When is DU going to be renamed "Pretty Far to the Right Underground"?

[devilgrrl]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by SYFROYH (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Because that's what it is.

We get to read about how awful labor unions are. That Women are more or less worthless. Shut up and look pretty b____.

Public School Teachers are responsible for kids not learning anything.

Medicare and Social Security are making the country go broke.

You can't raise taxes on billionaires because they'll leave.

Don't like your job? Start your own business - it's THAT easy.

Shoot first - ask questions later, an armed society is a polite society.



And those are just a few of the things that make up Democratic Underground's "New Normal"

A site that used to be a haven for beleaguered progressives and liberals but not any more. Now it's big tent that couldn't be happier to entertain all of those BAD right wing ideas that never worked.

The New DU Normal.

Ain't it awesome?




Oh. I'm full of shit am I?

Prove me wrong.

[ananda]

1. Well..

There are some trolls and masqued Reep marauders who post here.

But I think the true Dems are OK.

[physioex]

3. I agree....

I think the overall purpose of our cause still stands, and we are collection of individuals of which a select few may stand out.

[elleng]

2. Why would you read such posts?

I don't, and I have plenty of things here, at DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND, to read.

[elleng]

15. 'Tolerate?' Like I should support tombstoning posters with whom I occasionally disagree?

That's not my way of doing business (or friendship.)

[woo me with science]

49. Right-wing spew

used to be grounds for tombstoning here.

And your use of the word "occasional" is just hilarious. Wading through the Third Way propaganda is now part of the DU experience.

[DainBramaged]

65. Yes it was. Those who shit on our principles were sent packing

Now they're 'Centrists'........which is why I'm scarce around here.

[elleng]

82. Sorry you don't appreciate the benefits of exchanging views and moderation.

'Our principles???'

[DainBramaged]

92. Whatever

fuck the views of the Right.

[elleng]

108. I agree,

fuck the views of the right.

[brush]

163. I agree too

We're not about exchanging views and moderation with right wing a holes. They've been ramming their trickle down shit down our throats since Reagan (with some respite during the Clinton years) and WE ALL KNOW TRICKLE DOWN DOESN'T WORK. THEY'VE HAD 30 YEARS TO PROVE IT DOES SO WHERE ARE THE JOBS AND WHY IS THE COUNTRY IN SUCH POOR ECONOMIC SHAPE IF IT WORKS? It's bullcrap and even the ones pushing it the hardest know it doesn't work so don't give us any moderation. And I don't need to exchange views with someone who doesn't even believe their own crapola, or is too stupid to know that TRICKLE DOWN IS JUST A GIGANTIC, GOEBBELS-LIKE BIG LIE designed to give the super rich enough time to extract as much wealth out of the country and into their foreign bank accounts as possible. So I repeat, "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' MODERATION AND EXCHANGE OF RIGHT WING VIEWS."

[sabrina 1]

166. Stuff I see here now on a regular basis makes me wonder where I am sometimes.

Clearly it's a reflection of what has happened to the Party. The Third Way is in control of the Party and the 'Left' is far less welcome in the Big Tent than the Reagan Democrats/Republicans.

What to do about it is the question. They want the votes from the Left at election time so long as they just shut up and vote. How often have we been told to not 'talk about' certain issues 'during election season' lately?

The next four years will determine whether the Left, which includes Unions who reluctantly voted for Democrats this time but made it clear they would no longer be pushed to the side, can be counted to just vote in the next election.

We'll see, but I am hoping for more Independent candidates wherever we are faced with Blue Dog/Third Way choices and that is probably up to us.

[physioex]

6. Yup....

I don't have anyone on my ignore list, but I think it should be used in certain cases.

[sharp_stick]

4. Looks like the meta is

starting to leak past the seals into normal world. Does anyone have a caulking gun?

[GoneOffShore]

8. Call GrayWarrior - She has Duck Tape.

She'll save us.

[CherokeeDem]

36. LOL....

[sharp_stick]

70. I still miss that duck

I was told that it was released into the wild but someone told me that there was a pretty ritzy fois gras party around the time of it's disappearance.

[janx]

99. I miss that!!!

[randome]

16. LOL!

[Junkdrawer]

9. What ever it takes to elect "Democrats"....

Last edited Fri Dec 7, 2012, 07:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Ends justify the means.

AKA

And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul?

[Octafish]

105. It hurts to laugh.

Is Barack Obama Morphing Into Dick Cheney?

EXCERPT...

When it comes to the pursuit of enhanced energy independence, Obama has embraced the ultra-nationalistic orientation of the 2001 Cheney report, with its call for increased reliance on domestic and Western Hemisphere oil and natural gas -- no matter the dangers of drilling in environmentally fragile offshore areas or the use of hazardous techniques like hydro-fracking. In recent speeches, he has boasted of his administration’s efforts to facilitate increased oil and gas drilling at home and promised to speed drilling in new locations, including offshore Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico.

[treestar]

10. Never, because those are not prevailing opinions on DU?

Even if you can come up with a few posts you can interpret that way, how can it be said that the board must take on the characteristics of the most conservative posts?

[ToxMarz]

112. I agree

All of those topics come up here. But they are overwhelmingly viewed exactly the opposite by Duers than the OP suggests. There do seem to be some more rightish even trolling people here than before, but I think the good Duers should be applauded for shutting them down rather than castigated by the poster and put on notice that we as a whole no longer meet her unimpeachable high standards.

[hfojvt]

157. because if one poster ever says something that I interpret that way

and it not PPRed on the spot, then the whole barrell is full of rotten apples.

This is supposed to be a haven when liberals can hang out and only hear things like "ditto", "r-amen", "knr". Any sort of dissenting opinion, especially from the holy writ - is not to be tolerated. If it is, then we are all a bunch of conservatives.

[backscatter712]

11. I'd be careful...

Why, if you called out trollish bad behavior, that means your a troll hunter that makes DU suck!

Of course, the trolls themselves never make DU suck.

[hack89]

12. You are talking about people that supported and voted for Obama

it's pretty fucked up if you really thing they are right wingers.

What are you proposing - a post election purity purge?

[backscatter712]

17. You sure they supported Obama?

I suspect we have a few liars in our midst.

I'll say it again. We need to complain to the management, because pizza delivery service here has gotten pretty slow.

[hack89]

21. In today's hypercharged, hypersensitive DU

I am more likely to believe that people are over reacting to others that disagree with them and that small differences of opinion are magnified well beyond their actual significance.

If you think DU sucks now, wait until a purity purge starts.

[Jackpine Radical]

30. I stand with Hack.

Hypersensitivity abounds around here.

[a geek named Bob]

61. Hack89, most of the groups I've ever seen seems to have undergone a "purity purge..."

It seems to be a natural response to perceived problems.

[AverageJoe90]

160. Tell me about it, Bob.

Sadly, I was recently purged from the E & E group myself. Send me a DU Mail message and I'll tell you the full story.

[Cha]

66. She's not talking about me or any of the other Pres Obama

supporters, who I know of, on DU..

Do you have evidence of such a proclaimation?

[hack89]

68. She is either over reacting to a tiny minority of members

or she is broad brushing a lot of Democrats whose only crime not being as progressive as she is.

I think that people are over reacting to others that disagree with them and that small differences of opinion are magnified well beyond their actual significance.

[woo me with science]

67. The Third Way *always* tries to make it about the man rather than the policies,

because the policies are decidedly uncomfortable to discuss.

Most people here voted for the less right-wing of the two corporate candidates we were given. And we got re-election of a President who has supported indefinite detention, "kill lists" and drone wars, pre-emptive war as administration doctrine, spy centers for mining or surveillance of all phone calls and email without a warrant, internet IDs and internet-censoring measures like ACTA and CISPA, military drones in American skies, coordinated violent crackdowns against peaceful protesters, strip searches for any arrestee, bailouts and settlements for corrupt banks, corporate education deform, cutting or "tweaking" Medicare and Social Security, and austerity budgets in an economy that has already impoverished its middle class.

These were mostly the same issues that defined George W. Bush during his presidency. They are not even centrist policies. They are extreme right-wing, corporatist, neocon, and police state policies. And people who came onto the forum supporting these issues during Bush's presidency were shown the door.

We have a serious problem of corporate money flooding our government and our electoral system and driving policy in both parties. There is also a great deal of effort being spent by corporatists to try to convince Democrats that the change in our party comes from the grass roots rather than from a top-down, financed infiltration by corporatists. However, we all witnessed the lie of those claims when the election came and all the candidates pivoted leftward in their rhetoric to win votes.

Anyone who has been at DU over time has witnessed the changes in what is now not only tolerated, but protected here. Wading through the propaganda is now part of the DU experience.

[hack89]

73. When aligning with a Democratic President

makes one RW then we have a problem. President Obama is not a progressive - he is a centrist Democrat that reflects the values and beliefs of most Democrats. But according to some here he wouldn't belong on DU.

This is not a RW - LW fight. It is a family squabble within the Democratic party.

[sabrina 1]

169. Your first sentence is absolutely correct. Many Progressives had to wrestle with their

consciences over War Crimes going unpunished, torturers being protected, Teachers being scapegoated in order to privatize education, a HC Bill that saved the real cause of the cost of HC, Private Insurance Corps and many, many more decidedly unDemocratic policies supported by this administration. The choice in the end being we had only two was easy, but that only makes it more clear that money has so affected our political system it has been bought to the point that for now, there is not much we can do about it.

But people will not allow themselves to continue to be manipulated this way. The Unions have already sent a warning, combined with dozens of Progressive Organizations and SS Advocacy groups who have formed a huge coalition because while they too voted this time for Democrats, for the first time they state publicly they do not trust them anymore.

I could see a new party of the people forming if things do not change over the next four years. A Labor Party because the truth is there is little representation of the people in this government anymore. And when that happens and becomes this obvious, history shows, major adjustments are made, mostly by the people.

[wilsonbooks]

174. Thank you.

[rudycantfail]

176. The corporate centrist takeover of the Democratic Party

happened from the top down. Now, the corporate centrists are advising the left that the way to take back the party is through the grass roots. It's comical.

[PufPuf23]

107. I voted POTUS Obama in 2008 and 2012

Gave $ and lost friends and cried for the only time over election in my 60 years.

2012 had no other choice.

POTUS Obama has made appointments and supported policies farther right than Hoover or Nixon.

So far this 2nd term looks like a replay.

We lost the House in 2010 because of choices of policy and appointments made by POTUS Obama; to say otherwise is blaming the victims.

I want to see the rule of law for war crimes and bankers not continuing the drug war (as today's ready example).

IMHO POTUS Obama did not earn the Nobel Peace prize; the award was based upon hope not continued policy with more finesse.

[KoKo]

146. Yep and so did most of us here on DU since 2001...held our nose..except the good

socialists who left this site or who were thrown off years ago.

We wished and hoped for a better future.

It remains to be seen how that has worked out..but, this site never was what it was supposed to be.

Admins wanted it to be a "FUN SITE for DEMS" as opposed to "Free Republic." They were young and not so serious as what they got on this site which was a bunch of RADICALS who wanted to TAKE BACK AMERICA! (Vietnam leftovers mixed with Tech Libertarians and so many who KNEW that Election 2000 was STOLEN.

It was a mixed bag. The ADMINS (imho, ..of course) never realized what would come out of this site.

It wasn't what they really wanted at that time an that age in their life.

We NEVER HAD a REAL PLACE...to go to...and this was it or "Daily KOS" the Third Way place....... IMHO though. That's my conclusion which might be up for debate by those who REALLY KNOW.. I've never been an "insider" in that group so it's hard to know...just my sense of years of traveling through all this and being actively engaged Dem particularly since Howard Dean Time...and a voter for all Dems before that and a Protestor against the Vietnam War way back...but, not a hippie or any where near what the History Channel or A&E Networks portray what went on a that time...Propaganda Crap!

Whatever...

[NMDemDist2]

151. good to see you KoKo

[KoKo]

156. Thanks...I wonder why I'm still here...it's good to know there a some others..

we do what we have to do ...is what I think. I can't give up now...and think there are others who feel the same way...even though...our voices are fewer than the "Old Days."

we do what we are compelled to do with conscience, commitment...or we are just damned fools.

I like to hope that few voices can STILL MAKE CHANGE. I'm a dreamer/idealist.

I wonder if it can be that so few can still make change. I like to think so. I hope so.

[PufPuf23]

165. I share your pain and frustration KoKo and liked Dean too.

I was in boarding schools in the SF Bay Area 66-70, 8th to 11th grades.

Road a Greyhound from San Rafael to SF age 13 to see just what this Haight-Ashbury was about.

My folks thought I was having too much fun at antiwar rallies and the best music ever so came home for senior year on the Reservation.

Saved my $ and went back to "that hippy school" (my 8th grade rural Dad WWII born 1910) UC Berkeley age 21 when Reagan was Governor. Quit the Feds after 16 years when Reagan was POTUS and made a mockery of the agency.

I graduated actually having saved $ and owned a house outright when graduated age 26. I am a white male and faced a hill of Affirmative Action but liked and supported the diversity. Grew up and now live as a minority among American Indians and also having spent formative years in such a fecund environment for what can and should be.

I accept that the country is on a poor trajectory and won't recover until I'm dead.

[Blunt477]

13. Democratic Party Needs Find Some Courage

[Skidmore]

14. Aww, jeez.

Are you sure you haven't been hanging out at FR and got lost? I have no idea where you got those topic areas. Besides, we need to be willing to speak to all, even those we don't agree with. Otherwise we run the risk of becoming the other flavor of tea.

[elleng]

18. Yes. Thanks.

[Skidmore]

25. As someone who was here through all of those years,

we have had our ups and downs and all out wars on these forums. However, most people have been welcomed and a range of opinions tolerated. It is pretty doggone naive to expect to have numbers to turn over elections in our favor and to do it with only those who agree with the absolutes. Life doesn't work that way. You need to be able to listen to others.

[hack89]

34. The moderators were moderate

Last edited Fri Dec 7, 2012, 09:05 PM - Edit history (1)

we didn't have a jury system that seems to do nothing more than divides by giving all the power to judge their fellow DUrs.

There certainly were no talks of purity purges.

[dlwickham]

78. as a former mod back in the day

I have to agree with you

this jury system sucks big balls and not in a good way

[allrevvedup]

123. Please, no mods. And juries rock.

Mods all too often turn out to be major RW trolls, present company excepted naturally. Why that is, I don't know. Maybe because it's the cop wannabes secretly pining to show off their J Edgar drag who want to be mods in the first place.

Anyway this place has struck gold with the jury system and if it means no mods sneaking around with their secret shit-lists and snarky slogans I wouldn't touch it no matter how many peeps complain.

[dlwickham]

162. I never knew a mod who was a troll in any way shape or form

most if not all were very fair and the whole process was out in the open

this whole jury system is way to secretive

[allrevvedup]

172. Could be. But if so you're lucky.

I've been a moderator elsewhere and mod secrecy is built into out-of-the-box forum software. There's an invisible mod board where mods get to hang, and god-like powers ordinary posters lack, if only to lock threads and delete spam. And who can resist the call of duty? Give someone mod capabilities and even the best will eventually find an opportunity to use them, either in what they feel is the best interest of the board or just to shut up an annoying opponent.

Juries on the other hand seem refreshingly transparent: jurors see other juror's comments and votes, and if a post gets deleted, so does the offending poster. The only improvement I might make is to also notify posters whose posts are alerted but not deleted, if that isn't done already.

And I know posters and jurors here can post jury results in the meta forum for scrutiny; I've seen it done. Could posters do that while you were a mod? I'd be surprised, and it would be an exception to most chat boards, which just by virtue of the software tend to be authoritarian, hierarchical, and secretive.

[TomClash]

126. Except you made the "purity purge" phrase up

You're the only one talking about it.

No one else here is looking to purge anyone.

I serve on juries here more than most and I very, very rarely vote to ban any posts - even yours.

[hack89]

133. Ok - the OP is merely venting about the new RW DU

but has no desire for those people to leave. My bad.

[SidDithers]

141. You've served on 76 juries...

There are DUers who are at or near 300.

Tons of DUers have over 100.

Even the poster you've replied to has served on more juries than you.

So, no.

Sid

[MrSlayer]

20. Laughable.

Why don't you prove it is that way instead of asking people to prove a negative?

Poll this site. I'll bet on high nineties in union support, gender equality, raising taxes not just on billionaires but on everyone except the poor, public schools and expanding SS and Mecicare. Medicare for all would win in a landslide.

I'll bet just as many people would vote for total gun confiscation as would vote for regular gun control and "everyone should be armed" would be lucky to get double digits.

If you think the site is not that way, you are full of shit.

[Berserker]

24. Only

the non thinking idiots would vote for total gun confiscation. Lets have a poll!

[MrSlayer]

37. I was making one but then I noticed that I'm not allowed to.

Which sucks.

[Berserker]

142. Yes it does

Let the truth come out. I would love it.

[arcane1]

22. I must've missed those posts

I have certainly seen posts I do not agree with, but not nearly enough to make it the new normal.

[randome]

23. "And then they fell upon themselves like vampires. Just the way I planned."

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

[geckosfeet]

26. You are hanging out in the wrooooong forums.

And stop feeding the trolls.

[Egalitarian Thug]

27. Well, it certainly does tolerate a lot more RW crap since we elected a moderate conservative

for President. I can't disprove your thesis.

It's funny that by the standards of Europe and most of South America, I'm pretty conservative, but here I'm a radical left wing loony, a pie-in-the-sky dreamer, a purity troll, and a dirty fucking hippie (we've always been right).

[blkmusclmachine]

93. Obama is a '90s Republican.

The Overton Window has moved significantly to the right during and since the Clinton era. And there's no reversal on the horizon.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

28. I'd like to see some examples of these posts

because I haven't seen them. I'm sure there are trolls and disruptors, but they certainly don't represent the vast majority of DUers - I wouldn't go so far to say you're full of shit - that wouldn't be nice - but I'd like to see some proof of what you are claiming.

[Cary]

29. Occasionally I find "conservatives" here.

Other than the ones who get banned after a few posts, I do find them to be civil enough.

There are people at the other extreme who are far worse.

[Jackpine Radical]

35. One of ur "regulars" in the Old Days had the honest username "Repub,"

and she ( she iirc) added usefully to the site. The discourse was both civil and worthwhile, at least in my opinion.

[hrmjustin]

31. I am sorry you feel this way.

When you have a board like this you will have different opinions. When they are out and out RW posts we do our best to alert on them, but sometimes the jury makes a bad decision. I do not like the idea of purity tests, but there are some people here that enjoy baiting us and are allowed to do it. Than again if they got rid of the baiters what would we all have to complain about.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

32. devilgrrl, devilgrrl, devilgrrl!

Have you been in Meta again? You know there is a reason it is "The Forum that MUST NOT be Named!"

[hrmjustin]

33. Meta can be fun at times, but a pain at others.

[OregonBlue]

38. I think this is over the top. There are people and posts I don't agree with here.

That doesn't mean I think this is a far right board. Please give examples of:

We get to read about how awful labor unions are. That Women are more or less worthless. Shut up and look pretty b____.

Public School Teachers are responsible for kids not learning anything.

Medicare and Social Security are making the country go broke.

You can't raise taxes on billionaires because they'll leave.

Don't like your job? Start your own business - it's THAT easy.

Shoot first - ask questions later, an armed society is a polite society.

For anyone who posts those things, I'm sure the majority will give them hell. I suggest you use the ignore button.

[xxxsdesdexxx]

39. I'll admit it. I don't read every post, but of the many I've read I haven't seen evidence of this

[backscatter712]

40. For those wondering, here's an example of some of the anti-union posts...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1865885

See the Meta thread on dkf for several examples of the other things devilgrrl brought up.

[hughee99]

43. Yes, I see a bunch of people disagreeing with them, too.

This is what's known as "cherry picking" your data if your intention is to smear the whole site with the actions of a few posters.

[backscatter712]

48. Nobody's saying everyone at DU is anti-union.

Obviously, most people who come here are pro-union and left-wing. Devilgrrl's using that rhetorical technique called "hyperbole".

But, yes, we do periodically get blatant right-wing bullshit posted on this site, and I stand with devilgrrl in wondering why such posts and the people who stir the shit by making those posts are tolerated here at all.

[woo me with science]

50. Of course there are people disagreeing with them.

The majority of people who post here are still Democrats.

This is a Democratic board.

The point is that right-wing views are constantly dispensed here, and the drumbeat is not only tolerated but protected, when similar behavior used to be clear grounds for tombstoning.

[byeya]

75. I don't see much posting going on when a unionist brings up a union topic.

Maybe it's not sexy enough to get people to post but I think the war on unions and union organizing is one of the 3 or 4 major issues facing progressives. How do we reverse the anti-union $$$ swaying Americans? I think the lack of posting action shows either indecision or a misplaced lack of solidarity in favor of Alger bootstrap nonsense.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

47. And if you read on, you'll see that NOBODY agreed with this person.

So, while it may be true that an occasional post expressing right-wing views pops up from time to time, like this one, those opinions do not go unchallenged, and clearly do not represent the sentiments of DU as a whole. It's a real stretch to suggest DU has gone conservative.

[hughee99]

41. I think you've been looking at the wrong website, or have decided

to take the one idiotic post out of 100 as representative of the DU.

Want proof? Post any one of the RW talking points as a thread title and see how much kumbaya you get in the ensuing thread.

[SidDithers]

42. Yes. You are...nt

Sid

[WilliamPitt]

44. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

<-----------------------------------------------------------------

[jeff47]

45. Could you pass out the manual of acceptable statements for us?

We wouldn't want to offend you by exposing you to any opinions that slightly vary from your own.

If you find a post you disagree with, how about writing a post where you disagree with them? Golly, what a revolutionary idea for a discussion board!

[anneboleyn]

175. *snorts* very well-put indeed, jeff47. We need an Animal Farm-like list

of "acceptable" statements: "It is okay to say "x" but never in the presence of "y" poster, who may be present at any time"

[cosmicone]

46. You sound like a democratic version of the "tea party"

seeking purity on every issue from everyone to act like lock-step republikkkons.

We are a party of diversity and of the 6 things you mentioned, there may be some who go for one of those but are on your side on the other five. Do you really want to purge them?

[Mojorabbit]

51. Well I agree I have seen all you post written here except your last

line. Every Republican and Dem I know is armed and political affiliation has nothing to do with that fact. Shoot first and ask later is of course not even on the page in the community I hang with. I humbly submit that was a bit of hyperbole? At least I hope it was.

[woo me with science]

52. Of course you are correct,

and the board is persistently spun by the right wing.

But you will be told to disbelieve your experience, just as we have been admonished to believe that the country is really center-right.

The country is not really hungry for corporatism, but there is a great deal of effort and money being spent to convince us otherwise.

[unblock]

53. apparently you're not familiar with the democratic party. we can't agree on ANYthing.

herding cats, you know.

that said, even the most cursory review will tell you that this site is very far removed from the typical right-wing site.

[druidity33]

54. We really need the Unrec feature back... nt.

[SidDithers]

55. The chains that are shackling you to this website must be prodigiously thick...nt

Sid

[xfundy]

56. We, on the whole, consider and listen to others.

Cancervatives can't do that. We can have discussions even with those who disagree on some points.

They can't. Agree or be kicked out.

That may be viewed as a weakness on our side. I view it as a strength.

[a2liberal]

57. Why?

Given that the general consensus on this site (which I think you assessed correctly for the most part) tends to align on the political spectrum with elected Democratic politicians, Democratic Underground is a pretty appropriate name.

[whatchamacallit]

58. It's not a site for liberals

it's a site for partisan political junkies. A painful realization.

[Generic Brad]

148. If it was, it would be called "Liberal Underground"

Besides, if we all had the same views on every single topic, this would not be much of a web site.

That being said, I think the original OP was complaining about posters who are distinctly in the minority here.

[demwing]

59. complete nonsense

You are not full of shit, but the same cannot be said for your post.

Now prove me wrong...

[byronius]

60. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Haven't seen anything like that at all on here. WTF?

[Mass]

62. This is not DU, this is the Democratic Party in general

and it is what happens when you welcome people from the GOP without asking them to change. Because they are less crazy than the far right does not make them progressives.

[Curmudgeoness]

63. I have never seen these opinions go unchallenged.

Usually, I will see flame wars over the comments that you suggest are common. Those opinions do pop up here, but they are not the norm. And if they are nasty, they go get hidden. And if they continue with all right-wing bullshit, it is pizza time.

I still think that the vast majority here are progressives, or liberals, or whatever you call people on the left.

[janx]

64. Prove yourself right by providing evidence for these claims.

And please don't assume (for whatever strange reason) that people find you "full of shit."

It sounds as if you've had a bad day.

[Coyotl]

69. indeed!

Burden of proof falls upon the hypothesizer

[woo me with science]

74. Silly post.

The "evidence" is ubiquitous: www.democraticunderground.com. Someone has even humored the nonsense by posting some links above, even though we all know they could never post enough of them to stop the denials...because the denials are political rather than substantive.

For all its power and corporate backing, Third Way messaging still has an insurmountable problem: convincing people that what they see with their own eyes each and every day never happened.

We have always been at war with Eastasia.
The chocolate ration has been increased.
And DU isn't infested with right-wing apologism each and every day.

[janx]

87. Perhaps it is,

but this assumes DU participation on a daily basis.

To someone like me, who no longer has time to participate on DU on a daily basis, the OP sounds like a conspiracy theory, and frankly, so does your reaction to what I posted. Constant evidence, you say? I am not aware of that.

Evidence for the claim should have been provided in the first place. A poster above was accurate in pointing out the weakness of the original post: asking people to prove a negative.

As to this: "For all its power and corporate backing, Third Way messaging..."--the vocabulary alone suggests some kind of conspiracy.

[busterbrown]

71. I like trolls, I like to fuck with them. I’m still relatively new however I’m on here all the time..

And rarely do I find a sludge around!
However, I’ve gotten into it withe DU gunner crowd once in a while.

[RomneyLies]

72. Negative Proof fallacy

Proving you wrong is to require a proof of the negative.

Your burden is to demonstrate those things you assert are true, then we can debate validity.

[loyalkydem]

76. Don't forget the

If the President doesn't do this than screw the Democratic Party. I swear I'm getting tired of seeing those posts.

[freshwest]

109. +1,000 to what you said!

[union_maid]

114. +10,000

But aren't those posts coming from people who describe themselves as the most progressive? I'm pretty sick of some of them and have been since about the day after election day in 2008, even though we'd probably agree on what would make an ideal world, at least in broad strokes.

[freshwest]

134. Myself as well. I am tending to believe they aren't progressives anymore. I know lefties IRL who

have gone so far to the left, they're like baggers now, especially the ones who have gone total CT or libertarian. They won't admit it, but that's where they are trending, all government is bad, really, really. Agree with them on everything - or you're Hitler.

Oh, and they hate the Democratic Party but have never worked in it, and they are the worst evil there is. They have no solution, except to name call and kick and scream for what did not fall from the sky onto their plate. You can't get any work done with them. Nothing will suffice to dose the red hot outrage over - whatever.

[LiberalLoner]

77. We've had some problems lately, I

Can't deny that. But I hope we liberals will win in the end.

[patrice]

120. Agreed. They're here tuning up for 2014. The anti-dote is to share, share, share outside of DU,

so that their crap is seen by more and more people for what it is and Liberal/Progressive analysis of the facts and proposals have a chance to be more widely known.

[stupidicus]

79. A few idiots does not a roomful of dumbasses make

I can't imagine that type being as prevalent as you suggest, but then I rarely get past whatever is posted on the top page, like this one of yours.

The only real conflict I've seen came from idiots whining about "concern trolls" in an effort to silence all pre-election discussion regarding the social safety nets, and what BHO might or might not sign into law on the matter.

I suppose I should get around more, because I'd enjoy stomping the anti-union, etc type you cited.

I'd say based on the fact that none of those posts have risen to the top as yours did, that they are in a distinct minority. If those conflicts with idiots and their "concern troll" BS taught me anything about this place, it's that it is ran like and akin to a high school popularity contest, so those types you listed must not be very popular, ergo, there aren't many of them.

[Blue_In_AK]

80. DU is a site for Democrats

but not for the Underground.

[ZombieHorde]

81. I like it.

I like when posters post stuff I disagree with because I love to argue. I have not been arguing very much lately, but when I get into the mood, I like knowing that there are lots of people here to argue with. Most of the stuff that I interpret as misogynistic I really don't like seeing here, but it has helped to open my eyes to just how common misogynist views are.

I don't think posters should be banned for having one or two right-wing positions. You're OP doesn't say folks should be banned, but I'm just throwing that out there for the sake of argument.

[randome]

97. No, you don't!

[ZombieHorde]

127. Yes, I do!

(thanks)

[bluestate10]

83. I haven't seen any one posting the type of stuff you mentioned in large numbers.

I have only seen one poster that I identify as ALWAYS posting right of center positions on almost any issue, but I seldom see DUERS agreeing with that person.

May be you should accept that DU is a reflection of the democratic party, a party which is broadly diverse in viewpoints.

[David__77]

84. There's always been right-of-center types on DU.

But they are a minority and usually focused on certain issues. There were times when it was muted, as with the Iraq war or support for the likes of Joe Lieberman, but it's always been there. Plus, this is the USA, and it's a pretty politically backward country as a whole. The solution is to befriend and educate people with backward ideas.

[MotherPetrie]

85. Don't forget the red carpet that was rolled out here for rightwinger Chuck Hagel

When the rumors started flying that he was a potential nominee to be SOS!

It's not only wingnuts who wave the "Mypresident right or wrong!" flag.

[ReRe]

86. If DU was as you describe "Pretty Far to the Right Underground"....

.... I would clock out and never come back. Trolls get thru, yes, but I don't think they last long, because they are ignored or kicked out. The only ones who stay around are betting on finding a sucker like you who runs to the well and complains. This drives a wedge between us (DUers), which is the troll's MO. But, the troll always looses out, because nothing can come between us. We are Democratic. And we are Underground.

Take a deep breath. Relax. Take a vacation. Fagit-about-it, devilgrrl. This is the same wonderful place it's always been. Now, stop that puking. Take a shower, pop some corn and watch a movie and then come back. You are us and we are you.... We are the Walrus!

[LiberalArkie]

88. If DU was truly liberal then

it would allow everyone to say anything as long as the person or comment did not inflame.

Oh Rats it does that.

To allow only liberal or left leaning viewpoints to be posted, then DU would have to become a right-way system.

Liberal (by its nature thrives by opposing viewpoints) that is why DU WORKS.

[TheProgressive]

89. In the beginning, DU was positively progressive/liberal/Democrat....and

DU become a voice of reason, knowledge, and a force to be reckoned with.

So, of course, it had to be infiltrated to dilute the message. This is a common
tactic on radio as well, but usually the host will see thru their disguise and
redirect to the Dem view.

I guess we just need to argue and debate these posts to reflect the Dem view.

[Honeycombe8]

90. Sounds like you don't like discussions. Just "Yes, I agree" forums. Check out freerepublic.

No real discussions there. Everyone on the same wave length. No disagreements. Far right, all the way.

Fact is, most things are not black and white. There are shades of gray. Why SHOULDN'T there be a discussion of the effects of raising the tax rates on billionaires? I don't know of anyone in DU who doesn't agree with that, but it's valid to discuss ALL the effects of that, the good and the bad. (There are ALWAYS good AND bad effects of anything.)

[Bonobo]

91. You forgot how we need to start a new war in Syria. nt

[defacto7]

94. Uh... What?

I guess I'm not getting around here much. I have no idea what you are talking about. Haven't seen ALL the stuff you ave mentioned other than an occasional blip here and there.

[chazunit]

95. I am

a 55 year old 30 year union construction worker. I have never voted for anyone but a democrat or a proper thinking independent candidate and I vote every single election. I help at union phone banks prior to elections and I drive less fortunate voters to their polling places to help get out our vote.

I may be a new member here but I don't see myself as any "new normal". I have, and continue to, pay my dues both literally and figuratively to forward the good fight.

I don't understand why someone might feel that this forum has changed so much as I have not been here that long but I can say that I see great things here and that is worth it to me.

Thanks for allowing me my few cents worth.

[freshwest]

110. Chazunit, welcome to DU, proud to make your acquaintance. Former union steward here, retired.

[11 Bravo]

96. Right after "whining about DU" threads are bounced to META. Wait, what? I thought ...

that was already supposed to have happened.

[PufPuf23]

98. Our Democratic Party is more right wing than POTUS Hoover up to 1932.

Read some of the policies of Hoover as POTUS.

Raised highest tax bracket from 25% to 68% (going by memory).

Was against laise faire capitalism and pro what he called associtionism which was public-private partnerships with regulated capitalism.

Paid off the WWI Bonus Army.

Built Hoover Dam and other public works projects for energy and Keynesian ecionomic stimulus.

First (and only) Native American Vice POTUS.

Hired people like Gifford Pinchot for the environment.

Anti-foreign military intervention.

Thought no one should go without food (before POTUS fed defeated enemies from WWI).

etc.

from wiki:

POTUS Hoover liked to say that the difference between dictatorship and democracy was simple: dictators organize from the top down, democracies from the bottom up.

[democrattotheend]

100. For what it's worth

In my daily life, I find that I am more liberal than most of the people I encounter. But here, I sometimes feel like a conservative!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

101. Democracy is messy. No, you are not full of shit.

You should understand that there is plenty of stupid on the internets.

[rbixby]

102. Must we walk in lockstep like republicans?

I'm just wondering if that's what's expected around here.

[fascisthunter]

119. YES! and if you don't cut your beard...

... we will have to take your head off.

[still_one]

103. So are you saying that is the content of,the majority of posters here, and their views? If so, then

Yes you are full of it

or you are doing selective filtering

[freshwest]

104. Sure, you are wrong. I have all those people on Ignore, so I *never* see shit like that.

[patrice]

125. I think I have only one person on ignore & I can honestly say that, though I've noticed some

increase lately in the sorts of things that OP is referring to, it's still definitely the minority here, compared to Progressive & Liberal & Leftie perspectives.

[freshwest]

132. Well, it depends on if supporting Obama makes one an Obamabot or not in some people's eyes.

Kindred spirits can still meet here and exchange their views and learn from each other how to reach out to others that are to the right. And discuss the bigger issues, what kind of thinking is needed to make things work and support each other.

But I'll never stop putting people on Ignore. Life is too short to deal with BS. I'll never apologize. We pay to be here, Skinner uses Ignore, nothing wrong with it. I'm not on a crusade to make everyone agree with me. That seem to be what some people want, and then bemoan that they don't. That doesn't work IRL either.

[patrice]

137. Oh! That wasn't meant as judgement about Ignore. I guess I'm saying that I see a LOT of

what goes on here.

AND I am pretty darned Leftie myself (with perhaps a main difference being that I am, as a practical matter, committed to Democratic Solidarity, because we Lefties are NEVER going to get into any kind of position in which we really do move ourselves and others with more authentically Liberal policies unless we do stick together with those with those with whom we really do have more essential affinity, though we may and do differ on tactics) . . . anyway, I am a Leftie and that makes me a target for the kinds of things that OP is concerned about. Maybe I just am just too small a "fish" to be worth the bother, but mostly those OP refers to don't come after me very often, so I don't think the over-all incidence is as high as OP may be implying.

There are all kinds of things going on on this board with semantic masks behind masks behind masks. It's not everyone, but it's enough to make it difficult in some situations to assess what some DU -ers' motives are.

[freshwest]

145. Agree with all you said, and we are cool. There is just a limited amount of time. I've tried to show

some peeps solutions or proof that the media meme is not true about Democrats, but after a while it's like talking to a brick wall or a bagger. And we need to stick together, but some people refuse. As the TOS says:

Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.

And election season is not just every four years. We saw what happened in 2010 and some are already threatening to do the same in 2014. To me, that's rooting for the other side. In fact, the constant insults and belittling Democrats as a party in general, is what the media and rightwing say.

It just so happens, many of the voices being trumphed here are not now, and have never been in support of the Democratic Party. They are from libetarian sources, just not labeled as such and take on causes libertarians don't really support, to demoralize Democrats. The Democratic Party is, just as the GOP and Libertarians say, 'the party of government.'

Yes, we are 'guilty as charged.' As shown in the TOS, Skinner also believes in working within government. A great many voices that want government gone, will degrade all of us trying to keep it as an engine of social change and protector of equality.

I've come to see some as dishonest or ill-informed like baggers. Many of their CT is from the same sources as the baggers feed upon. So they are on Ignore. There is no daylight in our values, patrice. I am farther to the left than these CT types. What I want for America is Norwegian-type social democracy. That is far to the left of most people anywhere. I am unimpressed with those who tear down the only means we have of getting it.

[patrice]

153. I love you, freshwest! & I say Socialism for all of the necessities of life will FREE up lots of

resources, human and otherwise, for Capitalism for everything else (that is for everything other than the necessities of life). NEW entrepreneurship will be good for people. They need somekind of secure base under them to make that happen. I know that's a little global, but I think there are several varieties of economic and environmental problems that will be ameliorated by Workers' Co-operatives. I hope to help them take root.

[freshwest]

161. Love you right back, patrice.

[Agnosticsherbet]

106. That position has already been taken by Free Republic...

Visit it sometimes if you want to see people support each of your complaints.

What we have here is a very big tent with opinions spanning from right of center through socialism, including libertarian left.

I think it is healthy.

I think it is healthy that we can each march to a different drummer.

[leveymg]

111. Nicely put. We've been domesticated. Now, behave or they'll have you spayed or neutered.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed. Like my ears? They've been bobbed. They docked my tail, too. I barely miss it.

[hootinholler]

113. I thought it was more like Democratic Mainstream n/t

[patrice]

131. It's NOT the mainstream. The center is actually left of where we are told it is. Part of the problem

is that, relatively speaking, because of Corporate Personhood propaganda etc., there's no authentically functional POLITICAL Left out there. If you only use "crayons"/politics and those "crayons" don't have any green, your pictures are going to be the kinds of pictures that "crayons"/politics produce and grass, trees, vegetables, other stuff will not be green.

Perhaps you can agree that the picture of who/what we are, which portrait is delivered by the thing itself in which we live (in and delivered by all of those different systems and all of their history), tends to be composed the way that is appropriate to it rather than in terms of the real phenomena themselves.

[patrice]

115. Don't become one of them by doing what they do. Don't characterize, what, 60-80K members on

the basis of the actions of a very small minority.

And their presence always provides good opportunities to take them apart in a ways that are not about them personally, not just personal insults driven by the desire for meanness and are more about errors, ignorance, ir-rationality etc. Taking the oppressor apart is an exercise many of us enjoy quite a bit, an opportunity for learning and growth, and something that is hard to find in such a manageable/safe atmosphere elsewhere.

You are correct in thinking that we should be diligent in seeing that our community is not dominated by those who, were it up to them, would ban the rest of us, so you have my personal commitment to do better in that regard when I see an opportunity to do so.

[Skittles]

116. it just shows us that propaganda works on more than just teabaggers

[pnwmom]

117. Other than some gun forum posts that are more pro-gun than I'm comfortable with

I can't remember seeing any of the posts that you describe.

Virtually everyone here is pro-union, pro-teacher (in general -- there can be bad apples among any large group of people, including teachers), pro Medicare, pro Social Security, and pro - raising taxes on the wealthy.

Are you sure you haven't been wandering over to FR?

[fascisthunter]

118. not sure.... be interesting to read what the owners of this site think

just be honest. Come out and tell us what you advocate. Discussion is one thing, promoting is another.

[the Weird Liberal]

121. I couldn't agree more with this...

I used to think this was a pretty proudly liberal site, I am not on it and as active on it as I used to be as there are so many "centrist" (conservative) "Blue Dogs" and "New Democrats" on here that it's hard to tell them from the Republican trolls that are still on this site.
I know people who've been pretty much removed on here due to disagreeing with the Democratic Party's more conservative views (any of you remember 24EvelJustin24 who used to be pretty popular on here?) and some of my more controversial posts and even videos have been censored for not kowtowing to DLC/"Third Way" politics.

I don't think we should have purges like the UnFreeRepublic, but I think that devilgrrl is right, and DU should be more tough on conservatism (even conservative/moderate Democrats) and more friendly to liberalism and other left-wing ideologies. Otherwise people like me will move on or continue to move on to other sites.

This is Democratic Underground. True Democrats are liberal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Progressive_Caucus

These are Republicans pretending to be Democrats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Dog_Coalition

These are corporate/Wall Street-controlled Independents who pretend to be Democrats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democrats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(think_tank)

I live in a very conservative area, and I can tell you that liberalism works even where I am, with Democrats having success in the (historically) Republican main city and increasing success in the rest of the county. But the National and State parties are angry at local Democrats here for having supported Joe Sestak over Arlen Specter and we get little help in terms of Congressional candidates and the like (not sure if it's due to our liberalism, but Joe Pitts is not invulnerable especially after redistricting, but I digress...)

I may be a young volunteer for the local Democratic party where I am, but I do know this: true liberal Democrats support WE THE PEOPLE, and moderate/conservative ones generally are more interested in taking money (I talked to a young paid conservative Democratic employee who admitted he would likely switch to the GOP if they paid him more than the Democrats).

The point is that if true liberal patriots like us do not control these sites, how can we possibly retake our party and help make America what it can be?

Forgive my rant... and I may or may not be on here in the future, but devilgrrl, if you are for real, thank you for your brave post and stance, but beware... higher ups will not take your comments too kindly...

For the rest of you: continue to work hard, and fight for those less fortunate than you, or you are not worthy to call yourself an American, much less a Democrat, a liberal, or a progressive.

[woo me with science]

128. Excellent post.

Yes, it is propaganda, and, yes, it is orchestrated.

[Sherman A1]

122. Well,

You are entitled to your opinon, no matter how sweeping the generalizations it seems to contain. That said everyone else is also entitled to their opinions and they are as valid as yours.

[Douglas Carpenter]

124. I think you are exaggerating. Not that I doubt that some people have said those things

There are some in fact a number of "My President right or wrong" types who might defend actions by the Obama Administration that they would condemn if it was a Republican Administration.

There are some people who are progressive on almost everything except a specific issue - sometimes guns - sometimes the Israel/Palestine conflict -- sometimes women's issues --sometimes civil libertarians issues - sometimes on issues like the use of drones - sometimes whatever issue that triggers an otherwise bleeding heart liberal to suddenly move to the right of Mussolini on whatever issue sets of some kind of emotive reaction

I really have not found your list above to be the rule - but to be the exceptions and pretty much the rare exception


We get to read about how awful labor unions are.

Definitely a minority opinion on DU


That Women are more or less worthless.

I can't say I have ever heard anyone imply that on DU

Shut up and look pretty b____.

Again I don't recall anyone ever implying that on DU


Public School Teachers are responsible for kids not learning anything.

Certainly a minority opinion here on DU. I don't recall anyone implying that here on DU. But I could imagine that it is possible someone has on an occasion or two.


Medicare and Social Security are making the country go broke.

Again certainly a minority opinion here on DU. I don't recall anyone implying that here on DU. But I could imagine that it is possible someone has on an occasion or two.


You can't raise taxes on billionaires because they'll leave.

I can imagine that may have been said or implied here on DU on an occasion or two. But it would have been exceptional and definitely someone saying that would learn quickly that they are in the minority.


Don't like your job? Start your own business - it's THAT easy.

Now, I have heard that once or twice during the past seven or eight years I have posted on DU. But it was not the normal opinion here.


Shoot first - ask questions later, an armed society is a polite society.


There are a few gun lover types -even a few you might call gun nuts. But they are by far the exception.

[pop topcan]

129. The thing is, 90% or so of all Democrats in the U.S. are moderate/middle of the road.

You can't realistically expect everyone to agree in every way on every issue so as to qualify as a TRVE Democrat. If you want it to be "liberalunderground" you might ask the owners to change it, but as I read the mission statement that ain't it. There are millions of genuine, upstanding Democrats who aren't
frothing liberals in every possible way.

[Capt. Obvious]

130. Don't Know For

sure what you're talking about

[amborin]

135. "new" normal? it's been that way for quite a while now

that's why many have left (in one way or another)

[Shivering Jemmy]

136. If this is a problem there is a solution.

Post your opinion more often.

[Nye Bevan]

138. You have 242 posts in the last 90 days. If DU sucks so much, why are you such an active participant?

It's not like DU is the only political message board in the world. What makes you keep coming back?

And why do you choose to fork over cash to this website to be a star member?

[Nye Bevan]

143. I guess you missed this thread... 30 recs, 180 replies.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014324351

Like you, I actively participate in DU and choose to contribute financially.

[dionysus]

155. you just insulted the entire board by calling us right wingers. nt

[SidDithers]

144. Well said...

Sid

[KoKo]

139. Eat the PROPAGANDA for the "NEW NORMAL"

It's good for you ....it's dessert with Cherry on Top!

WE WON... THE ROMNEY AND REPUGS ARE DEAD!

I have your same worries...I only hope that "Truth Will Out."

It's something to live for....but, I still wonder how it came to this. That we have to accept lies to elect a President that will Fight for Us......and I'm waiting.

I hear 'ya...I'm waiting...

[Jamastiene]

149. I won't try to prove you wrong.

I will just Rec because I agree. The place sure isn't what it used to be.

[dionysus]

150. one would have to be huffing glue to think DU is "right wing"

[naaman fletcher]

154. "Shut up and look pretty b____. "

I've never read any such thing. Got any examples?

[woo me with science]

164. K&R The chocolate ration has not been increased. nt

[NashvilleLefty]

168. NOTHING of what you say is true. PROVE to me that it is.

You made the statement, the proof is on you to prove it is true.

I am listening.

[sabrina 1]

171. Taking your comment with a grain of salt, as you requested!

[longship]

170. It's a political forum, devilgrrrl.

You expect political purity on a political forum?

I suspect that it's your expectations of political purity are what's crossing you up. Alas, I also consider myself to be a liberal, socialist Democrat.

But DU's diversity is what separates us, and our party, from the only other alternative in this country, from a practical perspective.

My take, and my solution is to engage rigorously and respectfully in the discussions here. (It is what rational people do, as counter to our collective opponents.)

Plus, Skinner et al have given all DUers the tools to make everybody's DU experience as good as you want it. Kill Thread is your friend. And you can kill whole forums, too. If a DUer is annoying you, or being a poor DU citizen, you can ignore him or her.

Then, you get to be a lot less frustrated and your valuable posts can be enjoyed by those DUers who value the discussion, even when there is disagreement.

That, my friend, is DU's value. Above the cutting edge reportage and everything.

Stay with it, devilgrrrl. There are many at your side.

[mzmolly]

173. WTF

are you talking about?

You are wrong.

[aikoaiko]

177. Locking.

Sorry for the late lock, but there is a prohibition on meta posts in GD.