Israeli strikes in Lebanon are war crimes and the West is complicit

[malaise]

That is all

[LexVegas]

1. A key freedom fighter was killed. Thats gotta sting. nt

[betsuni]

73. Indeed. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Ask Mandela. Anyone who challenges

Western interests is a terrorist."

[Dorian Gray]

81. Do the people who consider Hezbollah to be resistance

care a whit about the opinion of people in the Middle East? Because they are NOT a popular group. There are plenty of people in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan who despise them and the pain they've caused.

[betsuni]

114. No, they don't care about the opinions of people in the Middle East, or experts with many decades of experience.

They believe they're right with 100% stubborn moral conviction, facts and reality and history be damned. It's a purity test. Oh, the passion.

Rule: Everyone knows my opinion is the only moral and right position, it's obvious. Therefore, anyone who disagrees is not only wrong but immoral and evil.

Why the inevitable personal attacks and hate. If someone doesn't agree that Israel is doing war crimes, genocide, apartheid, white colonialism, responsible for all the bad things -- they must want innocent civilians, especially children, murdered, asked repeatedly about their personal opinion, "What do YOU think"? You monsters!

This was usual during the Obama administration. If some lie about him droning a wedding party to kill innocent children was debunked as a regular NATO anti-terrorist activity, you got something personal about not minding murdered children. Same anti-West pro-Russia thing. Now it's gone way over to the dark side where religious fundamentalist vicious terrorists are the freedom fighters. Have to follow the purity test rules, though. No thinking for yourself!

[Maru Kitteh]

121. +∞

💯

[Dorian Gray]

127. It's sad but you're right

I think nuance is lost. People want to see the Israel as Western colonialists (ie BAD) and Hamas/Hezbollah as legitimate third world revolutionaries who fight the oppression of the fascist state of "Western" Israel.

Never mind that Israel/Palestine/Lebanon all share borders. Never mind that the history of Hezbollah and Hamas is violent (against Israel, against US marines, against their own people). Never mind that any group whose driving mission is the eradication of another group (and not elevating their own people) is problematic.

Israel is not perfect, and I think questioning the morality of some of their responses here is fine. But, doing so without questioning the morality of the attacks against the Israelis is living with blinders on.

[Cha]

79. Fucking Terrorists that Killed INNOCENT Americans... Who the fuck would

Champion that?!

[RJ_MacReady]

2. no they aren't

I don't support Netanyahu and I feel Israel shares a big part of thr blame for this mess but they do have a right to defend themselves and take the fight to terrorists. It's pretty disgusting defending Hezbollah.

[democratsruletheday]

123. Couldn't agree more RJ....

luckily Joe and KH can juggle knives well. It's a careful balancing act that DonOLD tDipshit would fail miserably. He needs a drool cup these days so I'm sure everyone would be comfy with his middle east policy. Fucking brutal to ponder.

[JustAnotherGen]

3. October 8, 2023 - Hezbollah

Fired missiles at Shebaa farms. Its rolling over territory dispute from 2000. Israel - that same day (10/8/2023) fired back with drones.

Lebanon (Hezbollah has been in charge by veto power since 2022) took advantage of the horror of October 7th to throw its balls around.

Note - Shebaa is Sunni and Hezbollah is Shia. WHY would Hezbollah do that? Hmm . . .

I really hope the people of Lebanon rise up and bring Hezbollah to heel. They are savages. No tears from me for Nasrallah's death.

There was no need for them to stand in solidarity with Gaza - on October 8, 2023.

Unless? Unless they were okay with raping women and killing them in the middle of the attack? Hmm . . .

[LeftInTX]

28. Wow! They got Nasrallah? (Ayatollah wanna be)

I didn't see it in breaking news.

Sure enough. He's gone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Nasrallah

(I knew they got Hezbollah HQ, but didn't know Nasrallah was there)

[MarineCombatEngineer]

31. In the wrong place at the right time.

Sucks to be Nasrallah.

[JustAnotherGen]

32. Yep and

There are human beings in Lebanon who are happy he's gone.

Day 1 - the media will focus on the sobbers.

Day 10 - We will see the people Lebanon who know precisely what Nasrallah was stand up.

God speed to them as they fight for a representative Government.

[LeftInTX]

36. Yes, there are still many Armenians living in Lebanon. I hope things turn around.

OTOH, there has been corruption with their mainstream government. The corruption is so bad that it has impacted the economy, so it's more worse than run-of-the-mill corruption.

[soandso]

64. I saw a Youtube yesterday

from an either Arab or Iranian guy in the UK, confirming Nasrallah was dead but I really didn't believe it or that he could know that. Guess I'm gonna have to go back and start listening to that channel because that would have been insider info he had.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

4. And yet you never say anything about Hizbollah, you know, "freedom fighters" constantly

lobbing rockets and missiles into Israel.
Your words ring very hollow.

[LexVegas]

5. This OP was a salty respnse to the leader of Hezbollah being killed. nt

[JohnSJ]

9. The silence by some against groups that have constantly called for the elimination of Israel speaks volumes.

[Igel]

21. I like to think of myself as a "bigotry fighter."

I like to fight against bigotry.

Makes you realize "freedom fighter" is a bit ambiguous of an expression. One can be a freedom fighter fighting for or against freedom, an oppression fighter fighting for or against oppression. I guess. I'd say it varies by context.

Sort of makes the phrase into a "ravel word", where to "ravel" also means "to unravel." Like "dust": "I dusted the furniture" is rather different from (and sort of opposite in meaning to) "I dusted the crops". Against, context is crucial and sometimes crucifying. (It's not a new insight; even the old B&W "Adams Family" used it as a pun in one scene.)

[Dorian Gray]

82. Exactly

[madaboutharry]

6. Calling this a war crime is an outrageous offense against all that is decent in the world.

Hezbollah is a genocidal terrorist organization committed to Jihad. It is committed to the destruction of Israel and to the death of every Jew on earth.

It is a very good thing that Nasrallah is now dead.

Striking against Hezbollah and eliminating the evil monster at the head of this murderous Jihadist terror organization is not a war crime. It is the opposite. It is a blessing for humanity.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. A blessing for humanity

Last edited Sat Sep 28, 2024, 11:00 AM - Edit history (1)

For the record - I won't be crying when 45 drops dead either . . . because that would also be a blessing to humanity.

The experts always focus on how retaliation gives birth to new bad actors/terrorists.

They never focus on the people who were the victims of the bad actors/terrorists. And what the bad actors/terrorists do to make their victims radical in return.

Hezbollah could have minded their own god damn business October 8, 2023. But they didn't.

And here we are.

As an American who is facing an authoritarian dictatorship if we fail this November? They are being terribly selfish (Lebanon).

As the Zia and Great Zia of nephews in Italy who are of age to go to war - I'm fucking pissed that Hezbollah took attention away from Ukraine -

Where good and evil have clearly defined boundaries - unless one is MAGA.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

41. Oh, but you know,

FREEDOM FIGHTERS!!!

[claudette]

103. Except

Knowingly killing innocents isn’t right

[sarisataka]

105. Maybe someday

The "pro-Palestinian" groups will say this when Jews are murdered.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

106. The head of Hezbollah is innocent?

Interesting take....

[AloeVera]

138. The dozens of civilians living in those 6 apartment blocks, now dead. .

Oh right. Collateral damage.

They are not important.

[Beastly Boy]

142. Dozens? How did you get to dozens?

Lebanon health ministry reported 30 dead in Nasrallah's strike. IDF reports that over 25 of them were Hezbollah terrorists and their commanders.

A reminder, since you need it: Hezbollah terrorists are no civilians. And no, they are not important. Not since the raid on their bunker. Under a civilian apartment building. In a civilian neighborhood.

[Beastly Boy]

8. Many thanks to the West

for being complicit in the elimination of world's Number One terrorist!

And congratulations for doing the right thing.

[JustAnotherGen]

10. Bravo BB!

Well said.

[Igel]

23. I thought the US wasn't providing intel on Lebanon.

Maybe the British were?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

24. Could be British, could be France, hell, it could even be Russia to further their aims

in the ME.
There's no love lost there, especially with Britian and France.

[Beastly Boy]

29. I thought so too.

But the categorical tone of the OP created doubts in my mind.

OK, so I took the OP for granted without giving it a second thought. Now that you mentioned the subject, I think that it is more likely that the Lebanese opposition, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and/or Egypt provided that intel.

I guess I should extend my thanks and congratulations to them too, just to cover all bases...

[moniss]

40. Likely the US is feeding it to the British

who then feed it to the IDF. That way the statement that we are not supplying intel to the IDF can be weasel reasoned to be true.

[zorbasd]

93. Maybe it was more simple,

some people in Lebanon could have given intelligence.
Many Lebanese cannot stand what Hezbollah has done to their country, like taking over it as a foreign entity, getting stronger than the Lebanese armed forces. Perhaps Israel has helped Lebanon liberate itself of that scourge.

[EX500rider]

135. Yeah I bet Mossad has more eyes & ears in Lebanon then any Western power

[Tarc]

11. They aren't, and we aren't

That is all.

[JohnSJ]

12. Perhaps now the regular Lebanese government can get a handle on the situation and enforce the agreement to demilitarize

Lebanon's South and eliminate any possible ground invasion.

Sadly though, there is no Lebanese government. since Iran has colonized Lebanon with its proxies for its own purposes.

It should be noted that Hezbolah was responsible for the evacuation of some 60 thousand Israelis from Northern Israel due to is constant firing of its missile.

[JustAnotherGen]

34. And many of those

Were Arab Israelis who practiced Islam and Christianity.

Hezbollah exists for Jihad. That is its only purpose.

[LeftInTX]

42. There is a Lebanese govt. It's currently got alot of corruption issues however.

The corruption is not due to Hezbollah. It has to do with greed of their prime ministers who are involved in these business scandals. Trumpy types, who occur in succession. (Lebanese business owners) The economy is in bad shape. It's like Lebanon has these "parallel govts". The govt is also "paralyzed" and "gridlocked" by their constitution. (That's a different story)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najib_Mikati#:~:text=Najib%20Azmi%20Mikati%20(Arabic%3A%20%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%8A%D8%A8,of%20Lebanon%20since%20September%202021.

According to Forbes, he is the richest man in Lebanon, with a net worth of $2.8 billion in 2023.[4] In 2019, state prosecutor Ghada Aoun accused Mikati of corruption and pressed charges of illegitimate enrichment via subsidised housing loans against him.[5][6][7] The charges were dismissed on 3 February 2022 by judge Charbel Bou Samra.[8] In 2023, an investigation in Monaco cleared him of any wrongdoing due to "insufficient evidence,"[9] and he has said that the accusations against him were politically motivated.[10] Mikati has been linked to Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, as he made his fortune by operating several telecom projects in Syria and Lebanon in the early 2000s.[11][12]

[rollin74]

13. I disagree

Israel has been under constant attack from across the Lebanese border by Iranian-backed terrorists.

Are they supposed to just ignore it?

How can they be blamed for targeting the leadership and weapons storage locations of those attacking them?

[Sympthsical]

14. I hope the West is complicit

Hezbollah going down is a great thing. And Israel has managed it beautifully.

I know anti-Westerners are having a sad. Power through it.

And we never hear about freedom fighters when it comes to the Lebanese being held hostage by terror masters. What about their freedom? Or is it only freedom when anti-Western fundamentalists who aspire to a genocidal authoritarian theocracy are involved?

When people are literally rooting for medieval nutjobs holding a country hostage because "The West, you guys" it's time for a re-examination. It ain't liberal. It ain't progressive. It's certainly not Democratic.

And it's always extremely comfortable and privileged Westerners who want to consign others to live under these medieval regimes in the name of, uh, anti-oppression.

L.O.L.

[Mossfern]

58. Excellent

Well said

[Ace Rothstein]

15. Fuck Hezbollah and their supporters.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

17. Dont'cha all just love these hit and run threads?

[Oopsie Daisy]

19. Indeed. But, it's pellucidly clear that this thread turned out exactly as it was intended.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

20. Yep, throw wild accusations but refuse to answer any push back.

Hmm, who does that sound like?

[DeepWinter]

18. Here's to Israel

eliminating more terrorists. Thousands yet to go.

[sarisataka]

22. Is there anything in particular about these strikes

That makes them criminal?

Or are all strikes on terrorists Freedom Fighters war crimes?

[ArkansasDemocrat1]

50. If you win, you're a freedom fighter

[maxsolomon]

25. Oh, Malaise.

That is all.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

26. Hey, Malaise,

I love ya, I really do, we agree on most everything, but when you post such nonsense and then refuse to engage with those that disagree with you, leads a reasonable person to believe that this is nothing more than click bait designed to start crap, then you lose all credibility, IMHO.

[RandiFan1290]

27. You're probably on ignore

deservedly

[MarineCombatEngineer]

30. Then that would mean that everyone else here is on ignore.

And, BTW, you can put me on ignore also, although I don't because I have the guts to respond to those I disagree with instead of running away.
I don't believe that Malaise has me on ignore, my posts have been answered by him/her numerous times.

[Beastly Boy]

33. There are fourteen unique responders to the OP. Are they all deservedly on ignore?

[RandiFan1290]

35. After years of personal attacks?

I would

[MarineCombatEngineer]

37. So now, according to you, push back is now personal attacks?

Ridiculous.

[Beastly Boy]

38. Years of personal attacks... I wonder how all of the 14 unique responders to the OP managed to so consistently violate

the DU terms of use for so long.

[Oopsie Daisy]

39. Wow, that IS an interesting observation and question... isn't it?

How, indeed?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

43. Great question,

one which I highly doubt you'll get a coherent answer to.

[Beastly Boy]

44. That makes two of us, incoherent answers notwithstanding.

[emulatorloo]

117. Disagreements on definitions are not "personal attacks."

[Bernardo de La Paz]

57. It looks like a Post-and-Run, but that is not malaise' usual behaviour. Maybe something came up needed attending to. .nt

[malaise]

70. I never run

I maintain my position

[Polybius]

45. I don't think that you two "agree on most everything"

Malaise is way further Left than you. I've even seen some pro-Venezuela posts from her.

[Polybius]

47. I don't know why you responded like that

I was defending you. I think your posts are extremely reasonable, even when we disagree.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

48. Oops, my bad, I mis-read your post.

I'll delete my unwarranted post and offer my sincere apology.

[Polybius]

49. No need to apologize or delete!

I should have worded it better, my bad!

[malaise]

85. We agree to disagree on this one

[LetMyPeopleVote]

52. Statement from President Joe Biden on the Death of Hassan Nasrallah

Link to tweet

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/09/28/statement-from-president-joe-biden-on-the-death-of-hassan-nasrallah/

September 28, 2024
Statement from President Joe Biden on the Death of Hassan Nasrallah
Home
Briefing Room
Statements and Releases
Hassan Nasrallah and the terrorist group he led, Hezbollah, were responsible for killing hundreds of Americans over a four-decade reign of terror. His death from an Israeli airstrike is a measure of justice for his many victims, including thousands of Americans, Israelis, and Lebanese civilians.

The strike that killed Nasrallah took place in the broader context of the conflict that began with Hamas’s massacre on October 7, 2023. Nasrallah, the next day, made the fateful decision to join hands with Hamas and open what he called a “northern front” against Israel.

The United States fully supports Israel’s right to defend itself against Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, and any other Iranian-supported terrorist groups. Just yesterday, I directed my Secretary of Defense to further enhance the defense posture of U.S. military forces in the Middle East region to deter aggression and reduce the risk of a broader regional war.

Ultimately, our aim is to de-escalate the ongoing conflicts in both Gaza and Lebanon through diplomatic means. In Gaza, we have been pursuing a deal backed by the UN Security Council for a ceasefire and the release of hostages. In Lebanon, we have been negotiating a deal that would return people safely to their homes in Israel and southern Lebanon. It is time for these deals to close, for the threats to Israel to be removed, and for the broader Middle East region to gain greater stability.

###

[MarineCombatEngineer]

55. Very well said, Pres. Biden is wholly supporting Israels operation to remove one of the worlds most

insidious terrorists, something, and I suspect, most of Americans and the western nations agree with.
Rest in piss Nasrallah.

[rso]

54. RSO

Stop parroting Russian talking points, they came out in strong support of Hezbollah as well.

[LeftInTX]

56. Lebanon is already sort of a western country.

Originally founded as an Arab Christian majority nation, it's population is now 60% Muslim. Lebanon's prime minister is a billionaire business owner. However, Lebanon has a long history of businessmen controlling the country. Hezbollah assassinated Lebanon's prime minister in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafic_Hariri
Hariri headed five cabinets during his tenure. He was widely credited for his role in constructing the Taif Agreement that ended the 15-year Lebanese Civil War. He also played a huge role in reconstructing the Lebanese capital, Beirut. He was the first post-civil war prime minister and the most influential and wealthiest Lebanese politician until his assassination.

During Hariri's first term as prime minister, tensions between Israel and Lebanon increased, as a result of Qana massacre. In 2000, when he became prime minister for second time, the biggest achievement during his time as prime minister was the Israeli withdrawal from Southern Lebanon, ending an 18-year old occupation. Meanwhile relations with Syrian President Bashar increased.

Hariri was assassinated on 14 February 2005 by a suicide truck bomb in Beirut. Four Hezbollah members were indicted for the assassination and are being tried in absentia by the Special Tribunal for Lebanon, but others have linked the assassination to the Syrian government. The outcome of a 15-year investigation led to the guilty verdict of multiple people in Hezbollah's party taking part; however, the only one left alive would be Salim Ayyash, a well-connected, mid-level operative in Hezbollah.[1] The assassination was a catalyst for dramatic political change in Lebanon. The massive protests of the Cedar Revolution helped achieve the withdrawal of Syrian troops and security forces from Lebanon and a change in government.

At one point, Hariri was one of the world's 100 wealthiest men[2] and the fourth-richest politician.[3]During Hariri's first term as prime minister, tensions between Israel and Lebanon increased, as a result of Qana massacre. In 2000, when he became prime minister for second time, the biggest achievement during his time as prime minister was the Israeli withdrawal from Southern Lebanon, ending an 18-year old occupation. Meanwhile relations with Syrian President Bashar increased.

Hariri was assassinated on 14 February 2005 by a suicide truck bomb in Beirut. Four Hezbollah members were indicted for the assassination and are being tried in absentia by the Special Tribunal for Lebanon, but others have linked the assassination to the Syrian government. The outcome of a 15-year investigation led to the guilty verdict of multiple people in Hezbollah's party taking part; however, the only one left alive would be Salim Ayyash, a well-connected, mid-level operative in Hezbollah.[1] The assassination was a catalyst for dramatic political change in Lebanon. The massive protests of the Cedar Revolution helped achieve the withdrawal of Syrian troops and security forces from Lebanon and a change in government.

At one point, Hariri was one of the world's 100 wealthiest men[2] and the fourth-richest politician.[3]

Lebanon and Israel aren't friends, but it isn't some western attack thing. Yes, the top guys in Lebanon will complain because it is a violation of their sovereignty, (chest thumping...yada yada yada) but inside I'm sure they're relieved that Nasrallah is gone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Lebanon_relations
Israel–Lebanon relations have experienced ups and downs since their establishment in the 1940s

________

Israel does not intend to destroy Lebanon. Lebanon does not intend to destroy Israel. Both countries know this.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

59. Statement by Vice President Harris on the Death of Hassan Nasrallah

Link to tweet

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/09/28/statement-by-vice-president-harris-on-the-death-of-hassan-nasrallah/

September 28, 2024
Statement by Vice President Harris on the Death of Hassan Nasrallah
Home
Briefing Room
Statements and Releases
Hassan Nasrallah was a terrorist with American blood on his hands. Across decades, his leadership of Hezbollah destabilized the Middle East and led to the killing of countless innocent people in Lebanon, Israel, Syria, and around the world. Today, Hezbollah’s victims have a measure of justice.

I have an unwavering commitment to the security of Israel. I will always support Israel’s right to defend itself against Iran and Iran-backed terrorist groups such as Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Houthis.

President Biden and I do not want to see conflict in the Middle East escalate into a broader regional war. We have been working on a diplomatic solution along the Israel-Lebanon border so that people can safely return home on both sides of that border. Diplomacy remains the best path forward to protect civilians and achieve lasting stability in the region.

# # #

[Happy Hoosier]

60. Bullshit

That is all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. Hezbollah was responsible for killing 237 Marines in their sleep in 1983.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

63. Yep, and many of those Marines were close personal friends of mine.

Nasrallah and his terrorist cohorts can rest in piss for eternity.
Excellent, excellent job Israel, taking the putrid trash to the curb for disposal.

[moniss]

62. It is foolish to think that this will deter the group and bring

peace and security just like it was always foolish to think that for coming close to a century now. Kill the leaders and another takes his place in short order. Maybe if the UN stopped playing this weasel word game about Shebaa Farms and actually require the IDF to withdraw it might take away that excuse of Hezbollah. The Occupied Territory hardly anybody talks about.

The supposed "dispute" at the UN of whether that little area of land, about 6 miles by 1.5 Miles is part of Lebanon or Syria, and whether it falls under the requirement of Security Council Resolution 1701 for full withdrawal is weasel behavior at the UN at it's finest. Oh yes supposedly the problem is the ancient maps didn't have the lines showing it. But the UN brushes away the land deeds of the people who lived there with Lebanese stamped property deeds and receipts for taxes paid to Lebanon.

The "argument" on the other side is that it is Syrian because back in the '60's etc. that frontier area on the border of Lebanon and Syria had Syrian troops. So Israel took it as well as the separate area of the Golan Heights. IDF is still there. The UN claims that nothing can be done until Syria and Lebanon demarcate the actual border. The problem is that under international law demarcation discrepancies between countries are supposed to a 2 step process. First a notification is given to the UN. The second step is that engineers/surveyors are supposed to investigate the area and develop proposed border lines. Assad, right for one time in his life, has pointed out that is not possible to have the Lebanese and Syrian personnel do Step 2 because the IDF is occupying the area in question. It would be insane to think that if Syrian and Lebanese personnel showed up in jeeps and even got within a kilometer that the IDF wouldn't open fire. Notification ahead of time doesn't work too well either as we've seen in Gaza. Assurances by the UN as always are toothless and useless.

If Israel withdrew from Shebaa Farms would it end the cross border crap from going on? Maybe not but it would certainly remove a ready excuse by one side. SC Resolution 1701 has never been lived up to by any of the parties and despite playing semantic games about certified "withdrawal" the UN keeps going with this silly charade of playing like Shebaa Farms is somehow unfathomable. When the Israeli government talks about all of the missiles launched over the border why doesn't the UN have at least the ghost of a spine to say well what about all of the violations of 1701 going the other way? I guess that last question contains the answer.

It is a massive mess but the Western media plays this like it's just a straight up situation of Hezbollah lobbing rockets and Israel responding. That is simplistic and stupid reporting. The problems here are decades and decades deep and for instance involve Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, radical right wing elements with influence in Israel who have a stated desire for the Lebanese territory from the Litani River on down to the Israeli/Lebanon border, the inability of the Lebanese government to gain enough strength after it's own internal battles and invasion by outside forces of other countries turning Lebanon into a proxy battleground for everybody etc.

We have a media that is too shallow in thought to ever ask the plain question "Why does this keep going on?" If they bothered to ask they would find that an inconvenient part of the answer is that even when the killing hits a lull the problems aren't being corrected. The rise of new leaders and the recurring violence is as predictable as the sun rising in the East. When you keep using the same ingredients that make a chocolate cake why would anybody think it will be a lemon cake the next time? So the media defaults to just looking at things in a simplistic "of the moment" fashion. To a degree some of the media are employing the old game of "don't go finding problems because then somebody will have to try and do something about them". Like the old "keep your head down" and don't say anything routine.

Of course the UN has come out and expressed for the millionth time that it is "deeply concerned" and will certainly be in the lead for this year's Susan Collins Award.

[Beringia]

100. Such knowledge, impressive

[leftstreet]

65. DuRec

[Cha]

66. Oh Boo HOO... That's Not "all".. Not by a Long Shot.

You're Wrong. That's All.

Pres Biden and VP Harris are Dead On..

Vice President Kamala Harris: "Hassan Nasrallah was a terrorist with American blood on his hands."

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[JustAnotherGen]

68. Boom!

[Cha]

69. Aloha, Gen

[betsuni]

67. Magic insult words: war crimes, teh West, complicit.

[Jose Garcia]

71. According to President Biden, it is a "measure of justice'

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/hassan-nasrallah-hezbollah-killed-biden-statement/

[AloeVera]

72. Not at all, Malaise. It's perfectly fine when Israel does it.

Or the U.S.

Such is the world we live in. It's not the world the majority of people on earth deserve.

But we both know the reaction if this happened to one of the priviledged nations.

85 bunker buster bombs dropped without warning on a crowded civilian city block - 6 apartment buildings - to kill one man? Each weighing 2000 to 4000 lbs and prohibited for such use by Geneva. The enormity of the crime incinerated by fire and buried under rubble. Panic and terror sown amongst millions. The beginning of normalization of such barbaric actions, as we saw in Gaza, now laid to waste.

Methinks the killing of Nesrallah was just the icing on the cake.

[EX500rider]

75. Where did you read they dropped 85 bunker busters?

[NickB79]

78. Maybe the secondary explosions had the force of 85 bunker busters?

Ya know, the literal TONS of Hezbollah munitions cooking off after the initial strike set them ablaze. The munitions Hezbollah uses for the thousands of rockets they've launched at Israel.

The TONS of munitions which Hezbollah had no problem storing in a residential neighborhood.

[AloeVera]

86. Per New York Times:

Two senior Israeli defense officials told The Times that more than 80 bombs were dropped over a period of several minutes to kill Mr. Nasrallah, but did not confirm the type of munitions used.

--Snip--

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/28/world/middleeast/israel-nasrallah-bunker-buster-bombs.html

According to the experts quoted in the NYT, video of the fighter jets used -released by the IDF- showed they were 2000 lb JDAM bunker busters carried on 15 fighter jets.

The same munitions the U.S. withheld for fear of them being used in urban areas.

These residential buildings were at least 7-stories high. Let that sink in.

War crime.

[EX500rider]

87. A building which is the headquarters of Hezollah undoubly is not a war crime to destroy

[Beastly Boy]

91. Since when is 15 fighter jets carrying 2000 lb JDAM bunker busters is a war crime?

Last edited Sun Sep 29, 2024, 04:11 PM - Edit history (1)

As per your source, same day, different article, citing Lebanon's health authority:

Death toll: Lebanon’s health ministry said on Saturday that at least 11 people had been killed and more than 100 injured, but the toll was expected to rise as emergency workers searched the rubble amid new Israeli air attacks.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/world/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-hamas#despair-celebration-and-shock-followed-the-news-of-nasrallahs-death-in-beirut

As per IDF the following day:

Alongside Nasrallah, four Hezbollah commanders killed in Dahieh strike
Over 20 additional terrorists were also killed in the strike that eliminated Nasrallah in Beirut, the IDF stated.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-822377

So far, IDF identified at least 25 terrorists and their commanders killed in the operation. All legitimate military targets. That's 14 more than the number of total deaths identified by Lebanon's health authority.

Lebanon's health authority has yet to identify an additional 14 terrorists before it can claim any civilian deaths.

Let that sink in before you post embarrassingly frivolous conclusions.

[EX500rider]

129. Having read more about it I see why they used a large number of bombs

They wanted to drop the 4 buildings that comprised Hezbollah HQ in their own footprint like a controlled demolition would which would minimize damage to surrounding buildings, so they hit the 4 corners of the buildings at 4 or 5 different levels simultaneously, that equals 60 to 80 bombs and a incredible feat of timing and airmanship IMO which few Air Forces could pull off.

Blowing up the enemies HQ is not a "war crime" btw but SOP for all militaries.

Per the US Naval Institute:

According to the New York Times, the targets appear to have been four high-rise buildings within a city block. These buildings are in close proximity to many others, which presumably are not Hezbollah facilities. Precise weaponeering—planning the correct number and type of weapons for a given target—must have preceded the strike and would have relied on as much detail about the target buildings’ structure as possible. Given Israel’s successful infiltration of Hezbollah’s communications and knowledge of Nasrallah’s whereabouts, it is easy to imagine Israeli intelligence collecting details on the buildings’ construction, which would be needed to plan the strike.

That this process called for a payload of up to 20 weapons per building seems surprising at first glance. But consider the following weaponeering scenario: Setting a salvo of bombs to different fuze delays would allow multiple weapons to penetrate a target building simultaneously, with each bomb detonating at different times on different floors. Imagine four bombs dropped into a high rise, one set to detonate in the top quarter, one halfway down, one near the ground floor, and the last in the basement or sub-basement, then multiply those times four—one for each corner of the building. Then repeat for four buildings. A rough calculation puts that strike at 64 weapons. Adding a similar setup in the buildings’ centers or including spare weapons as backups for malfunctions would yield an 80-bomb payload, spread across multiple F-15Is. This is a complex problem requiring precise coordinates, timing, and weapon setup, but it would certainly be possible for an air force of the IAF’s caliber.

[AloeVera]

130. Thanks for the info.

Interesting from a military perspective. It's not surprising to me Israel has such capabilities. It is a formidable military power after all. Dwarves all others in the ME. Just stating the obvious, but bears repeating for those who claim Israel faces an existential threat.

But I am more interested in the moral and ethical perspective. In the context of IHL. So another scenario for you:

The IDF has its headquarters in Tel Aviv. Surrounded by civilian structures.

Let's say Hezbollah had the capabilities- which they don't seem to - to strike the IDF headquarters but because they don't have Israel's military prowess, could only do it by also taking out at least 6 surrounding civilian apartment blocks and killing a bunch of civilians.

Or let's say Iran did that in retaliation.

Would you say that was standard military SOP as well? You would understand why they HAD to do it, right?

For me, I don't think that would be right or justified either. How about you?

[EX500rider]

134. I think military HQ's will always be at the top of the target list...

....be nice if Hamas & Hezbollah & Iran & the Houthi actually tried to hit some instead of towns & cities.

Whether or not it is SOP regardless of civilians structures will depend on individual countries rules of engagement & their threshold for collateral damage.
Israel tried to spare the surrounding buildings, their adversaries actively try and hit civilians targets.

[AloeVera]

137. Have you frigging SEEN Gaza???

I will never believe Israel tries to spare civilians.

Their adversaries try to hit civilian targets? Um no. They hit mostly empty fields near military targets. Their rockets are imprecise. They don't have a $35B military.

16 people were killed in Israel by rockets or debris from intercepted rockets. I am not sure if that includes the 12 Syrian-Arab children killed by what was surely a misfire or accident. Would be extremely stupid to kill fellow Arab children on purpose. On occupied Syrian territory, no less.

Over ten times as many Lebanese civilians were killed by Israeli airstrikes - all prior to the recent direct strikes on Beirut and other parts. Now you can add hundreds if not thousands more.

It's always been unequal, lopsided with much greater civilian suffering on one side.

[EX500rider]

140. Have I seen gaza?

Yes, it looks like any modern urban combat has looked for the last almost 100 years, especially fighting an un-uniformed opponent who hides among civilians.

Yes, I'm sure all those rockets that Hamas and Hezbollah fires were aimed at military targets said no one ever

[AloeVera]

141. Bye.

The denial in you is strong.

Good luck.

[EX500rider]

143. Ditto

[EX500rider]

144. If you say

Would you like me to post some pics of what urban combat has done to cities in the last 100 years?
Feel free to explain how Gaza is somehow different.

WWII Berlin:


Stalingrad:


Korean War:


Vietnam, Hue:


Grozny, Chechen capital


Fallujah, Iraq:


Mosul, Iraq


Etc

[LexVegas]

149. Many of the sheltered and privileged think that warfare was invented a year ago. nt

[EX500rider]

153. It's like zero knowledge of the recent history of warfare, includ. combatants to civilian kill ratios

And it's not hard to look up and for a almost purely urban fight against a mostly non-uniformed opponent who hides amoung civilians the IDF is doing better then the US avg

[LexVegas]

155. My mom was born in Korea right before the war. 2 to 4 million civilian casualties. nt

[Beastly Boy]

77. Did you say bunker busting bombs? Nasrallah? Civilian city block?

Last edited Sun Sep 29, 2024, 09:23 AM - Edit history (1)

Are you insinuating that Nasrallah, the warlord of the largest by far rogue military force in Lebanon, was hiding in a bunker deep under a civilian city block? You don't say!

WTF was the world's most notorious terrorist doing in a bunker under a civilian city block all by himself? Oh wait, he had some notorious company there, didn't he? You did know he was meeting with a whole bunch of senior Hezbollah officers there to plot further military actions against Israeli civilians, didn't you? No? I find it hard to believe. Just as I find it hard to believe that you didn't know that present at this meeting were at least one of Nasrallah's deputies and an Iranian general, as well as an unknown number of other Hezbollah commanders. Or that you didn't know that the precisely targeted strike took place in the afternoon, at the time the streets of Beirut are least crowded. Or that the enormity of Israel's success in this operation is being universally applauded rather than being buried under rubble or incinerated by fire.

What I don't find hard to believe is that you know jack about Geneva Conventions. And neither does your ignorant source which you do not wish to cite (but I looked it up anyway). I bet that without my help you wouldn't even be able to identify the parts of the Geneva Conventions that address bunker busting bombs. The reason I know this is because the Geneva Convention (or, more accurately, its additional Protocol III of 1980) in question specifically exempts bunker busting bombs from the munitions being prohibited by it.

As far as panic and terror, I would speculate that both subsided significantly around the world on the news that the world's most notorious terrorist is now in paradise pushing up virgins (the reference is to several verses in the Koran, but I suspect you know this too). In any event, my speculation is as good as yours.

And the beginning of normalization of barbaric actions started a long time ago, by various Hamas and Hezbollah apologists, so your standing in bringing the subject up is rather dubious.

On edit: Lebanon health ministry reported 30 dead in Nasrallah's strike. IDF reports that over 25 of them were Hezbollah terrorists and their commanders (https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-822377). A remarkable discretion in a strike with "85 bunker buster bombs [4000 lbs each] dropped without warning on a crowded civilian city block", no?

[Oopsie Daisy]

119. It's enjoyable to see someone who knows much, school someone who knows nothing *

* about the topic at hand. I enjoy seeing alternative made-up "facts" and "stats" being shot down with genuine facts and stats. Do I smell smoke? Call the fire department because it looks like someone just got burned.

[AloeVera]

147. See post #145.

Hope you enjoyed your guffaws. Lol.

[AloeVera]

145. Another one? You knew you were on ignore.

And I wouldn't have a chance to refute your claims. Ugh

One lie to easily refute: The attack happened during the evening, per WAPO. Other sources indicate "as the sun was setting".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/27/israel-strike-hasan-nasrallah-beirut/

You make up your own facts?

The others? Not bothering.

[Beastly Boy]

146. I knew that you had me on ignore. I didn't know that you would change your mind so quickly.

And it is kind of self evident that your choice rendered your ability to respond to the ignored posts out of reach. Duh. One doesn't usually ignore someone in order to have a shot at refuting anything.

What I find hilarious is your idea of refuting, of all the things in my post, the time of day the attack took place. If the sun isn't setting in the afternoon, when does it set? At dusk? At night? In the morning? At noon? Note the etymology of the word "afternoon" before you make up your mind. It contains the word "noon", which is the time the sun begins to set. Or so I am told.

Turns out that the "lie" of your choice is not as easy to refute as you imagined. Which makes me wonder: what in the world made you call it a lie in the first place?

[AloeVera]

150. So instead of admitting you were wrong to claim the attack took place...

...in the afternoon, as you falsely claimed, you are now arguing that what WAPO meant by "evening" could well have meant the afternoon.

BeastlyBoy logic.


Sacrificing the last vestiges of your credibility for the sake of your argument and to avoid having to admit your "mistake" to put it kindly.

[ForgedCrank]

74. Yea, it

really is a damned shame that they finally started properly fighting back instead of just dabbling around.

[lees1975]

76. The war crimes are being committed by terrorists embedding themselves among the civilian populations of Lebanon and Gaza

in the first place.

[malaise]

83. The terrorists are the powerful goverments

and their armies and weapons providers.

Mia Mottley speaks for me. Notice all the countries that walked out during the war criminal’s speech

[Beastly Boy]

84. Name the countries that walked out. How many of them are complicit in

in promoting death, violence and instability Mia Mottley is talking about?

That was a brilliant illustration of the bigotry and duplicity of the UN member states that consistently and conspicuously display bigotry against Israel.

I am tempted to follow the example of someone who speaks for you and throw the New Testament back at you:
"Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" - Matthew, 7:3

[DiamondShark]

90. Sup dude.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1155046

[Beastly Boy]

92. And? What's your point?

You are responding to a specific post, remember? Be specific.

[DiamondShark]

97. Check out her full speech. n/t

[Beastly Boy]

98. Anything specific in this 35 minute speech that relates to my post?

If there is, it is customary to cite it when you refer to something specific like a short post in a long thread.

[DiamondShark]

99. It's a good speech...

You should check it out. It might answer your question posted to malaise.

https://gadebate.un.org/sites/default/files/gastatements/79/bb_en.pdf

[Beastly Boy]

112. Ok, if you say so.

It might be a good speech, but I still see no attempt on your part to show relevance of your reply to my post.

Good bye.

[DiamondShark]

113. Context is key, sir.

If you didn't find an answer to your question, you may need to contact the Prime Minister's office directly.

[sarisataka]

96. Does that mean the Biden administration is terrorist?

A powerful government and weapons provider...

Is the Iranian government terrorist? They are regionally powerful and arguably have more global influence than Israel. They are supplying weapons to Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis among others.

Somehow though, I think on this moral pyramid, Iran is a force for good and the US, under Biden, is "complicit"

[raging moderate]

128. PLUS that New Testament writer was actually quoting the Jewish scriptures!

Her New Testament quotation was actually a quotation from the Old Testament Jewish scriptures (Deuteronomy 32:35)! The writer was a guy we call Paul, but that was actually a nickname. His original name was Saul, and he had originally been a Jewish clergyman. And he was quoting the Jewish scriptures.

[canuckledragger]

120. That's the ecuse Bibi and his muderous regime use when the death toll of innocent civilians gets too high to ignore.

Lie, and call them all terrorists of one kind or another. Like they do with the Palestinians to dehumanize them.

[RJ_MacReady]

80. still no response from the OP

Not surprising though.

[LexVegas]

88. Hamas and Hezbollah are freedom fighters and Biden is a war criminal. Bizarro world. nt

[pwb]

89. You know the O P

so well in just two months membership? The post did say "that is all". I take that to mean it was just a statement by our good friend.

[NickB79]

95. There is a search function, ya know

Maybe they stumbled upon the now infamous DU post where the OP likened Hamas to Nelson Mandela and freedom fighters, and got to know more about our good friend than he expected.

[H2O Man]

151. Plus

she had indeed responded, well before that person posted that she hadn't. I try not to set difficult standards in my mind for what is meaningful conversation ...... but to not take the time to check before you insult someone seems a tad foolish to me. Just my opinion.

[H2O Man]

148. Read closer.

She absolutely did respond, before you posted this. You have the right to agree or disagree with her. But you should be accurate, either way.

[TheKentuckian]

94. I guess this "freedom fighter" being off the board particularly stings.

I will accept the win.

[LexVegas]

101. It clearly upsets some. nt

[surfered]

104. This is why I'm so pessimistic about the Middle East...

As DUers, we are all like minded people and yet we can’t agree among ourselves.

There seems to be no middle ground.

[questionseverything]

126. The Bible says the fight that brings on the end of time starts

In the Middle East

Seven generations after Israel becomes a country

Who knows what is considered a generation though

So pessimism is probably the correct attitude… unfortunately

[EllieBC]

107. Here's a thread of folks who feel the same:

Link to tweet

One of them called Shani Louk a rave prostitute too so it’s no surprise they’d be sad a terrorist died.

[BannonsLiver]

108. This would be more credible coming from someone who didn't profess their admiration for Hamas

And there’s that “evil west” again. Why don’t you just say who exactly you’re talking about and stop beating around the bush.

[LexVegas]

110. Talking about Biden / Harris. Calling them war criminals. nt

[BannonsLiver]

111. Indeed.

Its silly that much of DU places such a high value on the opinion of someone who has zero role to play in our elections.

[Deep State Witch]

109. A Bunch of Dead Terrorists

I call this a good day. Hezbollah has killed many Americans and others since 1985.

[BannonsLiver]

115. Unfortunately some see killing Americans as a good thing because they're part of what the OP calls the "evil west."

Will leave it at that.

[emulatorloo]

116. Yeah well, you falsely promote Hamas as the spiritual heir to Nelson Mandela. Unsurprised yr championing Hezbolla now.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

118. Retired Navy SEAL, whose brother was killed in 1985 by Hezbollah, expressed relief at the news of Nasrallah's death

Link to tweet

[alarimer]

122. Netanyahu is fucking evil.

Time to cut off the money spigot.

[orthoclad]

124. Israel is a terrorist state.

[Coventina]

133. What would you call Iran? n/t

[LAS14]

125. Why? nt

[Polybius]

131. Hey malaise, anything to say about Iran's attack today?

I'd love to hear what you have to say.

[Coventina]

132. I'll wait with you for an answer......

[malaise]

136. An expected response

and it was long anticipated.
An eye for an eye - and all that typical Old Testament hate and vengeance .
Did you expect flowers?

[Demsrule86]

139. Hezbollah are terrorist and control Lebanon.

[Cha]

158. Fuck The GD Terrorist MF Hamas,

Hezbollah, Iran and those that support Terrorism.

[H2O Man]

152. The world is on fire.

I am opposed to the arsonists. I am for the innocent human beings being made to suffer and die. That's just my opinion, based upon my values.

[brush]

154. Agreed. Israel needs to relieve warmonger Netanyahu of duty and immediately...

sit for substantive peace negotiations to free the hostages and a sustained until agreed upon path to a two-state solution.

Who needs the warmonger bombing the hell out of neighboring countries and 75 more years of war.

[H2O Man]

156. One of the things

that always gets lost is that one can be pro-Israel, recognize their right to self-defense, and still be opposed to Netanyahu ...... who is clearly trying to help the felon get elected.

[brush]

157. Agreed.