KY Highway shooter arrested recently for making terroristic threats - was allowed to buy gun w/ 2000 rounds yesterday

[Dennis Donovan]

Link to tweet

Hey, Dave! (Unverified)
The arrest was likely sent to ATF for inclusion in their national database. But NRA backed politicians wrote legislation that prevents them from logging it electronically. There are literally boxes stacked with records that are manual access only.

ATF handcuffed by archaic records system

In 1986, Congress passed a ban on the ATF ever having a so-called federal gun registry or any kind of electronic database of firearms.

Posted 5:34 PM, Mar 28, 2023

/snip/

Jackson's store is classified as a Federal Firearms Licensee, or FFL. There are over 50,000 such FFL retailers in the U.S. And by law, they must keep sales records on hand and available to the ATF for criminal investigations.

If the store goes out of business, the records end up in West Virginia.

"It's this cavernous building full of boxes, upon boxes, of boxes of pieces of paper," recently retired ATF Deputy Assistant Director Pete Forcelli said. "It's an archaic system. It's ineffective. It could be better. And like I said, there are victims of crimes out there who deserve better. They deserve that law enforcement should be able to get that information in a more timely manner.

/snip/

"No, there's absolutely no national registry. There's not a database of gun ownership in the United States there. There's simply no such thing," ATF Gun Trace Center Program Director Neil Troppman said.

In 1986, Congress passed a ban on the ATF ever having a so-called federal gun registry or any kind of electronic database of firearms.

What does exist is piles of paper — sheafs of Form 4473.

/snip

Astonishing!

BTW: KY has no Red Flag Gun laws (from Wikipedia):

Proposed or pending state legislation:
Kentucky: In 2022, House Resolution 74 was introduced which includes language opposing the adoption of a red-flag law, following previous attempts in 2019.

Since then:

Kentucky Republican senator presents proposal that would remove guns from those deemed a danger

Jason Riley Dec 15, 2023 Updated Jan 1, 2024

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (WDRB) -- Kentucky Sen. Whitney Westerfield, R-Fruit Hill, on Friday presented to lawmakers two versions of a proposed law that would at least temporarily remove a gun from someone if they are deemed a threat to themselves or others.

The proposals were passionately backed by victims of gun violence, some legislators and even the chief of the Jeffersontown Police Department.

But Kentucky has a Republican-dominated legislature with many citizens and officials who stand firm in their objections to any laws they see as threatening the 2nd Amendment and any violation of gun rights.

One legislator even pointed out that Friday is the 232nd birthday of the 2nd Amendment being ratified.

/snip

To date, it has not been passed.

[bullimiami]

1. Another illegal immigrant drag-queen satan loving communist?

[markodochartaigh]

24. He looks like part of the

“well-regulated” militia.

/s

[3auld6phart]

28. Ooogh

Ugly fuck. Is that the couch Shady Vance has bee courting? It’s time for the repukes and the NRA to burn in Hell

[BoRaGard]

2. "This is not the time to talk about this." - G.O.P., Inc.

"It's just the way it is. Can't do shit about it. So shut up, go away, and leave us and the gun industry alone." - G.O.P., Inc.

[Kaleva]

3. It looks like he was charged but he may not have been convicted yet

I don't think info gets entered into the national database until a person is convicted because everyone is presumed innocent until found guilty by a jury of their peers

[Dennis Donovan]

5. KY has no Red Flag Gun law, which might've prevented this

I've updated the OP with that info.

[Cirsium]

40. Found guilty?

There are all sorts of restrictions in place for the sake of public interest that have nothing to do with being found guilty by a jury. Building codes and permits, professional licenses, product recalls, vehicle inspections, sanitation laws, restraining orders, search warrants, child custody orders, documentation requirements, etc.

[Kaleva]

41. The 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to any of those

[Cirsium]

42. Maybe

The Bill of Rights! All of those things are potentially covered by the Bill of Rights. What makes the Second Amendment so special?

Are you a Second Amendment absolutist then? Do you see any restrictions on firearms as punitive? Is it only the Second Amendment that is sacrosanct? Do you dismiss the "well regulated" part of the text of the amendment?

There are laws and regulations impacting "the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

There is very little practical application left of "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

Suspects, mostly poor and often innocent suspects are routinely pressured to accept plea deals ad are "deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." Forfeiture laws make a mockery of that as well as "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial?" Really? Not for many people in many jurisdictions.

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Such a cruel joke.

[sl8]

43. It's not just convictions.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/nics/reports/active-records-in-the-nics-index-by-state

Note that this is from 2015. I don't know if it's current. The FBI has an active link to it, though.

FBI Criminal Justice Information Services (CJIS) Division
National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) Section
Active Records in the NICS Index as of December 31, 2015

[...]

The following describes the cases in which an individual would be prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm based on information from the NICS Index:

Felony—Persons who have been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; or any state offense classified by the laws of the state as a misdemeanor and is punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding two years, should be submitted to the III for criminal history update with the level of conviction. In the event fingerprints are not captured at the time of arrest, entry into the NICS Index is an alternative. Since most arrests include the submission of fingerprints, this information should be contained in the III; therefore, there may be a low number or no entries in this category. The Department of Justice (DOJ) is undertaking the administrative burden for federal agencies by submitting convictions it processes/prosecutes to the NICS Index.

Under Indictment/Information—Persons under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, may be entered into the NICS Index with an expiration date. This is a temporary prohibition, which may result in a low number or no entries in this category. The DOJ is undertaking the administrative burden for federal agencies by submitting indictment and information(s) it processes/prosecutes to the NICS Index.

Fugitive from Justice—Persons who are fugitives from justice include active misdemeanor or felony criminal warrants. All warrants should be entered into the NCIC, but when the NCIC requirements are not met, entry into the NICS Index is an alternative. Therefore, there may be few or no entries in this category. The DOJ is undertaking the administrative burden for federal agencies by submitting felony warrants it processes/prosecutes to the NICS Index.

Unlawful User/Addicted to a Controlled Substance—Persons who are unlawful users of or addicted to any controlled substance are potential candidates for the NICS Index. This prohibitor may be found in the III when there is a qualifying conviction. For controlled substance charges without a qualifying conviction, it must be established that the substance was a controlled substance (positive drug test or self-admitted use). This information, (such as an incident/arrest report showing drug test results) often not found within the III, may necessitate an entry to the NICS Index. Since this is a temporary prohibition (one year), an expiration date is established in the NICS Index. The DOJ is undertaking the administrative burden for federal agencies by submitting drug-related federal convictions it processes/prosecutes to the NICS Index.

Adjudicated Mental Health—Persons adjudicated as a mental defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution for treatment are entered into the NICS Index. Criminal cases with “Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity” qualify for entry into the III. If this information is not made available on the III, it would qualify for entry into the NICS Index. Civil cases would not be available on the III and would qualify for entry into the NICS Index. Therefore, unless state legislation prohibits sharing mental health information, the NICS Index would be the applicable location for agencies to share this type of information. For the federal mental health information, the NICS Index is the applicable location for this information since federal agencies are required to report this information. Records that are relevant to this prohibitor include judgment and commitment orders, sentencing orders, and court agency records of adjudications of the individual’s inability to manage his or her own affairs if such adjudication is based on marked subnormal intelligence or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease.

Illegal/Unlawful Alien—Illegal and Unlawful Alien entry into the NICS Index is typically made by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Therefore, entry by a state or other federal agency would be minimal to nonexistent in this category, unless additional information was discovered during research.

Dishonorable Discharge—Dishonorable Discharge is a military disqualification and is either found on the III or typically entered into the NICS Index by the U.S. Department of Defense or the U.S. Coast Guard. Therefore, entry by a state or other federal agency would be minimal to nonexistent in this category, unless additional information was discovered during research.

Renounced U.S. Citizenship—Renounced Citizenship submissions into the NICS Index are typically made by the U.S. Department of State. Therefore, entry by a state or other federal agency would be minimal to nonexistent in this category.

Protection/Restraining Order for Domestic Violence—Protection or Restraining Orders are to be entered into the NCIC; however, if all NCIC requirements are unable to be met, entry into the NICS Index is an alternative. Therefore, there may be a low number or no entries in this category.

Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence (MCDV)—In order to determine the prohibition for MCDV, the convicting statute, subsection, and qualifying relationship of the defendant to the victim are required. This information may be posted to the III. When the information is unable to be posted to the III, entry into the NICS Index is an alternative. Therefore, there may be a low number or no entries in this category. The DOJ is undertaking the administrative burden for federal agencies by submitting convictions of domestic violence crimes it processes/prosecutes to the NICS Index.

State Prohibitors—These prohibitors include individuals who are prohibited pursuant to the Brady Act based on state law only. This category is unique to each state/territory and dependent upon state law. Federally Denied Persons File (DPF)—Prior to the passage of the NIAA, the DPF existed because the NICS did not have a category for every prohibitor. Once all prohibitive categories were made available, contributors moved their information from the DPF to the appropriate category.

[...]

[Cirsium]

44. Thanks n/t

...

[malaise]

4. Tots and pears

This is insanity on steroids

[FarPoint]

6. I got to say it.....

" OH FOR FUCKSAKES!"

[Brainfodder]

7. Can we get Turtle's possible comment?

[screen freeze]

[lostnfound]

8. More than 2 boxes of pseudophed? Foreign purchases on your credit card? Technology can block those things!!!

Guns are the sacred cow in America.

[yardwork]

18. People trying to fill prescriptions for their ADHD meds face more barriers.

[RamblingRose]

25. or spray paint, glue,...

[lostnfound]

36. Oh yes -- you have to be 18 to buy spray paint in some places. Protecting the walls from graffiti

But not the humans from bullets.

[allegorical oracle]

46. Michael Steel, on MSNBC, made a good point about the school

shooting last week -- about how it is that we must save unborn children, but don't care if they get shot when they go to school. (paraphrased)

[BOSSHOG]

9. A cavernous building full of boxes

Sounds like the last scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark

Wouldn’t the founding fathers have wanted a registry of members of a well regulated militia. To know of its manpower and extent of armament and location?

[Scrivener7]

16. Right? If only there was something that could store and organize files, and

let us search them easily and red flag scary things...

... something that would compute things ...

[BOSSHOG]

32. What a wonder it would be

[Scrivener7]

34. It would change the world!

[ck4829]

10. Wow, enough ammunition to kill 2000 people

[enigmania]

11. Everything is working out

as they intended.

[Mr. Mustard 2023]

12. Beyond your excellent point, of which I agree...

...this incident would be a great campaign issue for V.P. Harris.

Show the country how Republicon gun worshippers have rigged the system in favor of profiting from the sale of weapons of mass destruction over Americans.

Show the country how it works, make Republicons defend it and offer solutions too.

[Scrivener7]

13. Our nation is insane.

And 3, 2, 1 till the "it's not a clip, it's a magazine" crowd treats us to hundreds of posts about the best ammo to use in an AR15.

[sl8]

14. I think Dave is a bit confused.

He seems to be conflating the FBI with the ATF and also conflating criminal records & NICS (background checks) with firearms purchase records.

FBI maintains NICS and it is definitely computerized. That accounts for the "instant" in National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). They typically give the dealer an approval/disapproval within minutes. You couldn't do that if you had to rummage through warehouses of paper records.

Firearms purchase records are maintained by the dealer. When the dealer goes out of business, the records are sent to the ATF. Those records are paper and prohibited by law to be computerized, so as to not create a national registry.

Dennis, have you found @davegreenidge57 to be a reliable source in the past?

[sanatanadharma]

15. The founding Fathers wrote the 2nd amendment and we can't change a word of it ...

The founding Fathers wrote the 2nd amendment and we can't change a word of it.
Or so "gunsters' say (even here).
Clearly the Founding Fathers were sociopaths and psychopaths who would be OK with early 21st century 'gunster' interpretations of original intent and acceptance of mass murder.
Or, the Founding Fathers were good people unable to imagine the future; people who knowing what we now know would change, deny, or ignore the 2nd amendment.

Guns cause insanity! Individual insanity may not occur before the 'gunster's' death, but collective 'gunster' insanity in modern society is proof that guns do cause insanity. When 18th century ignorance defeats 21st century knowledge, societal insanity is obvious.

[Martin Eden]

17. Republicans who block electronic records on persons deemed a threat

Are accessories to murder.

[paleotn]

20. They love the campaign cash from the gun lobby.

[Martin Eden]

21. More than they love the innocent victims of their own complicity

Demogoguing about guns being taken away and immigrants replacing real Americans has been Rethug strategy for decades.

[paleotn]

19. Criminals and psychos are markets the gun makers just can't pass up. Too profitable. Thus, the ATF slow walk.

Money over school children and everyone else for that matter. Brought to you by propagandized Americans who don't know the 2nd Amendment was never meant for them to "protect themselves". And shore up their fucked up masculinity.

[AverageOldGuy]

22. Want to know why these records are not digitized?

If these records were digitized into a database available to FFL dealers, FBI, ATF, local police, etc, we could catch a lot of people like this before they kill.

So -- why are the records not digitized?

BECAUSE according to the NRA, when -- not "if" but "when" -- a dictator takes of the US, he can use the database to see who owns a weapon/weapons and confiscate them.

And there you have it, folks -- the NRA gunnut asshole mind at work.

[ananda]

23. When your skewed reading of the 2nd Amendment is...

getting your own innocent citizens shot, it's time that
you get voted out!

[brush]

26. These shootings seem to happen in quick succession. Isn't ther another highway shooter on the run right this morning?

We need a scorecard to keep track of these killers.

Rethugs are, of course mute.

[Dennis Donovan]

27. They're still looking for the same KY Hwy shooter... n/t

[wolfie001]

29. donald dump lover/worshipper no doubt

He gets 'em all fired up and then they're like, "Now what?" All that bottled-up rage. It has to get out sometime/somewhere. Plus, throw in a couple hundred million firearms.

[Swede]

30. Go figure.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

31. The tweet is mixing up 2 separate things

The 4473 is the firearms sales record. Those are prohibited to be put into an electronic registry. It wouldn't be that great of registry anyway. The 4473 is only filled out by an FFL during the transaction. Any subsequent sales are not captured by a 4473 unless it goes through an FFL again.

It's filled out after the background check. NICS is the background check and that is an electronics database. Just because he was arrested does not mean he would be put into NICS as a prohibited person. There are other criteria but in this case, he would need to have been indicted for a crime with a sentence exceeding 1 year. Making terroristic threats will carry a sentence longer then one year, but he was very likely out on bail before formal indictment. Also, both local/state authorities and the Feds are occasionally lax when it comes to updating NICS.

[sl8]

33. Good luck.

I had posted something similar above.

It sure seems sometimes that folks just assume that everything they see on X/Twitter is true.

[Scrivener7]

35. While I appreciate that the distinction is an important one, I think the larger point

is that we are doing NOTHING to limit the access obviously dangerous people have to guns and ammunition.

We can track if everyone's car is registered. But we are prevented from tracking whether a nutjob is stockpiling enough ammunition and guns to make his shooting spree on an interstate worth his while.

[sl8]

37. I agree with your larger point.

I also think that spreading misinformation is bad. No doubt it happens innocently or by mistake occasionally, but in those cases it's easy enough to rectify once someone corrects you.

What I really don't get is how many folks seem to believe every tweet and recommend them. Look at how many of RubyShoo's misinformation posts got hundreds of recs, including one with voter disinformation. I find it pretty disheartening.

[Scrivener7]

39. Oh yeah! I put her on ignore but kept seeing

her on the home page with lots of recs. But to be honest, I often clicked on them before I realized it was her.

Most of her inaccuracies were in the context of inane memes, but I had the distinct impression those were meant to soften us up for much more insidious plantings.

[questionseverything]

48. I saw what you posted and appreciate you explaining the difference

[double TT]

38. The NRA

The NRA has been a very effective tool for the Russians. It divides Americans and enables them to kill each other. It has allowed them to spread dirty foreign money throughout the MAGA universe. Their rubles have been very well-spent there.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

45. Welcome to DU

[Coexist]

47. Knr