What I expect in the Sept. 10 debate

[misanthrope]

Most of us realize that in most every consideration of classic debate, Harris has the advantage over Trump. Her command of facts, her background, discipline and experience dwarfs his.

Trump realizes this, too and believes his only option is to try and bully her. Unlike a courtroom, there is no judge or bailiff to instill order and proper procedure over matters. There are only the media personalities, celebrity journalists who have shown themselves incapable of moderating these events with Trump. He will gamble on their incompetence and create as much chaos as possible in hopes of enjoying the leeway to treat her like he did Hillary. Maybe even worse.

I am expecting a circus from the GOP candidate. It will be intriguing.

[LakeVermilion]

1. She will hold him accountable...

for being a sexual predator and a tax cheating felon. He should not mess with her. She has already branded him as a “not a serious man.”

[WheelWalker]

2. I tend to disagree. No judge or bailiff, nor defense counsel... but a defendant and an unchained prosecutor.

No contest. IMO.

[misanthrope]

3. Don't take him too lightly

Is he an idiot? Sure. He's also been one of the most transparent con artists of the last half-century yet still managed to remain out of jail. The guy has enjoyed a preternatural string of luck to go with his utter lack of ethics or shame.

[pat_k]

5. He's a grandmaster of the Gish Gallop

Donald Trump is probably unaware that he’s an avid practitioner of a debating method known among philosophers and rhetoricians as the Gish Gallop. Its aim is simple: to defeat one’s opponent by burying them in a torrent of incorrect, irrelevant, or idiotic arguments. Trump owes much of his political success to this tactic—and to the fact that so few people know how to beat it.

See post below
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19384015

[Woodycall]

13. I think she wil absorb the entire context of...

his "Gish Gallop", and then systematically dismember him, point by point...

[pat_k]

25. I'm confident she'll deal with him effectively.

One thing that may make Trump easier to deal with than other gish gallopers is that he has a "top" 10 or 20 he repeats over and over. She can zero in on and destroy one or two bits from each pile of shit he throws at her until he has no new crap to throw. Anything repeated, I've dealt with that, but in case our viewers missed it. . .

[Hekate]

28. The entire point of the Gish Gallop is to never allow your opponent to finish a sentence or thought

Never.

In fact, I just watched JD Vance do exactly that to an interviewer, spewing lie after lie after lie about Kamala and never allowing a question to be completed or a response of more than a few syllables.

[pat_k]

4. Beating Drumpf's Gish Gallop

The Altantic
How to Beat Trump in a Debate
Unprepared and weak-willed opponents continue to play right into his hands.
By Mehdi Hasan
February 16, 2023

Donald Trump is probably unaware that he’s an avid practitioner of a debating method known among philosophers and rhetoricians as the Gish Gallop. Its aim is simple: to defeat one’s opponent by burying them in a torrent of incorrect, irrelevant, or idiotic arguments. Trump owes much of his political success to this tactic—and to the fact that so few people know how to beat it. Although his 2024 campaign has been fairly quiet so far, we can expect to hear a lot more Gish Galloping in the coming months.

Let’s take as an example the first televised presidential debate of the 2020 election campaign. The Fox News host Chris Wallace invited Trump to deliver a two-minute statement. And he was off:
snip

Trump’s statement was the oratorical equivalent of the media-management approach famously summed up by Trump’s former strategist Steve Bannon—“flood the zone with shit.”

As one pithy tweet—now known as “Brandolini’s law”—put it, “The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.” The Gish Galloper’s entire strategy rests on exploiting this advantage. By the time you’ve begun preparing your rebuttal of the Galloper’s first lie, they’ve rattled off another dozen. They want to trick the audience into believing that the facts and the evidence are on their side. (They have so many examples!) The technique is based on delivery over depth. Some call it “proof by verbosity.”
. . .


Paywall-free link
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/donald-trump-debate-strategy-gish-gallop/673061/?gift=CiksPDoBurvFhUHnw_O61nOv2FePkuP8hFxKtW8dwfI&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

[misanthrope]

6. Good advice

I especially like the second technique, identify his technique publicly for the audience so he goes on the defensive. Hell, go ahead use the phrase "Gish Gallop" so every time he does it you can deploy some witticism like, "I hear hoofbeats again. The lies must be out of the corral."

[pat_k]

17. Kudos!

Love the hoofbeats!!

[Hekate]

30. Thanks!

[Gotra5]

7. Is 'Gish Gallop'

2024's 'silly word' term? Like dogwhistle? Something that comes out, means nothing, but gets used in some spaces as some real term?

[ALBliberal]

8. I believe Romney used this method certainly

not to the extent of Trump though. Term has been around awhile.

[Mister Ed]

9. Huh?

Neither of those terms are silly or meaningless. "Gish Gallop" is well-defined upthread:

a torrent of incorrect, irrelevant, or idiotic arguments

A dogwhistle is a statement intended to be understood only by a desired subset of listeners.

Oh, and, uh, welcome to DU.

[misanthrope]

20. An apt handle for discussion of "galloping"

Well done.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

10. Gish Gallop does not mean "nothing". Perhaps you should research.

[ms liberty]

15. Neither dogwhistle nor Gish Gallop are meaningless or silly

They are each well known terms, and have been around for many many years. Perhaps you should consult a dictionary or thesaurus.

[FSogol]

18. From Wiki: "The term, "Gish gallop", was coined in 1994 by anthropologist Eugenie Scott,"

who named it after American creationist Duane Gish. Scott argued that Gish used the technique frequently when challenging the scientific fact of evolution.

The Gish gallop is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm an opponent by abandoning formal debating principles, providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments and that are impossible to address adequately in the time allotted to the opponent. Gish galloping prioritizes the quantity of the galloper's arguments at the expense of their quality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

[mcar]

22. Gish Gallop has been around for quite a while

Like "dogwhistle," it means something.

But I suspect you know that.

[Sugarcoated]

31. It sucks, right?

You guys almost had this thing in the bag and you got the rug pulled out from under you...you were so close

[Scruffy1]

11. I am sure Kamala can handle it and doesn't need anyone's advice.

After all she was a prosecutor and most defense involves a lot of Gish Gallop.

[misanthrope]

19. I don't assume the VPOTUS is turning to this forum for advice

I was merely reflecting on the substantial and extensive differences between that forum and a courtroom.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

12. I think she'll be ready for it.

They know it's coming. They have time to prepare. They won't get bamboozled.

[no_hypocrisy]

14. Harris at a disadvantage?

Not a shot.

Kamala Harris is a seasoned prosecutor. You hear a lot of nonsense being served up at trial. (Many adversarial counsel try to get unsubstantiated information into The Record and incorporated as "facts".) And you object, vociferously.

If the moderators are "incompetent", she can take over their roles handily.

If anything, TSF better double up on his Depends because it's going to be a shitshow -- for him.

[Happy Hoosier]

16. He will do his usual stick.... Gish Gallop.

He'll tell so many lies that fact checking becomes boring and redundant. He'll try to talk over her. He'll try to bully and belittle the moderators.

We've seen this infuriating film before.

Kamala has to be 100% ready to punch back, and punch back HARD. She needs to make it clear that she will not tolerate his misbehaviors.

[nolabear]

21. I'm looking forward to it. She'll be cool as a cucumber.

She’s smart, her advisors are smart, and they’ve studied tfg’s tricks carefully and are armed with a plethora of stupid acts and statements he’s made. I expect him to come off looking like the spoiled brat he is.

[misanthrope]

23. You are most likely correct

She has assembled a good team and, as I mentioned initially, has the acumen and discipline to execute the plan. She also has the experience to think on her feet.

I just find it intriguing to consider what he will deploy to try and counter her better capacity.

[nolabear]

24. Agree. But it's said he doesn't listen to anyone.

I expect him to just do what he does.

[getagrip_already]

26. His latest tactic is to just keep talking....

And not let anyone interupt him. He just yammers on completely ignoring the interviewer or host.

[bucolic_frolic]

27. Trump is a talker stalker at debates

She will get under his skin. Intentionally.

[WarGamer]

29. Frankly... she wasn't good in the 2020 debates.

Having said that... she's had LOTS of time to prepare and work on debate skills and tips to make Trump look like a fool.

She will do fine.

[misanthrope]

32. Her entire campaigning game is vastly improved now

The first rally of hers that I saw after she was tapped as nominee blew me away with the difference. She has really learned over the last four years, which shows how bright she is.