Since anyone with a penis is a potential rapist there is only but one (or two) answers:

[Whovian]

All male children should be aborted upon learning of the sex.

Genocide of the male sex.

Very tongue and cheek but I wrote a short story back in the seventies in which men were driven out of a matriarchal society due to similar reasons and then hunted and brought in for breeding purposes as the male children were culled and the male population kept in check and fear.

for those thusly impared.

[a geek named Bob]

1. Well said... and good sarcasm

[tj_crackersnatch]

2. i dont understand the point of threads like this

Even if it is 'sarcasm'. Am I missing something?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

10. The election's over...

Time to resume our regularly-scheduled cat-fighting...

[kestrel91316]

105. Obama won. Lots of RWers with time on their hands for trolling now

that their paying gigs in support of Rmoney are over.

Time to restart the War on Women by making us out to be reactionary nutjobs just because we don't like rape or rapists.

[Eleanors38]

116. It has "penis." It has "potential." Put it in the Gungeon!

[antigone382]

3. Funny thing is the reverse is what actually happens around the world.

In places the ratio is actually 150 male children for each 100 female children. And that doesn't even factor in the extent to which female children in impoverished areas routinely receive less food than their brothers, as well as less medical care and education. It doesn't factor in that these girls are often worked much harder and are far more likely to be married off early or sold into sex slavery. It doesn't factor in that married women worldwide are one of the demographic groups with the most rapidly increasing AIDS rates--because their husbands are encouraged to be promiscuous while these women are expected to be ignorant and submissive when it comes to matters of sex.

But there is clearly no connection to patriarchal culture and rape. There is no connection between global conditions for women and conditions in the United States, where after all only 1-in-6 women is the victim of rape (and 1-in-33 men). And it is especially hateful to point out that, wonder of wonders, the vast majority of the perpetrators are male--because it isn't possible that the POINT of that observation is that there must be something cultural causing this, since no person in their right mind believes that that many men are inherent sociopaths--no, the point of such statistics is to set us up for the great holocaust of men that might come, some day, if the radical feminists that have the audacity to point out reality get their way.

The *real* problem isn't a global culture that devalues women and puts them at constant risk while denying access to basic autonomy and resources. The real problem is mean feminists making men feel bad about themselves by brokering the suggestion that maybe, just MAYBE, it often sucks to be born a woman in this world in a way that it does not suck to be a man.

Patriarchy--a silly fantasy by the fearmongers who want to attack our good and just way of life--just like global warming.

[tj_crackersnatch]

4. bingo

'The real problem is mean feminists making men feel bad about themselves by brokering the suggestion that maybe, just MAYBE, it often sucks to be born a woman in this world in a way that it does not suck to be a man.'

[Whovian]

6. I feel there are joys and tribulations that can be ascribed to both sexes.

To infer that one is more or less than the other is not a good thing. No link, just observation and personal opinion.

[antigone382]

9. Do you deny that on a global level women are systematically oppressed?

(Oppression being defined as diminished autonomy and access to resources and power relative to men)


Historically, have women and men simply experienced unique joys and tribulations, or have women historically been in a position of subordination to men?

[LiberalLoner]

13. +1

[antigone382]

19. No answer....

Anyone surprised?

[Nay]

37. Not me. nt

[Whovian]

111. Women, religions, races... there is oppression far too often but inroads have been made.

Female circumcision is against the law in many countries, gay rights are being discussed and given credence, we now have hate crime laws for race, religious and gender based crimes, MLK woke America up addressing Civil Rights in a way that changed all American lives especially in the black community, There are laws giving rights to the handicapped and assuring they have access to everything that those of us who have working legs do. Workers, the poor, the unions, the Jews, Latino/Latina migrant farm workers have been and are still being oppressed.

So, yes. Women have been suppressed. But inroads have been made from the days of suffrage to the ERA.

First cry of repression recorded in history:

[antigone382]

115. I certainly hope they have, but that isn't really the point.

Oppression still exists and on a grand and overwhelming scale, as the things I mentioned in my original post on this thread make clear.

The question is not "is there less oppression than there used to be," but "how much further do we have to go." And on the flip side of that, will we ever achieve anything close to true justice if privileged groups, including men, cannot acknowledge that they are privileged? If men will not acknowledge that implicit in the disproportionate oppression of women is the disproportionate privilege of men, then there will never be anything even close to justice.

I do want to ask you: given that a good deal of evidence has been given that your tongue-in-cheek dystopian horror story for men has been the reality for women for generations, what kinds of thoughts does that stimulate for you? The fact that the kind of situation you present in your OP and short story is so far fetched for one gender, but virtually inevitable for another...does that have any effect on your thoughts regarding gender, sexism, rape, etc.?

[FightForMichigan]

100. I'm sorry, but I find that statement ignorant

and what's worse, willfully ignorant. Looking at the treatment of women around the world, you still stand by that statement?

Because maybe there's a lot you're choosing not to see.

[LiberalLoner]

14. +1 well said.

[Democracyinkind]

5. You certainly do the whole sarc thing way better than the OP...

[SidDithers]

11. Where is the ratio 150 male children to 100 female children?...

Last edited Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:31 PM - Edit history (1)

can you document that? In some regions, there is a disparity, but I've never heard it anywhere near as high as what you claim.

Sid

[antigone382]

15. It comes from the book Global Woman. I don't have the specific page number handy.

That is the upper end of the ratio (as I indicated by saying that "in places" it is "as high as" 150:100, rather than stating that is across the board; I would not claim that that is an overall figure). As I recall it is present in certain rural areas of China, but I will try to find the specific quote with a chapter and page number if I have time later on today (it is at home and I am currently out). However, there are wider areas where it is as high as 120:100.

[Matariki]

41. Antigone382. Your way with words.

[whathehell]

101. +1 n/t

[quinnox]

7. um, there *are* a lot of men who are beasts out there

try reading the crime stories in the news sometime. A lot of scum and slime out there, and 99% are men raping, killing, and so on. It's a harsh but true reality.

[LiberalLoner]

12. +1

Jeez when are these attacks on women for speaking out about the truth of our experience going to stop?

I guess it will only stop when we have been silenced.

I just expected better from a supposedly progressive website.

[Prometheus_unbound]

8. Bullshit

The frequency of rape in a society can and does change, just like any other crime (which, by the way, is also disproportionately committed by young males). And for the record, the USA rank quite badly on rapes, unless there is extreme under-reporting in all other industrialised countries. There's much room for improvement, and no, it does not require mass killing.

[Moonwalk]

16. I doubt your '70's short story of women erasing men...

...was anywhere as good "Huston, Huston Do you Read" by James Tiptree, jr. (pseudonym of Alice Sheldon), where three astronauts from the 70's arrive in a future where there are only women, no men. I recommend anyone who wants to write a story about a world without men read it.

Interesting thing is, it's possible and the men won't have to be brought back:

Fertility specialists have found a way for women to have babies without men.
It involves a cocktail of chemicals acting as an 'artificial sperm' to trick a human egg into forming an embryo.

From here.

Interesting how men who write such stories always seem to have the women regret the decision and bring them back, where as women who write such stories never have the women regretting it and bringing the men back. I don't know if it's in "Huston" or "Herland" (a similar story written by Charlotte Perkins Gilman written back in 1915), but in one of the two it's pointed out by a woman from the all woman society that, from what she's hearing, the only advantage men give women in a mixed society is to protect them from other men.

I don't necessarily agree, but it does make one think, especially if we look at societies where women can't go out without a male relative, etc.

[hfojvt]

124. I was gonna mention Herland

a book I really loved.

But thank goodness there is no "hatred of all men", or something, as these women imagine a happy world without men.

As for the short story from the OP, it is kinda absurd to have the women hunting down men for reproductive purposes. All they would have to do is say "yo, guys, we're available" and then they would need their weapons, not to hunt men down, but to beat back the undesirables.

[a geek named Bob]

125. ummm...

that assumes two things

1.) the majority of the men are straight.
2.) That the women making the offer are deemed - in some way - attractive.

[REP]

133. "When It Changed," by Johanna Russ (in "Again, Dangerous Visions")

[Zorra]

17. In case you don't know ~ women have been hunted down and enslaved in order that

they could be forcibly raped and bred for thousands of years.

Also, baby girls have been abandoned an left to die in some cultures for thousands of years as well.

Your fictitious short story about males has been the genuine real life story for females for many centuries.

[antigone382]

18. Oh don't go adding a global and historical context to things, now.

That is just being insensitive to the beliefs of those who fear the all powerful feminist boogey woman. You should respect their understandings of the world without shoving inconvenient things like facts or history in their faces.

[Zorra]

20. I know; I'm sorry, I'm being bad again. I just can't seem to stop myself.

*Sigh*...it's my inherent, sinful female nature at work, I suppose.

[antigone382]

21. lol, also, I must tell you that my cat has your username...

Though I only use one "R," as in Zora Neale Hurston. She'sa very pretty tortoise shell with green eyes and a queenly bearing. Now there's a female who might murder and imprison a few men...or whoever and whatever gender happens to disrupt her imperial bliss on that day.

[Confusious]

23. I like history

Which ones where those?

I doubt your statement, because the fact is, any culture that did that probably wouldn't be a culture anymore, because they wouldn't have been able to reproduce.

On the other hand, Sparta did do that, but they didn't care if was male or female, just if it was sickly. so no go there, I'm afraid.

Does it happen today, yes. china is the only country I know, due to thier one child policy.

[antigone382]

24. Obviously they wouldn't leave all baby girls to die.

But the fact is that female children have long been considered undesirable and a waste of resources relative to male children around the world. Infanticide has been common in many parts of the world; China comes to mind, though they are not the only example of this. Even today there are places with incredibly imbalanced ratios of male to female babies, largely because of sex-selective abortion. In some areas it is as high as 150 males:100 females. In larger areas it is as high as 120:100. And the lives of women who are worked, underfed, denied access to medicine, education, political choice, and economic opportunities, who are married off as young girls or sold into the sex industry, are the lives of prisoners and slaves. Whovian's dystopian anti-male fantasy is a reality for millions of women and has been for some time.

I don't have the specific statistics handy at this time; I left such books at home. But I do have a link to a thread I made the other day that puts rape and female oppression in a global context, and I think starting with the cases I present there can provide some context that you can use as a starting point to do research on your own. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021914217

[Confusious]

25. Not today

I am full aware of what goes on today.

Cultures for "thousands of years"

Thousands of years is "history"

Ps. Just as aside, what "other places" have imbalances?

[wickerwoman]

27. India.

Honestly, you can't be this obtuse.

[Confusious]

28. Are you always this rude to people asking questions?

Two countries. Not really "common in large parts of the world"

Got anything on that "history?"

[antigone382]

31. India and China are the two most populous countries on the planet.

And they are not the only ones who have serious gender imbalances due to infanticide.

[Confusious]

33. Really, who else?

Got anything on that "history?"

[antigone382]

35. See post #120.

http://www.gendercide.org/case.html

[Confusious]

43. There is no post 120 here. Nt

[antigone382]

44. Sorry, post #29. n/t

[antigone382]

40. Another link

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/01/16/it%E2%80%99s-a-girl-the-three-deadliest-words-in-the-world/

It’s a girl, a film being released this year, documents the practice of killing unwanted baby girls in South Asia. The trailer’s most chilling scene is one with an Indian woman who, unable to contain her laughter, confesses to having killed eight infant daughters.

The statistics are sickening. The UN reports approximately 200 million girls in the world today are ‘missing’. India and China are said to eliminate more female infants than the number of girls born in the US each year. Lianyungang in China has the worst infant gender ratio on record with 163 boys born for every 100 girls. Taiwan, South Korea and Pakistan are also countries in which unwanted female babies are aborted, killed or abandoned.

Gendercide in South Asia takes many forms: baby girls are killed or abandoned if not aborted as foetuses. Girls that are not killed often suffer malnutrition and medical neglect as sons are favoured when shelter, medicine and food are scarce. Trafficking, dowry deaths, honour killings and deaths resulting from domestic violence are all further evils perpetrated against women. This femicide has led the Geneva Centre for Democratic Control of Armed Forces to report in ‘Women in an Insecure World’ that a secret genocide is being carried out against women at a time when deaths resulting from armed conflicts have decreased.

[Confusious]

45. I keep asking about history

You keep telling me about today, and I am fully aware of what goes on today, minus some of the smaller countries.



If you can't provide the histories, then just say so.

[a geek named Bob]

54. nice projection...

[antigone382]

53. I provided a link with historical accounts, but here is a direct quote:

Summary

The phenomenon of female infanticide is as old as many cultures, and has likely accounted for millions of gender-selective deaths throughout history. It remains a critical concern in a number of "Third World" countries today, notably the two most populous countries on earth, China and India. In all cases, specifically female infanticide reflects the low status accorded to women in most parts of the world; it is arguably the most brutal and destructive manifestation of the anti-female bias that pervades "patriarchal" societies. It is closely linked to the phenomena of sex-selective abortion, which targets female fetuses almost exclusively, and neglect of girl children.

The background

"Female infanticide is the intentional killing of baby girls due to the preference for male babies and from the low value associated with the birth of females." (Marina Porras, "Female Infanticide and Foeticide".) It should be seen as a subset of the broader phenomenon of infanticide, which has also targeted the physically or mentally handicapped, and infant males (alongside infant females or, occasionally, on a gender-selective basis). As with maternal mortality, some would dispute the assigning of infanticide or female infanticide to the category of "genocide" or, as here, "gendercide." Nonetheless, the argument advanced in the maternal mortality case-study holds true in this case as well: governments and other actors can be just as guilty of mass killing by neglect or tacit encouragement, as by direct murder. R.J. Rummel buttresses this view, referring to infanticide as

another type of government killing whose victims may total millions ... In many cultures, government permitted, if not encouraged, the killing of handicapped or female infants or otherwise unwanted children. In the Greece of 200 B.C., for example, the murder of female infants was so common that among 6,000 families living in Delphi no more than 1 percent had two daughters. Among 79 families, nearly as many had one child as two. Among all there were only 28 daughters to 118 sons. ... But classical Greece was not unusual. In eighty-four societies spanning the Renaissance to our time, "defective" children have been killed in one-third of them. In India, for example, because of Hindu beliefs and the rigid caste system, young girls were murdered as a matter of course. When demographic statistics were first collected in the nineteenth century, it was discovered that in "some villages, no girl babies were found at all; in a total of thirty others, there were 343 boys to 54 girls. ... n Bombay, the number of girls alive in 1834 was 603."

http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html

[antigone382]

58. more history

Focus (1): India

As John-Thor Dahlburg points out, "in rural India, the centuries-old practice of female infanticide can still be considered a wise course of action." (Dahlburg, "Where killing baby girls 'is no big sin'," The Los Angeles Times [in The Toronto Star, February 28, 1994.]) According to census statistics, "From 972 females for every 1,000 males in 1901 ... the gender imbalance has tilted to 929 females per 1,000 males. ... In the nearly 300 poor hamlets of the Usilampatti area of Tamil Nadu [state], as many as 196 girls died under suspicious circumstances [in 1993] ... Some were fed dry, unhulled rice that punctured their windpipes, or were made to swallow poisonous powdered fertilizer. Others were smothered with a wet towel, strangled or allowed to starve to death."


Focus (2): China

"A tradition of infanticide and abandonment, especially of females, existed in China before the foundation of the People's Republic in 1949," note Zeng et al.. ("Causes and Implications," p. 294.) According to Ansley J. Coale and Judith Banister, "A missionary (and naturalist) observer in [China in] the late nineteenth century interviewed 40 women over age 50 who reported having borne 183 sons and 175 daughters, of whom 126 sons but only 53 daughters survived to age 10; by their account, the women had destroyed 78 of their daughters." (Coale and Banister, "Five Decades of Missing Females in China," Demography, 31: 3 [August 1994], p. 472.)

I would appreciate acknowledgement that I have furnished both of your requests. Thank you.

[Confusious]

71. Acknowledged

After much pain.

[antigone382]

74. Yes, the reality of women's status in the world is excruciatingly painful.

In fact, I'd say "pain" is strangling your own newborn daughter, because as a woman you believe this is a better fate for her than growing up in a situation of constant oppression, abuse, slavery, and the potential for murder after marriage.

[Confusious]

82. Pain is relative

There were many times I wished as a child that I was dead.

[antigone382]

84. I know that quite well. Even have the PTSD diagnosis to go with it. n/t

[FightForMichigan]

108. Seriously?

Do you really mean to minimize the slaughter and abuse of millions of daughters around the world because you, too, had a bad childhood?

[SidDithers]

126. Sex ratio at birth, by country...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio

Interesting that every country has a higher male:female ratio at birth, but at age 65, there are almost 4 women for every 3 men worldwide.

Sid

[antigone382]

129. Why do you think that is?

Note that the nature of the X and Y chromosome leads to a higher mortality rate due to genetic disorders for men.

Nevertheless, I would like to know what other factors you think play a role in this.

[CTyankee]

135. Sid, I really don't know what that has to do with the subject at hand.

We're talking about wholesale elimination of females before or after their births due to patriarchy in many parts of the world thoughout history.

[LiberalLoner]

52. +1

[KitSileya]

46. Considering that India and China together has a large part of the population of the world

Almost one third, if I'm not much mistaken, we are talking about large parts of the world when it comes to women's lives. And it doesn't just impact the lives of women there, but also in their neighboring countries, like Laos, Cambodia, Bangladesh, where women are kidnapped and sold as brides to boys who cannot find a wife nearby....because the girls have been aborted or killed.

(Oh, and before you object to my categorizing these males as boys and not men, it's because a proper man wouldn't buy a wife like he does cattle. Historically, though, that's what usually happened, but you seem to have a history knowledge deficit, so you may not know that. These days, we call someone being bought and sold a slave, and any sexual intercourse that someone must have with their master rape.)

[antigone382]

29. I posted a link to a thread I made the other day in an edit to the previous response.

Off the top of my head there is India, Thailand, and larger areas of East Asia. I think South Korea may be re-approaching gender balance but I'm not sure.

And I already mentioned the legacy of female infanticide in China. That was a longstanding tradition. Speaking of slavery, off the top of my head I can say that about one in forty female children in Cambodia is sold into sex slavery. Girls as young as three or four are raped, girls as young as eight have their hymens sewed together so that their virginity can be resold. Women are drugged, placed in cages, shocked, and gang raped as punishment if they refuse to comply. I recall a story of one girl who was punished by having her eye gouged out after she asked for a day off following a forced abortion.

Worldwide the number one cause of death for women of childbearing age is childbirth. The factors contributing to this are often that their growth is stunted due to malnourishment (something with disproportionately affects girls because boys will eventually become their families social security and are therefore fed better), early marriage (or rape) and pregnancy, lack of access to medical care, and lack of education. Not all women die; some just suffer complications that make their lives a living hell. Globally about 2 million women suffer from fistula, a preventable condition resulting from prolonged childbirth, in which there is a tear between either the rectum or the bladder and the vagina. It causes continual incontinence and painful infections, and the smell further stigmatizes these women and turns them into social pariahs. Fistula is a consequence of absolute powerlessness; if you don't call it de facto slavery, I don't know what to call it.

[Confusious]

36. Sorry, Thailand is 1.05

Pretty much the same as every other country in the world,

Unless you're saying it happens in America, Europe, the whole world.

[antigone382]

48. I guess my question is what is your point here?

Some of us pointed out that his nightmare scenario for men is a reality for many women around the world, and has been for some time. You asked for specific countries so we mentioned China and India, two of the most populous countries in the world--there are others and at present most of them are in South Asia, but the principle point, that girls are killed based on their gender, has been presented as a reality. I don't really know what you want in terms of proof that infanticide is not some brand new invention in these countries. The history is well established and I would think it would be obvious.

In addition, to the premise of males being captured and held as slaves for the purposes of breeding, I told you about the experiences of women around the world who are bought, sold, and traded into marriage or the sex industry. This is also well established, and it has historical antecedents that I would think would be obvious to anyone who was intellectually honest.

Evidence has been presented to you. If you choose to minimize it there is only so much that I can do.

[Confusious]

66. I never said I wanted proof, I know it happens

"The history is well established and I would think it would be obvious"

I don't ever take any person on the web word for something, otherwise I'd probably be owning a lot of shit in Nigeria.

you keep telling me about sex slavery and kiddnapping in those countries. I can guess at the reasons you refuse to answer the question, probably because "it's not obvious" but you keep posting things that have nothing to do with what I asked.

If it was "obvious" you probably would have answered my question by now.

[antigone382]

67. I did answer it. See posts #53 and #58. n/t

[LanternWaste]

64. History is more than merely one thing, regardless of what bumper-stickers may say.

"Thousands of years is "history"

And tradition. And culture. Etc.

History is more than merely one thing, regardless of what bumper-stickers may say.

[Zorra]

38. If you like history, you should be able to quickly research such things yourself. India is

another example.

NEW DELHI: It's official - India is the most dangerous place in the world to be a baby girl. Newly released data shows that an Indian girl child aged 1-5 years is 75% more likely to die than an Indian boy, making this the worst gender differential in child mortality for any country in the world.

If you are not aware of the many examples of females being captured and enslaved for forcible rape and breeding purposes, then I would suggest that you translate your liking of history into reading and study of the subject. I'm sorry, but I don't have time to do any more simple internet research for you.

[Confusious]

42. Like I keep saying

I am fully aware of today.

I just thought you might be helpful and point me toward these "histories," but you seem unable to do that.

Is it beneath you?

[Zorra]

51. The information is out there. Find it yourself, I'm not your mother. nt

[antigone382]

65. I provide the history and suddenly it's All Quiet on the Western Front.

[Confusious]

70. Finally my question gets answered

Thank you.

That wasn't so hard was it?

[antigone382]

73. Well the links I provided did offer some history. I didn't expect to have to spell it out.

How I would like to know how you incorporate that history into your wider views of gender relations and the relative status of women on a global scale.

Also, the reason that I brought up other things apart from infanticide is because both Whovian's and Zorra's posts were about more than infanticide. They were also about subjugation and slavery.

[Zorra]

72. Shocking! But you do, of course, realize that no example that you post will ever be good enough, no

matter how many facts you present?

[Confusious]

80. If you present the facts asked for

They will be accepted and acknowledged.

Try it sometime.

[antigone382]

62. See posts #53 and #58. n/t

[Matariki]

75. Like that's going to help

'Confusious' is being disingenuous. He started by demanding you answer about today - as if the oppression of women was something that only happened in the past or, 'he only knows of', today in China. Only after you provided him ample examples does he began harping about 'history'. He's playing a game. Asking for information that is common knowledge and if you don't wear yourself out answering him he thinks it proves something. What I'm not sure - that women never were and are not currently treated as less important than men (or worse)? That men "have it just as bad"? It's trollish behavior. And there's no real communication with someone like that. Whatever you provide him he'll just squawk "more, more. you have nothing".

Absurd.

[Confusious]

87. Do really read these things?

Or do you assume?

I asked about history first, as an aside, I asked about where.

She provided lithe links to the history, so I am satisfied.

Your post says more about you then me.

Boy, my ignore is really getting filled up.

[Matariki]

91. Good. Please put me on ignore.

I certainly get nothing from your responses to my posts.

[CTyankee]

136. One of the most common themes in Western art is the "rape of the Sabine women."

(the term rape was meant to refer to "abduction" but of course rape would inevitably follow.)

[Odin2005]

22. I believe this is called a straw man.

Nobody is saying that all men are rapists. What we are saying is that women are always fearful because they cannot tell if someone is rapist or not.

[a geek named Bob]

39. Guess what? *I* can't tell when someone has the intention of trying to mug me...

Instead of living in fear, I carry a few simple methods to protect myself.

There's a lot of implication that men NEED to take special courses. Coercive corrective courses are up to courts to decide.

[retread]

57. "There's a lot of implication that men NEED to take special courses." Well, Bob, if the

shoe fits!

[a geek named Bob]

63. retread... are you trying to say something?

Instead of being passive-aggressive... be an adult and state it outright, please.

[retread]

79. "... are you trying to say something?" Yes.

[a geek named Bob]

83. then instead of being passive aggressive... state it outright

face consequences and rewards, like an adult.

[retread]

96. consequences?? rewards?? It's an internet forum, Bob!

[a geek named Bob]

99. here we go...

consequences... being considered an adult, instead of a coward that hides behind insinuations.
Rewards...having people respect you.

That sounds like consequences and rewards to me...

But let's get back to it...

If you have something to say about me... instead of hiding behind insinuations, have at it.

[KitSileya]

60. Do you expect the guy your friend introduced you to, to mug you?

What about the guy that just started working in your office? What about your cousin? The girl you went on a date with? Your wife or husband? How about those two guys who came by when you were playing in a meadow on a sunny summer day?

No? Then you should know that women are not afraid of rape only when they're walking down dark alleys. Today, where I live, a 19-year old was found guilty of the rape and murder of a 98-year old woman in her apartment. He was the next-door boy that she had seen grow up. She opened the door when she saw it was him, because she never expected he would do something so heinous.

Women cannot protect themselves against rape all the time in all situations. I dare say you would agree with me that being raped is a bit worse than being mugged. It's not the case of "carry[ing] a few simple methods to protect myself."

I know that men can stop rape, because if the reluctant one in the last situation described in my paragraph hadn't given in to peer pressure, I might not have been raped as a 10-year old.

[a geek named Bob]

76. Okay...

1.) I'm sorry that you were raped. No one deserves that ever, in any way/shape/form/thought/word/deed/essence.

That said...

2.) FORCING people to take courses violates the recipient's free will. That kind of action is up to courts and the law in general. Also, it sounds about as effective as a 50's loyalty oath. Worse, it could and would engender a certain amount of reluctance to help victims and potential victims. (People live down to your stated expectations...)

3.) In any case where people start talking about forcing others to learn something, I ask a simple question: If I substitued the group and the learning material in question, would you be okay with the lack of free will? Maybe the Westboro Baptist church thinks that they are right. Maybe everyone in college should sit through a semester of their "studies."

4.) TV muggings often have a victim walking away. A lot of real life muggings require a trip to the emergency room.

[KitSileya]

86. We force people to take courses all the time. For years.

It's called school, and even if you home school, there are certain things your kids need to learn to pass tests. Otherwise, CPS can be called in and you may lose your kids.

I know that the US is mightily messed up wrt sexual education (whether it is a symptom or a cause of the general mess of American society, I cannot judge) but that is a good place to start. Or when learning anatomy or your rights in science and social science classes.

[a geek named Bob]

89. And after age 18, society stops forcing courses...

Putting "don't rape" themes in a civics class makes perfect sense, alongside other civil rights issues.

[gollygee]

94. Have you ever gone to college?

If you want to go to college, there are plenty of required classes.

They aren't required if you don't want to go to college, so yes as an adult you have a right not to go to them. But if you attend that school, that school can indeed require a class.

Edited because I think most of us are talking about a discussion during orientation, not a class anyway.

[retread]

97. Or worked for a large company? Not courses but plenty of classes.

[a geek named Bob]

98. Why yes, I HAVE gone to college...

and required courses can often be placed out of... or challenged. Also, a "required" course is generally there to further the education. For a realistic "don't rape" skill set, we aren't talking about a whole semester's worth of info. (situations, lead ups to evil choices, cultural differences, and facial expressions/mannerisms ought to cover it.)

Then there's the fact that YOU ARE STILL PAINTING ALL OF THESE YOUNG MEN WITH A BROADBRUSH. Why should someone help your cause, after you've implied that they are dumb or borderline evil?

BUT, if you are only seeking to "educate" college bound men, then you are missing quite a bit of the population.

[gollygee]

103. Date rape is not uncommon on college campuses

And alcohol is suddenly much more readily available too. I think it's a good place for that conversation.

No one is assuming all of those young man are rapists. But no one can look at them and tell which ones don't understand that taking advantage of a very drunk girl at a party is rape. You can make that clear when you start the discussion. "I know most of you are already well aware of this, but statistically we know a few of you aren't, and we have know way of knowing which few."

[a geek named Bob]

107. At least you're willing to go for a more "nuetral" stance...

Alcohol IS a problem on campus. Specifically, the "forbidden thrill" mixed with the near total lack of understanding is a problem. (I can't understand the attraction, but I'm weird.)

The class in general presupposes that ALL men in said class are possibly "that guy." THAT'S presumption of guilt.

I never understood the supposed attraction of drunk women at parties. (But again, I'm weird.)

[gollygee]

110. I would have both women and men go

The women and the men in general should have this said in front of them too to help create an environment where they know to speak out when they see something happen. It creates less gray area. "What is happening?" Someone who wouldn't think to take a drunk girl into another room to rape her might not even recognize what is happening if they see a passed-out girl being taken into another room. They might assume the passed out girl is just being put to bed because she passed out. But after taking the class they might think to pay more attention.

[a geek named Bob]

113. Better yet...

embed it in the crime prevention class framework.

One school I attended had us learn to spot potential dope burns. (No judgement on the part of the RA's and the staffers, just giving over some street wisdom.)

[gollygee]

114. That sounds very reasonable

A whole crime prevention class during freshman orientation that talked about a number of crimes including rape would be perfect.

[a geek named Bob]

117. mind you, relying on others being nice is not much safety protection

Give female students some realistic training...

[gollygee]

119. Well this all started with a young woman holding a poster

about how her freshman orientation talked about how not to get raped INSTEAD of talking about not raping. Really I think a good orientation would include both. From one thread I got the impression at least one of the men posting thought that we were saying that it had to be one or the other and it would have to be talking about not raping with nothing said about avoiding being raped, but I don't think any women have said that at all. It's the total focus on what women should do to avoid it with no discussion of the crime itself that is troubling to us.

[a geek named Bob]

127. gollygee, I learned a long time ago to NOT count on other people for protection...

Telling people to NOT do something doesn't serve as a safeguard, unless you are setting up a documented legal paper trail...
"good" men will be disgruntled, and those who ARE evil will just learn some new rhetoric.

Personally, I'd have women learn an "executive protection" course, and a blend of Hard/Soft martial arts (with a LOT of emphasis on pressure points and easy break spots.)

[gollygee]

128. Obviously not all will learn what is wrong

but it's part about creating an environment where the university has explicitly stated that it is rape and is not tolerated, for the benefit of the women and the men - including, as I said, the men who would never think to rape and might not realize what is happening, but might speak out about it if this environment is created.

[a geek named Bob]

130. As I said...

That's a paper trail.

[KitSileya]

112. A while back, I got a real eye opener about college rape.

I was looking for statistics in a discussion where a DUer said that men had a greater chance of being murdered and implied that that made men's lives more filled with fear than women. Of course, with 14,000 murders, of both men and women, and 90,000 reported rapes in the US every year.....

Anyway, a DoJ report said that in any academic year, 1 out of every 36 female college students was raped. That didn't include any rape attempts. In other words, every year 3% of all female college students in the US is raped, according to this report. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

It still breaks my mind to think about it.

[Sheldon Cooper]

77. So Bob, if you actually were mugged,

would you be blamed for it? Would the jury wonder what you were doing out by yourself at that hour? And why were you carrying something valuable, Bob? How do we know you weren't trying to give him a little cash, and then changed your mind and accused him of mugging you? You know, sometimes these things are just he said/he said, and I just can't tell what happened, and I can't ruin a man's good name by convicting him of something like this, can I? I'm voting not guilty and he's going to walk free. Better luck next time, Bob.

[a geek named Bob]

81. And you have a point?

Sheldon,

As much as I like your rhetoric, this country was FOUNDED on the presumption of innocence until opposing proof. That's why I carry those simple items to stop a mugging.

[Sheldon Cooper]

88. It seems to be founded on innocent until proven guilty alright.

But somehow only rape victims are required to prove their innocence. If you were mugged, you would never be required to prove that you didn't deserve it.

[a geek named Bob]

92. and so we get to it...

the point of this coercive class is more "consciousness raising..."

sigh...

[LiberalLoner]

55. + 1000 thank you Odin!

[WilliamPitt]

26. Precisely what were you seeking to accomplish with this?

[Whovian]

123. Pointing out that if someone were visiting DU for the first time

They would think that all one speaks about here is rape. It is a terrible, tragic and horrific thing and is a heinous crime that should be addressed as such. But the discussions of late are reaching odd heights. Just three weeks ago you would see an occasional post on the subject but now it seems to be the "slow news" filler of the week. Maybe, in a less than obvious way, I was trying to say this.

[zazen]

132. six mos ago there was a high proportion of stuff about marriage equality

I'm straight, so what's it to me? After awhile I thought, sure I support it, and I'll try to keep an open mind, but since I have heterosexual privilege and don't have to struggle with this day in and day out, I have the luxury of not needing to read every one of them. It was clear to me that this is _my_ privilege, _my_ luxury, _my_ job to understand better what the LGBT community faces, and when frankly I'm all worn out keeping up, I just shut up and don't choose to follow the threads. I would never _presume_ to jump in and tell people struggling with that that they're giving DU a bad image by the number of threads they create.

That's my guess as to how a non-rape supporting male might feel. Sure you care. You want to do what you can. You realize you have the luxury sometimes to turn the issue off. Sometimes you succumb to systemic privilege--we all do--and ignore it. What is weird is diving in and arguing with the community discussing the reality of their issues.

That's what we don't get. Why do non-raping men take women's concerns about rape so personally?

It's not about you, except that we want your help to live in a world where gender violence decreases (hell, violence of all kind, but we're focusing on rape in this case). So, help us determine who's a risk and who isn't. Help us identify these perpetrators up front. Use your leadership with other men to get them to change their attitudes. Take your creative energy to help rather than dismiss us.

rant /off/

[countryjake]

139. Excellent response!

You really should post more!

[JohnnyLib2]

30. Much as I like sarcasm--

this trivializes the matter, even if inadvertently

Good question from WilliamPitt, above.

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. Fucksake.

I really miss the unrec feature.

You have to be some sort of mental deficient to not understand why a woman, walking alone, might perhaps be wary of a strange man, or group of men. Are all men rapists? No. But the fact remains that almost all rapists are men.

[geek tragedy]

34. When fantasies of male victimhood trump basic logic. nt

[FarCenter]

50. All-Female Lizard Species Created in Lab

Researchers have bred a new species of all-female lizard, mimicking a process that has happened naturally in the past but has never been directly observed.

“It’s recreating the events that lead to new species,” said cell biologist Peter Baumann of the Stowers Institute for Medical Research, whose new species is described May 3 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. “It relates to the question of how these unisexual species arise in the first place.”

Female-only species that reproduce by cloning themselves — a process called parthenogenesis, in which embryos develop without fertilization — were once considered dead-end evolutionary flukes. But in the last decade, unisexuality has been found in more than 80 groups of fish, amphibian and reptiles. It might not be such a dead end after all.

Best-known among all unisexual species are Aspidoscelis, the whiptail lizards of southwestern North America, of which 7 of 12 species are unisexual. Genetic studies suggest their unisexuality emerged from historical unions of two sexually-reproducing lizards belonging to closely-related species, the hybrid offspring of which possessed mutations needed for parthenogenesis.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/05/all-female-lizards/

A little genetic engineering of humans should do the trick.

[MotherPetrie]

56. The tag doesn't hide the extreme ugliness and paranoia of your post

[Matariki]

59. Ah yes. One of those threads that bring out the trolls.

Poor men. Such victims.

[a geek named Bob]

93. ...as you say...

but I'd suggest looking in a mirror for one such troll.

[Matariki]

104. Well said Bob. You're really smart.

Why don't you put me on ignore please. I don't like you.

[a geek named Bob]

109. THank you for the compliment! I will keep in my list of happy thoughts.

As to the rest of your comment:

Why don't you put me on ignore please. I don't like you.

Is that:

Why don't you put me on Ignore, Please?

or more of a suggestion?

[nolabels]

118. Yes Bob, but lets just keep the facts

The women have brought this on themselves. Us boys were just helpless beings for so many of our early years.

I once sat on jury that put a rapist in prison for long time. The obvious motive was about suspects own perceived lack of person-hood and status. To me he was just another failure of our society. It was obvious we failed him long before he performed his dastardly deeds but he also seemed much too hardened and dangerous to get free anytime soon. I guess it is just another reason why we have to pay taxes

Yea, testimony from the victim was very damning and we hope the extensive conviction brought some resolution to her problems but reflecting back on case and how brutal it was, it's still kind of creepy

[a geek named Bob]

121. show me where I blamed the victim.

[retread]

61. Huh? WTF??

[LanternWaste]

68. I imagine the person who allows only one (or two) solutions to any given problem is either

I imagine the person who allows only one (or two) solutions to any given problem is either dogmatic or merely an idiot.

2+2=?

=4, & =4+0, & =5-1, and many, many other solutions as well...

[WinkyDink]

69. Your basic premise is in error, as it omits the brain and the heart.

[a geek named Bob]

85. I'll give you points for honesty...

Pax Vobiscum.

[sufrommich]

120. No honesty, he was trolling. Pretending to be the

man hating feminist of his infantile imagination. A quick search of past posts makes it pretty obvious.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=177869

[a geek named Bob]

122. then I apologize...

I thought he/she was being serious.

I actually know some folks that are serious about such things.

[bitchkitty]

90. Yeah, whatever.

Why did you post this? What's the back story? Yes, I know, a story you wrote. But why did you post this here, now? What happened to you that prompted this topic?

[Separation]

95. I have nipples Focker

Can you milk me?

[Silent3]

102. Tongues. fingers, strap-ons...

...we aren't safe from anyone or anything. Not even bunnies.

[Tikki]

106. Haven't you all watched Law & Order?....rape is an act of violence perpetrated on...

a victim in any orifice of the human anatomy (male or female) with an object (penis, gun barrel, broom stick, whatever)
to afflict force, control and humiliation and often pain or death on the victim.

Men who have been physically or chemically castrated can still rape and a woman doesn't need a penis to rape.

Tikki

[Dems50State]

131. Free surgery finally for us who are Transgender I love it

Let the slicing start! So where do I sign up for my free surgery to become a woman?

[pecwae]

138. Jury results of alert

I signed mine and still feel your post should have been hidden. Other felt differently.

********************

At Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:41 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Free surgery finally for us who are Transgender I love it
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1926996

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This post repeats an ugly myth about mtf transgender people. See #2 on this list.
http://skepchick.org/2012/01/13-myths-and-misconceptions-about-trans-women-part-one/

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:52 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Very poor taste, but I don't think that bad. One of my employees was transgender: the surgery required was significant and difficult and nothing to be laughed at. As one of my other employees said, "it much be really important if X is willing to go through all tha that".
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Insensitive and hurtful. I don't know what this poster is attempting with such a post, but he has failed. pecwae
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Dash87]

134. Omg

[LiberalLoner]

137. Would you like to hear my solution to the problem?

The one I came up with at five years old?

I prayed (was brought up Lutheran) for God to make me be like my Barbie doll. No holes where people could hurt me anymore.

It has never occurred to me, all my life, to wish for men to vanish or be harmed as a group.

I only wanted to be safe.

I only want to be safe.