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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy in the Sam Scratch are the Israelis bombing YEMEN?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/sep/29/middle-east-crisis-live-israel-bombardment-lebanon-hezbollah-hassan-nasrallah-latestAirstrikes launched at Yemen's Hodeidah port
There are reports of an airstrike on the the Red Sea port city of Hodeidah in Yemen. Reuters reports that fuel tanks were hit.
Hodeidah, which has been under Houthi control since 2021, is critical for delivering food and other necessities to the Yemeni population, who depend on imports. The Iran-backed Houthis have launched missiles and drones at Israel and disrupted global trade through the Red Sea in response to Israel’s ongoing assault on Gaza.
Do they WANT a war with Iran? Do they WANT to get bombed back to the Stone Age? Because I don't think either Biden or Harris will back them. Or much of anyone else.
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Lunabell
(7,309 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 29, 2024, 10:28 PM - Edit history (1)
He and his right wing government. EVIL. This goes beyond defending Israel.
Maybe if he would negotiate with sincerity to let the Palestinians have a homeland rather than trying to regain the borders of ancient Zion, others around Israel wouldn’t be so pissed off. There is no god given right to all of that territory. Times have changed. There is no Zion anymore.
MarineCombatEngineer
(18,059 posts)
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" - Gandhi.
It is not a question of responding or not responding, rather the appropriate level of the response.
You ask "so Israel isn't allowed to respond?"
I would ask this: is the right to respond a justification for any and all levels of response?
MarineCombatEngineer
(18,059 posts)Yes, Ghandi said that, and in this case, it's bullcrap, if Israel hadn't responded as they did, it would only invite even more horrendous attacks against Israel.
The appropriate level of response is with overwhelming fire power to take out their means to terrorize Israeli citizens. That's strategy 101.
Yes, the line to not cross would be the employment of nuclear weapons, other than that, whatever force is needed to stop the attacks is, IMHO, justifiable.
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 29, 2024, 07:19 PM - Edit history (1)
Anything up to the use of nuclear weapons is OK?
Is this the one and only case where it is not permissible to advocate for restraint, to call for an end to the slaughter of innocents? Is there no possibility to call for peace without being seen as a an enemy of Israel or a supporter of terrorists?
MarineCombatEngineer
(18,059 posts)Who said it's not permissible?
Certainly not me. Call for it to your hearts content, no one is stopping you nor should they, but there are a wide variety of opinions on this issue, ours are just two of many.
I certainly haven't done that and I won't, so your question to me is moot.
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)From what I have observed is is not possible to advocate for restraint, to call for an end to the slaughter, to call for peace without being seen as an enemy of Israel or a supporter of terrorists. You must have seen that, as well. Glad to know that you won't be doing that.
sarisataka
(22,681 posts)What, in your opinion, is an appropriate level?
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)Negotiations. Always. Or endless killing.
sarisataka
(22,681 posts)Just so I am clear, without putting words in your mouth, always means-?
Houthis fire missiles at Israeli cities, Israel should negotiate?
Hezbollah fires dozens of rockets daily into northern Israel, Israel should negotiate?
Hamas rapes/murders over a thousand Israelis and seizes hundreds of civilian hostages, Israel should negotiate?
EX500rider
(12,578 posts)sarisataka
(22,681 posts)hopefully they will clarify if they mean something else.
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)That is an obvious distortion of what I posted.
There is a lot of room between no response and anything goes.
Bev54
(13,429 posts)Endless killing, then.
sarisataka
(22,681 posts)I asked if there are options for Israel other than take it and negotiate. You are the one making is a black or white choice despite saying there are a range of responses.
So follow up question- does the same apply Hamas, Hezbollah et al? Should they negotiate always or is endless killing acceptable for them?
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)"Endless killing" is the reality, not just my words.
I did not say that Israel should "just take it."
I did not say that it is a black or white choice and I agree there are a range of possible responses.
The same applies, of course.
sarisataka
(22,681 posts)I look forward to your participation in the next terrorist attack on Israel, condemning the attack and promoting negotiations.
sarisataka
(22,681 posts)And I commend you for your integrity 
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219517463#post5
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)Thank you.
NickB79
(20,347 posts)Potentially killing US sailors?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/02/middleeast/phalanx-gun-last-line-of-defense-us-navy-intl-hnk-ml/index.html
If the CIWS hadn't shot it down, would you suggest the US also negotiate afterwards? No military response?
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)Obviously it isn't a case of either/or. Ever. The question is whether we are moving toward escalating and never ending war, or toward a peaceful settlement. Or what? How can you eradicate the threat once and for all? At what price?
NickB79
(20,347 posts)Are you unfamiliar with the Houthi motto?
"God Is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews, Victory to Islam"
They aren't fighting for political or economic reasons. It's purely religious fundamentalism. That's their entire brand: an Islamic caliphate, no different from ISIS.
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)The ongoing state of war is not really with Hezbollah, the Houthi, and Hamas, is it? Is it not ultimately with the population that harbors those organizations? Those organizations don't exist in a vacuum. Why can the threat represented by those organizations never be neutralized? Where does the support for the Islamic fundamentalism and radicalism come from? Can Israel ever eliminate the threat?
For how long now have we heard all of the reasons why there can never be peace.
Lovie777
(22,951 posts)Although unfortunately some parts are in with terrorists.
getagrip_already
(17,802 posts)Yes, the Bide/Harris admin will support Israel from foreign attack. NOTHING they have said indicates anything different.
I get that netanyahu is a fascist war criminal, but we still support the people and nation of Israel. Netanyahu needs to be in jail.
BrianTheEVGuy
(697 posts)…it’s always curious to me as how some people have absolute venom and bile for Netanyahu but not for the late Nasrallah, Sinwar, or other terrorist leaders.
Response to BrianTheEVGuy (Reply #8)
getagrip_already This message was self-deleted by its author.
BrianTheEVGuy
(697 posts)Nasrallah, Sinwar, and the Ayatollah have nothing to do with current events?
It must be hard work to be that naive in service to preconceived notions.
getagrip_already
(17,802 posts)Yes, they are involved with the current situation, ad are evil puppeteers.
That doesn't make netanyahu a saint.
But they are the source of the problem. The oct 8 attacks place the blame squarely. The response, however, has taken on a life of its own.
BrianTheEVGuy
(697 posts)soandso
(1,631 posts)and I'm not a supporter of Israel. We're talking some seriously awful people involved in all of this. I have an Iranian friend who is over the moon at Nesrallah and some of Iranian leaders being killed.
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)While it is true that some look for any excuse to criticize Israel, many criticize Netanyahu because the US is supporting him. Similarly, people in the US may be quicker to criticize Saudi Arabia than they are to criticized Iran.
When our own child's misbehavior is brought to our attention, we don't say "oh yeah? but what about that neighbor's kid??"
Jilly_in_VA
(14,360 posts)because he is essentially the slobfather in Hebrew. And I think he's a war criminal. So are the other guys, but that doesn't make him right in this.
BrianTheEVGuy
(697 posts)Leaving behind the questionable notion that the USA is another country’s parent, one has two options when your kid is being bullied:
1) Tell him to take it and let him get pummeled until he has broken bones, missing teeth, and brain trauma. Hope that the authorities who are doing nothing decide to intervene before your child dies;
2) Encourage your child to fight back and give the bullies broken, bloody noses when they pick a fight… so they know they are in jeopardy if they bully.
I’d choose option 2.
Cirsium
(3,940 posts)This topic is such a minefield, has been for decades. It really is it possible to discuss it. I know better than to try, and made the most non-confrontational pro-peace comments I could muster. But no chance.
LexVegas
(6,959 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(18,059 posts)Israel strikes targets including a seaport and power station in Houthi-controlled Yemen after the Iran-backed Houthis launched recent rocket and missile attacks on Israel. CNN's Jim Sciutto reports.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/29/world/video/yemen-explosions-israeli-strikes-port-sciutto-digvid
LexVegas
(6,959 posts)BrianTheEVGuy
(697 posts)Yemen has fired multiple ballistic missiles at Israeli cities.
Generally speaking, if you launch missiles at a country, that country has the right to retaliate and destroy your offensive infrastructure.
Launching missiles is an act of war; regimes and terrorist organizations that launch missiles at another country and then complain when they get the piss bombed out of their own capabilities are absurd.
Igel
(37,530 posts)It's okay for me to attack and kill you, but the Divine has said it is evil for you to resist the attack and your destruction.
Last suppers should be served with whine.
BrianTheEVGuy
(697 posts)If terrorists in the Dominican Republic were launching ballistic missiles at New York, Washington DC and Miami, would the US government respond with “restraint and diplomacy?”
If Americans watched video and images of charred corpses and mangled bodies in the streets of Manhattan, with flaming wreckage where a major office building once stood, would we call for restraint and diplomacy with the attacker?
Oh yeah, that’s not hypothetical is it? And did we reply with a Very Angry Letter?
No way. No responsible democratic government would.
Igel
(37,530 posts)The attack was on Saturday evening, local time. The response was Sunday.
EX500rider
(12,578 posts)Also:
Do they WANT a war with Iran? Do they WANT to get bombed back to the Stone Age?
Bombed back to the stone age by who?
The Iranian Air Force is a antique joke.
How decrepit?
They have 0 bombers and the type of fighter they have the most of are the 63 Phantom F-4's they got from the US back in the 70's, followed by the 40 or so F-14 Tomcats, also 70's vintage, neither any match for the IAF's F-35's and I would guess mostly held together by duct tape and baling wire and more a danger to their pilots then Israel.
And they already tried a massive missile & drone barrage which did next to zero damage.
Sympthsical
(10,962 posts)Not making it to one's own second paragraph has to be some kind of record.
And then a statement that the Saudis are probably funding Iran.
Tell me you have no idea what's going on in the Middle East without telling me . . .
MarineCombatEngineer
(18,059 posts)1. Who is going to bomb Israel back into the stone age?
Iran? The Houthis? Hizbollah? HAMAs?
Fact is that none of them have the capability to bomb Israel back to Stone Age.
2. The Biden Admin. has made it perfectly clear that they will defend Israel against an all out
war, and judging by the US build up of Naval, Air and ground forces, that seems to be the case.
Where are you getting your info from?
AloeVera
(4,255 posts)Interesting.
Here I've been led to believe that Israel is in a fight for its very existence. That it had no choice but to bomb Gaza back to the Stone Age. Now Lebanon, Yemen.
Turns out none of them actually pose an existential threat.
Turns out it is actually Israel posing an existential threat to all its neighbours!
You live and learn.
thucythucy
(9,097 posts)It would seem that some believe that unless some entity poses an existential threat to a nation, that nation is not entitled to respond to an attack.
Here's the question I keep posing that, thus far, no one has bothered for whatever reason to answer.
Was the US justified in its all out attack on Japan following its attack on Pearl Harbor?
Bearing in mind that Japan never posed anything close to an existential threat to the United States. Even the Japanese militarists knew this--their plan was to cripple the US navy for six months to a year, during which time Japan would secure its empire in Asia, after which the US was expected to negotiate a peace that allowed Japan to keep its gains.
Japan never contemplated invading the west coast, let alone attacking or occupying New York or DC.
So--no existential threat from Japan. The US was never in danger of being occupied or destroyed by the Japanese Empire.
So--was the US response--an overwhelming miliary campaign that resulted in hundreds of thousands if not millions of Japanese killed and maimed--appropriate? Or should FDR and his administration, in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor, have sought an immediate negotiated settlement to end the conflict?
Lacking an existential threat, how would you have handled that situation?
soandso
(1,631 posts)jimfields33
(19,382 posts)The Iran-backed Houthis have launched missiles and drones at Israel and disrupted global trade through the Red Sea in response to Israel’s ongoing assault on Gaza.
Sounds like the bombs came Israel’s way first. Israel isn’t going to put up with other countries bombing them.
Response to Jilly_in_VA (Original post)
Post removed
MarineCombatEngineer
(18,059 posts)but that doesn't change the fact that Israel has every right to retaliate against the terrorists, IE, Houthis, who fired missiles and drones against Israel.
DavidDvorkin
(20,588 posts)By Iran? You're kidding, right?
Jilly_in_VA
(14,360 posts)I suspect they are getting missiles, money, and support from Russia, China, and/or the Saudis. Take your pick.
JoseBalow
(9,481 posts)That pretty much says it all.
DavidDvorkin
(20,588 posts)soandso
(1,631 posts)This is a little over a year old but helps explains the complexity of the situation:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65197717
The middle east and is an extremely complicated place with many alliances of convenience (my enemy's enemy is my friend).
And this is helpful, lol:
JI7
(93,601 posts)Jilly_in_VA
(14,360 posts)They're the money folks. Follow the money.
sarisataka
(22,681 posts)that the wars in both Yemen and Syria are proxy conflicts between Saudi Arabia and Iran? Several other areas in the Middle East and Africa see the countries supporting opposite sides. Only recently have they restored diplomatic relations after seven years of none.
They do not even agree on Israel; Iran seeks a military solution while the Saudis back diplomacy. When Iran launched its barrage at Israel the Saudis aided in Israel's defense.
No, Saudi Arabia is most definitely not funding Iran.
Jilly_in_VA
(14,360 posts)and the Saudis have money everywhere, as do the Russian oligarchs. It's not above them to bet on both sides. Remember that the hijackers of 9/11 almost all held Saudi passports. They're not our friends or anyone else's. They're in it for themselves.
marble falls
(71,910 posts)... In the nineties, it was known they had over 200 nuclear devices. These days they claim a number between 40 and 400.
WIKI
Israel is also generally understood to have nuclear weapons,[3][4][5][6][7] but does not acknowledge it, maintaining a policy of deliberate ambiguity.[8] Israel is estimated to possess somewhere between 75 and 400 nuclear warheads.[9][10] One possible motivation for nuclear ambiguity is deterrence with minimum political friction.[11][12]
I do not think Iran has a chance in Hell.
cites for the paragraph:
3. International Studies. Retrieved 13 May 2010.
Hersh, Seymour (27 October 1991). "Authors Note". The Samson Option. Random House. ISBN 978-0394570068."This is a book about how Israel became a nuclear power in secret." (First sentence, Authors' Note/Introduction, The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy, Hersh)
4. "Nuclear Weapons: Who Has What at a Glance". Arms Control Association. July 2019. Retrieved 5 August 2020. "India, Israel, and Pakistan never signed the NPT and possess nuclear arsenals."
5. Rosen, Armin (10 November 2014). "Israel's Nuclear Arsenal Might Be Smaller And More Strategic Than Everyone Thinks". Business Insider. Archived from the original on 6 December 2016. Retrieved 16 January 2017. "The country possesses some of the most powerful weaponry on earth, along with delivery systems that give it the ability to strike far beyond its borders."
6. "Israel". Nuclear Threat Initiative. May 2015. Archived from the original on 16 January 2017. Retrieved 16 January 2017. "While experts generally agree that Israel possesses nuclear weapons, no such current open source consensus exists on the status of Israel's offensive chemical or biological weapons programs."
7. Stover, Dawn (16 September 2016). "Does Israel really have 200 nuclear weapons, or was Colin Powell exaggerating?". Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. Archived from the original on 18 January 2017. Retrieved 16 January 2017. "The boys in Tehran know Israel has 200, all targeted on Tehran, and we have thousands." citing primary source private email from Colin Powell to Jeffrey Leeds [1] Archived 16 February 2017 at the Wayback Machine
8. Harding, Luke (12 December 2006). "Calls for Olmert to resign after nuclear gaffe Israel and the Middle East". The Guardian. London. Retrieved 15 May 2009.
9. Nuclear Forces Archived 7 January 2015 at the Wayback Machine, Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, sipri.org
10. There are a wide range of estimates as to the size of the Israeli nuclear arsenal. For a compiled list of estimates, see Avner Cohen, The Worst-Kept Secret: Israel's bargain with the Bomb (Columbia University Press, 2010), Table 1, page xxvii and page 82.
11. NTI Israel Profile Archived 28 July 2011 at the Wayback Machine Retrieved 12 July 2007.
Avner Cohen (2010). The Worst-Kept Secret: Israel's bargain with the Bomb. Columbia University Press.
Here is an CIA document regarding Israel's nuclear capabilities:
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP91B00874R000100290005-6.pdf
Where they got enriched uranium:
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/nuclear-vault/2016-11-02/numec-affair-did-highly-enriched-uranium-us-aid-israels-nuclear-weapons-program
soandso
(1,631 posts)from an all out attack, by Iran. Doesn't matter what administration or what things the State Dept says. What exactly that means, I don't know but that's the policy.
IDF on ‘high alert’ as Biden vows US to defend Israel against ‘all threats from Iran’
Israelis told to ‘be vigilant’; Biden and PM in phone call discuss ‘new defensive US military deployments’; Hezbollah fires rockets at north for first time since commander killed
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-on-high-alert-as-biden-vows-us-to-defend-israel-against-all-threats-from-iran/
EllieBC
(3,639 posts)and by extension Iran? Fascinating.
Mysterian
(6,482 posts)"While Israeli air strikes have hit Yemen before in response to drone and missile attacks..."
Plonk.
myohmy2
(3,721 posts)...for Tehran...
...
krawhitham
(5,072 posts)
Excerpt follows; full article here.
One observer noted that the Israeli prime minister "has a habit of pretending to reach out to the people of the countries he intends to bomb next."
Brett Wilkins
Sep 30, 2024
Fears that Israel is planning yet another escalation of its multi-front Middle East war mounted Monday after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu delivered a recorded speech to the people of Iran vowing that they would soon be "free" from their current leadership.
Addressing the "noble Persian people" in English, Netanyahu accused Iran's theocratic rulers of plunging the region "deeper into darkness."
"When Iran is finally free—and that moment will come a lot sooner than people think—everything will be different," he said.
"When that day comes, the terror network that the regime built in five continents will be bankrupt, dismantled," Netanyahu claimed, adding that Iran will then "thrive as never before."
However, critics noted that such proclamations by the right-wing Israeli leader have previously portended attacks on the people he claimed to be saving.
(...)
"There is nowhere in the Middle East Israel cannot reach," Netanyahu ominously claimed during his speech on Monday.
" (T)hrive as never before" sounds an awful lot like Trump.
NickB79
(20,347 posts)The Houthis that control half of Yemen have shot missiles and drones at over 70 ships that they accused of supporting Israel. They've hit and severely damaged several, sunk two and seized one. They've also fired at US warships sent to protect those ships, in one case coming within seconds f actually hitting one before their close in weapons system shot the missile down. If they had hit one of our boats, we would have rained hellfire on their country by now.
They've shot multiple missiles at Israel itself, including at least one that got past Iron Dome.
They're bankrolled by Iran, just like Hamas and Hezbollah.
And, the Houthi slogan is "God Is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews, Victory to Islam"
Absolutely no one should shed a single tear for dead Houthi rebels.
sarisataka
(22,681 posts)Israel is being attacked from Yemen.
Uncle Joe
(65,118 posts)from their own homeland.
Thanks for the thread Jilly in VA.
soandso
(1,631 posts)is the elephant in the room.
Happy Hoosier
(9,533 posts)Jews only allowed if they submit to the boot of the Caliphate.
AloeVera
(4,255 posts)On their own lands.
Does Israel own the other countries too?
No, but that's where this is going.
Greater Israel.
And the root cause is 1948, not the Arab Nations' response to it.
soandso
(1,631 posts)and I think it's a disaster. Nevertheless, it happened long before the establishment of the Jewish state. Prior to that, Jews. Christians and Muslims, Druze, etc, lived among each other, for about 600 years (?), under the control of the Ottoman Empire, followed by control of the British post WWI. It was the British who started all of this trouble with the Balfour Declaration leading to the massive influx of European Jews who, though violence, displaced the natives and created the state of Israel. THAT is the elephant in room and so often not acknowledged for fear of being labeled "anti-semitic". The Palestinians didn't ask for any of this, that's the "why" of their resistance and this truth has to be freely spoken about. The PLO, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, etc, didn't spring out of nowhere, which die hard Israel supporters would have people believe. Nothing can be changed about the past and none of it excuses the current violence but all parties need to find a way to end it - which means major concessions from the Israelis and no more terror attacks from the Muslims or none of them will be able to live in peace.
struggle4progress
(126,130 posts)Ace Rothstein
(3,373 posts)Did you not read your own source? I doubt you'll respond to this.
AloeVera
(4,255 posts)That's called terrorism.
The bombing back to the Stone Age of Gaza and now probably at least two other ME poor countries by Israel is called self-defence.
The identity of the attackers determines if they are good guys or bad. Circumstances and root causes are not relevant.
Simple lesson in geopolitics and Western mores and morals.
Sigh.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)Then no shit.
BannonsLiver
(20,582 posts)AloeVera
(4,255 posts)By all means, go for it.
I pay no mind to the slur but I always remember who said it and why.
AloeVera
(4,255 posts)For far worse.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)provided the answer aka "Houthis have launched missiles and drones at Israel and disrupted global trade through the Red Sea", is brassy.
PCIntern
(28,359 posts)Right?
Well, it’s not gonna and it’s gonna do what every sovereign nation does when its homeland is attacked or invaded: it’s gonna retaliate.
Oh…but they’re Jews, right, so it is “different”? Nope…NEVER AGAIN means never again. Like: We’re not going back. Powerful stuff.
And btw, if the Jews had been given the planet Mars, there’d be a whole lotta people here who’d be saying “That’s rightfully ours and we want it back” so that’s why they’re not going anywhere.
regnaD kciN
(27,635 posts)Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)It's the Iranian terrorist proxies in full control of the largest port in Yemen.
And Israel is not bombing YEMEN, it is bombing the terrorist Iranian proxies in the largest port in Yemen.
Technically, what you did is called a fallacy of illicit transference. And it's a cheap trick.