I think Biden may need a "back-up" plan...?

[kentuck]

...for after the election on November 5th.

As sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, Trump will not accept any result except victory. He will do everything in his means to disrupt and stop the political machinery of this nation. He will not accept defeat.

He will attempt to divide and tear down the election results as rigged against him and his supporters. He will encourage violence. He might even suggest assassination?

What should Joe Biden be prepared to do if Trump loses?

Do you agree that he should have a contingency plan in place?

[dalton99a]

1. Insurrectionists should be met with overwhelming force - without delay or hesitation

[Think. Again.]

66. I agree, I hope this time the doj is paying attention.

[chicoescuela]

77. Ha

[Dem4life1234]

75. I agree!

They were way too coddled that last time.

[Midnight Writer]

2. My bet is that Biden has plans in place. This White House is staffed with professional, competent people.

[LakeArenal]

30. No kidding. They probably had a plan since Feb 2020

I don’t know why anyone would think they don’t.

Major thought… traitors won’t be able to sucker punch police like they did before.

My plan is shoot when you see the whites of their eyes.

[Trueblue1968]

37. This time if there is a violent attack on our nations capitol, it will be shoot first, ask questions later.

Shoot to kill.

[kentuck]

43. I would doubt that there would be any violence in our nations Capitol...

The violence is more apt to happen at different state Capitols, in my opinion. There will be some that might try to exert force on different legislatures and various legislators. I would look for violence from states with strong militias, such as Arizona, Michigan, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Wyoming, Colorado, Minnesota, and a few others.

[LakeArenal]

44. Then it's already divided to conquer.

I think they are cowards. They need a mob to find motivation.

[comradebillyboy]

61. I don't think those Gravy Seals et al come anywhere

close to being strong militias. Undisciplined, unfit and incompetent just ain't going to get the job done. Being a veteran of the real US military I look at the militias with unreserved contempt.

[kentuck]

64. The Proud Boys and others did a lot of damage on January 6th...

There is strength in numbers and they showed it.

But they would never have gathered in Washington in those numbers if they had not gotten an invite from you-know-who. He requested that they be there on that day at that time. It was not a spontaneous event.

[comradebillyboy]

65. And the PB leaders are all in jail serving long sentences.

[Think. Again.]

67. The ones who were leaders at that time are, yes. Do we even know who the new leaders are?

[DFW]

90. This can't be overemphasized

Last edited Sun Oct 27, 2024, 06:36 PM - Edit history (1)

On January 6th, 2021, the insurrectionists acted with the approval, and, conceivably, with the coordination of the regime still in place. This time, they will be acting in direct opposition to the regime in place, as well against a nation that knows in advance this time that it could be coming.

If they try and fail this time, there won't be many 6 month sentences, but rather a lot of 15 years to life sentences. If they try to storm the Capitol this time, they had better remember Richard Crenna's line from the first Rambo movie: "Just remember to bring one thing." (What's that?) "A good supply of body bags." Law enforcement will not be as tolerant of a frenzied mob busting into the Capitol again.

[kentuck]

94. Well said, DFW!

The last time they were acting in collusion with the regime in place.

[wnylib]

117. Those militias are composed of former military like yourself

as well as present military and former and present law enforcement. They are well armed. They train on a regular basis. They have strategies that include guerrilla warfare. I would not underestimate the amount of damage that they can do.

In the end, I believe that we would defeat them. But there would be a lot of loss of life and destruction of infrastructure in the process. Possibly some foreign interference on behalf of the coup plotters.

But their priority is to use courts, state legislatures, and Congress to take over the institutions of government. Military force is back up for them to put down opposition and protests.

[NickB79]

110. Look to the Irish Troubles IMO

No outright militia attacks on the police and military, but lots of small-scale terrorism against soft targets.

My biggest worry is a bunch of yahoos simultaneously shooting up power transformers and crashing power to multiple cities at once.

[TwilightZone]

3. No.

Joe Biden has been around the block, and I'm sure he and his staff are prepared to deal with what everyone already knows is likely to occur.

It's not going to be a surprise to anyone, so I'm sure they have it covered.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. You are correct. For example, officials have been rigorously & publicly preparing for J6 2025. . . . nt

[travelingthrulife]

4. I expect they do. Neither Biden or Harris would ignore this.

She didn't get to be California AG by sitting on her hands.

[niyad]

5. Do you seriously think he doesn't?

[kentuck]

11. I'm not sure.

I would hope he and his staff are in contact with various Governors in case there is any violence. The Governors should be prepared to deploy their National Guard. Trump has nothing to lose.

[niyad]

33. Could you please explain your uncertainty to me, because I truly do NOT

understand. Do you think Gov. Polis and his staff, for our local example, need to be told what to do? As I said, I truly do not understand.

[kentuck]

39. I do not have the confidence that you seem to have...

I think a lot of Democrats think it will be the end of Trump and MAGA if Kamala wins. I think a lot of people think that it will be just another election and everything will go much smoother this time around. I do not necessarily believe that. In fact, I fear for the next nine days for what might happen?

[niyad]

45. I see that you switched from Biden to citizens as your explanation for your

uncertainty. That is not an answer to my question, so I will ask again, WHY do you have such uncertainty about what PRESIDENT BIDEN and his administration are doing, or not doing?

[kentuck]

47. I would include Biden with the majority of "citizens".

I would certainly hope he is prepared, but I would not assume it as a fact.

[niyad]

56. Wow. Lumping President Biden in with the average citizen does NOT

answer the question. Again, this is very concerning.

[kentuck]

68. Why is that concerning?

That Joe Biden be considered an "average citizen"? That he is somehow superior to everyone else? No, I don't think he is.

[TwilightZone]

84. Biden is not even remotely an average citizen.

There are myriad actions that a president can make that an average citizen cannot. An average citizen does not have a SS protection detail, though some other not-average-citizens do. There are lots of other ways that they are not equivalent.

Any assertion that there is no difference would be silly.

[Disaffected]

71. What a dumb thing to get worked up about.

Surely there are more pressing matters to be debated.

And why do you think the OP is obligated to respond to your jibes anyhow?

[niyad]

107. Nobody said that the OP is obligated to, but you will notice that the OP is

responding, just not to the questions (not, "jibes", as you so colourfully named them). It is interesting that, at least according to your post, you find that implying, very nearly stating, that President Biden and his administration are not prepared for, are not paying attention to, the very serious threat of violence is a "dumb thing to get worked up about". I will certainly bear that in mind.

[Disaffected]

111. "implying", "very nearly stating"??

Your comprehension of the English language is certainly different than mine (and the OP's I would imagine).

Why not try applying a little benefit of the doubt (if you had any at all that is) next time?

[Metaphorical]

115. Can we stop this thread?

It's like watching my children bicker about whose fault it was that the cat got out.

[Ocelot II]

6. I have no doubt that he has one.

[LakeArenal]

31. Congrats on your milestone recently.

Did you join as a teenager???

[Ocelot II]

55. Thanks!

No, I wasn't a teenager; I was already old when I joined. Now I'm just that much older.

[niyad]

35. Happy 21st DUnniversary. And only 82 posts til your 120,000 post milestone!

6 pm local tonight, yes?

[Ocelot II]

52. Thanks! I don't think I can come up with 82 posts by tonight, though!

[niyad]

57. You are most welcome. Okay, by the end of the week?

[Ocelot II]

60. I'll see what I can do. I can probably find plenty of cat memes.

[niyad]

62. Excellent!!! Goddess knows, we can never have too many cat memes!!!

[misanthrope]

7. I expect they have been prepping for a while

No one is underestimating Trump now.

[H2O Man]

28. Right.

[Dennis Donovan]

8. I'm sure there already is a plan in place.

It's just not been publicized. More will be known as the threat level increases.

[Rebl2]

93. I am

sure they have been working on a plan for a couple years-or more. They certainly are not going to wait until the last minute to make plans.

[Srkdqltr]

9. Do.you really think Biden and his people haven't thought about this?

Should they broadcast their plan so Trumps people can go around? Seriously?
Maybe they should just tell you?

[Fiendish Thingy]

10. Contingency plans are already in place:

https://protectdemocracy.org/work/understanding-the-electoral-count-reform-act-of-2022/

https://www.citizensforethics.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/ElectionCertificationUnderThreat-2.pdf

In addition, Marc Elias of Democracy Docket is now working for the Harris campaign.

Lastly, Biden is CIC of the National Guard until January 20.

Acknowledging that SCOTUS could be a wild card (but also acknowledging the fact that this same SCOTUS, minus KBJ, declined to rescue Trump in 2020 by using one of his flimsy electoral fraud cases as a pretext to installing him for a second term), what else do you think Biden could/should do, and in response to what specifically?

Sometimes anxiety causes us to spiral into overthinking things, especially if we have gaps in knowledge about what is already being done.

Hopefully you find the info helpful and reassuring.

[kentuck]

18. I would be surprised if there was no violence.

We just do not know the degree that it might happen?

[Fiendish Thingy]

72. Well, only one side has an Air Force, Navy, and nukes. Nt

[Think. Again.]

74. The military can not be used against American citizens.

[Fiendish Thingy]

81. They can be used to put down an insurrection

See the Insurrection Act.

Also, see Kent State, Watts riots, the Bonus Army massacre, and so many other specific examples.

Posse Comitatus has its limitations.

[Think. Again.]

88. The National Guard is the 'militia', not the 'military'.

[Fiendish Thingy]

89. Tell that to all the NG units that went to Iraq and Afghanistan.

The National Guard is part of the military, period.

The insurrection act allows the military to be used to put down an insurrection and to restore order.

[Think. Again.]

91. The examples you listed used the Guard, not any of the 5 branches of the military...

Well, 6 now if you count the "Space Force".

The National Guard is not one of them, although it can be "Federalized" when needed.

[Fiendish Thingy]

101. No militia served in Iraq

They were NG, on active duty, attached to military units (mostly army).

[Think. Again.]

102. What is now called the National Guard started as State Militia.

...this is very well documented in the 2nd amendment.

[Fiendish Thingy]

104. JFC, Google is your friend:

https://nationalguard.com/guard-faqs#

(aka Army National Guard)

The National Guard is a unique element of the U.S. military that serves both community and country. The Guard responds to domestic emergencies, overseas combat missions, counterdrug efforts, reconstruction missions and more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(United_States)

The National Guard is a state-based military force that becomes part of the U.S. military's reserve components of the U.S. Army and the U.S. Air Force when activated for federal missions.[1] It is a military reserve force composed of National Guard military members or units of each state and the territories
(Snip)

All members of the National Guard are also members of the organized militia of the United States as defined by 10 U.S.C. § 246. National Guard units are under the dual control of state governments and the federal government.[1]

The NG is part of the military, and can be used to put down insurrections and maintain order, among other things.

[Think. Again.]

106. Yes, as I mentioned earlier, the NG can be federalized to become part of the military....

Oh, I'll let your own post explain it...

"... The National Guard is a state-based military force that becomes part of the U.S. military's reserve components of the U.S. Army and the U.S. Air Force when activated for federal missions. "

And, as I also mentioned earlier...

"All members of the National Guard are also members of the organized militia of the United States"

(You needed google to find that out?)

[Fiendish Thingy]

108. This all started when you said the military can't be used against US citizens

When in fact it can, either in the form of the NG, or active duty divisions deployed under the Insurrection act.

[Think. Again.]

112. I didn't know about the insurrection act, but the NG can be used when it is NOT part of the military.

[usonian]

12. The "fix was in" on January 6th. At EVERY level of government. And they still failed.

It won't take 4 GD years to round up the morans.

It's a damn wonder that they weren't all given juice boxes as they departed the scene of the crime.

[TwilightZone]

19. They weren't prepared and didn't have enough resources onsite to process 2,000+ people

That's been well established since January 6th.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2023/0106/Jan.-6-was-a-security-failure.-Have-the-problems-been-fixed

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/29/capitol-police-documents-unprepared-jan-6-riots-517478

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-police-reject-federal-help-9c39a4ddef0ab60a48828a07e4d03380

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/capitol-police-didn-t-act-warnings-trump-backers-would-breach-n1269888

Etc., ad infinitum.

[Hotler]

13. Garland. ... nt

[comradebillyboy]

63. Garland won't be involved. Garland doesn't control

the National Guard or local police agencies. He also won't be the AG after Jan 20.

[Think. Again.]

76. I agree that garland would again refuse to be involved.

[Bev54]

15. I am pretty sure Biden, Harris and all those

In the know have plans.

[brush]

16. Ironically, thanks to trump's SCOTUS 6, Joe Biden will have all that he needs for his 'official acts' as he'll still be.

president on Nov. 5, 6th, 7th and so on and will have immunity to do whatever he feels is needed to restore order from any insurrection type disturbances that trump's maga ts might attempt.

Joe knows that and will do the right thing.

[bucolic_frolic]

17. Official acts are immune.

Protecting the State is an official act.

[Cartoonist]

20. Arrest him immediately

If Trump declares victory

[Ms. Toad]

32. So we should be the party that represses political speech?

Just like concessions, declarations of victory are just speech. They carry zero legal weight.

[TeslaNova]

42. Inciting violence should never be regarded as political speech

Nor should speech intended on overthrowing the US Govt.

[Ms. Toad]

50. A declaration that he won is no more inciting violence

Than is a refusal to concede.

[Metaphorical]

70. It is his right to refuse to concede

It is not his right to incite violence should he be found conclusively to have lost, or for him to obstruct the process of discovery about whether he lost or not. This is why results are certified at the state level in December.

Part of being in a democracy is the expectation of a reasonable and graceful loss should you lose, after due diligence in determining the results of an election. Both of these have been repeatedly abused by the GOP for years now as they've become more and more extreme. The violence is there both to stall the process and to intimidate, and neither of these things SHOULD be acceptable.

[Ms. Toad]

97. It is also his right to declare he won.

Or that the moon is made of blue cheese.

A declaration that he won (even if he has been conclusively found to have lost) without more, is not inciting violence. That is different from saying we're marching on the capital, and I'm marching with you, while it is in session, after everything that led up to it is far more than a declaration that he on.

And while graceful acceptance of a loss should be ideal, it is not constitutionally required. We should not advocate abridging constitutional rights because someone refuses to follow a social convention.

[Metaphorical]

116. Yes, my point exactly

Elections can be tight. The loser of the election, if it is reasonably close (and there are varying definitions of reasonably here) can request a recount. This is often triggered automatically when the margin is small (it varies, but usually under 0.5% depending on the state). Outside of that, a candidate can also request a recount if they pay for it, but that can get to be quite expensive.

Trump actively subverted this, not just after 01/06 but throughout the period leading up to it and past the point of certification. What makes Jan 6 so difficult to prosecute is that the bar for treason is very high in the United States (though admittedly, he's pole vaulted most definitions). and the fact that many in Congress actively aided him in his attempt (and the Senate effectively blocked any actual punishment). What I was saying earlier is that there is a mechanism for verifying an election that the loser can chose to pursue, but that, failing that, the assumption is that this is the end of the process for the loser.

Trump's greatest weapon is that he understand privilege (literally private law) intimately, and there are enough people like him that see in his adoption of such private law a way to escape justice for their own criminal actions.

[Think. Again.]

73. A lie intended to signal others to commit violence can be a simple as saying "I won".

[Ms. Toad]

95. Legally, no. n/t

[Think. Again.]

96. Well, I doubt he'll spell it out in legal terms for anybody.

[Ms. Toad]

98. If all he does is declare he won,

he is within his constitutional rights and we should not be advocating abridging those rights.

In the past he has done considerably more - probably even rising to the level of inciting riot.

[Think. Again.]

99. He's very good at using his dogwhistles.

[kentuck]

21. These certainly are not ordinary times...

..and it would only be wise to prepare for something other than an ordinary election.

[niyad]

46. Once again, WHY are you so convinced that THIS administration is NOT

prepared? Seriously, this is very concerning.

[kentuck]

51. Why would you assume that they are prepared?

When he was not prepared for his last debate with Trump? I understand that any plans would not be made public, but the machinations of government are like a big ship in the ocean - it takes a long time to turn it around. Thanks for keeping the discussion alive.

[Ocelot II]

59. You must not have been paying attention to Mark Elias and his legions of lawyers,

who are now working for the Harris campaign and are well-prepared for the GOP's bogus election interference lawsuits. And to suggest that Biden's poor debate performance has any relationship whatsoever to whether the government - not Biden personally, since that's not his job - is unprepared for another insurrection attempt, is a pretty attenuated claim, to put it charitably. Anyhow, Biden wasn't unprepared for the debate; if anything, he was overprepared with too much detail, tired and ill, and couldn't keep up with Trump's firehose of lies. Regardless, the preparation for whatever the insurrectionists try this time is up to law enforcement and security agencies to prepare for and deal with. Biden does not personally manage those duties.

[Hope22]

85. Oh this is harsh.

If you watch the debate a second time you will see that Biden did answer the questions and trump did not. I found watching it again without my initial nervousness was worth the time. Ignoring the media / Dem talking heads undermining Biden prior to Harris stepping into the race I think we can have confidence that the President, Vice President and the people who support them have discussed protocol for November 5th through January 2025 and are prepared. They have had four years to get the plan together. What we don’t know about is the damage that will happen out in the states. My fear is the local militias creating mayhem with smaller scale attacks throughout the country. I think that is a real possibility. The fact that we have a large number of MAGA police and military folks out here is a real concern. There is no shortage of guns and bomb making material amongst the people. I don’t think my governor would step in to stop such attacks. Hang on tight friend and we will get through this. It’s a wonder we all aren’t complete zombies by now!💗

[spanone]

22. I assume that the Biden et al have been planning on it.

[Quixote1818]

23. I would imagine they are going to be well prepared for this. nt

[greatauntoftriplets]

25. I wouldn't expect President Biden to share any plans with the world.

[totodeinhere]

26. He should have a plan for if Trump either wins or loses.

If he wins, God forbid, the Insurrectionist Clause needs to be invoked to keep him out of power. The election would need to be found invalid and a new election would need to be held with Trump ineligible to run. There would be time before January 20th for another election

[bucolic_frolic]

54. Yes, those tools are in 14A and were used during Reconstruction by Pres. Grant

as well as the Senate, House, and U.S. Army of Occupation at times. Winning candidates were refused to be seated in Congress, removed from ballots, votes ineligible or eligible by voice vote or head count. Of course SCOTUS now will mince the Constitution into word salad.

We can't seem to get a grip on how to defend our nation's sovereignty.

[soandso]

92. "If he wins"

How could that be framed as insurrection? Your post is a good one in that this is also something that should be considered ("if he wins&quot . What you said indicates absolute refusal to accept that possibility so what would that look like - another January 6, endless lawsuits, both or what? These fucking polls seem to point at a 50/50 chance for either side. I generally avoid looking at them because it just builds anxiety.

[Lonestarblue]

27. I think it's governors in swing states who are already planning for Trump chaos

I cannot imagine that Governor Whitmer of Michigan does not have a plan. Or Governor Shapiro in Pennsylvania, Governor Hobbs in Arizona, Governor Evers in Wisconsin, Governor Cooper in North Carolina. All are Democrats and have seen what Trump’s goons did on January 6. They will have the National Guard on alert.

Even though he’s a Republican, I suspect that Governor Kemp would not sit back and allow the MAGA cult members to ransack his state. If a miracle happens and Trump loses Florida, I have no clue what DeSantis would do because he is an idiot.

[Think. Again.]

78. Yes, republican Governors are my concern right now, too.

[MrWowWow]

29. Establish a Perimeter

Last edited Mon Oct 28, 2024, 09:06 AM - Edit history (2)

With armored vehicles and razor wire. Arrest trump and eLoon on suspicion of inciting an insurrection. Hold them in jail for 48 hrs. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

.
FYI:

In the United States, police can typically hold a suspect for up to 48 hours before they must either charge them with a crime or release them. However, this period can vary depending on state laws and the circumstances of the case, such as weekends, holidays, or the need for a warrant. In some cases, federal authorities may hold suspects longer, but usually only with judicial approval.

-ChatGPT

[Ms. Toad]

34. On what basis?

Our laws don't permit preemptive arrests.

Seriously, some of the stuff posted here scares me as much as it does when it is suggested by Trump followers.

[TwilightZone]

38. It can be eerily similar.

It's also ramped up significantly of late.

There have been threads calling for Biden to not relinquish power if Harris loses and involve the military if needed. The irony of that was seemingly lost on the posters.

I understand anxiety, but becoming that which we abhor is not the answer.

[Klarkashton]

40. "official act" it would take years to sort out, in the meantime

He's in the can.

[Ms. Toad]

48. Whoosh.

In case you don't recognize it, that is the sound of the point flying over your head

Advocating lawless behavior (the violation of a person's constitutional right) in pursuit I of a political goal is not a Democratic value, and it is just as wrong (and terrifying) when we do it as when Trump does.

I'm case you are truly not aware, the Supreme Court did not make unlawful acts carried out by the president lawful. It simply removed the threat of punishment for violating the law. It also did not remove remedies for those whose rights are violated by the president.

In general, an arrest is unlawful if there is not probable cause that a crime has been committed, and that the person being arrested committed it. So advocating a preemptive arrest is pretty much the definition of an unlawful act. So, again, what is the basis for arresting Trump (not for giving Biden a get out of jail free card).

[Klarkashton]

79. Unlawful official acts ... It's a dilemma.

[RedSpartan]

36. Trump is going to declare victory around 9pm Eastern on election day

and say now we have to stop them from stealing it again.

Biden/Harris/Dems know this, and are prepared.

[dalton99a]

41. +1. And his minions at the state level will spring into action

[misanthrope]

49. The Trump camp will aim for bedlam

and try to have the decision made in the House.

[kentuck]

53. I think you may be right?

I think their plans have already been discussed and finalized.

[misanthrope]

58. Essentially, he is an agent of chaos

That is his forte, breaking things.

[Abstractartist]

69. It's there

In my humble opinion….There is ZERO chances the government of the US does not have backup plan for what may come about. I’ll be positive and say May come about, because I feel confident in the blue wave. I also think the blue wave will be a deterrent to some true GOPers to jump on any insurrection bandwagon.

[Rocknation]

80. Biden remains president until the winner of the 2024 election is properly installed

and worst case scenario, he invokes the 25th amendment and properly installs HIS vice president!


Rocknation

[kentuck]

82. That is an interesting thought...

...install the right winner of the election with the 25th Amendment.

[TwilightZone]

83. That's not how it works.

The winner of the election would take over on the 20th, regardless of what Biden does or doesn't do.

[kentuck]

87. Assuming everyone plays by the rules...

Which, as we now know, they do not.

[TwilightZone]

103. The poster was talking about Biden and Harris, not Trump.

Are you suggesting that Biden doesn't play by the rules?

[Runningdawg]

86. Win or lose, we are about to discover where the loyalties of our law enforcement, judicial officials and military lie.

[bucolic_frolic]

113. In the Russian Revolution, the Kerensky government fell when

the military outposts fighting WWI sided with the Bolsheviks, and the White Russians (conservatives - Cossacks and business) wanted to reestablish Czarist rule. So the political middle, the Provisional Government, as well as the later Russian Republic, did not have the muscle behind their authority. When you don't have LE and the military, you lose your government.

[Sparkly]

100. I agree there is a danger, because all of the other institutional boundaries have failed.

On the "He couldn't do anything" side, we have the WH and the Senate as barriers.

On the "He could still be a bull in the china shop" side, he has the filibuster-proof 60 in the Senate, the majority in the House, and the (not-impartial) Judiciary. (And of course, he has his foreign - ahem - "investors" pulling strings and playing mind games on weak Americans.)

If it came down to a tie, I believe the House would vote him in.

If Harris wins, I don't think he'll be able to rally the same kind of protest he did before, and I do think law enforcement will be prepared. His game then will be about a) avoiding his lawsuits and b) capitalizing in any way possible from his loss.

(It could even involve leaving for a trip overseas and claiming a difficult time getting back! "Help! Biden/Harris have captured me! Send money! It'd be a shame if I couldn't get back in time for my trials!!)

[DemonGoddess]

105. I think he's already

thought this out, and HAS a plan.

[WmChris]

109. Supreme court

Biden can handle it any he wants he got total immunity for official acts. Putting down an insurrection or dealing with election fraud seems pretty official to me.

[Jack Valentino]

114. If President Biden determines that national guard units must be activated,

with live ammunition, I'm with him.