I learned something today about toxic masculinity.

[LAS14]

I learned why I feel a sense of unease when this topic is raised.

It's not at all that I don't agree with the examples that are raised. They're right on, and we need to work to change this aspect of society.

But I still felt uneasy.

A talking head on Fareed Zakaria's program (sorry - can't remember his name) explained the statistical phenomenon of young (millenials and gen z) women shifting to the left while young men are shifting to the right. He explained it by pointing out that the left has no discernable vision of positive masculinity. They have left that part of the stage empty, while the right has a story to tell.

What would a leftist vision of positive masculinity look like?

Edit: Already, with less than a dozen replies, they're leaning heavily to pointing out Tim Walz. I'm making the point that we need a description of positive masculinity. Not just an example.

[Skittles]

1. REAL MEN don't need validation

they are comfortable in their own skin and stand WITH women, not AGAINST them

[LAS14]

3. Of course that's true, but...

... we may need more young men who are not comfortable in their skins to vote for Harris/Walz. Maybe if we populated that blank stage we might get their vote.

[Skittles]

10. um

there are PLENTY of positive male Democratic role models

good lawd, it's WOMEN who need the "stage populated"

[LAS14]

11. We need a description, not just models.

[Skittles]

13. simple common human decency?

[LAS14]

14. That doesn't address the need because it applies equally to both sexes. nt

[Skittles]

16. why do men need more?

that's kind of pitiful

[LizBeth]

28. I have been arguing this lfor two decades while men have been battling

this with their pod casts and toxic masculinity bullshit. I do not get why SOME men have such a time comprehending but I gotta tell you.... lots of left men on podcast calling this bullshit out saying..... STOP!

I wish I had the links handy, they just come to me though and they are truly awesome men all without needing a definition of their masculinity.

[Skittles]

33. right

I also do not believe we really NEED the votes of the pathetically insecure - THESE are the kind of men who need to be left behind, to HELL with them. REAL MEN ROCK!!!

[LizBeth]

35. They were the men supporting Sanders but just could not get themselves to support HRC

not that they do not want a woman, they do, just not THAT woman.

[Skittles]

40. don't even get me started on BS

[LizBeth]

44. Bah hhaahahahaaha

[LAS14]

98. So what became of the idea that the Democratic party has a big tent?

This might explain a little bit why the right claims that the left is made up of arrogant people.

[Skittles]

105. we are a big tent

it means we're not racist or sexist, NOT that we have to coddle insecurities

and don't even get me STARTED on the ARROGANCE of people who want to get between women and their doctors

[LizBeth]

112. So, Dems coddle make ego so they feel secure in masculinity in order to get their vote even IF

it means at the expense of women. Does that at all sound familiar to you?

[Rebl2]

76. What you

said but without the question mark. Common human decency. A man who can stand his ground without bullying and calling people names, who is helpful and kind to others.

[mercuryblues]

43. Create your own description

Women not only had to break out of the pigeonhole men defined them by, but they also had to learn how to define themselves.

Why should they do that for men?

[Skittles]

59. I'm pretty sure what these insecure men "need"

is "proof" of their superiority to women

[LizBeth]

61. Yes. Bottom line. Yes. this is what it is and we are having none of it. Old, tired, done!!!

[mercuryblues]

66. But 1st, they need women to tell them what it is and how to do it.

[LizBeth]

70. lol.... sigh, ya.

[Zoomie1986]

90. We are not responsible for their behavior

They need to grow up and accept responsibility for their own actions. No one else can do it for them.

Stop putting this on women. We already have burdens enough to carry, thanks very much. It's like telling black people they need to stop doing X (mostly X translates into being 'uppity') so that white people will be nicer to them and 'give' them rights that they deserve to have, period.

But thanks for the mansplaining. What is a day ending in Y without it?

[mucholderthandirt]

121. Thank you for this:

Stop putting this on women. We already have burdens enough to carry, thanks very much. It's like telling black people they need to stop doing X (mostly X translates into being 'uppity') so that white people will be nicer to them and 'give' them rights that they deserve to have, period.

But thanks for the mansplaining. What is a day ending in Y without it?

Why does anyone have to show men how to be positive? Can't they see it all around them? Can't they figure out it's pretty much the opposite of the MAGA cult? Of brutal men, of men who want to control women? Good gods, it's not that hard to figure out!

[Celerity]

48. Operationalizing positive masculinity: a theoretical synthesis and school-based framework to engage boys and young men

Health Promotion International, Volume 37, Issue 1, February 2022



https://academic.oup.com/heapro/article/37/1/daab031/6220389

Summary

Scholars have consistently documented the relationship between conformity to traditional masculine norms and maladaptive psychosocial outcomes among boys and young men. Given current social commentary, including debate around ‘toxic masculinity’, intervention is needed to encourage boys to embody healthy expressions and identities of masculinity. Whilst new approaches grounded in positive masculinity show promise, the construct requires further definition and phenomenological clarity. Here we review divergent perspectives on positive masculinity, and forward a refined definition, specific to psychosocial health promotion among boys and young men. We then outline the theoretical basis of a positive masculinity framework to guide the content of future interventions, aiming to achieve positive identity development among boys and young men for the good of all. This framework represents a necessary unification of scholarship around male adolescent development, education and health. Future health promotion interventions may benefit from applying the framework to support a positive psychosocial trajectory among boys and young men, with a focus on connection, motivation and authenticity.

INTRODUCTION

Divergent perspectives exist regarding the contribution of masculinity to psychosocial adjustment problems among boys and young men (Lomas, 2013). Whilst some have appraised scholarship surrounding the maladaptive psychosocial sequelae of masculinity as reductive and essentialist (Addis et al., 2010), others have argued the behaviour of boys and young men cannot be understood completely free from socially constructed idealized masculine relations, roles and identities (Johnson and Repta, 2010). With this article, we aim to review these perspectives regarding the theoretical construct of positive masculinity. Given the current dominant discourse around the term ‘toxic masculinity’ (Ging, 2019), interventions for school-age boys and young men grounded in positive masculinity are urgently needed provided this concept is appropriately operationalized. We aim to advance the conceptualization of positive masculinity that reflects a developmental process towards healthy masculine identities that are supportive of gender equality and grounded in three key domains that represent a conglomerate of strengths-based positive psychology (Seligman and Csikszentmihalyi, 2000). The development of this framework represents a necessary step forward in ensuring health promotion efforts for boys and young men are theoretically grounded.

IDENTITY DEVELOPMENT AMONG BOYS AND YOUNG MEN

Research investigating psychosocial development, wellbeing and educational outcomes of boys and young men consistently highlights gendered patterns recursively flowing to, and from, difficulties in particular areas during adolescence (Schofield et al., 2000; Wong et al., 2017; Rice et al., 2018). Among boys and young men, this can manifest in poor school engagement and outcomes (Ueno and McWilliams, 2010) and heightened risk of doing and experiencing harm. This is evidenced by rates of aggression and violence (Ravn, 2018), problematic substance misuse (Young et al., 2002), perpetration of sexual and gender-based harassment and assault (Niolon et al., 2015; Casey et al., 2017), and markedly higher rates of suicide compared to females (Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2019). For instance, male suicide accounts for 24.4% of all deaths of Australian young people aged 15–24 (Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2016), with similar statistics reported internationally (Kõlves and De Leo, 2016). A recent systematic review and meta-analysis of population-based longitudinal studies also found young males were consistently at greater risk of death by suicide relative to young females (Miranda-Mendizabal et al., 2019).

These gendered patterns have led to investigations of the role of gender socialization in these issues, particularly the development of a masculine identity and adherence to social expectations of boys and young men (Patton et al., 2018). According to a social constructionist perspective, masculinity is broadly understood as patterns of expected behaviours that cultures use to construct generally accepted meanings of ‘being a man’ (Levant, 2008). While somewhat dynamic and changeable, these expectations typically reflect behaviours and attitudes that are often characterized by demonstrations of control and agency, stoicism, emotional rigidity and inhibition, and an aversion to character traits associated with femininity (Kierski and Blazina, 2009). Substantial research has documented associations between measures of traditional masculine role adherence and a host of psychological and educational problems among boys and young men (Wong et al., 2017; Vogel et al., 2011; American Psychological Association, 2018). The negative impact of masculine role norm adherence on health promotion behaviours, such as help-seeking in the context of distress, is widely documented (Mahalik et al., 2007; Levant et al., 2009). Turning to the school context, scholars have documented the perceived feminization of academic success among school-age boys (Epstein, 1998; Renold, 2001), where boys avoid commitment to schoolwork for fear of being labelled weak or feminine (Jackson, 2003).

snip

[niyad]

88. As ever, thank you so much for this important information.

[Celerity]

96. Yw!

[LAS14]

92. Thanks! nt

[Celerity]

97. Yw!

[claudette]

56. 👍

[Glamrock]

79. Amen sister!

[Skittles]

80. 'sup Glamrock!!!

[Sanity Claws]

2. Walz is a very positive masculine symbol

That talking head is full of shit.

[LAS14]

6. I don't think the mere presence of an admirable man on the ticket...

... fills the need for an articulable story.

[Happy Hoosier]

85. Strong disagree.

Examples are how we communicate what positive masculinity is. He embraces many traditionally masculine traits…. Military service, outdoorsy, handy, championship football coach, but he also embraces compassion… GSA sponsor, gives a shot about women, cares about kids having their basic needs met.

No one is going to respond to some bullshit list of what we think makes a good man. But they will respond to seeing one in action.

[nocoincidences]

106. Did you read the post above?

It's pretty clear....

[LizBeth]

113. He wants men to have their own adjectives that are special to only men, that women do not have.

No one can find that adjective, yet the demand for us to find ONE is there. Can't be done.

[senseandsensibility]

4. Is Walz filling the role of a positive male role model?

I do know that the RW must sense that he is. Today I saw a clip of them ridiculing his mannerisms as being feminine. They are trying to take him down with male voters and not being subtle about it at all. It was from FAUX.

[LAS14]

8. See reply #6.

[ms liberty]

5. Tim Walz. He illustrates it perfectly.

[LAS14]

9. See reply #6.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. Like my brother.

We were raised by an authoritarian malignant narcissist. And I'm so relieved that my brother, his son, didn't turn out like him at all. Grateful, really.

My brother is a well-balanced, thoughtful, sensitive soul. He is one credit short of his master's degree. Well-read and articulate. Married to a wonderful woman and they have a truly egalitarian marriage with nobody's dominant. They take turns doing what has to be done from cooking to cleaning to taking the car for service, gardening, etc. My brother listens, really listens. He is skeptical if you don't have facts and evidence. He is religious and reverent. He is humble. When he complains, it is momentary. He doesn't even hold a grudge. Sure, there have been unpleasant moments growing up, but while he remembers, it hasn't scarred him. He is even-tempered and when he argues, he uses logic, not insults.

I trust him.

[LAS14]

12. Now is there a way to translate that into a political position, the way...

... the right has claimed all sorts of characteristics. Strong, in charge, head of the family.... blah, blah, blah...

[RandomNumbers]

38. Decent human being, caring,

good relationship with children whether their own or someone else's.

My personal faves for men who really what something oo-rah "masculine" - sports and scouting; as in supporting kids in those areas.

A good man is a good partner, in whatever type of arrangement he has. As a partner, he complements his "better half", by sharing the workload of the family. Maybe he's the stay at home parent, maybe he is the breadwinner, maybe he cooperates fully with the others in the family to make it so they can have two paychecks.

And so forth ...

I think you may have a point that Dems haven't exactly backed any sort of visible "movement" around these traits, like the right-wing has. But it isn't really hard to articulate what "positive masculinity" looks like when liberal values are applied. What is puzzling to me is why there are so many men who discard that positivity in favor of being, frankly, just mean and nasty.

[FuzzyRabbit]

15. I see examples of positive masculinity every day.

In the grocery store, young fathers pushing their little kids in strollers.
On TV this afternoon, a very masculine truck driver greeting his 8 year old daughter after a week on the road.
The 6 foot-six guy walking his teen daughter's little puppy.
The fire fighters responding to an old persons medical emergency in my 55+ park.
The father going to work every morning in order to support his family.
Teachers, doctors, nurses, grocers, shoe salesmen. Ordinary people doing ordinary things.
Real men don't need to be pushy, or aggressive, or loud.

[LAS14]

19. Can you transform these examples...

... into a political vision, comparable to the right's "strong, head of the family" blah, blah, blah.

That's the challenge.

[FuzzyRabbit]

22. Who says there has to be only one way to be a "real man"?

[SharonClark]

39. "Strong, head of the family" isn't a "political vision"

It’s sexism and based on outdated traditional role models that puts everyone into pre-ordained roles. Neither men nor women need to be told what makes them “masculine” or “feminine”.

Maybe I don’t understand your point. Could you tell us again why you need a definition of ‘masculinity” and how you think the Harris campaign would utilize it to win the votes of young men?

[LizBeth]

47. I gasped... I thought you were defining as head of house.... lmao

Alas, I was wrong,. So funny. !!! I am so tired of hearing the younger generation of men saying their role is to lead. Not a chance in hell. I don't want to lead, but no way in hll I am gonna follow either. lol

[LizBeth]

17. I dont disagree that there has been shift right by men and left by women

but I disagree on the reason. Since early 2000 pseudo science of men developed into the podcast of today what a man is suppose to do in order to get the woman. Men are swallowing red pill all over the place and it is causing the divide. The more women became equal in education, paying their way in life, not needing a man but for a relationship the more these men fought back asking for more and more extreme of merely being the provider (they are not) and the protector (they do not) and in order for women to acquire those necessities.... rolling eyes... women are to do all else like cooking cleaning children cause that is what our innate natures tell us.

What is the example of men? The one that does not fall for that biullshit, are happy and healthy and thriving relationships with wonder connection with their children. Total opposite of what these podcasts are saying.

What is the positive example of male masculinity from the right? Let me ask. Do we spend even an iota bit of our time trying to figure out what feminity is, teach our girls, trying to prove our femininity every second of every day, call our little girls, little women? No. lol.

Masculinity is a always changing construed idea of male that changes with time constantly cause it is not real. Being a man is his own definition of masculinity. Why the fuck do men have to have a definiti9on of what a man is?

Why don't you see the left defining their masculinity? They are not dumb shits needing to define it cause they are secure and confident in their manhood.

[LAS14]

20. We can't just rest on being the party of secure men.

"Why don't you see the left defining their masculinity? They are not dumb shits needing to define it cause they are secure and confident in their manhood."

But we may need a good chunk of the less secure young men to vote for Harris/Walz.

[LizBeth]

23. You seem to not even get close to the point. You cannot "define" masculinity.

It does not exist and why do you NEED a definition of what a man is? Doesn't that just sound silly to you that you need a list to know if you are man or not?

[Skittles]

24. yup

acts like "masculinity" means being a fucking snowflake

[SharonClark]

30. You think you're going to get that by

defining “masculinity” for them?

I’m uncomfortable with the whole Walz is an example of “masculinity” meme. What does that mean? That he is a “manly man” as opposed to a “girly man”?

Do you need a definition of “feminine” woman, too, because the right-wing has been defining that for centuries and not to our benefit.

I hate the whole discussion of masculine and feminine because it’s a trap based on stereotypes.

[LizBeth]

36. Exactly and women are clever enough having expoerienced men defining us... always

to know and see that trap and today more and more young women say no way. They are the ones not wanting to marry, and men are the ones saying they want it per study. So ask yourself why? Women just are not playing this game no mo.

[Think. Again.]

103. Thank you.

[Walleye]

18. A man who uses his strength to take responsibility rather than power

[LAS14]

21. Aha! Getting there!

You remind me of a news story I saw today, where some black official in Illinois (AG, maybe?) was speaking at a rally and urging black men not to think they're sacrificing their masculinity by supporting a black woman. I wish I could remember some of the other things he said.

[Walleye]

25. If men only knew how much that kind of support means to us

Support for women is very attractive in a man

[SharonClark]

42. So the speaker was telling them not to be

sexist dickheads?

[Skittles]

49. CORRECT!!!

[LizBeth]

51. That it is even being needed to be said they are not emasculated voting for a woman, and a black one at that

and to a BLACK community of black men!!!! There is a reason for that too. Oh my. So sad and embarrassing that it even needed to be said out loud. And that would be what a created masculinity has done, .... made it so very fragile and weak and silly.

[LizBeth]

26. How is that an iota bit of difference from femininity? I suppose next we will say strong

character, honesty, ethics. And what? Women are not? Leaders? And women are not? Give me one definition that also does not define a woman.

[SharonClark]

31. Thank you!

[Septua]

87. Good answer...

I would expand it to include showing strength and humility in success and failure. If you're successful, don't gloat, if you fail, accept it; don't whine or blame someone else.

And show respect to all who deserve it and never disrespect anyone just to make them look inferior.

My personal philosophy is to try to live by the Ten Commandments and The Golden Rule.

Some politicians break a Commandment multiple times every day, most often the one about bearing false witness.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We grew up in an environment where MEN ordained themselves to be in control, whether it was in the family or in business or in government. The male gender was accepted as the Macho gang who would forever rule the world. Times changed and macho went out of style. Some men accepted that, some didn't. For those who didn't, it's a personal problem. One of those things you can't fix.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My Wife and I married in 1968 and have been married ever since. It took me about 20 years to accept the fact but She has always been a bigger man than me. And I am not reluctant to tell Her that or anyone else.

[Clouds Passing]

27. Um....President Joe Biden!

[Attilatheblond]

29. your question: What would a leftist vision of positive masculinity look like?

Joe Biden
Tim Walz
Steve Kerr who hones young men's skills and builds character, like his college coach Lute Olsen did for him
most male teachers
the cops who help people in need
Firemen
Male Parmedics
Male nurses
Helpful men working in hardware stores who don't patronize women customers
Male school crossing guards
Male school bus drivers
Male scout leaders
Male guidance counselors
The male neighbors who shovel snow off sidewalks for elderly people & school kids walking to school
The guys in Santa suits, ringing bells to collect donations at Christmastime
The tow truck guy who stops to help someone out on his way home from work
The male veterinarian who tears up and tells a kid it's OK to cry when your dog dies
The neighbor who brings your trash barrel up from the street during inclement weather, or when you are on crutches
The farmer who drops off some eggs and veggies for an elderly person on a small pension
The male librarian who gets on the floor to read to toddlers so they will equate books to feeling safe and cared for
The man on a plane who will find a way to help amuse a fussy child and give its mom a break instead of griping at her.
The husband or boyfriend who really supports his lady's effort to learn and grow
The male janitors who clean schools and notice the kids who could use some emotional encouragement
The retired professors whose former students still stay in touch years & decades after they graduate

Oh, gee, there just aren't any examples, I guess.

[dobleremolque]

73. You left off Pete and Chasten Buttigieg. They're masculine and not toxically so. n/t

[Attilatheblond]

82. wasn't going personal names, but I agree with you. Those two men are top notch masculine and real mensch types.

[mathematic]

94. You'd be shocked to find out how many of those people vote for Republicans

This gets to the point of asking the question. If those "leftist" (not actually leftist, btw) examples of positive masculinity are voting for Republicans, what are they prioritizing? They just hate taxes or something? Why can't Democrats convince them to vote for them?

[Attilatheblond]

95. Not shocked at all. Well aware that GOP supporters are in many groups

But they seem to have the market cornered for overly rude, controlling, narrow minded and bigotry.

[LizBeth]

32. Let me give you an example I have had a blast with almost yr now. Swift/Kelce

First it was all Swift BF.... Swift putting him on the map. Didnt blink an eye. Did not bother him. Totally supportive, not intimidated by her money. Made a bracelet to see her and went to her concert. Dances where ever and has a blasts, drinks bud lite, got his covid shot, puts no one down. Doesnt like to kill things, loves cats and fluffy dogs. Cries all over the fuggin place, hugs kisses says love you to family and others. Has NO need to define his masculinity. Enthusiastically and with passion and outward excitement enjoys life. I mean, this man does not fall in line to their definition. I mean i watching him these last months the right is having such a tough time cause their big old bad footie footie football player doesn't give a flying fuck what anyone's says.

Apologizes to no one for his sensitivities.

That is what the positive masculinity is....

[Claustrum]

34. I feel like this idea falls into the trap of the right's idea of forming a preception of what a man and what a woman

do in society. It's not just toxic masculinity. It's also the "trad wife" model that they made for women as well.

We need to define it in our own terms, and that's by defining what being a good human being and a good partner is.

For example, being supportive of your partner and the decisions your partner makes with you. For some, it means the wife chooses to be a stay at home mom while the dad goes out to work to support the family financially. For others, it means the dad chooses to be a stay at hom dad and the mom goes to work to support the family financially. The worker dad is just as "masculine" as the stay at home dad because they are fullfilling the roles the family need.

You don't need a label of "family supporter" or "family protector" to be masculine.

[Think. Again.]

104. Well said.

I really don't think we need to revert to gender stereotyping to win this election.

[stopdiggin]

37. Excuse me, but - - Bull S___!!

The postulation (if you want to dignify it that much) that there are no visible examples of masculinity - beyond the 'toxic' variety - is just such a load of crap. Why would anybody validate this kind of nonsense with 'discussion'?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Over - and out!

[LizBeth]

41. Here is another I just LOVE.... We call our little two year olds, little men. Dad leaves the house

and the little wo yr old told he is the "man" of the house now and need to protect mom and sister. I mean what a living fuck? lmao. I never allowed that the many many times someone would call my boys, men.... I would say, no... they are boys. And no, my kid son is nOT going to be the adult to my adult taking care of me. I mean how stupid is this. Now a step further.....

We are told we need to do this to protect male masculinity. As a little girl we were taught we have to coddle, stroke masculinity cause we did not want to emasculate. I mean.... it is so sensitive and precious. I really want people to consider this need to have so much focus from the time they are infants into adulthood protecting the ever fragile, sensitive masculinity that is suppose to be all about strength.

[SharonClark]

45. You must be my sister from another mother.

I’ve always thought that as well.

[LizBeth]

52. Isn't it just so fuckin stupid and men take it so seriously, and I am all like.... NO!!!!

I am the mom, he does what I say. Lol.

[Attilatheblond]

57. Tell it!

[niyad]

46. Just as a matter of curiosity, why does The Left have to do everything?

[calimary]

60. That's a good question.

[tenderfoot]

50. Why don't you tell us?

Or isn't there anyone on the right that can be cited as a "positive" example.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

53. What is the opposite of Rush Limbaugh?

Empathetic? worldly? Truly patriotic?

[LizBeth]

54. Except that is women too. I guess they need to find adjectives that ONLY define them and to that,

I say good luck buddy cause what I said from the very beginning.... cannot be done, does not exist. lol

Now seriously, I am coming in here to say, unless you raise your sons to see the foolishness in all this and they chose to define their own masculinity their way, ....

We are conditioning ALL our boys to believe their is a specific definition and we are failing them miserably in exactly this, trying to define their masculinity thru a warped society and does none of them a favor.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

89. toxic masculinity nails them.

They need to detox. Get rid of nasty toxins. Feel better. Be better. A complete man.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-to-detox-your-body

[claudette]

55. What would "negative"

masculinity be in your opinion? What about homosexual men? Are they not “masculine” enough for you??? Every single liberal man I know is of perfect character and doesn’t need to be DEFINED by anyone but himself.

[Hekate]

58. Barack Obama was not adequate? Was it the tan suit?

I think young men & adolescents need to put down their electronic umbilical cords and get acquainted with real humans.

[LizBeth]

62. OMgosh, the tan suit took down the manly snowflakes. lol

[viva la]

63. Obama? Young, dynamic, handsome, sank that three-pointer?

Bruce Springsteen? Not a candidate, but a very vocal supporter of progressive causes and Dem candidates.

Who are the GOP "masculines"? Trump? Kid Rock? Hulk Hogan?

[viva la]

65. As David French points out, the GOP go with the low and vulgar and violent as "masculine"--

It becomes even stranger to claim that Christians can’t vote for Democrats when the prime-time lineup at the Republican convention featured an OnlyFans star, a man who publicly slapped his wife, a man who pleaded no contest to an assault charge, and another man who had sex with his friend’s wife while the friend watched — and that’s not even including any reference to Trump himself.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/11/opinion/harris-trump-conservatives-abortion.html?unlocked_article_code=1.CE4.4ekH.xO1kBzg_QfHF&smid=url-share

[LizBeth]

64. I see your edit. Asking for description. It cannot be done.

Anything given is a woman too. ANYTHING. I have been asking for two decades and all given, women are too. Isn't it the shit to learn, men are no more special than a woman.

[Lunabell]

67. Positive masculinity:

Using your greater physical strength and increased logical thinking to protect, honor and support rather than to dominate, abuse and take advantage of women. Using your logical thinking to realize that women are different from but not less than men. To accept that our nature is just as important and valuable.

[LizBeth]

72. Men are more logical than women? Where did my logic go. I always had such an abundance.

Was always my strength and help with that pesky problem solving. Did I read that incorrectly?

[Lunabell]

83. Well, talk to researchers,not me.

I didn't do all the studies that show men are more right brained than women. There are always exceptions. I was bigger and stronger than my first husband.

[LizBeth]

84. I think if you will google are men more logical you will find a lot of data to contradict

but I got out of this gender difference crap yrs ago.... But no, not really was the bottom line. But thank you for the opportunity to do a quick research to validate.

[elias7]

86. I think its more left brained for men

Which is the logical reasoning math side. I always admired more right brained people as being more creative, emotionally together. There may be gender differences similar to two very overlapping bell shaped curves, so that more men are more left brained dominant and more women are right brained dominant, but like height and strength, there’s plenty of overlap.

[Oneironaut]

115. Tbh most if not all of this is due to socialization.

There’s no proof men and women are more or less logical, creative, etc. because of brain structure differences.

[Oneironaut]

114. "Right" and "left" brainedness is a myth, fyi.

We use our entire brains.

Well, most of us (non-Trump voters).

[whathehell]

68. ..being a conscious and decent human being?

You know..The same as Positive Femininity?

[Sympthsical]

69. This isn't the place for that conversation

It's just not. I and others have tried.

It always goes down this exact road.

Have the conversation with offline friends. It goes so much better.

[ecstatic]

71. If you don't like the answers why not provide an example yourself

There is no shortage of positive masculine figures in the Democratic party's elected/appointed officials as well supporters. And they don't all fit into one box or one stereotype.

How would you describe the following men in words:

Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Tim Walz, Gavin Newsom, Jon Ossoff, Lawrence O'Donnell, Al Sharpton, Cory Booker, Wes Moore, Eric Swalwell, Jon Tester, George Clooney, Josh Shapiro, Mark Kelly, etc

For one, a lot of Democratic men are not insecure or self-hating, which makes this entire conversation ironic. Why would a guy need an example of male masculinity to make a decision about which party will help his family and the country the most? Is the thought process: Oh, he's cute and buff, so I guess I better vote MAGA? Seriously... I'm really confused right now.

I think the better question is, who are the supposed positive masculine figures in the republican party?

[Bev54]

74. Role models on the left are everywhere, there is Biden, Obama, and Walz and many many more.

[usonian]

75. A real man possesses both strength and compassion.

He raises others up, where small men try to cut others down to their miserable size. He projects the four great virtues of loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity, where others project their weaknesses and failures onto everyone else.

[meadowlander]

77. Masculinity is a pointless social construct.

How about we all, regardless of our bits -

1. don't tear other groups of people down to make yourself feel big

2. respect other peoples' boundaries

3. listen to and treat other people with respect no matter what they look like

That solves the whole problem.

[OldBaldy1701E]

91. Hear Hear! (n/t)

[eallen]

78. What virtues are distinctly masculine?

Bravery? No, I think it is a virtue in women, also. Protecting their family? Well, again.

When I run down the list, I don't find any virtue that is distinctly masculine.

Maybe the question is wrong.

[LAS14]

93. Yeah.

Part of the challenge is that progressives value the idea that men and women can all share in all characteristics, except the most basically physical. It's the right's emphasis on the difference in the sexes that lets them craft a message. Nevertheless, sort of using the right's categories I came up with, "Brave, compassionate,

[LizBeth]

100. No... They say leader, strong, protector, integrity ect.... they just IGNORE that women

too have all the same characteristics and take ownership like everything else.

WOmen are brave and compassionate.

[Sky Jewels]

116. You think "compassionate" is associated with masculinity?

Really?!

I guess I have experienced a vastly different world than you have.

[LAS14]

120. No. I think it SHOULD be associated with masculinity. Which is not to say...

... that it should be disassociated from feminity. I got stuck on that for a while, and then I realized that ALL non-physical traits can apply to both sexes. It's a matter of focus.

[rockbluff botanist]

81. And they wonder why quality women shun them

Mother Nature will take care of it. They'll die as lonely, bitter old men. Good riddance.

[LudwigPastorius]

99. What would a leftist vision of positive masculinity look like?

It would look like Barack Obama...a man who tries to build bridges between people (community organizer), a man who isn't afraid to stand up and fight for those with less (ACA, Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, Consumer Protection Act, Matthew Shepard Act, etc.), a man who is an equal partner with his spouse, and who raised two wonderful young women.

[Think. Again.]

101. Why do you feel that reverting to gender stereotyping is necessary to win this election??

[wryter2000]

102. As a woman, I could be totally wrong

But it seems to me that men are uncomfortable discussing toxic masculinity because they see any discussion as an accusation that they have a problem with it. It's the same sort of thing when white people feel they are being blamed for slavery when they, obviously, never enslaved anyone.

[PeaceWave]

107. It's impossible for a man to answer this question without being accused of "mansplaining."

I wish this was sarcasm. Unfortunately, it is not.

[LiberaBlueDem]

108. You want toxic?

How about nuclear weapons?

Nothing and no one is more toxic.

[ForgedCrank]

109. I am

who I am. I don't need the party or anyone else to tell me what I should be or how I should behave.
And I don't give a single shit what anyone else thinks of me outside of my family.

[niyad]

110. PLEASE!!! Enough already! How about we STOP letting the rwnj's set the terms

that we just absolutely feel we MUST respond to?? Toxic masculinity? Femininity? How about plain HUMAN beings? Please name ONE SINGLE TRAIT (not biological function), that is intrinsically, not culturally, intrinsically, male or female, and explain why. Oh, and by the way, some scientists say that there are at least ten genders, so the whole feminine/masculine binary and its subsidiaries is basically useless.

How about we stop wasting time on this reichwing disraction, and deal with actual issues? Because time waster and distraction is exactly what this is.

[haele]

111. The problem is that the wealthy and celebrities get away with being bullies...

There's no consequence for being a bully. There's very few consequences for cheating, in business, in sports....
They call it "competition", when it isn't; it's cheating, or extortion, or hostile takeovers.
The wealthy, the politicians, the celebrities can brag about lying or cheating the system and destroying people with less power than them, and a parasitical media will fawn over how clever they are. Smart they aren't. But clever, like criminals are.

The ideas of civility, consequences or cooperation are quaint, and young men who see opportunities disappearing are prime targets for the glittering braggidacio, cynicism and casual cruelty that is the modern authoritarian. It's not "video games", it's credit scores and layoffs. It's the constant ghosting and lying about reasons you "didn't get the job". It's "Human Resources" verses Personnel. It's mass evictions to turn rental properties into VBROs and luxury homes. It's the War on Drugs and "qualified immunity" for poorly vetted police officers to harass, steal or murder so long as there's some possible excuse and it's not blatantly criminal.

Andy Griffith was shot in the back by the likes of Ronald Reagan and Antonin Scalia.
And corporate owned politics and media didn't blink an eye, because it makes them money and keeps the peasants in line.

Okay, here's my thoughts on the situation based on historical observations - because this is not really anything new -

Young men are a target because 1. they're stronger than young women and 2. If they aren't allowed a wide range of education and opportunities to actually make a positive impact in their communities when they're young, they're more likely to act out in a rage on other people for what little power they can get, including rape and torture.

From what I've observed In nihilistic or authoritarian groups, when surrounded by objectification, rage and frustration, females will typically torture or murder themselves, while males will typically torture and murder others. The male/female difference may be because the greater strength enables survival when striking out at an physically weaker person or object to gain a modicum of power.

The only reason that young women are not yet falling into the funk of nihilism is that they are still pretty much on an upward track when it comes to opportunities; at the social level they're still rising to an equal level with others in their age cohort, and it continues to push one forward considering your mom and grandma didn't have the same opportunities you do.

Once they don't have to keep fighting for equal footing, they'll be subject to the same types hindrances and loss of opportunities as the rest of the population.

Or rather, if the Talibornagain has their way, once they're beaten down after being "put back in their place", one will see a return to the same defeated stifled rage and self-harm that defeated women on in my mother's generation suffered from.

Haele

[GenThePerservering]

117. Getting tired of this trope that women are

physically "weak" - we need to stop propagating this. Strength is relative - for example, a man can be easily disabled by a few simple, easily learned, street fighting tactics. What defeats us is NOT weakness, but our perception of weakness.

[CBHagman]

118. I don't buy the notion that "the right has a story to tell" or...

...that "the left has no discernible vision of positive masculinity." I don't start off with the notion that the right is so good at this and we're so bad at it.

[GenThePerservering]

119. Agree

The left has a vision of positive masculinity. It's part of what it is.

Though I understand good examples for boys and young men (young people, really), this particular concept just sounds like more hand wringing on the part of the left.

[LAS14]

122. I'm going to see what Obama is thinking regarding this subject.

This is on his summer reading list.

Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why it Matters, and What to Do about it.
by Richard Reeves

[BluesRunTheGame]

123. Reeves is the #1 guy on this subject!

Lots of videos on YouTube. Video presentations, talks and interviews.