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flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 01:47 PM Oct 2024

I'm gonna woman'splain something to men here about abortion as health care. Just so you know.

Most women know this stuff but so many men don’t that I’m going to use my nursing background to tell you. I also have had personal experience with a D&C after losing a twin pregnancy at 20 weeks.
Pregnancy 101 starts here.
Apologies in advance if this is too rudimentary for you.
A D&C is a surgical procedure to remove abnormal tissues from the uterine lining. Dilation and curettage (D&C) is a surgical procedure in which the cervix is opened (dilated) and a thin instrument is inserted into the uterus. This instrument is used to remove tissue from the inside of the uterus (curettage).
Statistically, It is safer than having a tooth pulled.

When a woman miscarries several things can go bad. During the first 3 months (first trimester =12 weeks)
a woman’s hormones may dip or fluctuate so much that the pregnancy is unsustainable. Sometimes the fetus is malformed or incomplete and isn’t going to keep growing normally. Maybe a trauma happens;
at any rate the fetus isn’t going to make it. Sometimes women choose to get an abortion for whatever reasons they have. Plan B pills are designed to open and empty the uterus by stimulating a period within a few days of conception. Most of the time these drugs work well and women don’t need to see a Dr at all.
Most women in the first trimester just have a hard period and the uterus is emptied. Miscarriage is fairly common and most women have no complications. BUT sometimes there may be something left behind.
Now the uterus, by design is very vascular, after all we produce the bloody lining for an egg every month.
If something isn’t passed out it can keep bleeding or just stay behind. The body has hormones telling it hey, you’re pregnant and don’t let go. So that is considered an Incomplete abortion or miscarriage.
Point: The uterus is NOT empty and in some cases the hormones didn’t get the message.
Most people don’t know that during the first trimester a women’s blood volume is TRIPLED, so when we mean bleeding we are talking about a LOT of blood. The fetus is not yet an ounce in size at twelve weeks.
Most women have missed a period at 6 weeks. By the way abortion nationwide used to be available until 16 weeks. This was kind of the golden week when the heartbeat first starts up. At 20 weeks a fluttering is felt by the mother.
Around the transition into the second trimester things get tricky. Fetus/placenta is growing larger and with all that blood severe complications happen, and can happen quickly. When things go bad to worse, there are the most common problems.
Whatever is going on these problems mean the pregnancy is over, the fetus is dead or dying.
The point is NOTHING will sustain life.
Problems like:
The amniotic fluid is escaped, thru a tear or spontaneous rupture.
The placenta detached and no blood or nutrients can get to fetus.
The fetus just doesn’t develop as it should. Trauma can be a factor;
a fall or car wreck, the flu, or just a miscarriage happening late.
The problem at this point is if the fetus is dead and the contents are not expelled it festers.
The further along in the pregnancy the worse the complications.

Now Mom needs real HELP. Second trimester from 12- 20 weeks problems are much more serious.
She will need Mifepristone or a like drug to stimulate contractions to expel the remainder
and sometimes followed with a D&C to suction out anything left behind.
This is the SAME drug that is used in labor/delivery to stimulate labor or post partum bleeding.
Also some women will also need a D&C in a timely manner.

These drugs and procedures will save almost anybody. They are fairly simple to perform and effective.

Unless you wait.

A high fatality rate is associated with bleedouts. I am talking a LOT of blood, too. (Remember that blood volume is tripled by now).
NOW Mom needs a transfusion and possibly (in severe bleeds)
surgery to remove the uterus before they bleed to death. QUICKLY too. This is the way we used to do it.
Now with our draconian laws, the Dr thinks she will spontaneously abort on her own and he just has to wait for this. Fever, pain and advancing systemic infection is setting in.
Now, If the contents are still there, the patient may have waited weeks, sometime months the woman is going into sepsis. A systemic infection that goes into every organ . Kidneys shut down, patient can go into shock or a coma. Death is imminent. Surgery and heavy medical support is your only hope.
They will take the whole uterus is it gets this far.

NOW imagine bleeding out in a parking lot with your husband, because the Dr is worried about losing his or her license. Or losing consciousness and waking up without a uterus because YOU waited too long.
Or explaining to her family why she died.

I will add that I saw a statistic that most of the women that have abortions are married with 3 children at home.
Sorry if this went on too long, but I keep seeing erroneous posts about abortion (not here usually)
and had to clear this up.

Thanks for listening to my woman’splaining rant.

105 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I'm gonna woman'splain something to men here about abortion as health care. Just so you know. (Original Post) flying_wahini Oct 2024 OP
Thank you for this clear and helpful explanation! spooky3 Oct 2024 #1
great summary... thx for taking the time! WarGamer Oct 2024 #2
It is refreshing and emboldoning FirefighterJo Oct 2024 #3
You are very much welcome. This is a valuable service. eppur_se_muova Oct 2024 #4
The only way to be ignorant of all this is... Girard442 Oct 2024 #5
We went through three miscarriages central scrutinizer Oct 2024 #6
Uglicans *NEVER* understand these things UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM. eppur_se_muova Oct 2024 #95
Thank you! alwaysinasnit Oct 2024 #7
And the already-born children, now without a mother. CrispyQ Oct 2024 #8
Make this a talking point Blue Full Moon Oct 2024 #31
It's not 'splaining when you answer questions, and I have one... Hugin Oct 2024 #9
I can answer that. Yes. yardwork Oct 2024 #14
I thought that was the case. Hugin Oct 2024 #17
I had a uterine mole aka a molar pregnancy and had one. ❤️ littlemissmartypants Oct 2024 #25
You see... Hugin Oct 2024 #51
Happy to help, Hugin. ❤️ littlemissmartypants Oct 2024 #77
Those are very rare. My MAGA ex sister in law had one and which had a 'stunted growth' fetus as well. flying_wahini Oct 2024 #54
I had one. Lunabell Oct 2024 #32
I'm so sorry, Lunabell. ❤️ littlemissmartypants Oct 2024 #78
Thanks. Lunabell Oct 2024 #83
I had to have a D&C. . . Collimator Oct 2024 #26
A similar circumstance occurred to someone I knew years ago... Hugin Oct 2024 #44
Yeah, uncontrolled bleeding during menopause comes to mind. flying_wahini Oct 2024 #50
Yes. I just had one. Whatthe_Firetruck Oct 2024 #74
Thank you for sharing your experience. Hugin Oct 2024 #85
Yes, I had one because of a condition called fibrous tumors. summer_in_TX Oct 2024 #94
It seems like there are a wide variety of conditions... Hugin Oct 2024 #97
Thank you for this explanation... MiHale Oct 2024 #10
This is important information that many of us men are smart enough to trust women and their docs to handle appropriately bluesbassman Oct 2024 #11
If men had to experience childbirth or even a heavy menstrual period milestogo Oct 2024 #12
My Catholic raised (but non-practicing) mom used to say: Cadfael Oct 2024 #19
My Catholic mom had surgery after ectopic pregnancy, D&C after miscarriage, had her tubes tied after the 8th child SharonAnn Oct 2024 #24
Stuff the Virgin Mary never told us. BattleRow Oct 2024 #38
And there would be a clinic... 3catwoman3 Oct 2024 #42
I don't think it is as much lack of empathy but a misunderstanding that abortions (D&C's) really is flying_wahini Oct 2024 #56
Thank you. In NC the Republican state legislature wouldn't allow public comments. yardwork Oct 2024 #13
I think refusing to hear expert input about these laws is deliberate. ShazzieB Oct 2024 #34
Yeah, the "irresponsible sluts" who are married Wednesdays Oct 2024 #52
This is a fantastically concise explanation -- thank you! LauraInLA Oct 2024 #15
I'm one of those men who didn't know this stuff.. Permanut Oct 2024 #16
Awesome explanation! Thank you so much! Tanuki Oct 2024 #18
Thank you. K&R. c-rational Oct 2024 #20
I don't resent you 'splainin' all that. 'Splain away, though I know most of it... Wounded Bear Oct 2024 #21
I had a miscarriage at 22 weeks and my husband and I waited in the ER littlemissmartypants Oct 2024 #22
Recced and book marked! LostOne4Ever Oct 2024 #23
Thanks for this! ShazzieB Oct 2024 #27
One of my siblings had two boys malaise Oct 2024 #28
This should be all over social media. nolabear Oct 2024 #29
Thank you! This is so useful MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #30
Debbie Reynolds' miscarriages prior to Roe vs Wade MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #33
Just because something is normal and even necessary doesn't mean it's SAFE Warpy Oct 2024 #35
Thank you for explaining! Elessar Zappa Oct 2024 #36
THIS should be published on the front page of every major newspaper - TBF Oct 2024 #37
You did good, flying wahini. After Dobbs, I guess everybody here heard me explode I was so triggered... Hekate Oct 2024 #39
Your poor mother. Yes, I knew of so many women that came in for their 8,9 tenth pregnancies flying_wahini Oct 2024 #59
My mom's choice of family doc was a good man. Dr O was a Roman Catholic, but no fanatic... Hekate Oct 2024 #67
This is why I have been on DU for 20 years. My wife had two miscarriages madinmaryland Oct 2024 #40
Thank you for this explanation LogDog75 Oct 2024 #41
This is an excellent OP. MontanaMama Oct 2024 #43
Thank you so much for this post!! Sogo Oct 2024 #45
Thank you. It made me cry. To be so helpless and at the mercy of these goddamn thugs Joinfortmill Oct 2024 #46
I hate these chickenshit Dr.s who are scared to death to ACT. The Hippocratic Oath flying_wahini Oct 2024 #60
Good info. Thank you for posting. FSogol Oct 2024 #47
This bugs me, and please forgive me calling anyone here an idiot. rockbluff botanist Oct 2024 #48
You know it occurred to me that maybe that is part of the problem. That men flying_wahini Oct 2024 #62
Very interesting. I readily found the Emily Martin article from 1991, and look forward to reading it Hekate Oct 2024 #71
But how do you square this with a pregnancy that results from rape? CTyankee Oct 2024 #81
Well, maybe this is over-simlifying, Mr.Bill Oct 2024 #103
I agree 100% on that for sure. CTyankee Oct 2024 #104
Wow, interesting! electric_blue68 Oct 2024 #90
That's excellent detail LittleGirl Oct 2024 #49
K&R Bayard Oct 2024 #53
Yea, they are hearing nothing at 6 weeks. Pumping from the placenta makes a kind of swooshing sound. flying_wahini Oct 2024 #64
Thanks for that... learned a few things!! InAbLuEsTaTe Oct 2024 #55
Could you, or someone, please make a graphic nonfiction book with clear illustrations, and personal stories, Timeflyer Oct 2024 #57
As I mentioned earlier, maybe we should use the term D&C instead of 'abortion'. It might help get thru. flying_wahini Oct 2024 #65
Those books already exist, but you might have to look in the Women's Health section of bookstores... Hekate Oct 2024 #76
And honestly, we shouldn't have. Doctors get years Ilsa Oct 2024 #91
It's cruel to make women have to face a long road trip right after dealing with these sorts of medical complications. nt Shermann Oct 2024 #58
K&R canetoad Oct 2024 #61
I would bet you that most of the men on SCOTUS don't understand it all. flying_wahini Oct 2024 #66
Someone at my job taught me the perfect retort GAJMac Oct 2024 #63
I think women need medical professionals that take charge in these situations. And angry husbands. flying_wahini Oct 2024 #68
It makes no sense that anyone else should care what is happening in the patients life. flying_wahini Oct 2024 #69
um, Kali Oct 2024 #70
I stand corrected. The latest figures I just saw said 60% . We were taught tripled and I didn't recheck. flying_wahini Oct 2024 #72
Might want to edit the OP. Ms. Toad Oct 2024 #93
Dear op: It isn't a rant. It's plain old, B.See Oct 2024 #73
People familiar with genealogy know what happened to women in the past wnylib Oct 2024 #75
Thank you for this very clear and excellent explanation. A must read! HeartsCanHope Oct 2024 #79
K & R - this is an excellent post FakeNoose Oct 2024 #80
I don't think most Republicans consider this kind of care an 'Abortion'. They consider it birth control. flying_wahini Oct 2024 #82
Lifetime maternal death rate used to be 50% IbogaProject Oct 2024 #84
This coming from a nurse bdamomma Oct 2024 #86
Thank you, excellent post wendyb-NC Oct 2024 #87
Your post raises one question for me hvn_nbr_2 Oct 2024 #88
Thanks. Good job. philly_bob Oct 2024 #89
Good explanation. mdbl Oct 2024 #92
The thing that gets me is, these MAGA crazies want women to die because they couldn't sustain a pregnancy. mucholderthandirt Oct 2024 #96
woman'splaining means telling the truth if..fish..had..wings Oct 2024 #98
Every GOP politician should read this. surfered Oct 2024 #99
This is Great Mr. Mustard 2023 Oct 2024 #100
Thank you Wild blueberry Oct 2024 #101
Labor and delivery nurse friend KT2000 Oct 2024 #102
Fantastic post. You put several points into context lostnfound Oct 2024 #105

FirefighterJo

(442 posts)
3. It is refreshing and emboldoning
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 01:59 PM
Oct 2024

To hear the truth. What life is all about. The Utérus is the cradle of life. So fragile and special. And yet so powerful. The woman as its guardian x we as men only plant the seed but are expected to care for and guard the fruit. Thank you x

eppur_se_muova

(40,919 posts)
4. You are very much welcome. This is a valuable service.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:02 PM
Oct 2024

Never fathered a child myself, but this is exactly the kind of thing I would want to know before even considering conception.

Girard442

(6,817 posts)
5. The only way to be ignorant of all this is...
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:05 PM
Oct 2024

...to hate knowledge, hate science, and hate women.

Not hard if you're a MAGAt.

central scrutinizer

(12,648 posts)
6. We went through three miscarriages
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:05 PM
Oct 2024

And my wife had a D&C each time as soon as possible. We do have a wonderful daughter. After the last one I did a vasectomy. That was more than enough.

eppur_se_muova

(40,919 posts)
95. Uglicans *NEVER* understand these things UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM.
Mon Oct 7, 2024, 04:14 AM
Oct 2024

How many Uglicans have you seen explaining that they changed their views on LGBT+ issues only *AFTER* one of their children came out ? Until that happened, it was perfectly all right (pun) to be not just ignorant but utterly unimaginative about what those affected must experience. They didn't even *TRY* to think about the real consequences of their actions -- just their ultra-simplistic, simple-minded notions of "we don't like that, make it illegal and then everything will be better".

Abortions, of course, only happened to mistresses, who were just property anyway.

CrispyQ

(40,651 posts)
8. And the already-born children, now without a mother.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:09 PM
Oct 2024

And the additional medical bills because of the wait. There will be lawsuits, I'm sure, over the additional debt families have incurred due to draconian abortion laws & there should be.

Real men realize abortion is a very private issue that the state has absolutely no business sticking their nose in just like other medical procedures.

Blue Full Moon

(3,123 posts)
31. Make this a talking point
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:01 PM
Oct 2024

While almost everyone would be concerned about the health and well-being of women and children. Republicans really end up just concerned about money. Medical bills and how to pay for child care are expenditures.
But also it could be they love money. Maybe the thought of they could sue and get even more money is more of a driving force.

Hugin

(37,366 posts)
9. It's not 'splaining when you answer questions, and I have one...
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:10 PM
Oct 2024

Can a D&C be required for conditions not related to pregnancy?

yardwork

(68,933 posts)
14. I can answer that. Yes.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:26 PM
Oct 2024

D&Cs are used to treat numerous issues unrelated to pregnancy. My mom had one years after menopause because she started bleeding again.

littlemissmartypants

(31,536 posts)
25. I had a uterine mole aka a molar pregnancy and had one. ❤️
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:51 PM
Oct 2024
A molar pregnancy, also known as a hydatidiform mole, is an abnormal form of pregnancy in which a non-viable fertilized egg implants in the uterus. It falls under the category of gestational trophoblastic diseases.[1] During a molar pregnancy, the uterus contains a growing mass characterized by swollen chorionic villi, resembling clusters of grapes.[2] The occurrence of a molar pregnancy can be attributed to the fertilized egg lacking an original maternal nucleus. As a result, the products of conception may or may not contain fetal tissue. These molar pregnancies are categorized into two types: partial moles and complete moles, where the term 'mole' simply denotes a clump of growing tissue or a ‘growth'.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_pregnancy

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
54. Those are very rare. My MAGA ex sister in law had one and which had a 'stunted growth' fetus as well.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:14 PM
Oct 2024

Went into Renal failure and was about to die before they took it and the mole. She very nearly
almost died and is still voting for Trump. Go figure.

 

Lunabell

(7,309 posts)
32. I had one.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:04 PM
Oct 2024

I needed a tissue biopsy of my uterine wall because of a bleeding issue. Basically an abortion without a pregnancy. Very painful.

 

Lunabell

(7,309 posts)
83. Thanks.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 07:11 PM
Oct 2024

That was decades ago but I can still remember as I was lying on the exam table, wanting to kick my Gynecologist in the face, lol. Thank goodness it was a negative biopsy.

Collimator

(2,077 posts)
26. I had to have a D&C. . .
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:55 PM
Oct 2024

. . . because I had been bleeding, on and off, for nearly 6 weeks (or possibly longer.). It sounds crazy, but I was under so much stress going through a divorce at the time that I wasn't really counting the days. I just thought that I had one of those lingering periods and another one that came after a short cycle.

It wasn't until I sat down with my therapist and starting talking about everything that was happening to me that I realized that I was having a physical health problem. I had just become so used to feeling weak and miserable. My therapist gave me what for and pushed me to see a GYN.

Hugin

(37,366 posts)
44. A similar circumstance occurred to someone I knew years ago...
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:58 PM
Oct 2024

I was only aware it involved something like a D&C and that's why I asked.

Thanks for enlightening me!

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
50. Yeah, uncontrolled bleeding during menopause comes to mind.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:11 PM
Oct 2024

I’m sure there are issues with cancer related causes, but most usually it is used for regular abortions and complications of miscarriage.

Whatthe_Firetruck

(610 posts)
74. Yes. I just had one.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 05:26 PM
Oct 2024

I'm post menopausal (60ish) but have been having heavy bleeding issues for most of my adult life.

I've having mobility issues so a home.nurse was paying me visits. At the end of August she came by, looked at the paleness of my face and called 911. I wound up in the hospital where they documented me passing blood clots the size of golf to tennis balls and a bloodcount in the basement.

They gave me 3 units of blood, a d&c, then another unit of blood and two units of iron. They put me on northendrone(sic) then doubled it when I was still clotting. To be perfectly honest I hoped they'd just take my uterus so I'd be done with the bleeding but no such luck.

My youngest was born in '85, and my husband had a vasectomy shortly after. So my current situation has nothing to do with pregnancy, But it was necessary to save my life.

summer_in_TX

(4,030 posts)
94. Yes, I had one because of a condition called fibrous tumors.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 11:27 PM
Oct 2024

They are benign, but they cause unusually heavy and irregular periods. Blood flows can very quickly go through tampons and pads and clothes. Very embarrassing to deal with, especially teaching at my son's school.

I had a D&C, then a tubal ligation, since we didn't intend to have more than the two children we already had. I'd developed severe anemia because of all of the blood loss, so had to take liquid medicine with iron to recover.

Hugin

(37,366 posts)
97. It seems like there are a wide variety of conditions...
Mon Oct 7, 2024, 06:44 AM
Oct 2024

For which a D&C may be required as part of a treatment plan.

Shame on those zealots for trying to vilify and legislate away things that they have no personal stake in and don’t understand.

MiHale

(12,587 posts)
10. Thank you for this explanation...
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:16 PM
Oct 2024

We had a couple pregnancies that didn’t work out. All I could do was be there for her.

bluesbassman

(20,372 posts)
11. This is important information that many of us men are smart enough to trust women and their docs to handle appropriately
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:17 PM
Oct 2024

Unfortunately far, far too many Republican men haven’t a clue about how any of that works, yet feel qualified to make unilateral life and death medical decisions for all women because someone checked their name on a ballot. It’s maddening to me, I can’t even begin to know how women process their feelings about this issue we’re now dealing with again.

milestogo

(22,493 posts)
12. If men had to experience childbirth or even a heavy menstrual period
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:20 PM
Oct 2024

they might have more empathy.

Cadfael

(1,355 posts)
19. My Catholic raised (but non-practicing) mom used to say:
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:38 PM
Oct 2024

If men could get pregnant abortion would be a sacrament.

SharonAnn

(14,136 posts)
24. My Catholic mom had surgery after ectopic pregnancy, D&C after miscarriage, had her tubes tied after the 8th child
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:50 PM
Oct 2024

And she NEVER questioned that those were all the right things for her to do.

She died as a still a practicing Catholic.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
56. I don't think it is as much lack of empathy but a misunderstanding that abortions (D&C's) really is
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:20 PM
Oct 2024

HEALTHCARE. Sometimes there are NO other options.
This is something women die over -Not getting life saving medication and care.
They hear the word “abortion” and that’s as far as their brains go.
We REALLY need to use the term D&C for incomplete abortions.
“ Abortion” has a stigma old men can’t get around.

yardwork

(68,933 posts)
13. Thank you. In NC the Republican state legislature wouldn't allow public comments.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:23 PM
Oct 2024

They passed an anti-abortion law in the middle of the night after refusing to allow physicians, nurses, and other health care providers to testify. No expert input allowed.

North Carolina's law isn't as bad as some but it's bad enough. It's already difficult for women to find doctors and hospitals to deliver babies. Doctors will leave these states and more hospitals will close. And the Trumpsters will have succeeded in creating more chaos and dysfunction, which is their goal.

ShazzieB

(22,192 posts)
34. I think refusing to hear expert input about these laws is deliberate.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:14 PM
Oct 2024

They know that if they let the doctors talk, they will hear about all the ways that their precious abortion bans will harm people, and they'd rather not know about those things. It's the legislative equivalent of this:



They also deliberately make any exceptions to their bans as vague as possible, because they see them as loopholes that doctors might "take advantage of" to provide abortion care to women who don't (in their opinion) "need" it. What if a few women are harmed or even die as a result? No biggie. Saving the "babies" from those irresponsible sluts who can't keep their legs together is all they care about!

Wounded Bear

(63,809 posts)
21. I don't resent you 'splainin' all that. 'Splain away, though I know most of it...
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:44 PM
Oct 2024

I've always supported women't health care in all of its facets up to and including abortion on demand.

As for the details, I want women everywhere to have access to experts that know about and take care of all that. It's part of life, and those religious nutcases trying to turn the US into Gilead should grow up and mind their own fucking business.

littlemissmartypants

(31,536 posts)
22. I had a miscarriage at 22 weeks and my husband and I waited in the ER
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:45 PM
Oct 2024

At Virginia Beach General Hospital for what felt like forever. Because I was on a stretcher and kept fainting.

I will never forget what the nurse said when she pulled back the sheet as I was being wheeled down the hall. Particularly because she was So Loud which aside from being wholly unprofessional was and is bad form for an ER nurse or any health care provider of any kind.

She said, "Oh, my God there's so much blood!"

I had started bleeding in the morning getting ready for work. By this time it was one in the afternoon.

I had been waiting with my terrified husband, bleeding for five hours.

I knew that I had already lost our baby. But only now, after reading this do I know how close I myself must have been to something potentially catastrophic and possibly fatal.

Thanks so much for taking the time to share this.

❤️

malaise

(292,500 posts)
28. One of my siblings had two boys
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:55 PM
Oct 2024

She wanted a daughter so badly. They were thrilled when she was pregnant with her girl. Then everything went wrong. The scumbags in Florida would probably have let her die today.
Thankfully she’s still around enjoying a grand daughter

nolabear

(43,847 posts)
29. This should be all over social media.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 02:57 PM
Oct 2024

Yes, I knew, having had both children and an abortion, and caring enough to find out, but you did a wonderful job of “womansplaining.” Part of me wishes Kamala would just recite this in one of her speeches.

Warpy

(114,375 posts)
35. Just because something is normal and even necessary doesn't mean it's SAFE
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:17 PM
Oct 2024

Somebody has to tell these religious knuckleheads that. I've been trying to do it for years. I pass the torch to you, so thanks.

Yes, I was a nurse.

Elessar Zappa

(16,385 posts)
36. Thank you for explaining!
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:20 PM
Oct 2024

I’m a man and didn’t know some of the stuff you wrote. More men need to be willing to be educated.

TBF

(35,564 posts)
37. THIS should be published on the front page of every major newspaper -
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:23 PM
Oct 2024

rather than the click-bait Trump story of the day.

Hekate

(100,132 posts)
39. You did good, flying wahini. After Dobbs, I guess everybody here heard me explode I was so triggered...
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:32 PM
Oct 2024

I was the oldest child in my family. My mother gave birth to and raised 4 living children during the Baby Boom. During my first 9 years of life she was pregnant 7 times.

Of the pregnancies she lost, one was a full term stillbirth. One was a complete mess of a miscarriage in which she nearly bled out in the operating room and had a classic out of body experience. (I did ask her what it was, meaning gender, and she said the docs said they couldn’t even tell how many it was, it was such a mess.) The other miscarriage was incomplete, and she just lived with chronic blood loss, anemia, and utter exhaustion until the family doc noticed her ill health and questioned her when she brought us kids in for something, at which point he ordered her to to go for a D&C.

A D&C was standard of care, for God’s sake, for a variety of “female troubles,” way back in the 1940s and 1950s. And now in the 21st century Talibornagain fanatics and fascist idiots have redefined it as “abortion.” Seems they have decided anything to do with our lady-parts is an abortion.

That’s it. I’ve been careful — and lucky — and my contraceptives of choice always worked for me. But here’s something bizarre: the same religious fanatics and fascists long ago redefined the contraceptives I used in my fertile years as abortifacients, meaning they will lie about anything and everything to do with female reproductive care. And they really do not care if women die.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
59. Your poor mother. Yes, I knew of so many women that came in for their 8,9 tenth pregnancies
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:29 PM
Oct 2024

And their husbands would NOT sign allowance for sterilization form.
In Texas, as in many states, the husband’s signature was required.
These women would beg and cry and plead and they WOULD NOT SIGN. Saying it was not against GOD.
Oh the tears and here we are decades later it still haunts me.

Hekate

(100,132 posts)
67. My mom's choice of family doc was a good man. Dr O was a Roman Catholic, but no fanatic...
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:50 PM
Oct 2024

With my last brother (now age 67) Dr O wasn’t sure if she was going to have to have a C-section, since baby was sideways, then breech, and only at the very end did he present properly. In any case, the good doctor said if she was already open for a C-section, he could call on a colleague to do a tubal ligation, and he could turn his back. As it was, baby was born okay and it was my dad who went and got his tubes tied. But Dr O was right to worry about her health.





madinmaryland

(65,662 posts)
40. This is why I have been on DU for 20 years. My wife had two miscarriages
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:32 PM
Oct 2024

After our daughter was born. One was about nine weeks and the other at 14 weeks.

Thanks for the very detailed information.

LogDog75

(1,077 posts)
41. Thank you for this explanation
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 03:37 PM
Oct 2024

Too often when we, especially men, discuss abortion it is in the aspect of legality and individual rights. Your explanation takes it to a higher level, that of the biological and medical causes which most people don't know or understand. Thank you for explaining and educating us.

Sogo

(6,971 posts)
45. Thank you so much for this post!!
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:04 PM
Oct 2024

I have waited for years for a medical professional to step forward and set the record straight.

It remains to be seen if the religious fanatics want to live in a first world country....

Joinfortmill

(19,991 posts)
46. Thank you. It made me cry. To be so helpless and at the mercy of these goddamn thugs
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:05 PM
Oct 2024

and their draconian laws that are killing women. I hate them all.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
60. I hate these chickenshit Dr.s who are scared to death to ACT. The Hippocratic Oath
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:34 PM
Oct 2024

phrase "First do no harm" Should hang in every surgical suite.



rockbluff botanist

(360 posts)
48. This bugs me, and please forgive me calling anyone here an idiot.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:06 PM
Oct 2024

As a biologist, I hear men ever so confidently talk about planting a seed. Sperm are not a seed! This is total crap. Sperm do not implant and grow, ever!! These idiots actually believe this is what happens. Reproductive biology education is desperately needed in school curriculum. It is different than Sex Ed.

An ovum can and does develop into a living creature in some species. Research has been done on the possibility of parthenogenesis in humans. The resulting offspring are all females, for now. This cannot be done with a sperm.


Up until fairly recently, the science of biology has been male driven. The female ovum always given a back seat to the manly sperm. Oh, he gushes, (no pun intended) about the millions of his sperm produced every day. It takes so much less to produce sperm than an ovum.

The Egg and the Sperm: How Science Has Constructed a Romance Based on Stereotypical Male-Female Roles” by Emily Martin is a logic and science driven paper that should be read.

There is ample evidence to show that as millions of human sperm cells swim towards a waiting ovum or egg, only one gets to fertilize it. Now, a new study shows that even though the fastest and most capable sperms reach the ovum first, it is the egg that has the final say on which sperm fertilizes it. This study is titled, "Chemical signals from eggs facilitate cryptic female choice in humans."

This new study by researchers from the U.K. and Sweden, looked at the dynamics between the waiting ovum and the sperms that swim towards it. The team says that there is a chemical communication that occurs between the female reproductive system that receives the sperm and the incoming sperm cells from the male partner. They explained that the primary mechanism might be known, but the molecular mechanism that forms the basis of choice of sperm cell by the egg is not clear. They write, "there is a growing appreciation that females can bias sperm use and paternity by exerting cryptic female choice for preferred males."

This is a fascinating area of research. There is much that is not as it historically seems.

Thank you for listening to my female biology-splaining.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
62. You know it occurred to me that maybe that is part of the problem. That men
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:38 PM
Oct 2024

Aren’t getting that male driven medicine doesn’t address women much at all.
Maybe they feel left out of the process and it is the way they assert their power.

Hekate

(100,132 posts)
71. Very interesting. I readily found the Emily Martin article from 1991, and look forward to reading it
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 05:11 PM
Oct 2024

Apparently it has been anthologized along the way, in a feminist oriented book of scientific studies, as well.

Also found the more recent study. I do remember reading something about this some years back, and it gave me a chuckle at the time.

Researchgate.net appears to be generous in sharing these pdfs, which is not always the case.
Anyone else who is interested can just copy-paste the info as you give it, ie author and title.



Mr.Bill

(24,906 posts)
103. Well, maybe this is over-simlifying,
Mon Oct 7, 2024, 01:14 PM
Oct 2024

but when a woman has had a violent crime commited against her, how dare we allow the law to dictate what her reproductive future should be?

LittleGirl

(8,944 posts)
49. That's excellent detail
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:09 PM
Oct 2024

I wasn’t able to get pregnant and because of my constant bleeding, I was put on birth control. I had to get a doctor note for my insurance to cover them because I worked for a Catholic university. That was the late 80s.

I know many women who have had children with complications and near death experiences even before Dobbs overturned Roe. I lost a nephew at 8 months gestation because the mother had pregnancy induced diabetes she wasn’t aware of. The baby died in vitro. My bff had two abortions because she was single and would get deathly ill while pregnant. She never wanted children but her birth control failed twice, ten years apart.

Bayard

(28,473 posts)
53. K&R
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:13 PM
Oct 2024

Thanks for posting this. Very valuable and sensible.


My biggest gripe, (other than the obvious,) is the people claiming to hear a heartbeat at 6 weeks.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
64. Yea, they are hearing nothing at 6 weeks. Pumping from the placenta makes a kind of swooshing sound.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:39 PM
Oct 2024

Timeflyer

(3,651 posts)
57. Could you, or someone, please make a graphic nonfiction book with clear illustrations, and personal stories,
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:20 PM
Oct 2024

to explain to men, esp. GOP, what the heck really happens with pregnancy and why, for $#%^&**&xgd sake, abortion is healthcare. And patients and doctors, nobody else, should be involved in the decisions.

Maybe there is such an item, but getting into the right hands, and getting the info past the forced-birther mind barriers, will be hard.

Womansplain away--don't you wish you didn't have to? Over and over? Thanks for your post.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
65. As I mentioned earlier, maybe we should use the term D&C instead of 'abortion'. It might help get thru.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:41 PM
Oct 2024

Hekate

(100,132 posts)
76. Those books already exist, but you might have to look in the Women's Health section of bookstores...
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 05:46 PM
Oct 2024

Or in the more advanced Young Readers sections. Start with Women’s Health.

At one time I had a beautifully photographed book of the developing fetus, but can’t find it just now. I also have at hand a wonderful pop-up book that I got at the local Planned Parenthood Annual Used Book Sale — unfortunately it’s all in Swedish or a similar Nordic language. The artwork is fantastic, including very detailed male genitalia, often overlooked. Authors are Jonathan Miller and David Pelham, publisher is Brombergs, title is “Borjan Till Livet” (umlaut over the O )

One thing that must be included and emphasized is progression from fertilized egg to recognizable human. I knew this all from an early age (thanks Mom) but recently had a surprising conversation with a highly intelligent pro-feminist man who didn’t know that at 6 weeks gestation there is not only no heart with which to have a heartbeat, but that the entire thing is only about 1/4 “ long and looks like nothing human yet. One effect of the relentless propaganda over the past 50+ years was to make him (and probably countless others) imagine that a homunculus existed from the first month.

Ilsa

(63,806 posts)
91. And honestly, we shouldn't have. Doctors get years
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 09:02 PM
Oct 2024

of education and training. Government agencies have reviewed longitudinal data on these women's health issues. The experts should be trusted on this subject, and bureaucrats should stay out of it. Stare decisis.

Shermann

(9,004 posts)
58. It's cruel to make women have to face a long road trip right after dealing with these sorts of medical complications. nt
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:23 PM
Oct 2024

canetoad

(20,165 posts)
61. K&R
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:36 PM
Oct 2024

And I wish I could rec your post much more than once. Thank you for taking the time to lay it out in common language that even a Supreme Court Justice could understand.

GAJMac

(257 posts)
63. Someone at my job taught me the perfect retort
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:39 PM
Oct 2024

The perfect retort to men who have no understanding.

"It's not your body"

Period. I don't have a uterus, so I don't have a dog in that fight.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
68. I think women need medical professionals that take charge in these situations. And angry husbands.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:51 PM
Oct 2024

Doctors who are so weak as to worry about ramifications of performing D&Cs need to SCREAMED at by these husbands in the ER or Drs office. And I mean SCREAM!!!!
Something on the lines like “DO SOMETHING NOW!”
Women may not be in shape to advocate for themselves. They are counting on their men to step forward and give a concise medical history. If you have to LIE and say she has had a a 102* fever at home, then LIE.
There is no way a nurse who hasn’t actually examined the patient will argue with a Dr about a boggy and bleeding out woman. Well they may, but it’s their word against everyone else’s.
Besides I think most nurses are HORRIFIED about what Dobbs has done.
They would rather see a living patient any day.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
69. It makes no sense that anyone else should care what is happening in the patients life.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 04:53 PM
Oct 2024

It’s none of their business.

Kali

(56,600 posts)
70. um,
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 05:10 PM
Oct 2024

"during the first trimester a women’s blood volume is TRIPLED"

no, this is not correct. normal increase is less than 50% though it can be more. also the main increase is later.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
72. I stand corrected. The latest figures I just saw said 60% . We were taught tripled and I didn't recheck.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 05:23 PM
Oct 2024

Ms. Toad

(38,159 posts)
93. Might want to edit the OP.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 09:37 PM
Oct 2024

That number stood out to me, as well, so I double-checked my recollection. I scanned the replies to see if anyone caught it before I did - and apparently at least one did several hours ago.

It's a fantastic post - but in case people don't read through the replies it would be even better if the OP had the correct increase in blood volume.

B.See

(7,684 posts)
73. Dear op: It isn't a rant. It's plain old,
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 05:26 PM
Oct 2024

COMPASSIONATE, and factual COMMON SENSE - the likes of which the so-called 'pro lifers' the Trump SYCOPHANTS, and the maga 'anti-woke' 'cultural' warriors don't WANT to know

(whatever the fk 'woke' is supposed to mean to them. I believe it means knowledge as opposed to WILLFUL IGNORANCE).

As if women don't already go thru enough with a pregnancy, without these jackasses.

So thanks so much for the enlightenment.

wnylib

(25,355 posts)
75. People familiar with genealogy know what happened to women in the past
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 05:29 PM
Oct 2024

when modern pharmacology and safe surgical techniques did not exist.

One of my ggg-grandfathers was married 3 times. His first wife died giving birth to their 4th child. The baby lived. Relatives helped care for the baby and other children. He remarried 2 years after losing his wife. His second wife died within a year of their wedding, of complications in a miscarriage/early birth in her one and only pregnancy. The fetus/baby died, too. They are buried together in a family plot.

He married again 5 years later. His third wife was my ggg-grandmother. My gg-grandmother was her 5th child.

Walk through the old section (1600s through 1800s and early 1900s) of cemeteries and look at the dates of birth and death for the women. You will see many who died in their 20s and 30s. Some will be buried with infants whose death dates are the same as the mother. Dates in family plots will tell similar stories to my ggg-grandfather's wives.

That is the era that MAGAs want to return to.




FakeNoose

(40,093 posts)
80. K & R - this is an excellent post
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 06:34 PM
Oct 2024

Not only is access to a properly-administered D&C essential to saving a woman's life, it can also preserve a woman's fertility. Improper or nonexistent prenatal care can lead to a woman's inability to ever bear children in the future.

Is that what the Repukes want when they ban abortions? I don't think so.

flying_wahini

(8,247 posts)
82. I don't think most Republicans consider this kind of care an 'Abortion'. They consider it birth control.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 07:05 PM
Oct 2024

And that’s the problem.
I feel so bad for these people who trust their Drs and get screwed around or killed because of it.

I think all MEN and women need to speak up about it. They are stuck in the 50’s.

IbogaProject

(5,586 posts)
84. Lifetime maternal death rate used to be 50%
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 07:31 PM
Oct 2024

Almost half of women would die at some time during their child bearing years as recently as 120 years ago as far as I've heard from these situations.

bdamomma

(69,150 posts)
86. This coming from a nurse
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 07:41 PM
Oct 2024

is something not to be taken lightly. These are the cold-hearted facts, and women are dying because the assault on women. This is 2024, not 1624.

This assault on women has to stop, they will pay for this decision when we get cast our votes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wendyb-NC

(4,601 posts)
87. Thank you, excellent post
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 07:53 PM
Oct 2024

This is a must read. Women's health is so important. Sometimes it's a matter of life or death.

hvn_nbr_2

(6,746 posts)
88. Your post raises one question for me
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 08:25 PM
Oct 2024

You said "abortion nationwide used to be available until 16 weeks. This was kind of the golden week when the heartbeat first starts."

Am I correct that this is referring to a real heartbeat, involving an organ and blood and stuff, and not the kind of "heartbeat" that "heartbeat laws" about abortion refer to? (I think they could more accurately be referred to as "cells emitting electrons" laws.)

philly_bob

(2,431 posts)
89. Thanks. Good job.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 08:41 PM
Oct 2024

Only part I misunderstood was "pregnancy is vascular" because I didn't know what vascular meant

mdbl

(8,063 posts)
92. Good explanation.
Sun Oct 6, 2024, 09:11 PM
Oct 2024

These moron legislators in dumb states that passed these draconian laws are too stupid to find out that a miscarriage where the fetus won't expel and has to be removed is also clinically called an abortion, even though it's dead - but they're too dumb and lazy to find this out.

mucholderthandirt

(1,749 posts)
96. The thing that gets me is, these MAGA crazies want women to die because they couldn't sustain a pregnancy.
Mon Oct 7, 2024, 06:16 AM
Oct 2024

Our only purpose is to drop babies and take care of our man. That's it. No job, no career, no calling for the greater good. Leave Daddy's house, be the husband's "help meet", be available for him at any time, what we want doesn't matter, have many, many babies.

Oh, wait, that's for white women. For everyone else, no more babies. No mixed babies, no brown, black, red or yellow babies. Only good, white, Christian women are supposed to be making babies. Got to get rid of the "mud people", right?

I once scared a coworker half to death when I reminded her that science says we all are descended from a little brown female hominid in Africa, called "Mitochondrial Eve". We came from apes that stepped down from the trees, on the plains of Africa. Everything else is mutations or adaptations. Biblical Eve wasn't made from Adam's rib, that's a fairy tale.

KT2000

(21,928 posts)
102. Labor and delivery nurse friend
Mon Oct 7, 2024, 12:30 PM
Oct 2024

She is retired now but every so often she brings up the fact that women bleed out. It haunts her. I am grateful you have written this and I will share it with others.

lostnfound

(17,387 posts)
105. Fantastic post. You put several points into context
Tue Oct 8, 2024, 03:39 AM
Oct 2024

Having gone through childbirth and also reading a lot, I knew most of these things but you connected some dots.

Does it make any sense to ban abortion under 12 weeks, when the embryo is less than an ounce? Absurd.
Does it make any sense to ban them over 20 weeks, when almost all abortions are caused by a medical crisis? Deadly.
Does it make sense to ban them in between, just so government can exercise control over women’s bodies during that in-between time, at the cost of unacceptable intrusions into health privacy and intimate suffering? Misogyny and arrogance.

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