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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAre the so-called Palestinian protestors supporting Palestinians or are they just supporting the convicted felon?
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mucifer
(25,667 posts)I REALLY don't trust the press in how they will handle this.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)I am heartily sick of them. What good do they do? They give Hamas cover...remember way back when? Hamas started this by attacking Israel...why no sympathy for the Israelis who died? Some were burned alive...hostages have died in custody too. I am not willing to allow Hamas to wipe out Israel.
Oopsie Daisy
(6,670 posts)They're nothing more than mouthpieces for Hamas.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...would you go to a guy down the block mowing his lawn?
Rightwingers have no intention of listening to issues that concern anyine except their lobbyists.
Why would anyone waste time protesting to a group that will definitely not hear them?
Edit to add;
Is this really the best time to amplify division on the Left?
Happy Hoosier
(9,533 posts)They are threatening to burn the building down.
As to your last question: No. But point that out to the protesting pro-Hamas types.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...from the only people who represent them to use their power to save lives and stop violence.
Happy Hoosier
(9,533 posts)We've bumped heads on this topic before and it is unlikely we will agree.
I think their position is grotesquely irresponsible given the stakes.
PeaceWave
(3,383 posts)
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)uponit7771
(93,532 posts)
wnylib
(26,008 posts)pro Palestine protesters pushing divisions on the Left with their protests against Harris?
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)And they feel Kamala is their only hope for this to end. Her own stepdaughter was helping raise funds for Gaza on Instagram.
The images have increased and are more brutal than ever and now we have dead 4 day old twins whose apt was targeted - many believe because the mother was a doctor who was posting about more kids coming into the hospital with gun shots to the head.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)If there are children with gunshots to the head, it's entirely possible that Hamas is doing it.
People who drove nails into people's genitals and raped and murdered them in front of their children might do such a thing.
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)Gang raping Palestinians.
BBC - “ A two-year-old Palestinian boy has died four days after being shot in the head by Israeli forces.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65812442
BBC - “ Israeli forces shoot dead 12-year-old Palestinian who set off firework”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68557147
“ Palestinian children killed by Israeli forces in Jenin
This is the moment two children were shot by Israeli soldiers during a raid in Jenin in the occupied West Bank. An 8-year-old boy was shot in the head and a teenager in the chest. Israel had declared the area a closed military zone.”
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/11/29/two-palestinian-children-killed-by-israeli-forces-in-jenin
Etc etc - I could go on forever with these posts
Also, So many West Bank videos on Twitter of military abusing young children while they drag them away to who knows where.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Hamas committed gang rapes. Where are links to videos of rapes committed by IDF?
The other incidents don't match your claims either. It's a war zone. Why would anybody set off fireworks? .
Mosby
(19,491 posts)questionseverything
(11,836 posts)elias7
(4,229 posts)A soldier certainly may have been threatened in a war zone by a 12 year old, who is not small and who is dressed in a face covering waving a stick with a flame or fuse on the end.
Etc. etc.
Your are giving a play by play of an actual war and horrified by it. Good for you. But you’re only covering one side and they have a long history of suicide bombings (you know, like 9/11) and lying about most everything.
With regard to raping, the only people who have done any mass raping have been Hamas, who recorded it and broadcasted on their GoPro cameras for everyone to see, although now, since there’s too much cognitive dissonance to see that those you hold us as freedom fighters are sadistic a-holes using sexual terror as a weapon and then lying about it, the pro-Palestinians have no choice but to deny that sexual assault of young Israeli girls happened and so now absurdly accuse IDF of the same thing. Kind of like the Trump projection syndrome.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)News of torture, rapes and gang rapes of Palestinian prisoners, to the point of severe injury, are being reported. The US. has expressed deep concern.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna165811
https://archive.is/Fauh9
https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19340495
Good primer on the use of sexual and gender-based violence by Israel. It cites the recent B'tselem report.
You may not read any of it, but here it is for anyone interested. It's pretty awful.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Unlike with Hamas rapes, there is actually existing video evidence of the gang rape in one of these torture camps.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)Unlike with Hamas rapes, where extensive volume of evidence of hundreds of gang rapes and torture exist, there is only one existing video evidence of the gang rape. The bulk of your links address just this one incident, and allegations of more rapes in Sde Teiman, the only facility in question.
And in this facility, there isn't even a single allegation of IDF being involved. As per one of your sources, the alleged perpetrators were identified as auxiliary police, not IDF, and if you have paid attention, nine of them have been identified and ar being investigated for the alleged rapes, including the one documented in the video.
Also, as per your Wikipedia source, full of allegations but short on evidence, "The US said it could not independently confirm independently earlier reports of sexual abuse in the UN report from February, and Israel criticized the report as biased.", and "In late March 2024, Al Jazeera reported in its live blog on an allegation against the IDF of committing rape at Shifa Hospital. The story was based on a testimony from Jamila al-Hessi, a Gazan woman, who said she had seen IDF soldiers "raping women then killing them and burning entire families alive." These reports quickly gained international attention and provoked widespread condemnation. However, it was subsequently reported that an investigation by Hamas determined that her allegations were false."
So, there is no evidence of IDF soldiers engaging in rapes, let alone gang rapes, and not even close to the kinds of mass rapes evidently committed by Hamas, and the only people who have done any mass raping have been Hamas.
Just as elias7 stated. 100% accurate.
But keep your blinders handy, there is a lot to be overlooked, deflected and outright denied to pretend that comparisons between IDF and Hamas are halfass justified.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)"Unlike with Hamas, where extensive volume of evidence of hundreds of gang rapes and torture exist..."
There isn't even one piece of actual evidence.of even one rape, let alone "extensive volume" of hundreds of gang rapes. There are allegations made by a handful of people who claim to be witnesses to these rapes. Perhaps if Israel had permitted the proper investigatory agency to actually investigate, there may have been evidence discovered.
I am not disputing that rape occurred; I am disputing your statement that there is an "extensive volume" of evidence to back it up.
You are incorrect that the perpetrators at Sde Teiman were auxiliary police. All the sources states they were 9 IDF reservists. You may have confused it with the identity of the victim, who is a policeman in Gaza.
From the NBC article, bolding mine:
Allegations of the sexual abuse of Palestinian prisoners by members of the Israeli military are “horrific,” the United States has said, after a graphic video broadcast on Israeli news added fuel to mounting criticism of the U.S. ally’s conduct in the war in Gaza.
Earlier this week, State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller responded to a question about a video shown on Israel’s Channel 12, the country’s most watched commercial station, that alleged to show the abuse of a Palestinian man at Sde Teiman, a military facility where thousands of Palestinians have been detained since October.
“We have seen the video, and reports of sexual abuse of detainees are horrific,” Miller said, adding that the reports should be “fully” investigated by the Israeli government
“There ought to be zero tolerance for sexual abuse, rape of any detainee, period,” he added.
The White House also called the reports of rape, torture and abuse “deeply, deeply concerning.”
*snip*
On Thursday, the Israel Defense Forces confirmed that five soldiers remain in detention for allegations of “serious abuse,” and the investigation is ongoing.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-sexual-abuse-palestinian-prisoners-rcna165811
From the wiki article:
In late July, a Palestinian prisoner in Sde Teiman was hospitalised with a ruptured bowel and a severe injury to his anus. He had also suffered from lung damage and broken ribs. A doctor from the detention camp reported that the prisoner sustained "a ruptured bowel, severe injuries to his anus, lung damage, and broken ribs". [41]
According to the IDF, nine soldiers faced accusations of severe sodomy, inflicting serious bodily harm, aggravated abuse, and unprofessional conduct.[42] Subsequently, nine Israeli reservists, including a major, were arrested on suspicion they had sodomized him and suspicion of mistreating the detainee. Protestors, including Knesset members, broke into the base where the reservists were being detained, demanding their release.[43][44][45][46]
On August 6, Israel's Channel 12 broadcast a leaked surveillance video from Sde Teiman, which allegedly depicted Israeli soldiers gang-raping a Palestinian prisoner.[47] Israeli lawmakers condemned the video leak, with Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich calling for an "immediate criminal investigation" to uncover the source of the leak, and describing the video as having "hugely damaged Israel internationally".[48] UN special rapporteur on torture. Alice Jill Edwards, condemned the video and the surrounding case calling it "particularly gruesome" and called for the perpetrators to be held accountable.[49] When asked directly about the video, US State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller, stated that the US government was aware and had seen the video and had called for a full investigation as there should be zero tolerance for sexual abuse or rape of any detainee.[50]
It's horrible. I wish it weren't so.
Around 50 people have died in detention at these prisons since Oct. 7th. I read that the IDF has opened criminal investigations. We shall see what comes of them.
If you respond, pls try to be respectful or its no-go going forward.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)I's hard to tell when you are in denial of the source you never questioned before:
Official visit of the Office of the SRSG-SVC to Israel and the occupied West Bank
29 January – 14 February 2024
This report has been edited for the sake of its distribution to the public. Sensitive information
shared with the United Nations on a confidential basis has been withheld to respect the privacy,
safety and security of those who engaged with the mission team. In line with a survivor/victim-
centered approach, findings are conveyed in generic terms and details are not revealed
--snip--
6. The attacks resulted in approximately 1,200 fatalities 2 and thousands of injuries,
predominantly among civilians. Based on information reviewed by the team, people were shot,
often at close range; burnt alive in their homes as they tried to hide in their safe rooms; gunned
down or killed by grenades in bomb shelters where they sought refuge; and hunted down on the
Nova music festival site as well as in the fields and roads adjacent to the festival ground. Other
violations included sexual violence, abduction of hostages and corpses, the public display of
captives, both dead and alive, the mutilation of corpses, including decapitation, and the looting
and destruction of civilian property. A total of 253 individuals, including some deceased, were
taken as hostages.
--snip--
12. Based on the information gathered by the mission team from multiple and independent
sources, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred
during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and
gang rape, in at least three locations. Across the various locations of the 7 October attacks, the
mission team found that several fully naked or partially naked bodies from the waist down were
recovered – mostly women – with hands tied and shot multiple times, often in the head.
Although circumstantial, such a pattern of undressing and restraining of victims may be
indicative of some forms of sexual violence.
13. At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, there are reasonable grounds to believe
that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or
gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped. Credible sources described finding
murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were naked from their waist down – and
some totally naked – tied with their hands behind their backs, many of whom were shot in the
head. On Road 232, credible information based on witness accounts describe an incident of the
rape of two women by armed elements. Other reported instances of rape could not be verified in
the time allotted. The mission team also found a pattern of bound naked or partially naked bodies
from the waist down, in some cases tied to structures including trees and poles, along Road 232.
In kibbutz Re’im, the mission team further verified an incident of the rape of a woman outside of
a bomb shelter and heard of other allegations of rape that could not yet be verified.
14. The mission team conducted a visit to kibbutz Be’eri and was able to determine that at
least two allegations of sexual violence widely repeated in the media, were unfounded due to
either new superseding information or inconsistency in the facts gathered. These included a
highly publicized allegation of a pregnant woman whose womb had reportedly been ripped open
before being killed, with her fetus stabbed while still inside her. Other allegations, including of
objects intentionally inserted into female genital organs, could not be verified by the mission
team due in part to limited and low-quality imagery.
15. In kibbutz Kfar Aza, while reports of conflict-related sexual violence, including at least
one instance of rape, could not be verified, available circumstantial evidence may be indicative
of some forms of sexual violence. In this kibbutz, similarly to other locations, female victims
were found fully or partially naked to the waist down with their hands tied behind their backs
and shot.
16. In the Nahal Oz military base, the mission team reviewed reports of sexual violence
including a case of rape and genital mutilation, neither of which could be verified. With respect
to the latter instance, while the forensic analysis reviewed injuries to intimate body parts, no
discernible pattern could be identified, against either female or male soldiers. However, seven
female soldiers were abducted from this base into Gaza.
17. With respect to hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information that
some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and
sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has
reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.
--snip--
26. The applicable standard of proof adopted by the mission team is one of “reasonable
grounds to believe,” consistent with the practice of investigative bodies, including those
established by the UN Security Council and Human Rights Council. The conclusions of the
mission team on how to meet the applicable standard of proof were based, in line with the
practices of these mechanisms, on “its own assessment of the credibility and reliability of the
witnesses it met, verifying the sources and the methodology used in the reports and documents
produced by others, cross-referencing the relevant material and information, and assessing
whether, in all the circumstances, there was sufficient credible and reliable information […] to
make a finding in fact”4 as to an incident, pattern, or trend of conflict-related sexual violence.
27. Although the primary standard of proof in this report is one of “reasonable grounds to
believe,” there have been occasions where more information has supported a finding of fact, and
the overall finding has therefore been stated to be established at the level of “clear and
convincing” information.
Unless you claim with a serious face that this report is 100% without basis, I rest my case.
By all means, carry on with the deflecting.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)We were talking about the abuse of prisoners at Israeli prisons, remember?
Try to focus, ok?
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)And I am quoting you:
Reply to Beastly Boy (Reply #114)
Sat Aug 17, 2024, 09:30 PM
"Unlike with Hamas, where extensive volume of evidence of hundreds of gang rapes and torture exist..."
There isn't even one piece of actual evidence.of even one rape, let alone "extensive volume" of hundreds of gang rapes. There are allegations made by a handful of people who claim to be witnesses to these rapes. Perhaps if Israel had permitted the proper investigatory agency to actually investigate, there may have been evidence discovered.
This fundamentally false statement, which you are now overlooking in its entirety, had been so thoroughly debunked that I found it unnecessary to address the rest of your post.
But if you insist: the sources you are referring to are mutually contradictory at best.
One, an IDF soldier, who is thoroughly acquainted with the differences between an IDF uniform and that of the police, identifies the suspects as auxiliary police. The other, not an eyewitness, who is a journalist who until recently was based in Manila and Bangkok and now lives in London (https://www.aurora-almendral.com/about), and likely never met an Isreli in either an IDF or a police uniform, identifies the suspects as "members of Israeli military", and claims, without citing the source, that IDF "confirmed that five soldiers remain in detention".
Upon examining your Wikipedia article, all the the references to "soldiers" in the original sources cited by the article turn out to identify them as "reservists", or not identify them at all. And, as per another Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_duty_(Israel)#:~:text=All%20Israelis%20under%20the%20age%20of%2040%20who,obligation%20upon%20the%20birth%20of%20their%20first%20child.), "Since 2001 reserve duty is also performed in the Israel Border Police units", which, naturally, does not exclude any references to "soldiers" to mean auxiliary police forces.
But please go on: your point was... what, exactly? As I recall, it was something about deflecting.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)AkFemDem
(2,508 posts)Jewish women and men who survived the initial onslaught or were taken prisoner and since escaped or were released and shared the most painful, traumatic of stories which included sexual assault. You believe Jews are liars, right? You believe Hamas is a warm fuzzy loving organization that would welcome you with open arms if you walked to them with a bouquet of flowers.
I hope you do just that.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)I said nothing of the sort. I will respond to you and Beastly Boy when time permits, later today.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)As it seems you wish me ill, I will not be further responding to you.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)wnylib
(26,008 posts)are targeting the Harris campaign.
If they think that she is the only who will deal with it, they are shooting themselves in the foot by working against her campaign and dividing the Left. If Trump wins, he will support Netanyahu's complete takeover of Gaza. He will also deport Palestinians and Muslims from the US and use violenice against protesters in the US regardless of ethnicity or citizenship status.
Hamas is a terrorist dictatorship that terrorizes its own people and uses them as fodder in the war. Civilian deaths would be substantially decreased if Hamas fought the war openly.
The claim that the dead children or their mother were deliberately targeted because the mother was posting about child victims in the war is bogus propaganda that Hamas puts out to gain support for their terrorist cause. Israel targets Hamas wherever they are.
BannonsLiver
(20,589 posts)Maybe volunteering for the campaign would be a better use of their time.
edisdead
(3,396 posts)Once she is elected then they pressure her for more support.
If she doesn’t get elected they are fucked!
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)Hamas...they want us to stand by and let them kill all the Israelis...not happening. I guess like the American Jewish kids who were harassed and threatened by these protestors Israel must allow their own demise- a small sacrifice- for the sin of being Jewish Am I right? 
Hamas started it. But Jewish Babies and women no loss, right? , Certainly, that is how some of the protesters and Hamas feel. Hamas has not tried to find any solution...and now Iran is saying without an agreement, they will attack. I hate Netanyahu -. He must go. But I despise the protesters and hate Hamas too. I believe Netanyahu is a war criminal and should be prosecuted. Still, I don't support anti-semitic protesters who caused harm to American Jewish kids just trying to go to college.
Jk23
(455 posts)Long before Israel even reacted to Gaza celebrating the rape and murder of concert goals declaring them as hipsters.
This simply has to do with the hatred of Israel and Jews. Sadly many of the people celebrating the rape and murder of women in the October 8th protests were a long time BLM activists.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)They are responsible.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)Hamas...all of this nonsense prolongs the war.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)And if we think it's wrong of them to do that, we should not do it also.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)Does anyone really think that Democrats are going to listen to the Hamas point of view? Are pro-terrorist marchers "part of the left?"
Harlem, NY
Brooklyn, NY
Washington, DC
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...so I will step away.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)People who create spectacles like this intend division, and escalate provocations till people do look, even if they do so in the spirit of rubberneckers passing slow by a wreck on the highway.
Anyone serious about easing divisions on the left will need to recognize that this issue does not divide people on clean left/right lines, and that it is beyond bullshit to make adherence to some genuinely weird ideas, held over from the Cold War among leftists of the academy, be the test of whether someone is a person on the left, or is someone participating in history's greatest crime. The idea that to be a 'true' leftist one must participate in the propaganda apparatus of a movement of murderous fanatics whose intent is establishing a theocratic state, one whose acts will be contrary to everything leftists promote in their own countries is, put bluntly, insane. It draws out the popular quotation of Orwell...
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool."
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...than to bitch is amplifying division at a time when our candidates are calling for unity.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)The bad behavior of the provocateur is not the problem, that is a fact of nature: it is the reaction of the provoked which is the problem, surely they can handle this better? You set up a one way ratchet, in which one side need never concede, and the other always must. In our nation's politics, bipartisan unity seems always to require Democrats accede to Republican desires, or at least to forego their own. In politics on the left, one need only swap in 'left persons attempting some form of single-issue blackmail' for 'Republicans', and 'the people who the Party can rely on to vote for its candidates' for 'Democrats' to see: same tune, different key.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)Making this a topic of discussion with no other purpose than to bitch is amplifying division at a time when our candidates are calling for unity.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)And who are just as happy to assail some random Jew who's caught their eye.
Do keep us posted....
"Remember, if it's not from the Nuremberg region, it's just sparkling Anti-Zionism'."
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)..."Hamas Supporters Assailing Democratic Candidates"
Perhaps you could try the rightwing chat boards?
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)
PufPuf23
(9,852 posts)or anti actions of Israel supporters without being labeled as pro-Hamas or antisemitic or being threatened with harm or harmed.
Odd seeing so many Democrats supporting actions of the current rightwing Israeli government.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)You see above people who make no bones about their support of Hamas, they fly the banners and chant the slogans, they don't hide it they proclaim it.
Yet somehow this does not indicate to you support for Hamas, oh heavens no --- it's just opposition to Israeli actions.
And yet, to you, people who point out that the demonstrators actually do support Hamas, who point out that generally, when the Israeli armed forces say they attacked combatants, combatants actually were there, people who point out Hamas has no more interest in peace than Netanyahu, well --- these people are obviously full-throated supporters of Likud, and in your view really shouldn't be on a Democratic forum. Clearly, a Democratic forum should host only people happy to cheer on demonstrations attacking Democratic candidates from a posture of support for Hamas, and its Iranian backers.
"Remember, if it's not from the Nuremberg region, it's just sparkling Anti-Zionism."
PufPuf23
(9,852 posts)That is the truth.
Have watched many on TV and the internet but never known nor have spoken to someone pro-Hamas.
Save for cancer surgery in 2020, have not been to a city since 2003, and live by myself where most would consider deep in the mountains and lacking in modern convenience.
I have not attacked any Democratic candidates and do not support the pro-Hamas protesters. Read my posts at DU. I do not support all of the actions of Israel and violence in general. I question the motives of Hamas and Israeli.
Why are you falsely making up what is in my head?
I am majorly happy with Harris/Walz though my heart skipped a beat when POTUS Biden decided not to run for a second term.
What happened to change your mind? October 7?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5327270
To quote The Magistrate:
"There is absolutely no reason to believe that a Likud government in Israel is any more interested in peace with the people of Arab Palestine than the leadership and militants of Hamas are in peace with Israel.
It has been evident for some years the actual policy of the present government of Israel is one of de facto annexation of the portions of the Jordan valley over-run in '67, or in short, a policy of 'one land between the river and the sea', without great dissimilarity to the banner the most militant of Arab Palestinians fly. There would be some difference in detail of outcome; a Hamas victory would be accompanied by massacre and rapid flight, a Likud victory would feature less immediate killing and a more gradual departure of the defeated, but these are differences of style and sophistication more than differences of kind. Both sides at present are aiming for a peace of victory, in which the defeated can have no part or presence. Partisans on both sides need to understand this, and to face up to it squarely, particularly when engaged in slanging the character and motive of their opponents.
At some point in a fight, one must begin to assess capabilities as well as motives, to examine whether one or another of the parties are capable of doing what they clearly intend. The fact that someone, even an obviously angry someone, has shouted 'I'll kill you!' does not really justify my breaking his arm and several ribs, especially if he is not actually armed with more than a pocket knife and spotting me thirty pounds of muscle and a half foot in reach and many years of practice. If I did something like that, I would not expect a police sergeant surveying the scene to believe I was really in fear for my life, and would expect to be arrested and face some charge greater than misdemeanor battery.
It is a fact that Hamas lacks the capability to do serious harm to Israel, let alone destroy Israel, and that is so even if it intends to destroy Israel and its leaders and militants go to sleep each night dreaming of destroying Israel.
It is a fact that Israel does have the capability to maintain occupation of the Cis-Jordan indefinitely, and has the capability to complete its de facto annexation of that area, and constriction of the existence of its Arab population to the point the bulk of them give it up and depart.
Success in the latter endeavor is no more right and just than success in the former."
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)I treated you as the focus for making a general comment. I hope the surgery achieved remission.
You are right in suggesting what was done by Hamas on October 7 last has altered my view. Hamas has demonstrated itself able to do real harm, harm it was not capable of a decade ago. Having given now a fully realized demonstration of its intentions and capabilities, Hamas cannot be permitted to continue. This is so no matter what the character of Israel's government is at the moment. Liberation movements hold no copyright on the slogan 'by any means necessary', a state assailed is free to employ it, and act on it, without permission or payment of any royalty. I accept Israel will do what it deems necessary to liquidate Hamas, and have not yet seen its military do anything materially in excess of what strikes me as necessary to the aim. That this entails terrible suffering, and heart-wrenching instances of pain and loss, is something common to all wars, not something peculiar to this one.
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)A fact blissfully ignored by some.
I don't remember all this being called "Genocide", just "war":
According to the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University, over 432,000 civilians have died as a direct result of the U.S. post-9/11 wars, and an estimated 3.6-3.8 million people have died indirectly. This brings the total death toll to at least 4.5-4.7 million people.
PufPuf23
(9,852 posts)EX500rider
(12,581 posts)Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)lapucelle
(21,061 posts)We need to put as much real estate as possible between the Democratic Party and the chaos agents wearing Hamas headbands, hoisting Hamas and Houthi flags, carrying mock-ups of President Biden's bloody, severed head, and painting red triangles on the front doors of prominent Brooklyn Jews.
They are not equal opportunity pro-terrorist miscreants. They target our Party because they want our Party to lose.
Any bullshit narrative that they only protest Democratic events because they seek redress that only Democrats can give needs to be shut down. It doesn't track.
We are a big tent, but we are not the Party of terrorist sympathizers and anti-Semites.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...the division of DUers.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)I don't see why condemning yesterday's pro-Hamas / anti-Harris-Walz protest in Harlem would cause division on DU, obvious or otherwise.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)lapucelle
(21,061 posts)Is the contention that there are pro-Hamas / anti-Harris-Walz members here?
Is the claim that marching to Harlem to disrupt a Democratic Party event launching the campaign of the woman they call "Killer Kamala" wearing Hamas headbands, holding framed pictures of Sinwar aloft, shrieking "Intifada! Intifada!", and throwing smoke bombs is a "peaceful anti-war protest"?
These folks are not Democrats, and they are not our allies.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)As far as I am concerned... there are always those on the fringe who try to take down our party. They will not succeed.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...sowing division here within this entire thread, but yes, some progressives win and some lose, I agree.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)in 68 they don't help at all. Progressives are not winning on this issue...and I believe this merely hinders peace. Consider with all the carrying on and Johnson forced out of the presidential race... and all the protests...Richard Nixon won and the war continued until 73. Those protests did not good. Imagine what a legislator like Johnson could have done wth four more years. He gave us Medicaid and the civil rights act.
Cha
(319,067 posts)Those two respective primaries made my day! 
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)BannonsLiver
(20,589 posts)
RAB910
(4,030 posts)Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)I disagree.
LeftInTX
(34,286 posts)They wanted to teach Shimon Peres a lesson.
They did not teach Peres a lesson. They ushered in Bibi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Israeli_general_election
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)lapucelle
(21,061 posts)The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Whether they intend to or not does not matter, save in assessment of their intelligence and moral worth.
Some will certainly be of the 'it must get worse before it can get better' school (the intellectual left's version of 'then they'll be sorry they didn't get me a pony').
Some may be such genuine idiots as to not have recognized the predicable consequence of what they are doing (there's abundant evidence of what effect attacking Democratic figures from the left has in national elections).
A healthy proportion will simply be assholes, and one way or another, active assholes are the natural constituency of the right (that much of the Berlin Storm Troop had been Red Guard before was a frequent jest in 30s Germany).
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)marched to Harlem to disrupt a Harris-Walz event.
Is anyone on the left claiming these pro-terrorist miscreants as part of their coalition?
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)lapucelle
(21,061 posts)Oh, I get it now. The pro-terrorist marchers are anti-Democratic Party, therefore pro-Trump, therefore pro-Netanyahu.
Yes, I can see that kind of bizarre *accelerationst reasoning* coming from these asshats. They are trying to re-elect Trump.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)When you crack a joke, you take on an obligation to be funny, which you have not lived up to...
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)"You see, w'en you're a miner, and you're too old and sick and stupid to do your job properly, well then, you 'ave to go. But the very opposite applies to the judgin'! And that's why Oy'd rather 'ave been a judge, than a miner."
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)lapucelle
(21,061 posts)are neither Democrats nor part of the left. And they don't want peace.
Deminpenn
(17,504 posts)It is not one iota different than protests here in the US after 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. Do you remember the "not in our name" protests? No one called them "pro Iraq" protesters.
RAB910
(4,030 posts)Not better
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Or chanting Ba'athist party slogans and Iraqi government propagandas.
I doubt you do either but perhaps, as they say, you hung with a wilder crowd....
thucythucy
(9,103 posts)I don't recall any of those events either, and I was at a number of demonstrations of the time.
I think to say there's not "one iota" of difference between what we did in 2003 and what these creeps are doing now is insulting to the hundreds of thousands of people of conscience who participated in those marches and demonstrations.
Deminpenn
(17,504 posts)what is being done in Gaza using American made weapons.
Maybe you missed the thousands of Dem primary voters who chose to vote "uncommitted" for president. Are we "pro-Hams" too?
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 16, 2024, 05:16 PM - Edit history (1)
As you included yourself among the 'uncommitted', I will ask the essential questions:
Are you going to vote for Vice-President Harris, and Democratic downballot candidates in November?
Do you think people chanting 'Kamala you can't hide, we charge you with genocide!' have anything useful to contribute to the effort of fending off Trump and his MAGA flock?
Answer yes to the first, no to the second, we are fine.
Answer yes to the first and the second, I'll spare you my view of your intellect and heart, but those won't matter.
Answer no to the first and yes to the second, then I expect you know what most anyone here would take from that.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)Probably no shortage of pro Hamas in that bunch but less direct in outcomes pushed for to be sure of the stance.
I do know that if one isn't committed to keeping the white nationalist crime syndicate, theocratic domestic terrorist organization, and insane death cult out of power then they need a 72 observation if not being committed in a different manner.
What possible tale is there to tell about how electing Chump helps anyone in Gaza either?
The most insidious lies are the ones we tell ourselves.
This goofy, self fluffing bullshit has all the nobility of thrice used toilet paper and the wisdom of a blunt object to the junk for shits and giggles.
Uncommitted to reason, democracy, and civilization is all I see and that is being generous.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)Jamal Bowman and Cori Bush. I doubt we get those votes as many of them don't vote and some are GOP voters no doubt. Nina Turner is a leader and she would never vote Democratic.
LeftInTX
(34,286 posts)There are bunch of members of the house and senate who could use some protesting. Bobert, MTG, Mike Johnson, Matt Gaetz, Jim Jordan..a bunch of them..... Why aren't they protesting them.
What about Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz?
thucythucy
(9,103 posts)I don't recall too many folks around me openly supporting Saddam Hussein or praising his regime. I also don't recall protesters back then carrying banners with Saddam's face. We recognized that his was a repressive, murderous dictatorship.
We also were clear that the "weapons of mass destruction" excuse was BS, that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, and that our government was wrong is launching that invasion.
So I would say there was a hell of a lot more than "one iota" of difference between the demonstrations I attended and the death cult cos-players featured in the posts above.
One can decry the actions of our government without expressing support for a violently antiSemitic, homophobic, misogynistic band of thugs and rapists.
You disagree?
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)As I recall.
Nor Islamists or Putin tools. Useful idiot in particular I'm sure was not bandied about with glee and condescension. Ah, those were the days...
And we were right.
thucythucy
(9,103 posts)Which is why most of us tried not to play into the hands of the Bush Cheney folks by waving Iraqi flags, carrying posters of Saddam, chanting pro-Baath Party slogans, or other similar absurdities. We understood that Saddam's was a murderous regime, and that one can protest the actions of our government without romanticizing or supporting a brutal dictatorship.
Hundreds of thousands of people, maybe more than a million, marched and demonstrated. That was only possible because the organizers were clear-eyed and careful.
Unlike these folks, who seem determined to disrupt the DNC while leaving Trump and his Islamophobic enablers entirely alone.
Which right there makes me wonder about either their intelligence or their true motives.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Similar to the behaviour of peaceful protesters, just regular folk protesting by the millions across the world the first few months of this war. Before the radicals ruined it for everybody. I wish they'd shut up and let the millions speak.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Statements endorsing the sadistic spree appeared immediately, on podiums at demonstrations fielded even before Israel had dropped a bomb in Gaza. Without radical, pro-Hamas bodies doing the work of organizing the muster and setting it to motion in the direction they desired, there would have been few demonstrations, if any.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)No sirree bob. It was all them *nasty radicals turning the good people of the world against Israel.
*Forgive my "bad English" sir. It sure is a hard mistress, just as you pronounced. Not many of us reach your lofty heights.
In my case, I bin trieing since I come to this grate country (not the U.S.) at the age of 11 not speking a wurd of it. Thank God for spel chek.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)These lies have been refuted over and over. You choose to ignore the evidence.
OneGrassRoot
(23,953 posts)EX500rider
(12,581 posts)Do you think people carrying Yahya Sinwar signs and shouting about Intifada are more worried about civilian casualties or mad that their side is losing?
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)But again, the radicals are far outnumbered by ordinary people protesting based on their own beliefs about the war and the cost to civilians.
It should be apparent that Joe Blow can have an opinion based on his/her own POV without being labelled a Putin tool, Hamas-lover or useful idiot. Just because that view is opposed to Israel's action and plans, it should not be taken as siding with Israel's enemy.
Were the protesters of the Iraqi war enemies of the U.S. and friends of Saddam just because they disagreed with its foreign policy?
The only point I'm trying to make is I don't like to see the protests of the millions dismissed or discounted, and using the irrationality of the few to tar the many.
I am totally opposed to the attacks at VP Harris events. Besides trying to damage Harris, they are turning some Democrats against the Palestinian cause. In this regard they are helped by those who tar all protesters with the same brush.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)Harris events are disrupted, the proportion of radicals to ordinary people is self-evident. These are radical acts, committed by radicals. No ordinary people among them. Which makes me doubt they number in the millions.
Meantime, millions of Joe Blows, whatever their opinions may be, neither carry Yahya Sinwar signs nor shout about Intifada. Because, to an ordinary Joe Blow, that would create an impression that they are siding with Hamas.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)As I said up-thread, in a comparison with the protesters of the two wars:
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)Let me remind you:
A clear distinction was made in this post between what you said upthread, for reasons stated upthread, and the people carrying Sinwar signs and shouting about intifada. You were asked about people carrying Sinwar signs and shouting about intifada, remember?
I will not ask you to account for your ridiculous claims of the millions of protesters around the world who didn't carry Hamas flags and didn't shout "from the river to the sea", partially because you may find yourself hard-pressed to find protests that didn't include these or similar pro-Hamas slogans or didn't harass passers by, but mostly because it is irrelevant to the question posed to you.
Try to focus, ok?
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)to the spin.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Why do you think it is that we each think that of the other? Because that's exactly how I feel about what you do.
I have a family event today. I will respond to the Patten Report that you cited etc. as time permits. I hope we can reflect on those questions in the meantime.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)A Chinese prince hired Confucius to be his mentor. The first question he asked Confucius was, "How can I find honest people to advise me?
Confucius replied without hesitation: "Be honest yourself."
I don't know how this encounter ended, or whether Confucius kept his job.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)EX500rider
(12,581 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 18, 2024, 10:51 AM - Edit history (1)
Chanting "From the River to the Sea" is not much help to civilians in the Gaza war zone either and looks more like supporting terrorists & their aims then it does look like someone is upset about civilian casualties.
ymmv
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)I was in those protests.
No Jews harassed.
No black folks beaten.
No kidnappings.
No Saddam worship.
No buildings taken.
No genocide lies.
No propaganda networks propping us up.
No trying to get Republicans elected.
Bull.
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)I don't think I remember people carrying pro Saddam or pro Bin-Ladin signs in those marches?
When you wear/carry pro terrorists colors/flags/posters you aren't really protesting the war, just that your side is losing.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)to release the hostages (what's left of them) and lay down their arms- denounce the part of their charter that calls for the death of all Jews.
Seems simple enough to me. 
TomSlick
(13,013 posts)Protesting at Harris/Walz events naturally serves to divide Democrats and assist Trump. I can only presume that is the intent.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)
FlyingPiggy
(3,748 posts)
OAITW r.2.0
(32,133 posts)to attack the only Party that will address their concerns.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)Sometimes, it is best to just watch, kinda like what is happening on the right. Authoritarians and their supporters will always turn on one another when their purity is put to the test. Scratch just below the surface of an anti-Semite and you will almost always find an anti-Black bigot, and definitely a shit-ton of homophobes!
onandup
(701 posts)They are pressuring Harris to move left. Protesting the repugs does nothing as they'd wear it as a badge of honor.
RAB910
(4,030 posts)Not pressuring
thucythucy
(9,103 posts)before resorting to demonstrations featuring posters about "Genocide Joe" and attacking Harris? How does chanting "From the river to the sea" and carrying signs with Hamas slogans "move Harris to the left?"
"Protesting the repugs does nothing as they'd wear it as a badge of honor."
So the message is: treat these demonstrators with contempt and they won't bother you?
Doesn't seem like a very effective strategy on their part, to try to tear down the people who might help by aiding and abetting those who absolutely will not.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)The idea that being of the left requires participation in the propaganda apparatus of a movement of murderous fanatics whose intent is establishing a theocratic state, one whose acts will be contrary to everything leftists promote in their own countries is, put bluntly, insane.
This issue does not divide people on clean left/right lines. It is light-years beyond bullshit to make adherence to some genuinely weird ideas, held over from the Cold War among leftists of the academy, be the test of whether someone is a person on the left, or is someone participating in history's greatest crime.
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool."
onandup
(701 posts)So, yes, it's very much about moving left.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)I don't myself 'approve' of what is being done in Gaza. I recognize its necessity, and how the circumstance arose in the first place. I seldom argue against reality, there's no percentage in it.
The fact, unfortunate from the point of view of idiots in the street to support Islamist fanatics in their war to exterminate Jews and impose theocratic rule hostile to everything the progressive left stands for, is that what disapproval there is does not run very deep. Vanishingly few people here rate the matter as of any great importance, even if they don't like what's going on. It's not going to move votes, though certainly crying that Democrats support, and participate in, genocide, will tend more to harden support for Democratic candidates rather than otherwise, because of the malice and mendacity inherent to the charge. It certainly makes any attempt to lay these repellent demonstrations of Judenhaas at the feet of Democrats so assailed.
Simple rule you might want to bear in mind: people calling Democratic candidates genocidaires are not helping elect Democrats, and if they are not helping elect Democrats, they are enemies of the Democratic Party and its candidates --- and its voters.
onandup
(701 posts)The spirit of the question was if Israel were taking the right measures in Gaza. I don't think anyone approves of anybody losing their lives in this conflict or any other in a vacuum.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)If you've never had experience of the difference between what is, and what you'd like to see, you must have led quite a life.
Israel is not going to tolerate the possibility of a repeat of what Hamas did October 7 last. That's best treated as a flat fact. Even Israelis zealous for a ceasefire are not calling for an end to the destruction of Hamas, merely for a pause in its course. No government of Israel will do other than take that for its chief military aim.
Israel is seeking this goal by purely military means. The United States is seeking to rally support among neighboring Sunni powers for a policy of hamstringing Hamas, diplomatically and materially, as an alternative means to that end. Each tack lends force to the other: you don't like bombs, try this; you don't want to try this, there's always bombs. One way or another, Hamas will be ended, and anyone with the least concern for the lives of Gaza's people ought to be urging surrender on Hamas: it's the quickest way to save lives.
The highest concern of US policy is the proxy war already entered into with Iran, via the Houthi at Aden and certain Shia militias in Iraq. We are siding with the Sunni in a sectarian war in the Islamic world. It's probably the best policy available. That Iran has come to be the patron of the militant factions currently in the field against Israel, does offer an opportunity not present before.
onandup
(701 posts)and we have a real conversation?
The level of death and destruction shouldn't be seen as an inevitable, and therefore it doesn't matter what we think. We are Israel's sponsor in this. If we deny them weapons, UN support, etc., they are certainly restrained by that.
An arms embargo is a choice we have that is good policy and good politics.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Given the objective, the destruction of Hamas, and given what passes for battle drill with Hamas, this is what will occur when military force is employed against Hamas.
Your suggestion for how Hamas can be neutralized absent military force would be welcome....
onandup
(701 posts)I question if Israel can destroy Hamas without our sponsorship. Consider Israel also has to account for other nations in the region and their potential responses to the death and destruction.
And in the very likely scenario of Israel having our continued assistance, I'm still not totally certain they can. And if they do, what's next?
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)But neighboring powers are disinclined to succor Hamas, owing both to local grudges and to the place of Hamas in the sectarian strife between Shia and Sunni, which is the chief focus of US policy. Neighboring Arab powers assisted Israel in fending off direct attack by Iran. The Egyptian army has no love for Brotherhood types. There is some possibility of a resolution which creates something which could, without squinting too hard, pass for a state under some permutation of the Palestine Authority, with backing by neighbors who envision its creation as a cessation of the conflict, not a further stage in its progress. The neutering of Hamas is the key, nothing else can be done till that is achieved.
onandup
(701 posts)since the reaction to October 7 began. Absent any support from the US, Israel would certainly be feeling the heat. For example, they needed our assistance to thwart the Iranian drone attack.
Bottom line, they do whatever they like. If they nuked Tehran today we would defend them against any response. They and the world know this. And should they declare Hamas powerless to do harm at some point they would still stand in opposition to any type of Palestinian state. Israelis generally despise Gazans and prefer their present condition to their having statehood.
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)"Israelis generally despise Gazans".
For the most part, the Israelis that were murdered on October 7th *thought* that they had a good relationship with Gazans, employing them, assisting them with medical care - free power and water .....
What Israelis despise is Hamas, whose mission is to kill all Jews in Israel, and after that - the world.
Not unless you are asserting that all Gazans are Hamas. If that's true, if the shoe were on your foot how would you treat people whose main goal in lift is to kill you?
onandup
(701 posts)even if Hamas and the UNRWA are not involved.
If that's not hate, I don't know what is.
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)you did not understand my post (must have been all those typos!)
It's your contention that one is morally compelled to feed and assist the very people sworn to destroy you?
canuckledragger
(1,992 posts)when enablers desperately try to divert attention away from the far right Israeli's government's genocide against the innocent Palestinian civilians by accusing anyone that questions their motives of being Hamas supporters.
The propaganda has gotten very tiresome.
canuckledragger
(1,992 posts)that if nobody stands up the far right Israeli's government's genocide of the Palestinian civilians, they will accomplish just that, genocide.
Hamas will never be 'defeated', because Bibi and his enablers will always need a scapegoat for cover when they massacre innocent civilians, humanitarian aid workers, etc.
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)Attacking a urban embedded force not in uniforms who uses civilian infrastructure & lives as cover does indeed make it inevitable, choice B for Israel is wait for the next 10/7
marybourg
(13,640 posts)Anyone who argues for that is arguing for the slow extinguishing of the State of Israel.
It’s really as simple as that.
onandup
(701 posts)And we're seeing the actual extinguishing of Gaza.
marybourg
(13,640 posts)onandup
(701 posts)but I understand they also have an advantage over Iran.
betsuni
(29,075 posts)Supporting radical fundamentalist religious theocracy terrorists isn't moving Left.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)Mularkey!!!
ecstatic
(35,075 posts)So that's where the disconnect comes in. The optics harm our party and makes it easier for trump to win. At least according to the keys to the White House guy.
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)....will do that?
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)We can dispense with the idiotic pretense that these people are urging a 'left' course, as they are in fact aligning with reactionary fundamentalists seeking a theocracy, not only in Gaza but here.
These people are attempting to 'punish' Democratic candidates for not joining them in demanding surrender by Israel and victory for Hamas. They cannot be appeased or met half-way, and will not be satisfied short of the President announcing US forces will assail Israel if it does not immediately accede to any condition demanded by Hamas.
onandup
(701 posts)They seem to recognize the more substantial part of this movement is not conducting an undercover operation for Rump.
canuckledragger
(1,992 posts)That some enablers use, calling anyone the questions the far right Israeli's governments' genocide of the Palestinian civilians 'Hamas supporters' as a way to silence their critics.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)
kentuck
(115,406 posts)But I suspect most of them are outside agitators.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)The "agitators" seem completely organic and even key to the overall movement and the "the not Hamas mainstream" don't seem to differ much less have any real argument with the "agitators".
In fact, "the not Hamas mainstream" is pretty eager to circle the wagons hard for "agitators" rather than demonstrate any bit of daylight.
ecstatic
(35,075 posts)They're usually republicans. Lol
kansasobama
(1,750 posts)Hey guys
If you really care about Gaza, if you really need support, it is coming from people like me and others. You keep up with this pro-Trump anti-Biden protests, I am not going to support your causes. You keep up with this anti-Harris protests, you are losing me and others. Trump will raze Gaza to ground and Netanyahu and Trump will build Trump hotels there and make Gaza a parking lot.
Oct 8th did happen and Hamas did attack There are no angels. Both Netanyahu and Hamas are bad.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)There's so much misinformation and bullshit that they don't even know how to think.
OneGrassRoot
(23,953 posts)I also wish I could struggle silently to figure it out but it requires interaction so, while I will never, ever create an OP about this again, I will try to solicit enlightenment in comments. And I will never, ever create an OP about it again because of the full-on attack stating I've slandered "everyone on the left" when I did no such thing, and accusations that I'm trying to sow discord and cause Biden (and now Harris) to lose votes, which I still maintain is complete bullshit. Why certain people want to silence this conversation remains a mystery to me. It truly does. I'm not assigning nefarious intentions on their part whatsoever. I simply don't understand where they're coming from, and I have a feeling they would have the same response even if it wasn't an election year.
As others have stated above, those of us acknowledging these protests and what we perceive as damaging behavior on their part (calling Biden Genocide Joe and VP Harris Killer Kamala as two of the more benign examples) feel they are damaging the alleged pro-Palestinian cause. I say alleged because, while I absolutely believe that at this point in the protests that is still a focus, other agendas have usurped it and they're harming the pro-Palestinian cause.
The most visible, vocal of the activists have been aggressively calling for anyone planning to vote for democrats NOT to do so. "If you vote for a Dem, you're part of Blue MAGA and you're obviously okay with genocide." If you haven't seen that narrative, I dare say you're not exposed to this movement's activities as much as you think you are. It has gotten increasingly aggressive, and they may have chopped off their nose to spite their face by targeting Black women who are excited to vote for VP Harris. "Keep the name Palestine out of your mouth if you're voting for Killer Kamala."
Even if we take this protest in isolation, it's obvious that many if not most of the "leaders" are anti-Democrat. They're anti-West in general. They are indeed accelerationists who want to burn everything down in the hope that a more just, equitable world can then be built. That's a lovely thought if you ignore the immediate suffering of the most vulnerable populations in the US and abroad, including Palestinians who will be absolutely and completely annihilated if Trump gets in.
As a DUer above said, I also want to put real estate between democrats and people who are viciously anti-democrat/anti-liberal but aren't MAGA. I have previously called them what they call themselves (leftist, even though I've never agreed that all who consider themselves leftists hold the same nihilistic views), but that's what evidently caused me to be attacked, including passive-aggressively from people I like and respect.
But one reason I have wanted to speak to this subject and remind people we have more enemies in the US than just MAGA is because this isn't new. The anti-West contingent have always hated liberals/democrats more than conservatives because, imo, they believe we SHOULD be siding with them 100% and when we don't, it's enraging. And certainly voting for democrats doesn't mean we're PRO war, colonialism, etc., etc., but they are purists and won't listen to that. They simply lash out to destroy and, again imo lose the plot.
I would love to ask DUers who were adults or even teens during the 1968 DNC protests to please speak to any parallels and differences. I realize protests are always messy and some feel any sort of protest is never okay, but surely there are lessons to be learned from previous protests and what worked and didn't work.
I believe the top two leaders of Uncommitted DID meet with Harris/Walz before the Michigan rally and spoke in a kind, hopeful manner about that meeting. I'm not sure if they've issued statements since VP Harris has most recently said she doesn't support an arms embargo. I've also read that some faction of these protests have issued a violent threat against VP Harris.
I just don't think threatening Dem politicians and voters is going to help the Palestinian cause but, again, I think many aren't really focused on doing so. They want the US to fall and the West in general. They also don't seem to ever mention the other ongoing horrors (Congo, Sudan), which does seem to bring it back to a hatred of the US and Israel more than a focus on genocide.
I don't know but I'm very, very frustrated that we can't have a rational conversation here on DU about this certain group of people without accusing one another of ill intent. It's like a family where one group in the family wants to discuss the problematic "family-adjacent" member but the rest of the family wants to defend their violence or just stfu about it.
demosincebirth
(12,826 posts)MaryMagdaline
(7,964 posts)No one ever expects anything from Republicans.
Israel was created because the Democratic President allowed it.
Palestine will never be a state without a Democratic President in office.
Unfortunately for Democrats, we’re the grownup party. All moral responsibility lies with us.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)MaryMagdaline
(7,964 posts)
keithbvadu2
(40,915 posts)
AkFemDem
(2,508 posts)They are anti-America, anti-democracy, and anti-Jew. They’re terrorists, they’re not good people regardless of what political label they claim to wear. They are funded and directed by jihadists. None of this stems from altruism or a desire for peace. While many American participants may be simply stupid and deluded into believing they’re protesting for peace, the root issue is much much darker.
RidinWithHarris
(790 posts)Just like the idiots who will vote for someone like Ralph Nader and help Bush win the presidency, a whole lot of people view their vote in terms of self-indulgent self expression. They might also foolishly argue that "nothing's gonna change" if they don't "vote their conscience", totally not understanding (or refusing to understand) there's no realistic political mechanism that's going to count up their third-party votes (or refusal to vote at all) and put much effort into giving them choices more to their liking in a future election.
When it comes to helping Trump win, I doubt most of these idiots understand that a Trump win likely means no meaningful future elections for a very long time.
The fact that the protestors might be helping Trump win, and that Trump policy in Gaza will certainly be worse than Biden or Harris policy, either doesn't enter the minds of these idiots, or is brushed aside if anyone warns them about that.
They see their duty as protesting, and punishing, the people they perceive as most immediately at fault for the awful conditions in Gaza. Consequences be damned, they just have to express how they feel!