Exploding pagers injure hundreds in attack targeting Hezbollah members, Lebanese security source says

[LiberalArkie]

Updated 11:14 AM EDT, Tue September 17, 2024

CNN
—
Hundreds of people were injured Tuesday in an attack targeting the pagers of Hezbollah members, a Lebanese security source told CNN, with state media reporting that dozens of members of the militant group were wounded.

Iran’s Ambassador to Lebanon, Mojtaba Amani, was among those injured in Beirut, according to Iranian state media. He has a superficial injury and is currently under observation in the hospital, state media IRNA reported, citing his wife.

Lebanon’s Ministry of Health has urged citizens who possess pagers to discard them and warned hospitals to be on “high alert.”

State media NNA reported that “hacked” pager devices exploded in the towns of Ali Al-Nahri and Riyaq in Lebanon’s central Beqaa valley, resulting in a significant number of injuries. The locations are Hezbollah strongholds.

Snip

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/17/middleeast/lebanon-hezbollah-pagers-explosions-intl/index.html

Question: just how in the world is Israel blowing up pagers of all things? Rechargeable batteries?

[Darwins_Retriever]

1. THAT IS AWESOME (nt)

x

[Sneederbunk]

103. Next they go after their fax machines and Blackberries.

[Maru Kitteh]

246. Turns out, you weren't that far off! Walkie-talkies for the win. nt

[JackSabbath]

109. Kids and pets got hurt.

Might as well poison the water supply. FU.

[elias7]

142. Or might as well let them blow up Israelis, because that's really their raison d'etre

I don’t understand how people take the time to realize that terrorists are people too, and that they have families and pets and children, while at the same time don’t accept retaliation from their victims as being a valid response.

[Beastly Boy]

182. Oh noes! Not the kids! Not the pets!

Oh wait, what kids? What pets? Who hurt them? Any confirmation of what you are talking about?

On the completely unrelated side note: Hezbollah confirms, over 2,000 of their operatives got hurt. Might as well euthanize all the puppies at the ASPCA.

[3Hotdogs]

213. Really?

[Bmoboy]

2. Similar to plot line of Kingsman movie?

[TheBlackAdder]

129. Note to self: Don't put my pager or cell phone in my front pants pocket. 🔥 🌰🌰 🔥

[sdfernando]

203. I'm in trouble already....

I have 2 phones....one for work and one personal. I usually carry one in my front left pocket and the other in my rear left pocket...I'm sure my gonads are all irradiated by now so I guess it doesn't matter!

[Beastly Boy]

184. And remarkably resembling the just leaked Mossad tapes of the operation. Rockets and all:

[sarisataka]

3. They are blowing them up with the space lasers, of course

I am just waiting to find out if this is a war crime, an act of genocide or both...

[haele]

12. Nope. It's not targeting civilians. However, Hezbollah is not the government of Lebanon.

Lebanon is a sovereign nation with a Christian president - even though there is a corruption crisis going on in their government. It's a Democratic Tri-partied government between Sunni (Lebanese Palestinian refugees are primarily Sunni), Shia (Hezbollah is Shia), and Christian (generally Arab Druze). And Lebanon is also considered an ally of the US, like Egypt and Turkey.

While Hezbollah is a Iranian proxy (sort of like the NRA is a Russian Proxy), it is not officially the Shia representative within the Lebanese government.

So, does Israel have permission from the government of Lebanon to target Hezbollah when Hezbollah fires rocket into Israel?

If so, what they've done is fine. I'm not saying it's lawful or "good", but considering some of the shit our CIA does, I'm grateful it's just targeting Hezbollah members and not including family members, neighbors, or random business owners. This sort of attack is almost civilized, if not for the fact it is being done in a separate sovereign nation.

While not trying to snark your position, in a geo-political sense, why haven't they targeted Hamas in Gaza in a similar manner?
After all, Hamas, originally Shia, rose from loud, pushy minority/majority tribe amongst the Palestinians in Gaza (for whatever reason - they didn't rise to power with more than 36% of the vote over a decade ago), and are apparently continuing to gain support amongst the Arab tribes that wouldn't normally align with them due to the virulently religious Sunni/Shia divide.

Haele

[sarisataka]

14. We already have people defending Hezbollah and saying this is a war crime

You do bring up an interesting point, that Lebanon is a sovereign nation. No one denies Hezbollah is attacking Israel from Lebanese territory without explicit permission from the Lebanese government.

It begs the question "must Israel endure the attacks without any response even if the Lebanese government can't/won't take action against Hezbollah?"

[tritsofme]

23. Certain folks sure do seem to get upset when Israel gets in the way of their Hezbollah/Hamas buddies....

[haele]

61. That's because most people who don't know average people from that area think black and white.

Gotta be a good guy, gotta be a bad guy.

Frankly, I blame the British (and the French) for playing both sides against the other throughout the 19th century and early 20th century.

The Middle East is tribal. It has always been tribal.
There were always radicals and the occasional tribal absolutist, but the majority of the tribal Arabs; Arab Muslims, Arab Jews, Arab Christians, and the various flavors of those religions in between, were comfortable with a collective idea of regional "state" with common laws allowing for socio-economic tribal security despite the different customs between them. They all considered themselves "People of the Book" after the fall of the remnants of the Roman Empire and the rise of Arab Islam.
Muslim Despots might come in and rule for a couple decades any particular region causing upheaval every couple hundred years, but the majority of the time, local government always settled down to the idea of community and stability between the tribes living there. There were communities of non-Muslims living in communities for a thousand years and longer throughout Muslim dominated regions of sub-saharan Africa and the Middle East up through the 20th century.

But the Europeans had to muck around forcing rigid state identities with random geographic boundaries and appointed the richest tribe who would work with them in those states as governing bodies - and finally setting up overarching bureaucratic government systems to make these new states "western", no matter what the customs or privileges the previous tribal system had in place for centuries. A lot of tribes and religious communities, especially the migratory ones, still have problems adapting to these official "states" that split their tribes and communities into new, distinct countries.

Haele

[Hekate]

53. Thanks, Haele. Very interesting, and substantive.

[jmbar2]

63. More info coming in

Link to tweet

[Mosby]

72. Hezbollah has been part of the lebanese government since 1992.

Hezbollah has been a fixture of the Lebanese government since 1992, when eight of its members were elected to Parliament, and the party has held cabinet positions since 2005. The party marked its integration into mainstream politics in 2009 with an updated manifesto that was less Islamist than its predecessor and called for “true democracy.” The most recent national elections, in 2022, saw Hezbollah maintain its 13 seats in Lebanon’s 128-member Parliament, though the party and its allies lost their majority.

Hezbollah essentially operates as a government in the areas under its control, and neither the military nor federal authorities can counter this, Arab Barometer analysts MaryClare Roche and Michael Robbins write for Foreign Affairs. It manages a vast network of social services that include infrastructure, health-care facilities, schools, and youth programs, all of which have been instrumental in garnering support for Hezbollah from Shiite and non-Shiite Lebanese alike. Even so, Arab Barometer polling in 2024 found that “despite Hezbollah’s significant influence in Lebanon, relatively few Lebanese support it.”

At the same time, Hezbollah maintains its military arm. Under the 1989 Taif Agreement, which was brokered by Saudi Arabia and Syria and ended Lebanon’s civil war, Hezbollah was the only militia allowed to keep its arms. The International Institute for Strategic Studies estimated in 2020 that the militia had up to twenty thousand active fighters and some twenty thousand reserves, with an arsenal of small arms, tanks, drones, and various long-range rockets. Analyst and Brigadier General (Ret.) Assaf Orion, of Israel’s Institute for National Security Studies, says Hezbollah possesses “a larger arsenal of artillery than most nations enjoy,” and a 2018 report from the Center for Strategic and International Studies called it “the world’s most heavily armed non-state actor.” In June 2024, experts speculated that Hezbollah has 150,000–200,000 rockets and missiles of various ranges.

Hezbollah (and Lebanon) are in violation of UNSCR 1559 and 1701, which call for the group to be disarmed.

[Beastly Boy]

185. The question is: does the government of the sovereign state of lebanon have Hezbollah's permission

to give Israel permission to to target the hell out of them?

I would speculate that the permission is already written and signed by the legitimately elected Maronite Christian President of Lebanon and is just awaiting Hezbollah's permission...

Oh wait, there hasn't been a legitimately elected President in Lebanon since 2016... and Hezbollah may have something to do with it.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

41. Duh

Clearly it is a genocidal war crime war criminal double genocide.

These nice young men were all ruthlessly targeted for the mere act of firing rockets at schools that killed a dozen kids. That’s resistance against occupation!

[jmbar2]

4. Pretty brilliant...

Someone had to distribute vulnerable pagers to the bad guys in advance. Can't wait to learn more about how they did it.

[onandup]

13. They weren't targeted to just "bad guys"

We know at least one child was killed.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

46. That's on Hizbollah

Harbor terrorists, and you’re in the crossfire. A lesson many need to relearn.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

106. And whose fault would that be?

Oh, let me guess, ISRAEL

[onandup]

116. Israel is responsible, as far as we know

Was this is a well targeted attack on fighters, or a spray and pray inside a population? Will be interested to learn more.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

121. Israel is responsible?

Gee, I haven't heard Israel claim responsibility yet.
Sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind already.
Biased much?

[onandup]

132. "as far as we know"

Are we really going to do that dance?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

134. As far as who knows?

You?
You immediately jump to the conclusion that Israel is responsible without even knowing if that's true.
And yes, we are going to do that dance.

[Hekate]

165. What happens when someone initiates a war? Israel did not initiate this war. When Germany...

…initiated WWI and WWII, if you were alive then would you have wept ONLY for the German children? Would you have blamed the British, the French, Belgians, Poles, Dutch, and all the other countries for fighting back, for bombing, for all the other deadly means they used to fight back and survive? Would you weep for THEIR children in their schools and marketplaces and holiday excursions? Or only for the children of the aggressor?

Or would you have recognized that the costs of war are vicious and many, and the blame rests on those who began it?

[onandup]

204. No one is credibly threatening the existence of Israel.

Rhetoric on both sides, though.

[thucythucy]

206. But they are firing rockets that hit Israeli schools

and kill Israeli children.

I take it you think Israel ought not to try to take out the people firing the rockets?

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor didn't "credibly threaten the existence" of the United States.

So you think the US military response was unjustified?

[Hekate]

207. Alas, that is exactly what the slogan "From the river to the sea" means. It means to do what was done in 1492...

… and attempt to drive all the Jews into the sea — every man, woman, and child.

That is what Intifada is about. That is what so many of the slogans and symbols being used by idiot American protestors are all about. Splashing red paint on people’s doors in a kind of triangle is a Hamas signal meaning “Kill the people inside.” This shit is pure Hamas.

If Hamas and Hezbollah and the rest gave a flying fig about Palestinians there is so much they could do to make their lives better. Instead they have kept them as miserable pawns for 70 years — because driving Israel off the face of the Earth is more important.

[onandup]

210. It has different meanings, depending on the speaker and context

Meanwhile, genocidal public statements are commonplace in Israel. Neither side has a monopoly on this type of speech.

[Hekate]

212. No, it does not, unless a person is one of those idiot US protestors who doesn't know what company they keep

Try again

[onandup]

218. Rashida Tlaib considers it an aspirational call

Link to tweet

[Hekate]

219. Nice. But in this case, Rashida is blowing smoke.

[onandup]

220. Bibi's Likud party has it's own version

The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.

[Hekate]

221. Change the goalposts

[thucythucy]

229. I notice you never answered my question.

You said no one is "creditably threatening" the existence of Israel, so evidently you think retaliating against those who fire rockets into Israel and kill Israeli children is therefore unjustified.

I mentioned that the Japanese Empire never "creditably threatened" the existence of the United States.

So American action after Pearl Harbor was therefore unjustified?

Did Osama bin Laden "credibly threaten" the existence of the United States?

Should we therefore not have gone after him in his hideaway in Pakistan?

So killing the citizens of a nation isn't enough? One has to "credibly threaten" the very existence of that nation, or else any action taken against those who attack it and kill its citizens is what? A war crime?

Just asking for a little clarification here.

[onandup]

243. I don't subscribe to your framing every Israeli action as "defending" itself

I think many are provocative.

Do you believe every Israeli military action is self-defense, or am I misunderstanding?

[thucythucy]

244. You are indeed misunderstanding. No, not every action taken by Israel is automatically justified in my mind.

But then, do you believe that every Israeli military action is unjustified?

To return again to my original point: you stated that no one is "credibly threatening" the existence of Israel. I might dispute that, considering that Iran for instance has at the very least pursued the development of nuclear weapons, and missiles to deliver them, and expressed an intention to destroy Israel, and has allied itself and is offering financial and material support to Hezbollah.

But setting that and other possible existential threats aside, you still haven't answered my question. Must a nation be threatened with complete subjugation and annihilation before it may respond to attacks upon its territory and people?

Again, Japan never posed an existential threat to the United States. There was zero possibility of Japanese troops occupying Washington DC, New York City, or even San Francisco and Los Angeles, in 1941-1945. Even the Japanese military conceded this, its entire war plan was based on knocking out the US fleet at Pearl Harbor and then attempting a negotiated settlement on terms favorable to Japan.

So, given there was no "existential threat"--was the US response to Pearl Harbor unjustified?

Or my more recent example. Bin Laden never was close to posing an existential threat to the US. Was American action taken to kill him, conducted in violation of the territory of a sovereign nation--Pakistan--in which civilians were killed, was that action unjustified?

Third time I'm asking you these questions.

[onandup]

245. Simply put

A country may be justified in military operations in self-defense even if the attacker does not pose a threat to its very existence. But that does not mean it is always justified, of course. That depends on the operation.

[wnylib]

216. Oh, FFS. How much more targeted can you get than the specific personal pagers

of members of the terrorist organization that is attacking Israeli civilians?

I care about the innocent bystanders who were injured and the child who died, too. They were NOT the targets, though. That's what happens in war. Innocent people get injured and killed. But, by specifically targeting Hezbollah, Israel kept the civilian casualties to a minimum.

I'd prefer to see no war in the ME at all. No injuries, no deaths. But I also believe in a nation's right to defend itself against terrorists.

[Beastly Boy]

189. Source, please?

[JackSabbath]

120. Yeah, how cool would it be if....

...the pager was left accidentally in a child's room or on the couch where the dog was napping?😃 what's next? Maybe bring back land mines! Stupid idiots!

[elias7]

145. And I'm guessing you live in a country with oceans on 2 sides, Canada to the North and Mexico to the South

Hezbollah has 150,000 missles embedded amongst Southern Lebanese citizens pointed into the heart of Israel. But maybe a pager was left accidentally in a child’s room? Are you joking?

[Beastly Boy]

196. What kind of incompetent terrorist would leave his Nasrallah issued pager in a child's room?

Or let his puppy play with it?

I thought pagers are meant to be kept in the immediate vicinity of the user, or else they lose any practical meaning, no?

[womanofthehills]

135. But doctors & nurses were injured too

Plus children and it’s being reported the Ukrainian ambassador to Lebanon was also injured.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

138. It wasn't the Ukrainian Amb.,

it was the Iranian Amb. who was injured, so what was an Iranian Amb. doing with a Hizabollah pager?

[sarisataka]

149. Excellent question

I'll bet a shiny nickel it goes unanswered

[MarineCombatEngineer]

157. Don't think I'll take that bet,

it's too much of an inconvenient truth.

[notroot]

179. Narrator: "It went unanswered."

[MarineCombatEngineer]

150. Are you going to correct this false info?

Plus children and it’s being reported the Ukrainian ambassador to Lebanon was also injured.

Among those wounded was Iran’s ambassador to Lebanon. The mysterious incident came amid rising tensions between Israel and Iran-backed Hezbollah, which have exchanged fire across the Israel-Lebanon border since the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas that sparked the war in Gaza.

https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-hezbollah-israel-exploding-pagers-8893a09816410959b6fe94aec124461b

Correcting false info is always the correct thing to do.

[notroot]

180. Narrator: "They were not going to correct the false info."

[Moosepoop]

5. I found this.

https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/lebanon-news/796406/what-to-know-about-pagers-and-how-they-can-explode/en

According to information obtained by LBCI, initial reports suggest the pager server was compromised, leading to the installation of a script that caused an overload. This likely resulted in the overheating of the lithium battery, which then exploded. The physical damage sustained by the device’s user can vary from severe to minor, depending on the area in contact with the device.

Compromised server, installation of script with resulting multiple overloads and overheating/explosions of the batteries in the pagers.

This isn't verified and concrete, it's still at the "reports suggest" stage, but it does sound plausible to me.

[LiberalArkie]

6. I thought the lithium but I remembered the pager I used to carry ran about 3 months on a AAA battery

I can't understand the rational behind a device changing where you can power it up by a battery you bought anywhere or being tied to charging it (every night).

[Amishman]

10. The battery as the explosive is extremely unlikely when comparing against the videos coming out

We're seeing videos of the devices going off with enough force to blow holes in a dresser, launch pieces across the room, and in general go off with great sudden force.

A lithium battery - even one intentionally ruptured or catastrophically shorted - is too slow of a reaction to cause that kind of explosive effect. Plus if it were some function of shorting the battery, I would expect there to be noticeable fire in the videos, which there is not.

My guess is there had to be some sort of true explosive inside the pagers.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. Completely Agree

A lithium oxidation would be barely fast enough to qualify as a conflagration.
I'm not envisioning how a blast wave could be generated.

[mikelewis]

18. Well, that's not really true. It depends on the sheathing...

The battery case could be more rugged and the accelerated lithium gasses could create quite a bang. If it were an intentional thing... put a little chip in the battery that responds to the pager and boom. Instant distraction or even disabling... clever. Wouldn't kill you but could burn the shit out of you. Look at the vape cigarette dispenser that have been exploding... my guess, that's where they got the idea if Mossad did do this.

Or... less conspiratorial... they all just got some shitty batteries.


But here's the thing... who the fuck is still using pagers? Is Israel being attacked by the Flintstones?
Perhaps Hezbollah should watch the Wire.

[Amishman]

34. Even with a casing - using the battery like a pipe bomb - you'd still have pyrotechnics

I'm not seeing any fire at all in the videos I've come across

[mikelewis]

74. Oh... I don't remotely think Israel is behind this at all...

It looks like a bad batch of batteries. I've bought a bunch of cheap ones from Aliexpress and that's what they look like when they explode...Them exploding all at the same time just means it was the same production run. I would hate to be that vendor right about now.

[JoseBalow]

77. "less conspiratorial"

Thousands of "shitty batteries" coincidentally belonging only to Hezbollah terrorists? That sounds like the conspiracy theory to me.

[mikelewis]

83. Or a donation from Iran or Russia more likely.

And it wouldn't be coincidence... it would be science. This is happening in more than just Hezbollah controlled areas, it's happening all over and unless you're suggesting Israel has also attacked Syria... maybe we should wait and see. Maybe you're right... who knows?

[marybourg]

78. They're using pagers because Israel has already hacked their cell phones.

Soon they’ll have to drop back to carrier pigeons.

[Mme. Defarge]

31. Merci

for posting this.

[rollin74]

7. 8 dead 2,750 injured

200 in critical condition

wow

[HAB911]

8. Note to self

Investigate if cell phones can be compromised in the same manner

[mikelewis]

21. Yes... a cell phone battery can explode in the same manner. It's not likely but they can...

Lithium batteries are safe but when bad shit happens... especially overcharging, you have a real problem. They heat up so fast and can charge so quickly, it's deceptive... you got to be careful with them or they explode. Cell phone batteries are usually very, very safe but just like driving a car with an airbag... it's possible that air bag could pop open, causing you to lose control and kill 37 people on the freeway. It's just not likely.

[HAB911]

25. If Israel can do pagers

I'm sure we can do cell phones

[mikelewis]

30. That's really a big if... while a clandestine attack like that is movie quality...

And most certainly within what the Mossad can and would do if they thought of it... it doesn't mean they did. It also doesn't mean it was Israel. False flag operations happen all the time. Injuring a few of their own could be strategic.

It could also have been us or MI6 or Russian agents or Iran 'whatevers' or hell, Liechtenstein might be feeling all feisty. Remember the Archduke Ferdinand? No? Me either... apparently that dude getting whacked started WWI. You never know who's playing what game... especially in the Middle East. It's just so fucking hot... it makes you fucking crazy!

My point being... and this strictly comes from reading the Lord of the Rings so many times, You just never know in war. That's pretty much why I avoid them... they're so above my paygrade.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

84. Theoretically...

Theoretically, they can do any device with a lithium ion battery. A bigger one in a phone or laptop would do much greater damage too.

There are a lot of terrorists who will be regressing to parchment and carrier pigeons after this glorious move.

[Hekate]

91. You betcha, says the techie across the breakfast table from me...

As for me, the fact that China makes so very much of our technology has always given me pause.

[HAB911]

99. Yes, I'm afraid when and if it hits the fan

there are a lot of things will happen we mortals never dreamed of

[TheProle]

9. .

[Johnny2X2X]

11. 8 dead 2800 injured

The dead and wounded include children.

This is against the rules of war.

[EX500rider]

81. There are rules of War concerning blowing up pagers?

Could you point out where that is?
Hezbolla is at war with Israel so Israel is at war with them.

So you think it's okay if they drop bombs on them to kill them but not pagers?

Which do you think would wound or kill more nearby civilians?

[Johnny2X2X]

89. Which has killed more nearby civilians?

Israel has lost 27 civilians to Hezbollah, each one a crime IMO. That's not OK to launch missiles at civilian or mostly civilian populations. It's not OK to give exploding pagers to people either. Both can be wrong and both can be war crimes.

[EX500rider]

92. I think you'll find most people have no problem with giving exploding pagers to terrorists

A good rule for civilians might be don't take pages from terrorists and don't stand near them in case they are targeted

[EX500rider]

144. So you don't think it's okay to supply exploding pagers to terrorists which is what they did?

I highly doubt civilians have any need of a pager these days

[TheKentuckian]

169. Israel (and seemingly no one else either) never ratified the Safe Pagers for Terrorists

Article of the Geneva Convention.

What rule are you referring to?

[Beastly Boy]

194. According to whom?

That question goes for each of your statements.

[Mosby]

15. This could be a prelude to a larger operation.

They just took out Hezbos command structure.

[sarisataka]

17. Disrupting the enemy C3 is a good way to start an operation

and against an asymmetric opponent, making them question and distrust the routine items in their daily life turns the tables back against them.

Hezbollah must now consider how deep their communications have been compromised and has Israel inserted any other sabotaged items into their supply chain.

Israeli minister says time running out for diplomatic solution with Hezbollah in Lebanon

[mikelewis]

35. It may also be the cell phone companies ensuring that pagers never rise again... you just never know...

IF... and that is an If the size of say... a cow. Not an impossible If by any stretch but a pretty big If... If this was an attack by Israel then yes, it was absolutely brilliant. Completely disruptive and a wounded soldier is so much more effective than a dead one. My only contention is... I seriously doubt Hezbollah is outsourcing their pager technology to unknown vendors.

Here's the rub. Since Hezbollah is using pagers, it means someone provided them with that technology as it's almost impossible to jam or hack the code once intercepted. Ad hoc wifi networks and smoke signals aren't great alternatives to simply shouting. So... whoever provided that tech to Hezbollah also put in very rugged long lasting lithium batteries so they never have to be recharged... well not never but for a real long time. My guess... they over engineered the batteries and the pressure is just now breaking past the seals and causing a fire. It's not an attack... it's science.

[JoseBalow]

87. Is this satire?

[mikelewis]

97. No... it's just I saw no reason to immediately assume Israel was behind the attack...

It could have been bad batteries... however, I just saw that all the pagers had been pinged repeatedly to set them off... so no... this was most certainly an orchestrated attack. And a pretty nasty one, you gotta hand it to em.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

50. It is likely retaliation

The pagers all detonated a couple hours after a Hizbollah terror bombing attempt targeting an Israeli politician was disrupted.

[PeaceWave]

19. Is that an exploding pager in your pants or are you just happy to see me?

[Johnny2X2X]

20. This was a terror attack

You cannot target a civilian population for death and destruction like this.

[sarisataka]

22. Are terrorists civilians

no different from anyone else?

[Johnny2X2X]

26. Women and children were killed and maimed.

Israel didn't know who had these pagers, they just targeted Hezbollah to have a lot of them.

If any country did that the the US while targeting a specific group here, our country would go to war.

[sarisataka]

27. Since Hezbollah is already firing rockets

At Israeli towns I would say they are already at war.

I recall not so long ago Hezbollah struck a soccer field killing twelve children. What I do not recall was that being called a war crime. Nor was much concern expressed over the children.

[LexVegas]

28. I guess freedom fighters are civilians and can't commit war crimes. nt

[Johnny2X2X]

29. You think school children are legit targets for either side?

A fraction of those killed or injured were Hezbollah.

[former9thward]

39. What fraction?

[sarisataka]

43. Of course school children are not legitimate targets

Although you may have seen some will make an exception if they are Jewish children

[Johnny2X2X]

71. Horseshit

If it were Jewish children I would be every bit as disgusted.

It is not OK to kill children, period. Israel made the decision to kill some children here because it would also kill some terorrists, that's the type of thing that makes this a mess and both sides have a responsiblity to protect the innocent.

[sarisataka]

94. I did not claim you hold that position

I was asking if you have noticed how Jewish civilian deaths get much less attention or condemnation

[Johnny2X2X]

100. They get proportional attention

Hezbollah has killed 27 Israeli civilians with their illegal rocket attacks in this conflict. That's disgusting and deserves condemnation all 27 times. Israel has killed 150 Lebanese civilians in this current conflict, that is disgusting and deserves condemnation all 150 times.

Blowing up people's cellphones or pagers is a horrific new turn in war and cannot be seen as an acceptable form of warfare less we decide it's OK for terorrists to start blowing up our own phones in our own pockets or children's backpacks. This is an escalation we do not need.

[elias7]

146. Right, but don't forget that Israel has no beef with Lebanon. This is all on them.

If Hezbollah stopped shooting missiles at Israel tomorrow, Israel would be at peace with Lebanon. There is only one cause here, and that is Islamic militants such as Hezbollah and Hamas do not acknowledge the existence of Israel. They will only be satisfied when there is no state of Israel. I don’t see why people in the west don’t understand this.

[sarisataka]

154. Proportional, that is a word

nonexistent is another

It takes little observation of threads to notice there are far more who condemn "both sides" who show up when Israel does anything. The "both sides" condemnation is strangely absent when Israeli civilians are killed.

[LexVegas]

44. Are you waiting for the freedom fighters to verify the numbers? nt

[Johnny2X2X]

55. There are no freedom fighters

But I can tell you distributing boxes of pagers to a population and then blowing them up is in fact a war crime as there is no reasonable assurance who is going to end up with those little bombs.

This was a horrific war crime that injured hundreds of innocent civlians, maybe thousands. This was barbaric and needs to be roundly condemned. Only a monster thinks it's OK to turn pagers into bombs. And this wasn't turn one pager into a bomb knowing who would have the pager, this was turning thousands of them into a bomb knowing full well innocent children would have some of them. This is sick, this is evil. Other evils do not justify this evil.

[Coventina]

60. "There are no freedom fighters"...So Hezbollah is a gardening club?

[Johnny2X2X]

66. Hezbollah is a terorist organization

They are not freedom fighters. This attack targeting them was in fact a war crime though as many innocents were also killed and harmed. Children were killed in this attack. There was no way to know who would get thousands of these pagers, they just knew Hezbollah would have some of them. It's barbarism.

[Coventina]

70. GMAFB

Maybe terrorists shouldn't be hanging around children.

[newdeal2]

62. You seem to know more about this than anyone

Even though there are very few details available about how this happened.

I suggest waiting for details to come out.

[sarisataka]

98. Do you have a link to support that claim?

"injured hundreds of innocent civlians, maybe thousands."

[Hekate]

171. I am confused. Are you saying ISRAELIS "distributed boxes of pagers" ? Did you miss the part...

… about pagers being the communication device of choice for the terrorist group known as Hezbollah? That device being their choice would indicate that Hezbollah obtains them by themselves.

Now, if the Mossad did a Stuxnet operation….

[EX500rider]

85. And do you think the terrorists will tell you how many terrorists die compared to civilians?

Or will they ramp up the civilian count to get the sympathy vote from gullible westerners and people who are easily enraged at anything Israel does?

A good lesson maybe don't take communication devices from terrorists.

Although I doubt many civilians have much need for a pager these days.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

110. Really?

You have those figures, because I and the rest of us would love to see if your claim is true.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

190. What utter bullshit.

A fraction of those killed or injured were Hezbollah.

Not according to Hizbollah.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hezbollah-members-killed-many-injured-by-exploding-pagers-group-says/ar-AA1qIgOI?ocid=BingNewsSerp

Exploding pagers kill at least 9, including Hezbollah members; thousands wounded

Read it and weep.

[Mosby]

37. They were encrypted pagers used by Hezbollah

Nt.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

52. Heh

1) Hizbollah is already at war with Israel;

2) It’s ironic how we are all supposed to be upset when Hizbollah members get their family and friends injured, yet there’s zero outrage when they murder Israeli civilians in cold blood — including a dozen children at a school.

I say, let Hizbollah and their family members burn for a while. It reminds them that their attacks will result in them paying a heavy price themselves.

It also encourages Lebanese people to distance themselves from the terrorist group, as proximity to a Hizbollah terrorist is dangerous for one’s health.

[Amishman]

166. Given the number of Hezbollah agents maimed

Relative to the handful of civilians harmed, I'd say this was an extremely precise and humane operation.

Seriously wounding 4000 members of Hezbollah - many of them higher up in the organization - probably saves 100x as many innocents in the long run compared to the number of innocents injured in this strike.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

51. It was a counter-terror operation

The pager network targeted was the Hizbollah pager system.

NOBODY with a Hizbollah pager is a “civilian.”

[mathematic]

147. Precisely targeting the communications network of an opposing militia is not a terror attack.

Conflating valid military targets like Hezbollah's communication network with the civilian population is propaganda.

[newdeal2]

24. They better check the fax machines now

And any spare VHS tapes.

[Otto_Harper]

101. And then Walkman and MP3 players

[Bonx]

32. Terrorists officially terrorized. Brilliant.

This should seriously undermine their abilities and confidence.

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

33. Pager blasts also reported now in Syria

This would appear to be a rapidly escalating story. I'm tracking at The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/sep/17/middle-east-crisis-live-netanyahu-expands-gaza-war-aims-blinken-heads-to-egypt

I'm really curious to know how Israel may have rigged pagers headed to market in neighboring Arab nations, and why they exploded today. I also wonder how many other countries may have received exploding pagers, and whether that would provide the motivation that could unify a disunited bunch of Israel's neighbors to attack Israel simultaneously.

[mikelewis]

42. Seriously... it could just a major run of poorly engineered lithium batteries...

This may look like a coincidence but I honestly think it's just bad batteries and this is significant because attack or not... I now know that the islamic world is using long lasting pagers to communicate. I didn't know that... I think that's actually clever. I don't believe it's anything more than faulty engineering but I could most certainly be wrong. Still, it's interesting to think about... I thought pagers were dead and gone... or just what doctors still used...

[Mosby]

47. Why would they all fail at the same time?

[mikelewis]

58. Physics...

There are seals that keep the elements from touching each other. If they touch, they short out. As the device is used, if the seals develop a ground, that ground will eat away at the seal and then... well boom. If the same seal was used and the same device was using it... presumably they were all left on constantly... then yeah... you have a bunch of time bombs.

[Otto_Harper]

105. Which cannot and will not

all simultaneously detonate. If yo really understand the physics, then temperature and pressure exposure history of each battery would dictate its time of deflagration. Then the is the probability field which contains all of these devices.

That's why there are such things as product recalls. The early failures warn you of the impending wave about to happen. These all went off at the same moment. At best, some software or firmware accident. At worst, an intentional action.

[Disaffected]

118. That's not sufficient to explain

the rapid series of detonations - the detonations would almost certainly be more spread out if a manufacturing defect was at fault.

As well, as pointed out by others here, lithium batteries do not typically "explode" when they fail, rather they smolder and/or burst into flame.

[Mosby]

137. They all exploded simultaneously

According to the reports.

Thousands of people were injured across Lebanon on Tuesday when electronic pagers used by the militant group Hezbollah simultaneously exploded around 3:30 p.m., the group and Lebanese officials said, in what experts said may have been an unprecedented attack by Israel that possibly involved sabotaging the devices before they were delivered.

Dmitri Alperovitch, chairman of Silverado Policy Accelerator, a national security think tank, said: “This looks to be perhaps the most extensive physical supply-chain attack in history — substituting imported devices with those containing explosives and triggering them all at the same time through some sort of command and control channel.”

Do you have some inside info that the Washington Post doesn't?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/09/17/lebanon-pagers-exploding-hezbollah/

[Otto_Harper]

224. Absolutely, I have inside information

The simultaneous explosions were not caused by "Physics". They were caused by an intentional detonation event, controlled by an outside entity. A whole production run of anything will not simultaneously detonate, to within seconds, due to "Physics"

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

239. With the information at this time, it would appear not.

Last edited Wed Sep 18, 2024, 02:43 AM - Edit history (1)

Enough sources are stating (and The NY Times cites an anonymous source) that the phones contained explosives that were simultaneously triggered somehow, and that they were prepared by some branch of the Israeli state. We don't know enough of the particulars yet, however.

If Hezbollah in general was the target, and Mossad, Shin Bet, Aman, or a more secret branch of Israeli intelligence thought the phones were all going to the Lebanese political party/militia; it would appear that, after about 3000 people injured, that at least some of those pagers found their way into the public marketplace. I expect casualty revisions over the next few days and both the dead and wounded totals to rise Hezbollah has announced that two of its men were killed. As of right now (23:00 MDT, 17 Sept.), two other deaths have been reported; the son of a Hezbollah MP and a little girl. That leaves four of the eight reported deaths as "unknown." Various sources report that the Iranian Ambassador to Lebanon was injured, though we don't know how seriously. The only other story about a wounded person I've seen reported was a guy shopping in a grocery store whose pager explosion was reportedly caught on store cameras. His political affiliation is unreported and no, we can't jump to conclusions.

Again, we need more solid data before we can understand enough of what happened to draw conclusions. That's really hard given the region and its politics and press, as well as the highly emotional biases of supporters and detractors of the hostile parties outside the region.

[Mosby]

45. Hezbollah bought a new batch of pagers 3 months ago.

Hezbo programmed them presumably, using encryption. Somewhere along the line the Israelis gained access to them.

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

57. The evidence so far suggests that Hezbollah weren't the only ones

to have been the consumers for this product. We need more information before jumping to conclusions, though.

[Beastly Boy]

199. The evidence so far suggests they were.

Or atleast they were intended to be
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hezbollah-official-exploded-pagers-were-a-new-brand-replaced-cellphones-at-nasrallahs-order/

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

186. Your source for this information?

[EX500rider]

230. Obviously those were allies of Hezbollah

Why else will they have encrypted Hezbollah pagers

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

238. Seems to me that very little is obvious in war,

Last edited Wed Sep 18, 2024, 02:08 AM - Edit history (1)

except there being lots of death, injury, destruction, deprivation, civilian casualties .. and misinformation. Getting to the specifics of the who, the what, the where, the when, and especially the why and the how, is difficult.

[BannonsLiver]

36. Despite the boo hooing from people who hate Israel

This is an interesting operation. And one that didn't involve the 2,000 bombs they've been complaining about. Gee, it's almost as if it's not about the method but more about Jews protecting themselves. Who woulda thunk it!

[Shipwack]

38. In other news, people still use pagers...

Seriously, though… why?

I’m sure there’s a reasonable explanation that my euro-centric mind wouldn’t think of, and I am truly interested in the background of this.

[mikelewis]

48. Well... think about it...

Long lasting batteries... with two lithium batteries a pager could last for months. The pages go through when the towers come back online so it's not like you miss a call when the power goes out... which it does constantly... it's reliable and cheap and last forever... almost... I just never thought about it either.

[Bonx]

49. They thought they could be stealthier with low-tech -nt

[Bmoboy]

54. Pagers may not have GPS built in like cell phones

Terrorists don't like to be tracked.

Didn't they find Osama by monitoring cell phones?

[hack89]

79. No two way messages to intercept and read

Send a cryptic one way message via pager and the recipient goes to his handy dandy printed list of codes to see what action is required of him.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

40. Absolutely beautiful

Turns out that the Hizbollah terrorists are far less enthusiastic about explosions and casualties when it’s happening in their own homes, workplaces and cars.

[misanthrope]

56. Novel approach

My only concern would be others in proximity in public space, although the surveillance video showed others very near the targets who appeared uninjured.

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

59. Does this date have any significance to anyone in the region?

I'm not familiar enough with religious and cultural holidays and other commemorations of the Levant to know. If it was indeed a terrorist attack, I don't think it's because it's International Country Music Day.

[Bev54]

64. Hard to hide that you belong to the terrorist group if you have an exploding pager.

[TheRealNorth]

65. Great job de-escalating things Joe

I am reading about a lot of noncombatants being hurt in this, so it doesn't seem like it was a targeted, but that the IDF just blew up a bunch of pagers because they knew Hezbollah also used them.

So I don't know why the hell people here are cheering about indiscriminate attacks in Lebanon.

[newdeal2]

68. What does Joe have to do with this?

We have no real details about how this happened or the planning involved. It’s such a crazy scenario that it’s better to wait for some facts than speculate based on what’s being reported in the moment.

[Coventina]

73. Don't you know? He's the King of the Middle East!

He controls everything!

Just like Obama did, back in the day.....

[mikelewis]

80. Wanna hear something crazy...

I hear that Joe farted at Camp David and a wall in a Jericho garden fell over. Scared poor Mrs. Leibowitz half to death. True story.

[mcar]

75. Joe?

What are you talking about?

[EX500rider]

88. You really think a lot of civilians are using encrypted Hezbollah pagers?

Normal civilians will have cheap cell phones

[tritsofme]

90. A gratuitous and nonsense pot-shot at a Democratic president? Shocking!

[sarisataka]

102. It's Biden's fault?

Have to admit I didn't see that coming.

You may want to look up the meaning of indiscriminate. And it's antonym, targeted.

[BannonsLiver]

111. This might make you feel better

[Hekate]

175. What?

[Brother Buzz]

67. Stuxnet redux?

Curious to learn where these pagers/components were manufactured

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

86. Yeah, I had a similar reaction.

It does have the look of Mossad overkill, but we need more evidence.

[EX500rider]

231. Taiwan i read

[Brother Buzz]

233. They are a major chip manufacturer

Oh, but to have been a fly on the wall when the Israelis convinced them to insert a little extra code into the chips.

[nolabear]

69. What if someone had been in a plane? Or driving?

I can think of a whole lot of potential disasters here. It’s fascinating but scary as hell.

[Coventina]

95. You should have your pager off while flying. n/t

[RussBLib]

76. Has Trump taken credit for this yet?

....I mean, being such a stable genius and all.

https://russblib.blogspot.com/

[newdeal2]

82. He showed Abdul a photo of his pager

Abdul said no way. Trump said way.

[mikelewis]

93. Ok... so this is interesting. Apparently the pagers were pinged just before exploding... that changes things...

According to Jerusalem post reports, the pagers were deliberately called for a brief duration just prior to the explosion. This tactic was apparently designed to increase the likelihood that the recipient would answer the call and suffer the greatest possible harm when the blast occurred.

A senior Lebanese security source told Al-Hadath that Israel infiltrated the communication system of individual devices and detonated them.

According to reports, the phones were called before the explosion for some period of seconds to increase the chance that whoever received the call would pick it up and be maximally wounded.

Jerusalem Post

Yeah... if that turns out to be true then yeah, Israel probably did a dirty deed here... done dirt cheap.

[TheKentuckian]

187. Eliminating terrorist is a "dirty deed"?

Some of y'all are off the rails.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

191. Not only off the rails, but over the cliff also.

[Arne]

96. If only there was some way to make nuclear centrifuges

spin out of control.

[FullySupportDems]

104. Well here's hoping Hezbollah never sends members here

Because that would mean any civilian here might be a meaningless number too. By the hundreds, and mostly women with children. And its fine, right? Who needs laws of war? Rules, laws, I mean honestly how quaint. We're ok with might makes right. We're the United States, so we'll be fine.
/End Rant.

[Coventina]

108. Please provide the link to the rule of war that says enemy communications are an illegitimate target.

TIA

[FullySupportDems]

122. Sure, like I said, any civilian anywhere as policy?

Enemy communications as a legitimate target knowing it will kill hundreds of civilians?

I stand by my statement. If it's permissible to kill hundreds of civilians, because they have the misfortune to be in close proximity of suspected (it's not like there's a trial or anything) terrorists, then we better hope there are no suspected Hezbollah members here.

I feel like you find this point as meaningless as the hundreds of people who died in Lebanon.

But to your question, I've always thought collateral punishment of civilians was against international law. And they knew the exploding pagers would kill civilians; it was not an accident so many civilians were killed.

[Coventina]

124. Please provide the link that states attacks on communications are illegal.

TIA

[MarineCombatEngineer]

125. How many civilians were actually killed?

Who is reporting this?
Do you have links to this claim, and not from a Hizbollah source, but a legitimate source?

[FullySupportDems]

128. I don't understand your question

Are you asking if any civilians were actually killed, or how many?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

131. .....

And they knew the exploding pagers would kill civilians; it was not an accident so many civilians were killed.

You're claiming that many civilians were killed. please provide a legitimate source for this claim, and just who is providing these numbers.

I'll wait..............

[FullySupportDems]

152. I'll have to look, I thought it was reported everywhere

I didn't think the deaths of many civilians was an actual question. Wasn't it in the article? I'll have to look.

But I don't think the number, or exact number of dead and injured matters as much as the idea that this action is somehow acceptable if it is true at all. That's my argument. I would rejoice with the rest of you if only terrorists were killed. I'm not comfortable with not worrying about the truth if it, laughing at people who have the nerve to question it. I'll gladly jump on the happy bandwagon if it turns out reports of civilian deaths were wrong.

Let's say it is true, that many innocent civilians were killed? What is your opinion on that?

[FullySupportDems]

155. Looks like someone else found a source

[MarineCombatEngineer]

156. My opinion would be that those deaths would be on the terrorist org., Hizbollah,

but at this point, we don't know it it was Israel, who, so far, have not claimed responsibility.

[FullySupportDems]

223. I understand no one has taken credit for blowing up the pagers

But I cannot agree that the deaths are on Hizbollah. Unless you mean Hizbollah planned and executed the attacks, but I don't think you do.

I am taking this to mean that, no matter who planned and executed the attacks with complete disregard of civilian casualties, it was a permissible act of war and can be blamed on the various holders of beepers themselves. And their terrorist organization.

I don't think we'd buy into that philosophy if it was used on us here. Maybe it's just a matter of time, who knows.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

114. You don't know crap about waging war do you?

It's perfectly legitimate and smart to disrupt an enemy's Command and Control system, which, BTW, includes going after the comms being used, as is in this case.

[FullySupportDems]

127. I don't know crap about waging war?

No, I probably don't. I learned about the Geneva Convention and the reasons for it in the military, but it was just a course they gave us and wasn't my specialty.

Justifying the targeting of communications systems is one thing, and it's debatable. Killing the hundreds of civilians in close proximity to get it is not. And I don't see how you can change my mind.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

130. Thanks for proving my point.

Justifying the targeting of communications systems is one thing, and it's debatable

There is nothing debatable about this, going after an enemy's communications system is a legitimate target, full stop.

[FullySupportDems]

140. No, it is Not

Proving something is a legitimate target does not give permission to use any means or kill any civilians around it without regard, with good certainly many will be killed. Or do you think it does? I'm not sure.

Furthermore, this was emphatically NOT an attack on their communications devices. Let's just stop with that lie. Hacking their pagers, disabling them or simply setting them on fire would have "attacked their communications systems" without any need to kill anyone. They intended to kill. It was the purpose of them exploding.

So please, if we're going to discuss this, stop saying it was an attack on terrorist communications. It was not.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

141. Again, you proved my point.

You really do know nothing about warfare.
Keep digging.

[FullySupportDems]

160. Well then 'splain it to me what who says he's a

Marine Combat Engineer

What part of killing civilians who get in the way as policy works for you? Who they are and where they live? Or whose doing the killing?

Honestly, disregarding how unlawful it is to allow unaccountable murder, by calling it war? Dude, that's WHY we have rules of war.

I maintain that if it happened here, it would not be acceptable. So why are we okay with it happening in Lebanon?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

162. ....

Well then 'splain it to me what who says he's a
Marine Combat Engineer

Oh, so you want to go that route?
Buh bye.

[FullySupportDems]

167. I think you don't have an answer

Pointing with humor to your login as a reason I strongly disagree, because it sounds like you should surely know better than to be okay with killing civilians, I don't think you're all that insulted.

I think you don't have the words to say, Yes, it's okay to kill those civilians. Because that's all I'm getting.

[Hekate]

178. I think you are ignorant past belief if you don't recognize that DU's veterans have knowledge & experience...

…that deserve respect

Just sayin’

[FullySupportDems]

226. I AM a DU veteran

If calling attention to someone's self identification in a slightly chiding manner is disrespectful, I guess I'm sorry. But since when were vets so thin skinned? I'm not. I'm not name calling or attacking the messenger

I'm really looking for an answer. How is it okay to basically plan on civilian injuries when planning a military operation? It was not accidental. It was not unavoidable. So if it is claimed by Israel, or any other country, I am saying it was wrong.

I'm also wondering, is Israel officially at war with Lebanon? Maybe I just don't understand this. I guess anyone in the country is a legitimate target if they're at war. It's not like there are any rules about that.

Nope, you're right. I am definitely ignorant past believing.

[sarisataka]

168. Welcome to DU, my apologies for neglecting to extend that before

Suggestion- your next post should be an apology to MCE for questioning his service. I provided overwatch of his M9 ACE in combat as he cleared a minefield. It wasn't until we "met" on DU that we discovered our connection. His vehicle was distinctive and so we were able to confirm our service together though not meeting face to face

[FullySupportDems]

174. I will try to be respectful

It's hard to follow this thread, but I think this was directed at me? I'll work up to a reply to CME. I'm truly trying to discuss the tactics. No, I don't question his service. I figured there was some heavy duty action in his background. I was Air Force, but marines were great, good to work with and so well trained. Looking at you MCE. I'm sure my 10+ years stateside does not compare with either of you. I don't think my USTanscom coin would win any drinks with you all.

But I have an appreciation of what military action means, and I don't see how these actions are acceptable.

I have to get. I forgot to say thanks!

[Hekate]

205. So just out of curiosity, what did your decade of Air Force experience involve that meant you...

… never learned what is and is not a legitimate target in time of war? I’m sure I’m putting that badly — I’m not asking for national secrets or anything, but the Air Force is military, and loss of life is expected sooner or later. It’s part of the trade, so to speak — unpleasant, but a fact.

People who are terrorists (1) don’t care who the hell they kill or maim — see 10-7-2023, and also 9-11-2001. After 9-11 my Massachusetts sister’s children returned to school to discover that among their schoolmates there were two grandmas who had died when their airplanes hit the Twin Towers — and of course all the people in themTwin Towers were civilians. (2) Terrorists are a danger to all who associate with them, and it just fuels them for further terrorism. (3) They don’t wear uniforms and they hide in the civilian population, and they do this deliberately. (4) There is no conceivable way to target only terrorists.

[FullySupportDems]

232. Well, I learned that after WW2 there was a trial

For war criminals, because it turns out the world did not agree it was okay to literally do anything you want to the enemy. Especially the noncombatants. There are rules for prisoners. There are rules of combat. There are rules against collateral damage as punishment directed at civilians.

There are reasons for those rules and laws. They weren't considered quiant or not applicable to the future. And people like me just bright enough to notice them being run over, like its rude to even ask. I'm not sure the rules are more permissive if it's an undeclared war. Or an unclaimed action by who knows who.

Our approach to war is pretty much the opposite of what terrorists think is permissible. Just look at it that way.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

247. I may disagree with you on this issue,

but I would definitely buy you a drink, as would sarisataka and all other vets here for your service to our country.

[FullySupportDems]

248. I appreciate that, right back at ya

It's easy to wade into these issues and quickly find myself out of my depth. I didn't mean to cause hard feelings or make incorrect assumptions. I'll try harder from now on. I think you're both knowlegable people.

I know there is sharp disagreement about what is right and wrong in this conflict. And I'm not backing down from disagreeing with the tactics. But you've been much closer to it irl than I have, and probably have stronger feelings. No disrespect. I would too.

Thank you for your gracious reply. It's a class act that I'm not surprised to see from a Marine, not at all. Thank you for your service as well.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

249. Thank you

and I strongly suspect that we agree with more than we disagree on other issues.

[FullySupportDems]

250. I think you're right

We probably do, and I think it's very big of you to say so. If the leaders of our world were more like you, it would be a better place. Class act.

[sarisataka]

158. Attacking an enemy's communications systems is not at all debatable,

such systems are legitimate targets.

Why are you claiming death tolls 20x greater than reported and that all of them are civilians?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

163. Great question.

Hmmm, makes one wonder just what we got here.

[Hekate]

192. The more I read this poster in this thread...

…the more I wonder myself.

[FullySupportDems]

235. Or you could simply ask

I am not sure why anyone needs to be rude. That's what I'm wondering about. Honestly it's like you do not want a real discussion. I am not being insulting.

I'm saying writing off civilians as policy anywhere in the world just because they're in the way is wrong. It's not cool or smart or a good way to operate no matter who did it, but especially if it was a government sanctioned action. That is all.

[FullySupportDems]

170. It sounds like it's okay if it's only a few civilians maybe?

Being okay with killing some who cares what number of civilians to supposedly take out some beepers, it sounds extreme. One, It wasn't necessary. Two, It was meant to kill, assassination using beepers. And Three Arguing it was just an attack on communication devices and not intentionally lethal just isn't honest. I'm sorry but it's not.

I am out of time to continue. If I see anything later that actually confronts what happened, instead of disputing any question of why it's wrong and ridiculing the very idea it should be a question, I'll get back.

[sarisataka]

173. You didn't answer my question why you are drastically inflating numbers

which has nothing to do with hypotheticals or confronting what happened. The death toll is current nine with one being an innocent victim. There are not counts as to how many injured may be civilians but Hezbollah is saying at least the majority are their members.

I will thank you to not put words in my mouth about what I said is OK. I am disputing incorrect information.

One- it wasn't necessary but is much better than sending bombs and missiles
Two- it was meant to kill Hezbollah members, i.e. terrorists
Three- claiming something that was not said. The attack did not kill hundreds of civilians, that was your claim and no it isn't honest

[Cha]

202. And so far We're Geting Crickets from your excellent

question.

TY

[FullySupportDems]

236. Sorry I missed this one

First this was an argument about attacking the legitimate target of Hizbollah communications systems. Next we have agreed it was an attack meant to injure or kill.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I certainly wasn't trying to, I'm following the logical conclusion. If we are okay with this action, then we are okay with killing civilians anywhere because terrorism. That's my problem with this.

Now I believe you are disputing how many civilians were killed and injured? It makes me want to ask, what number would you like? If the number of dead and injured civilians can be argued about, a smaller number of them might mean...what? Just a few. Opps? It's still not okay to me.

One Who said ANYTHING about bombs being an option? It's not in the discussion to bomb the beepers. Unless this is a hot war now, which I hope it's not. It wasn't necessary to kill anyone to take out the beepers, and that's my point. It was reckless risk of life, no matter how many terrorists it killed.

Two It was meant to kill terrorists and anyone unfortunate enough to be in close proximity. Like in a grocery store. No one thought blowing up all those beepers simultaneously would only hurt terrorists when they planned it.

Three Hundreds of civilian casualties were reported on the news, I'm sorry if I said hundreds of deaths incorrectly. I don't think the number makes a lot of difference though, and I was not trying to be dishonest.

[Israeli]

143. There are no Hezbollah members in America ??

Really ?

So who was flying their flags and those of Hamas at all these demonstrations ??

Welcome to DU BTW .

[FullySupportDems]

164. Are you an acceptable target if you get on a plane with one

Of those flag waving terrorists? Is everyone here just outta luck if they get too close to the protest? Because that's what it means to be okay with blowing up a bunch of pagers and killing people in close proximity

I don't see how it isn't a blank check for violence on anybody to look at it that way.

[Hekate]

195. This operation was as closely targeted as it is possible to be. And as has been pointed out...

…Communications systems are absolutely a legitimate target. Show us where that is not so in time of war. Which, by the way, this is for the Middle East.

[FullySupportDems]

237. But they are not in a declared war are they?

I might have missed it, but I didn't think they were at war. They, who is at war? Until someone claims responsibility, it's hard to say Lebanon is an acceptable target of any war, isn't it?

If we assume it's Israel, i do not agree their closely targeted operation was acceptable. And no, reckless disregard for innocent noncombatant civilians is not permissible even in war time. Valid targets and collateral damage are a fact, but even in war time it's a consideration, and intentional killings can be prosecuted.

[elias7]

240. You do realize Hezbollah has been actively attacking Israel since October 8, don't you?

Thousands of people living in northern Israel are displaced from their homes from the bombings. Just because it’s not in the news, doesn’t mean Israel isn’t being attacked on all sides. as usual.

[Hekate]

241. Three or four people in this thread don't know it & don't believe it regardless

[FullySupportDems]

242. Mischaracterizing the situation isn't helpful

After thinking about it.

So I wish I hadn't assumed the explosions were larger and killed hundreds of innocent people. I think in my mind I was conflating this action with others against Hsmmas, which do have high civilian casualties. This wasn't the same, and a lot of my statements don't seem as applicable. I'm not deliberately obtuse, I am merely occasionally obtuse, and always in public. Eyes aren't great either.

I'm still not happy with a war on terrorism like this. Kill lists and execution. It seems lawless, and I know less about law. I can see it was overwhelmingly Hezbollah who was harmed with beepers, but I still think they could have rigged them to merely disable them.

For the record I dearly hope all the attacks on and by Israel can stop and all the displaced people can go home in peace.

[Hekate]

177. Way to completely misunderstand the whole discussion

[Ace Rothstein]

107. Pro terrorist accounts all over social media melting over this.

You love to see it.

[Arne]

112. There are a couple of devices in there that explode.

They are usually close enough to a battery to cause damage.
One is a Tantalum capacitor and the other is a switching
MOSFET pair.
I've seen these go off with extreme force, and if in the
close proximity to Lithium may chain react.

Would be something very strange.

[JackSabbath]

113. How is this different than setting land mines?

Anyone in support of this can go straight to he'll.

[Coventina]

115. oh please

What a ridiculous comparison.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

117. Well then I guess most of us on this thread are going to hell because most of us support

taking out terrorists.

[FullySupportDems]

136. I wish it was as simple as killing terrorists

But it isn't the dead terrorists anyone on here is concerned with. It's the tactics and the death of innocent people I'm condemning. I think you know that.

And I have to point out that, yes, if Hezbollah sent members here, any one of us could be legitimately killed if we take the wrong bus? Ride the wrong elevator? Have the wrong discussion about it in an online forum?

I think these actions are only acceptable here because they aren't happening here. I assume.

[Hekate]

209. I wish this was as simple as not pretending to be deliberately obtuse

America, btw, has its own terrorists. Just ask the people of Springfield about JD Vance and the Proud Boys.

We are not as ignorant here at DU as you seem to think.

[FullySupportDems]

222. I don't think I'm being obtuse

Deliberately or otherwise.

Yes, we have our own terrorists here. I'm not sure how that relates to killing civilians in Lebanon by blowing up the pagers of terrorists.

I don't think you are ignorant, or DU in general. But some people have trouble discussing a legitimate dissenting opinion about this.

I'm saying, loudly, that it is not right to approve of and celebrate killing terrorists if civilians are killed as well, knowing it was expected civilians would be harmed. That's my point. I've tried hard to stick to it. I'd like people to think about how awful it would be, if it happened here. Walk down the wrong street, shop in the wrong store, and if you're too close to a terrorist your life is forfeited? Are we really okay with that kind of warfare anywhere, from any nation? It's the worse slippery slope I ever heard of.

But, so far, no one has explained how this tactic is good or legal, by whoever did it. All I hear is that I don't understand. I think it's more that I don't agree.

[BannonsLiver]

119. lol

[sarisataka]

159. How is a raven like a writing desk?

[notroot]

181. He'll what? LOL.

I'm dancing on the metaphorical graves of Hezbollah terrorists today.

It's a good day.

Really looking forward to "he'll"!

[asm128]

211. And the kid(s) that died?

People aren't even trying to hide their Islamaphobia any more, are they?

Blocking any idiots that celebrate this

[Hekate]

215. Oh goody, block us all. I will not block you, however, as I am sure your progress here will be full of incident.

We, by the way, are not Islamophobic, just capable of distinguishing between the average Muslim and rabid jihadists.

[notroot]

217. That's right... Hezbollah recently killed some children with one of the 100s of rocket attacks on Israel.

Hamas and Hezbollah are already using them as human shields. I guess that means anyone can use them to deflect blame from Hamas and their allies in promoting Islamic extremism and theocracy -- Hezbollah and Iran.

Hamas and Hezbollah can never be attacked, because they surround themselves with innocents at all times, as a deliberate, publicized strategy to inflict moral harm on their enemies when they are attacked in response for their own terrorist atrocities.

It's double-standards all the way down.

War is hell.

[Hekate]

208. How is this different from being deliberately obtuse?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

123. ......

Last edited Tue Sep 17, 2024, 04:01 PM - Edit history (1)

This is going to disrupt Hizbollah's entire Command and Control system.
Whom ever is responsible for this, kudos for a brilliant operation.

[Israeli]

151. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

it was overheating batteries

[MarineCombatEngineer]

153. All at the same time,

according to one of the posters here.

[RandySF]

126. Do you think Office Depot would accept returns?

[womanofthehills]

133. Now it's - injured thousands including doctors & nurses

And children

[sarisataka]

161. Link?

Because there are lots of posts with false information today.

Also we have seen there are doctors, nurses, teachers etc that are also active members of terrorist organizations. Their occupations have not prevented them from actively participating in crimes against Israeli civilians.

[notroot]

183. Maybe those poor "doctors" and "nurses" shouldn't be carrying TERRORIST pagers?

Just a crazy thought.

Disturbing how many knee-jerk reactions are "but the poor terrorist-adjacent [insert something pulled straight outta my ass]"!

[Hekate]

214. And kittens. Why would a pager-carrying terrorist be in a hospital unless it had already gone off?

Said terrorist would have to be transported to the ER in a wounded condition, prior to which point the pager would have already blown up — and it would not blow up a second time.

So the puppies would be safe.

[Coventina]

228. As has been proven, just because you're a doctor doesn't mean you're not a terrorist too.

What are they doing with pagers purchased by terrorists?

[Kaleva]

139. #1 reason not to hide a pager up inside your ass.

I think of these things so you don't have to .

[underpants]

148. Ouch

[Mosby]

176. According to Sky News Arabic

According to Sky News Arabic, Mossad placed 20 grams of PETN explosives into each device. PETN is sensitive to heat and friction, and Israel detonated it by raising the temperature of the battery to explode it.

Link to tweet

Israel used some sort of script to overload the battery and make it heat up. The script was activated by a pager notification.

Eta - 20 grams is about 3/4 of an ounce.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

188. Gotta hand it to whoever thought this up,

it was a brilliant op.

[Jack Valentino]

193. I didn't even know that you could still buy pagers anymore---

and where you gonna find a pay phone to call someone back?? LOL

[Calculating]

197. This one seems a little morally sus

I'm not pro Palestine or anything, but this was downright dirty and indiscriminate. Rigging consumer electronics with bombs and then just blowing them all with no idea how many civilians will get hurt? What if these terrorists were out in public, with kids, on a plane, etc?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

198. Then they shouldn't have been terrorists.

Easy peasy.
Hizbollah brought this upon themselves, and just what war wasn't downright dirty and indiscriminate?

[Coventina]

227. Pagers should be turned off in flight. These pagers were purchased by the terrorists themselves.

So if they had them around their kids, well, that's on them.

[sarisataka]

200. Have you considered other countries may use pay phones more than the US?

Also does the recipient of a message have to call anyone. A fairly simply numeric code system can relay instructions to a person with a pager, no two-way communication needed.

[Jack Valentino]

201. So noted.

[Bad Thoughts]

234. Ironically, pagers are a Jewish invention

A sincere boycott would have prevent the greatest dick move in history.

[Tarc]

225. Quite ingenious. I fully support Israel's aim to combat terrorism.

Good job!