rape.
There is no nonmysogynistic reason to start this particular thread at this particular time, when DU women who have been raped have just been subjected to 2-3 days of PTSD triggers. Many of us were told by our rapists, by our friends and families, by police, by prosecutors, and juries that we really wanted it (or deserved it, or were asking for it). Please delete your OP. It is hurtful to the many women on DU whose PTSD has already been triggered by the rape apologist tone of too much of the discussions about rape during the past few days.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Then questioning the motivation of the poster. I posted it because it is something not often talked about in relation to rape. With all the threads, what better time. No subject off limits here, right?
Response to BrentWil (Reply #51)
Post removed
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)still, pretty disgusting.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)just like your thread.
not my fault if the insinuations are that obvious right? after all, like you, im just asking questions.....
see how that works....
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)There is significant evidence that some women do have this as fantasy.
Response to BrentWil (Reply #66)
Post removed
Response to BrentWil (Reply #51)
mercuryblues This message was self-deleted by its author.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)~thrash thread~
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)the OP is.
It's like a 3-year-old pushing the boundaries. How far can I go?
Btw, I just noticed your sig line. I had to laugh because I just happened to have changed mine a couple of days ago.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Do you realize that during a time we are having heated discussions on rape in this country, you post just comes across as another man saying "but hey, I hear they really like it"?
If you DIDN'T realize it then maybe you will now and delete this crap.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)I still think there are deeper implications, namely that the most vile human behavior is just as much a part of us as or better angels. Rape, pedophilia, and others are part of human nature.
Socities role is to control that.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)
pecwae
(8,021 posts)is not, by any stretch, an aspect of the crime of rape. Rape is a life altering violation. What the link is talking about is a fantasy. Whether your words or the articles, using the term 'aspect of rape' is disturbing.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)It is however an aspect of the subject of rape. The crime is a crime and should be condemned.
trumad
(41,692 posts)
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)I saw that the original version was hurtful and changed it. I am up for more rewording. However to delete it seems to suggest that certain subjects are off the table.
mindfulNJ
(2,449 posts)This is a disgusting and disturbing thread...what is even more disgusting is that moderators voted to keep it. I think I may have to take a break from DU.