Unbelievable! Another example of our out of control gun culture.

[Laurian]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by SYFROYH (a host of the General Discussion forum).

An argument resulting from a man bumping into a car with his wheelchair ends in a shooting death.

http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/crime/wheelchair-bumps-car-at-gas-station-woman-shot/nTNHR/

Damn.

[Aristus]

1. Uh-oh. You're asking for trouble from the DU gun brigade.

They'll tell you that the problem is obviously not with guns, but with cars and wheelchairs...

[Laurian]

3. I know, but this seemed so absurd. I was stunned by it.

[bongbong]

39. Precious

Their Precious rules their world.

[billh58]

44. Well, it seems clear

that the woman got out of her car with malice aforethought in order to viciously attack the man in the wheelchair and posed an imminent bodily threat to him. He was only standing his ground, and shooting in self-defense was the only way he could defend himself from this unprovoked attack.

When everyone is armed, these incidents will become so common that we won't even find them newsworthy. That's the USA that RKBA gun carriers everywhere are longing for.

Just in case anyone has doubts...

[slackmaster]

53. You're missing something else. The shooting happened in Georgia, and the shooter was arrested.

[bongbong]

65. Good!

I'm glad that the arrest brought the person back to life that the Delicate Flower (the gun-nut) killed.

[justanidea]

2. Not going to issue any judgement on this yet since there isn't much detail

The article just says that the woman got out of her car and the man in the wheelchair shot her.

Did she just casually get out of her car and he freaked out?

Was she getting out and apologizing and he just went psycho?

Or was she getting out of the car yelling/screaming/threatening the man in the wheelchair?

This is important to know.

[tridim]

4. Execution isn't justified in any of those posibilities.

[Aristus]

5. Exactly. What could have started and ended as a shouting match instead

ended with a body bag and someone in custody. The distinguishing factor in this case is the gun.

[justanidea]

6. Execution?

I'd imagine if the woman got out of her car and starting threatening the man with violence, that defending one's self could hardly be considered "execution".

Don't get me wrong, if I walked into someone's car and they got out yelling/screaming/threatening me, or even physically pushing/shoving me, I wouldn't draw a gun. But that's because I'm a fit 22 year old and can handle myself well enough in a fist fight to not be too worried. If I was a 73 year old in a wheelchair however, I'd imagine my threshold for feeling my life is in danger would be much lower.

Anyway, the article is light on details, so it's pointless to speculate. All I am saying is depending on what happened between the woman exiting her car and the shots being fired directly impacts whether this is a murder or a self-defense shooting.

[malaise]

16. IF he didn't have the gun the woman would still be alive n/t

[sarisataka]

22. But...

if he didn't have the gun would he be seriously injured or dead? Being in a wheel chair means his ability to physically fight or retreat is somewhat hindered.

From the few details in the article it looks questionable, but that is why reporters don't investigate crimes for charges. We have police who will do that and may possibly find that he was justified based on information the report did not include or did not know. Or we may read about him being charged for a crime.

[former-republican]

31. It's better to convict someone in the court of public opinion

"Hell" let's just do away with our court system and go to vigilante justice!

[sarisataka]

36. Opinion and knee jerk reaction

seems to be the preferred method of passing judgement.

I followed your link to AWARE that was so pilloried. Yes it did mention 'gun' and offer training but if you looked past those links (25% or so) there was a bushel of good information and resources.

True as some pointed there was nothing on PTSD but their mission is prevention. Most victim support groups do little prevention education. Not every organization can be all things to all people.

[bongbong]

67. Threatening?

So words, just threatening words, are now grounds for execution?

[madokie]

7. Exactly

[upaloopa]

10. Yea sure, don't want to support gun carrying if you'll

look like a fool. Wait until you can make some argument supporting gun rights. Like every other gun violence post gunners can't admit that this is a tragic death and deserves pause to consider if something is wrong with our society. Gunners are losing the debate day by day. At least have some human feelings for the woman who is now deprived of life liberty and the persuit of happiness!

[justanidea]

11. Huh?

Where did I say this death isn't tragic? I just said we don't know the details.

[upaloopa]

14. You didn't say it was. That would be what people do.

People then seeing tragedy reflect on it and try to make some sense of it.

[joeybee12]

15. You implied by jumping to try and find a justification

for the shooting...no, you're not looking for answers, you're looking for an excuse.

[former-republican]

19. You mean like our court system does

[morningfog]

13. Pathetic.

[Iggo]

18. I can shoot someone for yelling and screaming at me?

Sweet!

[slackmaster]

20. If the person threatens you and you are in a wheelchair, possibly yes.

[Iggo]

60. Yes!

Kill! Kill! Kill!

[slackmaster]

75. Got your "Kill Kill Kill" right here, as requested.

[bongbong]

70. Thats great!

How much yelling? Above a certain db? How about the choice of words?

Does "fuck you" rate a wounding, but calling somebody worse rate death? What do the Delicate Flowers use for their "threatening words = execution" metric?

[Hoyt]

72. My experience is that those who carry in public tend to be callous and perhaps paranoid.

That's a dangerous combination.

[justanidea]

73. Uh context is everything.

If someone came up to you in a dark alley and said "I have a knife and am going to kill you.", you'd have to agree that deadly force would be justified.

Not like you need to wait around until you're actually dead to take action.

[justanidea]

25. No.

Most states law says you must "Reasonably believe that you are at risk of immediate serious bodily injury or death" to use deadly force.

I'd imagine it wouldn't take much to serious injure an elderly man in a wheelchair, so the threshold for using force would likely be lower.

You still couldn't shoot them just for shouting at you. But if you're in a wheelchair, you also likely wouldn't have to wait until they're already beating the crap out of you to do something.

There is a difference between someone yelling "You stupid asshole!" and someone getting out of their car and yelling "I"m going to drag you out of that wheelchair and kick the crap out of you!"

Not saying any of that happened in this incident. The man in the wheelchair could have just murdered the lady because he was pissed off.

That's why I said I wanted more details.

[upaloopa]

8. Another one of our peaceful law abiding gunners

So what's the difference here between the woman being shot by a gang member or a NRA member? Dead is dead and a gun is a gun.
Can't wait to see how the gunners use this tragedy to promote their love of guns. Maybe the woman should have had a gun too!

[hack89]

9. America has many out of control "cultures"

The Alcohol culture is the one that concerns me the most - it is the big killer where I live.

The irony is that while my brain acknowledges the facts that say we have never been safer from violence of any kind, my heart tells me that America is a rougher, less civil place than it use to be.

[former-republican]

21. Biggest killer in the U.S and the world

Alcohol causes nearly 4 percent of deaths worldwide, more than AIDS, tuberculosis or violence, the World Health Organization warned on Friday


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/alcohol-related-deaths-_n_821900.html

[sarisataka]

26. I have lost more friends and family

to alcohol than guns. That includes participation in armed conflict.

Over in RBKA there is a poster who advocates one strike and you are out for guns, including dropping your gun, being old or obese. How many would accept one DWI and you loose your license forever?

[wendylaroux]

29. I believe that!

and mix alcohol with the guns means big trouble.

[bongbong]

37. Old Age kills, too

> Alcohol

A not-so-subtle attempt to change the subject.

[former-republican]

54. I posted something that is true about alcohol deaths in the U.S and the world

That thing in a bottle "kills " more people than guns.


Spot on analogy also , comparing alcohol related deaths to Old Age Deaths caused by Natural Causes.

[Hoyt]

28. Yes it is less civilized when some gun toter shoots someone in a situation like this.

Guns might be just one of our problems, but that is not a good reason to continue letting more and more people buy and carry them in more and more places.

The gun culture really has lost their minds, and it's time to restrict them because we don't live in a war zone.

[hack89]

32. Don't forget you have never been safer and will be even safer next year. nt

[bongbong]

35. No thanks to guns

Still trotting out that logical fallacy, I see. NRA Talking Lies don't seem to ever go away.

[hack89]

40. Never said it was due to guns. It is simply a fact that gun violence is at historic lows

and still declining.

It doesn't matter what the reason is as long as we are safer - right?

[Hoyt]

46. Then why do you keep promoting more and more guns, and your buddies keep carrying in public.

[hack89]

52. I don't promote more and more guns.

I am satisfied with the status quo.

As for my buddies, public carry is not a new thing. Surely you can present actually stats on the threat of public carry by now. Can you?

[bongbong]

58. Talking Points

Your Talking Point has been conclusively rebutted by me over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over - and you STILL keep repeating it.

Correlation is not causation.

For the THOUSANDTH time! Learn some logic and quit parroting the NRA!

[hack89]

61. So you are saying that gun violence is not at historic lows and steadily declining?

How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?

[bongbong]

64. Glad you agree

That more guns has not helped keep people safer.

[hack89]

66. I have told you that countless times

but you would rather engage in personal attacks so you keep ignoring that.

[Hoyt]

45. I usually feel safe, and it is not because the gun culture can't keep from arming up.

[hack89]

55. It is because the threat they represent is constantly diminishing

what do you think is the bigger threat to America - guns or alcohol? Just curious.

[slackmaster]

51. You don't know jack shit about the situation yet, Hoyt

Time will educate us all.

[Hoyt]

74. Oh come on, Slack, you guys wanted us to wait years to express an opinion on Zimmerman,

Loughner, Holmes, Stawicki and every other gun cultist gone mad.

Wait long enough, as the NRA encourages, and it will all blow away and the gun culture can get back to the same old crud.

[slackmaster]

76. No, I expressed my opinion on Zimmerman less than a month after the shooting, and it hasn't changed

He's at fault for precipitating a conflict without justification, therefore he's morally responsible for the outcome.

[byeya]

12. What happened to "an armed society is a polite society" NRA slogan from a while back?

Only the rubes bought it I guess and the rest of the citizenery was appalled.

[sadbear]

23. I guess that implies one will be polite only if you are intimidated by gun owners, huh?

[hack89]

30. The complete Heinlein quote puts a slight different spin on it

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

He sees guns in the hands of others as making people moderate their actions.

[The Magistrate]

48. The Problem With That, Sir, Is That People Tend To Over-Rate The Odds Of Their Success....

Business and war, among other grand concerns, are utterly dependent on this odd feature of humankind. It is very seldom that each party to a war, for instance, does not expect to win it, though of course at least one of them must be wrong. No one starts a business with the intention of losing the capital and time invested, but that is the outcome of many ventures all the same, no matter how convinced their principals were the thing would succeed handsomely.

Therefore the chief effect of a person's knowing there would of 'guns in the hands of others' could reasonably be expected to be a belief by that person he or she could shoot faster and straighter than the rest in a pinch, and a willingness to act on the basis of that belief, and give what offense, or take what umbrage, seemed gratifying at the moment....

[hack89]

50. On the other hand

a criminal knowing that there is a good chance of an armed resident may think twice before entering someone else's home.

I question the utility of carrying in public - I personally find it easier to stay away from dangerous areas. But home defense is another issue altogether. I reserve the right to defend my family as I see fit.

[The Magistrate]

57. Or Simply Resolve To go In Hard, Sir, and Take No Chances

Or, as most burglars prefer, make certain no one is in the home before entering. In which circumstance, firearms become valuable booty, along with electronics or jewelry or what have you.

Bear in mind, Sir: I have no disagreement with the exercise of the right of self-defense, and the employment of lethal force to do so when appropriate, nor am I the least bit skittish of fire-arms, or any other weapon, for that matter. My objection is to the tone of hysteria, and obvious lack of honesty, both with oneself and with others, which marks so much of the discourse of the N.R.A. and its ilk on the subject.

[hack89]

59. "tone of hysteria" applies to the extremist on both sides

the error is in assuming that anyone who disagrees with me is an "extremist".

There is a large middle group of gun owners that are not "militia types" or "hidden criminals" as has been argued here. A tiny portion of gun owners are NRA members yet gun owners are always smeared with the NRA brush. A significant proportion of Democrats own guns and yet gun ownership is constantly portrayed as a RW value.

The DU gun wars will rage on - drama is a DU constant. But you know as well as I that it is all for naught so I don't let it bother me. You and I will never see eye to eye on guns. I can live with that.

[The Magistrate]

62. One Side, Though, Sir, Is Hard Right Wing, And Dangerous On Its Own Terms

So it is easy for me to know which side to take up on....

[hack89]

63. So you see no middle ground what so ever?

to disagree with you is to be RW? I didn't realize you were the progressive gold standard. I will have to be more respectful in the future.

[The Magistrate]

69. Plenty Of Middle Ground, Sir, But It is Not Present In Political Discussion Of Firearms

The political discussion of firearms is driven is driven by fetishization and fantasy, used to justify opposition to progressive politicians and tendencies.

[hack89]

77. I would certainly agree with you there.

I am not sure exactly how to take the venom out of that particular political discourse. Overturning Citizens United might be a good start.

However I question the commonly held notion that if only the NRA and its kind were out of the picture that somehow America would regain its sanity and pass all this "reasonable" gun control that certain groups want. I wonder, for example, if gun control is a widespread and deeply held view in the Democratic party that is merely suppressed at the national level by fear of the NRA then why hasn't a gun control group garnered the support of tens of millions of voters? Why is there no progressive mirror image of the NRA with equal number of supporters and an equal amount of financial support? The answer seems simple to me - passion for gun control maybe widespread but is very shallow. It certainly was not a big vote concern during the election - I saw no poll showing gun control as a pressing issue.

[Whovian]

79. I so enjoy reading your posts and discussions with others. n/t

[slackmaster]

17. The problem is more likely car culture and the violence that goes with it

So the guy scratched the woman's car. Could that possibly justify whatever she said or did that resulted in her getting shot?

[sadbear]

24. So it was her fault?

[slackmaster]

27. There's not enough information to even begin to analyze who was at fault

There are conflicting news reports, none of which have any information about what transpired between the two.

[bongbong]

33. Guns are needed by many people

Many Americans are so terrified of EVERYTHING that they cower in fear, hidden in their bunkers, unless they are strapped.

You never know when you'll come across a "thug" (wink wink - to a gun-nut that means a darker colored person) in your travels in Bumfuck, USA.

[Auntie Bush]

34. I wonder how many other people are shot to death over some

personal differences...but never make the news? Bet there are thousands!

[ax4john]

38. Nicole Brown

Lets ban knives as well....just ask Nicole Brown Simpson......

[sadbear]

42. And the thousands of other knife victims, too.

[billh58]

47. A left over

from yesterday's swarm of gun nuts. Welcome to DU...

[Comrade Grumpy]

41. Another example of the grand American bargain:

We get all the guns we want, just about wherever we want.

We get a few thousand people killed every year.

Sweet.

[hack89]

56. We made the same bargain about alcohol too. nt

[99Forever]

43. Thou shalt not...

... speak ill of the gun psychos precious.

[Ya Basta]

49. Unrec for OP title conflating near half the population with criminal behavior.

n/t

[rustydog]

68. She'd be alilve today if the man wasn't armed

Lethal force..Of course Wayne LaPierre would insist she should have been armed too,
and the other customers so everyone could exercize their 2nd amendment rights to kill innocent people in a bllind rage or sheer ignorance of the developing situation.

[believer10101]

71. Whoa!

I've been teaching gun safety for years. My students have had zero shooting injuries. Screeching demands to ban guns just makes one look foolish. The states with the strictest gun bans have the highest per capita gun violence. The chance of a gun being used on a family member is 1/150th the chance of it being used to stop a bad guy.

[Hoyt]

78. Do you have links to this bull you are teaching folks? Are you an NRA "certified" instructor?

I think "students" is a stretch.

[99Forever]

81. Now there's one fresh steaming pile...

... of NRA lies for ya.

Wow and from a "poster" with 2 whole posts. Must just be a coincidence, right?

[Whovian]

80. Why is it that every post in GD that has something to do with guns as a murder weapon

brings out these very low post trolls extolling the virtues of being armed to the teeth because they imagine we are in such a predatory world? Are they getting paid for this or what?

[slackmaster]

82. I have news for you Whovian - DU is widely read among people with very diverse beliefs about things.

There are a lot of people out there who care passionately about the right to keep and bear arms, and they don't all feel that way because of your fantasy about thoughts of a predatory world. Posting a story about a homicide and framing it as a "gun" issue rather than a homicide and a crime investigation causes the thread to show up high on search engines.

One-off murders and other homicides happen every day. This story has some legs because it involves an elderly African-American man on a mobility device, and it happened at a gas station after an apparent minor collision with a vehicle.

People chime in on subjects that they care about. There is no big mystery here, and no grand conspiracy of people being paid to post on Democratic Underground. It's just the Internet.

[aikoaiko]

83. Locking

Gun threads that don't meet the criteria of "really big news" are prohibited in GD per the SOP. The Gun Control and Right to Keep and Bear Arms group might be a better place for this discussion.