Netanyahu, not Biden, is setting the agenda in the Middle East

[onandup]

Officials in the Biden administration felt blindsided by Friday’s Israeli airstrikes in southern Beirut that killed Hassan Nasrallah, and other senior Hezbollah figures, current and former officials say.

In the days before the Israeli attack, Secretary of State Antony Blinken had intensively shuttled between delegations in New York during the United Nations General Assembly session, trying to forge a 21-day cease-fire between Israel and Hezbollah.

President Joe Biden, Pentagon senior leaders and other senior officials across the administration were infuriated by the timing of the Israeli government operation, U.S. officials said.

Israel’s continued airstrikes in Lebanon, which have killed more than 1,000 people in two weeks, according to Lebanese health officials, have reinforced the administration’s fears that Netanyahu’s aggressive approach could trigger a chain reaction, resulting in a wider regional war that could possibly draw in the United States.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/netanyahu-not-biden-setting-agenda-middle-east-rcna173149

Israel will do as they please until we get serious about an arms embargo.

[rso]

1. RSO

Only because of the upcoming Elections. Once Harris wins, Biden/Harris will no longer have to worry about alienating voters who see placing any limits on Israel as being anti-jewish and/or soft on terrorism.

[former9thward]

7. Israel did not start the war with either Hamas or Hezbollah.

One is either for Israel, the lone U.S. ally in the Mideast, or one is for Hamas/Hezbollah. I doubt that after the election the U.S. will abandon Israel.

[rso]

11. RSO

I agree 100%, all I am saying is that after Harris wins, the Administration will be able to more openly express its views regarding Netanyahu for example. If the US is to broker an agreement, it has to be able to criticize Netanyahu’s intractable position when it comes to negotiations because a resolution would endanger his coalition government and probably result in his going to jail in Israel.

[DiamondShark]

25. moniss posted this yesterday and it bears repeating. SC Resolution 1701

It is foolish to think that this will deter the group and bring...
peace and security just like it was always foolish to think that for coming close to a century now. Kill the leaders and another takes his place in short order. Maybe if the UN stopped playing this weasel word game about Shebaa Farms and actually require the IDF to withdraw it might take away that excuse of Hezbollah. The Occupied Territory hardly anybody talks about.

The supposed "dispute" at the UN of whether that little area of land, about 6 miles by 1.5 Miles is part of Lebanon or Syria, and whether it falls under the requirement of Security Council Resolution 1701 for full withdrawal is weasel behavior at the UN at it's finest. Oh yes supposedly the problem is the ancient maps didn't have the lines showing it. But the UN brushes away the land deeds of the people who lived there with Lebanese stamped property deeds and receipts for taxes paid to Lebanon.

The "argument" on the other side is that it is Syrian because back in the '60's etc. that frontier area on the border of Lebanon and Syria had Syrian troops. So Israel took it as well as the separate area of the Golan Heights. IDF is still there. The UN claims that nothing can be done until Syria and Lebanon demarcate the actual border. The problem is that under international law demarcation discrepancies between countries are supposed to a 2 step process. First a notification is given to the UN. The second step is that engineers/surveyors are supposed to investigate the area and develop proposed border lines. Assad, right for one time in his life, has pointed out that is not possible to have the Lebanese and Syrian personnel do Step 2 because the IDF is occupying the area in question. It would be insane to think that if Syrian and Lebanese personnel showed up in jeeps and even got within a kilometer that the IDF wouldn't open fire. Notification ahead of time doesn't work too well either as we've seen in Gaza. Assurances by the UN as always are toothless and useless.

If Israel withdrew from Shebaa Farms would it end the cross border crap from going on? Maybe not but it would certainly remove a ready excuse by one side. SC Resolution 1701 has never been lived up to by any of the parties and despite playing semantic games about certified "withdrawal" the UN keeps going with this silly charade of playing like Shebaa Farms is somehow unfathomable. When the Israeli government talks about all of the missiles launched over the border why doesn't the UN have at least the ghost of a spine to say well what about all of the violations of 1701 going the other way? I guess that last question contains the answer.

It is a massive mess but the Western media plays this like it's just a straight up situation of Hezbollah lobbing rockets and Israel responding. That is simplistic and stupid reporting. The problems here are decades and decades deep and for instance involve Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, radical right wing elements with influence in Israel who have a stated desire for the Lebanese territory from the Litani River on down to the Israeli/Lebanon border, the inability of the Lebanese government to gain enough strength after it's own internal battles and invasion by outside forces of other countries turning Lebanon into a proxy battleground for everybody etc.

We have a media that is too shallow in thought to ever ask the plain question "Why does this keep going on?" If they bothered to ask they would find that an inconvenient part of the answer is that even when the killing hits a lull the problems aren't being corrected. The rise of new leaders and the recurring violence is as predictable as the sun rising in the East. When you keep using the same ingredients that make a chocolate cake why would anybody think it will be a lemon cake the next time? So the media defaults to just looking at things in a simplistic "of the moment" fashion. To a degree some of the media are employing the old game of "don't go finding problems because then somebody will have to try and do something about them". Like the old "keep your head down" and don't say anything routine.

Of course the UN has come out and expressed for the millionth time that it is "deeply concerned" and will certainly be in the lead for this year's Susan Collins Award.

[Eko]

29. Israel is a major non-NATO ally.

As well as Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, and Qatar all which are part of the Middle East. Israel is not our sole ally in the Middle East.
https://www.state.gov/major-non-nato-ally-status/

[Kid Berwyn]

2. Bibi's nuts.

He is so blinded by rage, he cannot see his own role in creating the current situation, let alone think up a single new idea.

[former9thward]

5. Israel did not start the war.

Hezbollah did. Hopefully Israel will finish it.

[Kid Berwyn]

8. Netanyahu's policies gave rise to the terror.

An opinion piece from The Times of Israel:

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

by Tal Schneider
Opinion/The Times of Israel, October 8, 2023

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

SNIP...

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.

According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.

CONTINUES...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

[former9thward]

9. A very distorted and non-historical opinion.

First, Abbas is not some sort of moderate. He is a terrorist who celebrated Oct. 7th. Second Israel did not put Hamas in power. Hamas murdered PA opponents in Gaza and then took power in the 2005 "election" with no election since. Third, very few in the region support a two-state solution. Most in Israel do not. Most in Gaza do not. Most in the West Bank do not. This is not a matter of Netanyahu.

[Kid Berwyn]

13. Netanyahu has led the hardliners against the two-state solution.

In power as prime minister of Israel from 2022, Netanyahu also served as prime minister from 2009-2021 and from 1996-1999. Netanyahu could have used his office to create the political and physical conditions required for peaceful co-existence. Instead, he played "divide and conquer" to a now-obvious disaster.

Maybe another prime minister can see a better way. Until then, Netanyahu won't even let the Israeli government investigate who was responsible for the security lapses that gave rise to the attacks of October 7. He knows who could have done things differently over the past 25 years.

[former9thward]

14. False.

The Oct. 7th investigations have been ongoing. Several top officials have resigned. Netanyahu could vanish tomorrow, and the majority of Israelis would still be against a two-state solution. There is no major party in Israel that still advocates it. The Palestinians have refused to seriously negotiate peace for 76 years now. Netanyahu has not been PM for 76 years.

[Kid Berwyn]

16. Netanyahu has blocked any Israeli government investigation into the attacks of October 7.

So, the Israeli people started their own. As for the Palestinians refusing to seriously negotiate, you must have missed the Oslo Peace Accords.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-oslo-accords/

And Netanyahu wasn't prime minister at that time.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/shattered-dreams-of-peace/

[former9thward]

19. Why bring up Olso?

A total failure. Oslo was a simply a temporary agreement to make permanent agreements down the road somewhere. By 1999, not a single Oslo deadline had been met. Negotiations on permanent status had begun three times but produced nothing. Palestinian under Arafat's leadership continued suicide attacks against civilians in Israel in violation of Oslo. Arafat was offered everything he wanted and then came back with more demands.

The Israeli military has been investigating Oct 7th, not the Israeli "people".

Israel’s military is conducting an investigation specifically into the intelligence failures that left Israel surprised when Hamas militants invaded on Oct. 7.

TEL AVIV—A top Israeli military intelligence official resigned on Thursday over his failure to prevent the Hamas-led attacks on Oct. 7, Israel’s military said.

Yossi Sariel, the commander of Unit 8200, the Israeli military’s largest and most important intelligence unit, told his commanders that he would step down in the near future, the military said.

Sariel is the second high-profile military official to resign over the Oct. 7 attacks, after the head of military intelligence, Maj. Gen. Aharon Haliva, stepped down in April.

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/idf-commander-unit-8200-yossi-sariel-resigns-7a9d58da

[Eko]

30. They did not put hamas in power

but they helped them stay in power by letting support go to them to help them retain power in gaza over other political entities.

[JohnSJ]

27. I am tired of these hamas apologists justifying what happened on October 7. The only ones responsible are

Hamas. No one forced them to attack, rape, terrorize, kill, and take hostages. This is all on them.

They are also responsible for the Palestinian deaths. They knew exactly what would happen when they did October 7, and in fact were counting on it. They thought it would unite Israel's enemies to attack and destroy Israel.

Another imbecilic move by the leadership of hamas, who has a history of such moves, and on October 8, with Hezbolah joining in by shooting missiles into Northern Israel, they just joined that stupidity.

Who in there right mind would think that what happened on Oct. 7, and the constant missiles being fired into Israel would not be met with extreme force?

[Eko]

31. I agree with this.

"No one forced them to attack, rape, terrorize, kill, and take hostages. This is all on them. "
On the other hand no one forced Israel to kill a bunch of civilians in Gaza. Why that is not on them but it is on hamas is quite interesting.

[JohnSJ]

33. Because Hamas instigated it. If they hadn't started it, none

of those Palestinian deaths that resulted from it would have happened.

[Eko]

35. Huh, cause they said they have a reason for the attack.

Hamas justified its attack as a response to what it calls Israeli crimes against the Palestinian people.
These include security raids on Islam's third holiest site - the al-Aqsa Mosque, in occupied East Jerusalem - and Jewish settlement activity in the occupied West Bank.
Hamas also wants thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israel to be freed and for an end to the blockade of the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt

.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67039975
Just using your logic, If Israel wouldn't have done security raids on Islams third holiest site, added more Jewish settlements in the West Bank and kept thousands of Palestinian prisoners (ones that don't have to be charged with a crime nor have a trial and held for years and years I must say) and ended the blockade of the Gaza Strip then they wouldn't have attacked. By that logic none of the Israeli deaths would have happened so it is all on Israel. I personally don't agree with that just like I don't agree with your take. Both parties have been going to the same restaurant that only serves shit sandwiches happily for decades now and seem like they like those shit sandwiches that are the original recipe of a world that didn't really care about either so they said, here, you two live here and then just walked away.
I just find you logic very one sided and if that is the case it is not logic at all. Kind of like the people that keep saying Israel is our only ally in the ME when that is not true at all. But if the history of the upheaval in the Mideast only started on Oct 7 2023 you would be entirely correct. I will give you that.

[JohnSJ]

37. That is no justification for what they did. As for the illegal settlements, an entirely different issue, and Hamas'

reckless STUPIDITY have destroyed any chance that this will end soon. Netanyahu was up to his neck in legal problems, and it was very likely to result in a vote of no confidence, and the leaders of Hamas knew that, but instead came up with this brillant plan to rape, torture, and kill civilians, laughing with sadistic glee during that hell, and took it upon themselves to reign that hell on Palestinians, even though they knew the retribution would be massive.

They planned on that response, and they thought that Israel's enemies would unite to destroy Israel. It didn't happen in 1967 or 1973, which were wars to destroy Israel, and other wars, where each time they lost more and more territory.

You would think they would have learned by now, and negotiate with good faith, but the corruption and history of the PLO/Arafat/Fatah stealing billions of dollars intended for the Palestinians, and Hamas charter vowing the destruction of Israel, unless they change their leadership and charter, nothing will change.

[Eko]

41. I agree that it was no justification for what hamas did.

Just as there was no justification for what Israel did afterwards. As for the illegal settlements being an entirely different issue that is easy for you to say but maybe not so easy for the Palestinians. If, as you say, it is an entirely different issue then why would what hamas have done destroy any chance for it it end soon? Maybe it is not an entirely different issue to the Israelis. And again, if what you say that hamas did what they did even though they knew the retribution would be massive from Israel what does that say about Israel? Are they that easy to manipulate? If hamas planned for that response and Israel did exactly what hamas wanted I would think that would indicate a problem with Israels military and political establishments. Reminds me of another band of terrorists that attacked a far bigger power to get them to waste lives and trillions of dollars in a war that ended badly. Now that I think about it that has happened a couple of times in the last what, 50 years or so? The ones I am thinking of also had very bad leaders that were to put it bluntly, stupid and or idiots. You would think they have learned by now not to play the terrorists games but sadly they have not and some people continue to fall prey to such a simple and historically retarded response. This is going by what you said of course. I am open to that being true but there may be other reasons for this happening. It could possibly be leaders taking advantage of situations to further their own political goals or even a combination of the two. Me? I'm just tired of both sides going to the same restaurant they have for over 70 years that only serves the same shit sandwiches and ordering them like they are going out of style and liking them. It's time for them to build a new restaurant that doesn't serve shit sandwiches and until they do I'm going to call them both out for it. You can support one side in their ordering of shit sandwiches while calling out the other side for ordering their shit sandwiches. I wont.
Eko.

[GreenWave]

17. Wars are declared. This is not a war.

[sarisataka]

18. How many wars has the US fought?

Now guess how many were declared.

[former9thward]

21. These are wars whether they met your definition or not.

And Hamas and Hezbollah declared war on Israel a long time ago. It is in their charters.

[hlthe2b]

3. I want to see Harris take him down about a thousand notches

and no, don't start a disingenuous argument with me about the killed Hezbollah leader, Nasrallah whose role in the Beirut US Marine barracks deaths during the Reagan administration has haunted us for decades (directed to a few who undoubtedly know who they are). That is a separate issue that I am not denying was long overdue.

But I maintain and will continue to argue that Netanyahu cares not a whit for the Israeli people--only for himself--very much like his corrupt favorite US politico, Donald Trump. And we, as Americans must respond accordingly.

[soandso]

34. Don't hold your breath

because US policy of arming Israel will not change and Kamala has said she will not change that policy. Yes, she's expressed sympathy for innocent Palestinians but she was firm on continuing to arm Israel. The US has also committed to defending Israel in a direct conflict with Iran. Dunno what that means (bombing, missiles from US ships, who knows???) but there it is. This is an entrenched policy and has not changed since Israel was created - including their strafing the USS Liberty and murdering US sailors.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. The U.S. hasn't gotten serious about what Israel is doing because it doesn't want to, that's it.

Leaders are so infuriated, they'll keep sending arms.

[SheltieLover]

6. No. pootin is. Through Netanyahu.

[former9thward]

15. Nonsense.

Did Putin want the Hezbollah leaders killed? They are allied with Russia.

[SheltieLover]

28. Really? On whose behalf dod tfg deliver a message?

[newdeal2]

12. In a weird way yes

None of the regional powers is serious about a real lasting peace or coexistence.

[Mosby]

23. Evidence?

Anything?

Do you think Hamas and Hezbollah, such as they are would agree with your claim that killing them is working in tandem with Israel?

Seems to me that you have some desire to pretend that the Israeli government is no different than terrorist groups. That's quite the claim. Damn.

[BannonsLiver]

20. Imagine caring more about that issue than our election.

🙄🤦‍♂️

[Mosby]

22. Regional war with who exactly?

And would draw in the US?

Lol.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

24. You keep pushing this nonsense about a US arms embargo despite VP Harris making it crystal clear

that that's not going to happen.

You've been told over and over and over again that it's not going to happen so at this point the logical conclusion is that you're going against the Biden/Harris Admin.

[Eko]

32. Come on buddy.

Out of all due respect and I have a lot for you I am against arming Israel with anything other than defensive armaments at this point and I certainly am not against the Biden/Harris admin. One can be critical of our side and leaders and one should voice that when they disagree with them. That doesn't mean we don't support the administration or are against them.
Thanks,
Keep on keeponing.

[brush]

26. That warmonger needs to be reined in. He's snubbing his nose at the US...

and expanding the war.

[soandso]

36. True

and I either read or heard on i24 (Israeli cable station) that the Israelis did not inform the US that they were going to kill Nasrallah until the bombers were on their way because they didn't want to put up with the US nagging them to hold off. They know that US support is basically unconditional, ultimately, so will do as they as they want. I do think they were somewhat influenced by US pressure on some of their later moves in Gaza not being as aggressive but that's about all the direction they're willing to take.

[ecstatic]

38. completely unacceptable. Bibi is free to set his own agenda,

but don't expect the US to help or assist in any way. For bibi to be doing all this shit in the middle of our elections and natural disasters is pretty fucked up, IMO. He is meddling and he is going to ruin relations between our countries.

[LowerManhattanite]

39. Bibi's a bigoted, Machiavellian sociopath...

…who’s cagily positioned himself in a way where to criticize him is somehow tantamount to critiquing the nation itself.

[totodeinhere]

40. Well, President Biden did call the attack a "measure of justice."

So Joe must not have been that furious about it.